14 - Gilly Charters - A Quaker Life of Peace, Purpose and Quiet Courage

In this episode, I sit down with the wonderful Gilly Charters - someone deeply rooted in her local community and even more deeply rooted in her Quaker faith. Gilly has been a teacher, a probation officer, a volunteer with mental health charities, a musician, and a proud grandmother. She’s also stood as a Green Party candidate, bringing her values of integrity, peace, and environmental care into the public space.

Together we explore what it really means to live as a Quaker - not just on Sundays, but every day. Gilly shares the story of how she first encountered Quaker silence as a child, what the "inner light" means to her, and how silence, simplicity, and kindness have shaped her life’s path.

We also talk about justice, music, activism, and how her spiritual journey has supported her work with vulnerable communities. This is a conversation about stillness, strength, and how living your values quietly can echo far and wide.

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Transcript

Hello and welcome. Today I'm truly happy to be chatting with someone I've known and admired for quite a few years, the fabulous Gilly Charters. Gilly's lived in the Harrogate and Knaresborough area for over 40 years and she is deeply rooted in the local community.

She's been a teacher, a probation officer and she used to work part-time supporting parents at a special school near Thirsk. She's also a volunteer with a local mental health charity, active in Harrogate Quakers, a musician and a very proud granny. Gilly was selected as the Green Party candidate for Stray, Woodlands and Hookstone, continuing her long-standing commitment to social justice and care for the environment. 

Today though I wanted to talk to her about something that runs right through all of that, her Quaker faith. We'll chat about what drew her to it, how it influences her life and relationships, the role of silence in worship and what it really means to live by peace and integrity in today's world. So welcome Gilly. 

Thank you so much Kay. And so could you just share a little bit about what first drew you to the Quakers? Yes, I grew up in a completely non-religious household. My father never had any type of faith.

He was a very good man, but no faith. And my mother had been married in the Church of England and then things had gone badly wrong. I think she always regarded anything to do with church very dubiously after that. 

But my brother and I were interested in matters of faith and when we were, I don't know, certainly at primary school, we joined the local church choir and church music is just a joy and I love it very much indeed. But we sort of grew out of that and stopped going. And then one Sunday, the two of us, my brother and I, age probably, I don't know, 12 and 10, something like that, walked to find another church. 

We were going to find the Christian scientists, but we hadn't left enough time to walk there. And at half past 10, we were walking past Isha Quaker Meeting House. So we pushed open the door and we went in. 

And it was amazing because we were actually a bit late and so people were already settled into worship. So we walked as quite young people into a silent meeting. And that silence actually had a real impact on me.

And then afterwards, the meeting was so welcoming. Here were we, two children just dropped in off the road and we were hugely welcomed. And throughout my teenage years, there's a lot of what we now call link groups. 

So teenagers from all over southwest London, meeting up together and learning about other faiths like Judaism and Islam. So much so my father, of course, said, don't they want you to be a Quaker? Because I'd come back from these weekends. But how embracing. 

So all faiths were presented. Oh gosh. Yeah. 

And it's only in retrospect that I realised just how special that was. But it did give me some understanding of other faiths and I just loved it very much. Everything about Quakers during my teenage years was very special to me. 

But then of course, I went to university and Sunday mornings ceased to exist. Don't know what happened to them, but they weren't there anymore. So I didn't have anything more to do with them, with any religion at all. 

I didn't go anywhere. I joined a choir, but I didn't go to anything that informed my faith journey. And then I was pregnant with my first daughter or my first child. 

And I suddenly thought, I'm going to have a child and I'm not going to have any structure for her to grow up in at all. And so I was obviously looking back at my own childhood and thinking, there are better ways of doing this than my parents did. And so about seven or eight months pregnant, I went to Harrogate Quakers because we were by then living in Harrogate. 

And again, the welcome was just overwhelming is the wrong word because that implies you might have gone, this is too much. But it was just really genuine, really heartfelt. It wasn't just that I was a pregnant woman. 

It was, you're somebody and we'd like you to feel at home with us. You think that's why it's called sort of friends meeting house. It's a beautiful form of friendship.

Well, I think that's certainly a modern way of looking at it. Yes. At the time that the Quakers were first properly named, they were the Religious Society of Friends of Truth.

And that's where the friends bit came from. And Quakers was a nickname, of course, a pejorative nickname, which we went, I think we'll have that one. Thank you very much.

But yes, there's no doubt that welcome is a really important bit as it is of most world religions. Yes. Really, really important. 

Yeah. I mean, my first recollection of coming across Quakers was actually through Dad's Army. I didn't know anybody who was a Quaker, but my childhood was very much in the military and boarding school. 

So it was all sort of CV. And Private Godfrey in Dad's Army had refused to fight in the Second World War, but he'd been an ambulance bearer, so like a stretcher bearer. And I just found that so extraordinary because the hostility he received when they knew that he hadn't fought, sorry, in the First World War, because it was during the Second World War, was profound.

And it all dissolved completely once the platoon knew that in actual fact, he had done his bit just in a different way. And the way that he described it was that he couldn't kill any creature, you know, not a mouse, not a bee, not a fly. He couldn't kill them. 

It was too painful for him. And I just thought, my word, that's a rare being. Particularly at the time of the Second World War, when everybody was called to do their duty, but to find a way of doing that in a exemplary example, I think, of hanging on to your integrity and your belief.

But nobody knew about it until it had sort of come up in the backstory. Yeah. So in daily life, what does it really mean to live as a Quaker? I think for me, it's this sacredness of everything. 

So everything in life is sacred. And that to me, well, this thing about not killing people. It's everybody, everybody is important, they're unique, special, a child of God. 

And so those are the things that I particularly, I always hang on to. And that I don't have to be in Meeting for Worship on a Sunday to be worshipping. I feel it comes at all sorts of times. 

And I think this is quite a common human experience. You go somewhere that is special to you for some reason, or beautiful, or that takes your breath away. And we're all given to moments like that.

But for me, they are intimations of the divine. And I love it that I can be called into that sort of knowledge at any point. And that to me is really important.

So in other words, having a faith as a Quaker is not something you have, it's something that you are, integral to you, to your being? I suspect it is, yes. And we certainly, when we're talking to people about Quakers, we say it's not a Sunday religion. It is about the whole of life.

Yes, yeah. And how has that affected your relationships and your life? Well, I think it's made me choosy about relationships and about what I do with my talents and my time and my money. And so to me, being a teacher was an outward-facing bit of caring about other people. 

Absolutely. And the probation officer bit, that also was, I just feel that so many people are diminished by things to do with society as it is at the moment. And so I felt I could go in and change the system. 

And of course I couldn't, but it didn't matter. I did it for a bit. Well, I think you will affect it because everyone has an effect. 

In terms of being a probation officer then, were you dealing with young people, with male, female, or was it, did you sort of specialise in a way? It was nearly all adult men that I worked with. And the whole idea of the probation officer role was that you dealt with people who were deemed to be high risk in some way. And I found it really hard because you filled in a form and that gave you somebody's risk. 

And that actually didn't sit easily with me, but I'm well aware that I'm very easily taken in by people. So, it was probably just as well there was something a bit more demonstrable than me going, oh no, they're a lovely human being. Well, the thing is lovely human beings are affected by the environments that they're brought up in, by the people that they are surrounded by. 

And I've definitely seen evidence in my life of young men anyway, who have gone on to do better things with their life because of someone's belief in them or someone's efforts on their part. I think probably for probation officers, the sad thing is you'll only know if someone's gone on to a better life if they come back at you. But otherwise you wouldn't really know how you'd affected their lives. 

And it's not measurable. If they're getting on with their life, you won't see them again. But in your mind, I suppose you either won't see them again or they haven't got caught again. 

It's in it can go either way. So, I think it's such a powerful role to play in life because some people are in prison because they're vulnerable and very easily led or have mental health issues that lead to addictions. I'm not covering everybody with this at all because it's a very huge generalisation, but there is a certain element of people in prison who actually just need help.

To get out the mess they're in. You're so right. You're so right. 

Most people in prison, I think I can say this, have had a huge range of adverse childhood experiences. And we're only just beginning to learn the ongoing impact of trauma in childhood and how it alters the way that you see other people. People that you or I would probably look at and go, come and join us. 

Come over here. For people who've not experienced proper love and care and more likely actual abuse within their family, they see people as a threat. And they're fearful. 

And so, they behave in a way that we don't like. And I think as a society as a whole, as inequality increases, so people, even if they've not had really adverse childhoods, are going, why can't I have some of that? We see these hugely rich people driving very expensive cars. And for young men in some areas, being rich is seen as what you want to be. 

And how do you do that? Yeah. Yeah. I hear you entirely. 

But also, to some degree, during the pandemic, lots of youngsters were isolated in so many ways. Well, we were all isolated to some degree, weren't we? And the impact of that on young people's abilities and resilience to cope with life has definitely been impacted. So, it's not just an abusive childhood that can create a problem. 

It's one where they're isolated or neglect. It's much more complex, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. But I think what annoys me, I think angers is probably the correct word.

What angers me is that we recognise children at risk from conception. We know if a child is likely to not have the advantages in life that we think children should have. And the resources aren't put into helping people at that stage.

There's an awful lot of other things as well, because I heard a shocking statistic a couple of days ago that out of all of the primary schools in the Harrogate and Ayersborough area and surrounds, there are 1,100 primary school children below the poverty line. I think families are getting food from food banks. So, if they're not getting proper nutrition as they grow either, that becomes another factor as well, doesn't it? Absolutely. 

And not giving proper support to families is a political choice. And that's another thing that my Quaker faith has made me do. I think things need changing.

They do. And to have any government say, well, once you've got more than two children, we're not going to give you any money for the next children. Just think, in what universe could that be considered the right way forward? Yeah. 

So, let's talk a little bit about your aspirations for the Green Party, because I'm assuming your interest in environmental issues and ecology have come from being a Quaker as well. Yes, very much so. I think because of this, looking around all of us here, it's because of the beauty of the world and because of its fragility, we've got to look after it.

And there are lots of groups of people for whom making money, going back to making money, is the most important thing in their lives. And they will do that so that in the here and now, they have all the wealth they could possibly want. And that leaves the world a poorer place.

Yeah. And so, I felt I had to get involved with Green politics because there was no other party that was so serious about what was happening in the environment. So, I came across an old poster for when I stood as a Green Party candidate in the early 90s.

Right. Okay. I didn't realise it'd been so long ago.

Well, I didn't realise it was so long ago until I brought this out. And then, of course, my great guru was Arnold Warnickham, who at that point had just been elected to Harrogate Council as a Green councillor. And so, I felt there was something to work with.

And we weren't successful at the time, other than with Arnold. But it did show me that having your hand on the political tiller does make a difference. And amongst Greens, we often say having a Green in the room changes the conversation, because you'll have a conversation between councillors of all persuasions, and it will be to do with money and how we raise money and what we do for expedience. 

And the Green will say, how is that going to benefit the poorest people in the area? How is that going to give us open areas for our children to play in? How is that going to make the roads around schools safer? It asks questions in an entirely different way. So, it's a more holistic approach in terms of community and yes. Absolutely. 

Absolutely. And what I liked about our new leader, when I heard him speak at conference, I didn't get to the whole of his speech. I came in at the point where he was saying, I come from a Jewish family. 

I was brought up in the area of Manchester where the awful atrocity happened on Yom Kippur. I know the people involved. My family started off in Latvia and we had to move because of pogroms. 

We moved to Ukraine, we had to move because of pogroms. We moved to Poland and we came across the Nazis. And he said, and then we came to the UK and we face antisemitism.

So, he understands that thread that's a really powerful thread. And I just found it really moving. He was speaking absolutely from the heart. 

There was none of this, what should I say to make sure I've got the political zeitgeist? It was, this is who I am and this is why I am the way I am. So, it was lovely to hear that. And I cried a lot. 

And he ended his speech with the most lovely thing about how he'd visited a programme that looks after people when they come out of prison. It's called the Dusty Knuckle. And these men arrive fresh out of prison and they'd been met once in prison by someone from the project. 

But they're all really worried. And one chap arrived late because he didn't know about public transport because he'd been inside for so long. And someone had bothered to make him a cup of tea because they knew, they knew he would be feeling all churned up and all, oh, no one will want me. 

I've blown it yet again. And there was someone waiting for him to say, it's okay, sit down. Let's have a cup of tea. 

We can catch up later. And so, Zach finished his speech with kindness is a really important thing. And I've always felt that. 

I agree. Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah. I totally agree. I once asked my father, who I thought was the wisest man, can still consider the wisest man I ever knew. 

What he thought were the three most important qualities to have in life. I can only remember two of them at this moment in time, but it will come back to me. But the first one was kindness. 

The second one was a sense of humour. Oh, and the third one was to be loving. Kindness, a sense of humour and to be loving. 

Because I know it doesn't always happen that what you give, you receive, but what you give sends out a vibration that other people will receive. And I think it's what you invite back into your heart. And a sense of humour is vital to keep a perspective on life. 

And to be loving is the best quality in the world anyway to have. Absolutely. Absolutely.

So, coming back to Private Godfrey, being a pacifist, all Quakers make a commitment towards pacifism. That's really interesting. Because although there are lots and lots of things that Quakers hold very dear, not all of them are absolutists in any way. 

And quite early on in my Quaker life in Harrogate, I went to a lovely talk where one man, well, both men had been born after they were required to sign on the dotted line and go into the army. But one man was saying that even with his Quaker principles, if he saw evil in action, he would feel he had to do something about it. And if his government felt that going into the army and fighting another group of people, he would do that. 

And the other person was coming from the, I couldn't do that myself. I would have to be an absolutist. But yes, it's certainly one of our testimonies. 

We have a very clear testimony to peace. And it is one of the more difficult ones, because people will say to me, so what would you do about Ukraine? And that is really, really hard. And all I can say to people who ask those questions is, we don't put enough effort, we don't put enough time into proper diplomacy. 

So much of what goes on at a macro level is doing one another down. It's trying to appear better than the next person. It's building, again, stoking fears, fuelling tensions, which could just as easily be, probably not just as easily because making war makes people money. 

And making peace doesn't make anyone money. But I feel that most situations in the world where there is war, there's either enormous inequality, there are tensions between different groups of people that aren't being addressed in an open hearted way, or there's greed. And all of those things can be tackled by proper listening to one another, which is something we just don't do enough of.

No. Someone once said to me, have you ever acknowledged that the word listen, spelled differently, is also silent? So let's just chat a bit about silence. I've only ever been to two Quaker meetings, and there was very little said at either. 

So I'm curious about that side of it. Silence obviously made an impression on me as a 12-year-old. So I think it's something that must be something that I felt I want. 

And in 1699, William Penn wrote, true silence is to the spirit what sleep is to the body, nourishment and refreshment. And I just love that. And there's all sorts of things about silence. 

One is that using words so often upsets people. I'm using words in one way, you're hearing them in another way. We end up at loggerheads when actually what's going on inside us may well be exactly the same thing. 

So I think worshipping in silence is really powerful. I think there's a living silence. To me, there's a silence where the people taking part in it are all engaged in the same process.

And in Quaker circles, we refer to it as centering down. And so we come into a meeting for worship, we're always enjoying to come with hearts and minds prepared. Or as some of my older Quaker female friends who say, hearts, minds and the Sunday lunch prepared.

But I think that hearts and minds prepared is an impossibility for most people. People come with their young families, people are keeping an eye on the clock because they're doing one thing that they go, oh my gosh, I'm going to be late. So actually a lot of people come into that beginning of meeting for worship all tense, they're worried about things, they've left things undone. 

There's 101 things going on in their minds. And centering down is this process of accepting that that's how our brains are. They do chit chat all the time.

And it's just allowing our bodies to settle down, our breathing to regularise, and then to just let the thoughts float through our heads, which of course is very like Buddhism. And meditation. And any sort of meditation. 

The thing that I think is different about a Quaker meeting for worship is that we've all come together to be with each other. And so I suppose it's that little bit in the Bible about when two or three are gathered together. And so we meet together because we find that that corporate silence actually does have something about it that's different from me sitting at home saying, oh, I'll join in with Quaker worship today. 

I can do it. It is possible. And of course, all through COVID, we did it online. 

But there is something magical about sitting together in silence with people, most of whom you know really well, and looking around and seeing who's there, who's not there, looking at the new people, welcoming people in as they come in late. Because we do. And actually all being aware that we are there to give thanks for the wonders of the world, that we are there each with our inner lights making a hole and allowing something greater than us to permeate into us. 

And if you can get a gathered meeting, it's really quite special. And we often only know that it's a gathered meeting because somebody will be moved to speak. And being moved to speak in a silent assembly is quite daunting. 

But people experience being propelled to their feet. They have a message. They are propelled to their feet. 

And they stand and they'll give whatever message it is. And afterwards, people will say, that's what I was thinking. That is going on for me. 

So it's almost like a fellowship where you're picking up the vibration of each other in community or feel held in community. Do you have prayers? We don't have formal prayers, but definitely some people would say they pray. And they may well use traditional sorts of words. 

I find myself praying at all sorts of moments. And again, sometimes I use quite traditional words. Often it's just a word as, oh God, help me.

Yeah. Okay. But in other times it is, thank you. 

Just thank you. And I mean, you don't actually have anyone who leads the service, do you, as in a vicar? Yes. It's a lovely... Quakers actually, I think still only exist still because George Fox put in place a lot of organisation. 

And so whereas the Ranters and the Diggers and the Muggletonians and so on had their moment and then died away, because Quakers had structures, particularly meeting up with each other in small groups and then in area groups. And then once a year down in London, all these people coming from all four corners to be together as the Lord expects us to be and to see one another's faces. That was considered a really important bit of yearly meeting. 

And we still do that now. So although it looks as if there's no leaders, actually we have people at Friends House in London who are prepared to make statements on behalf of Quakers. We have locally, I'm part of Harrogate Quaker meeting. 

We have people who do the business side of things. They gather us together for a meeting for worship for business. We have elders who are tasked with looking after the spiritual life of the meeting. 

We have pastoral friends whose job is to look after us. So there are lots of roles. The Rantelters, they're more naturally geared towards how quick for you.

But we only do them for a short period of time. So we have what's called a nominations committee and nominations meet and they consider gifts and talents. And then the names go to the business meeting. 

Would so-and-so, do we agree so-and-so should be a pastoral friend for three years starting from. And then at the end of the three years, people stand down. You can relinquish a role at any time. 

But the idea is that three years gives you a chance to find out what you're meant to be doing, to do it well, and then to start to pass it on to someone else. So very similar to Samaritan. Of course, we do things in three year rotation.

It's a good, well, there are lots of roles. I know in the services, you have a job for three years or two and a half to three years, and then you're moved on to bringing the fresh than you and get all vibrant and alive. And what about singing? Because you're original, originally when you were, well, 12 and 14, you were drawn in to the churches because you like to sing. 

Do you get to sing? No, no, I never get to sing as a Quaker. Well, hardly ever. Sometimes when we have some sort of training event, there'll be someone who will lead some singing.

But all my music making is outside Quakers. But I really do it with groups that I think any Quaker would want to join. Right, okay. 

And you referred earlier on to the inner light. And how do you understand it? Right, so a really interesting thing, whole books have been written about this. My understanding is that the inner light, which some people refer to as the inward light, is that of God in each person. 

And in Quakers, we have a lovely poster, which is designed for children, but I think it's very effective. And it shows people sitting in a Quaker meeting, people of all ages, and they all have a little candle or a little lantern or a torch where their heart is. And it is, it's just a lovely idea. 

And it is trying to show outwardly what we feel inwardly. Yeah, share compassion from the inside. Okay. 

What do you think is the most challenging thing you've found about being a Quaker? There's a variety of things that I find challenging. One is that as Quakers, there's a huge amount of work to be done with it to keep a meeting healthy. And that takes time and energy. 

And I often think, I'd rather not be doing this. And then I think, but how then can we expect people to come in and find a welcoming, loving community where the sorts of learning is offered and people feel, yes, this is my spiritual home. So, it's not a big thing, but every so often I think, oh, it'd be so lovely just to be able to come to a meeting for worship, settle down, and then after my cup of tea, go home.

To be honest, I think a lot of people would do that in a lot of faiths, turn up, attend and go home, but not actually participate in how it all comes about. Are there any other challenging aspects to it? Yes, there is. We're enjoying to live simply.

And I'm aware that I'm still a meat eater. And there's no way that industrial meat production can be allowed. It's not an acceptable thing.

And so, I'm quite interested that I'm still hung up on that one. And then of course, milk comes under the same category. Industrial keeping of dairy cattle is wicked. 

There's no other word for it. Yeah. One of my sons used to live and work in Botton Village, which is on the North York Moors. 

And for the village itself, they used milk from the cows locally, so they didn't have to pasteurise it. It was just for personal use. And he reckoned that he knew what the cows had been eating through the milk, whether it was clover or whatever. 

And he even got to the point where he thought, oh yes, this milk has come from Daisy today. So, because it becomes quite distinct rather than the bland milk that's been so homogenised. And yeah. 

Yeah, it's a fascinating tumble. I think if we all lived and worked in a way that Botton Village did, I could probably justify it more because to me, mixed farming is an ideal. It should be a closed circle type of production.

But it's not like that, is it? No, even my lovely organic milk from Darlington is not like that. No, but I think sometimes given the world in which we live, we just have to do the best we can. And we are human beings, you know, we're not meant to be robots. 

So, yeah. And what about what's been the greatest gift for you, belonging to the group of people who are entirely genuine in what they are seeking, how they're seeking it, how they want to bring other people in? And I'm trying to think if I've come across a Quaker who maybe go, I'm really surprised they're a Quaker. And I don't think I have. 

I think I've found people who find sacredness everywhere, who feel that we are human beings, not human doings, and treat each other in that way, which is, I think, hugely important. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. 

The Quakers that I've heard about, they've always made quite a mark on society. I mean, obviously, living in Yorkshire, Roundtree Trust at York, my lovely neighbour who passed away a few years ago, Ina, the most beautiful Ina, married a man who had been brought up in an orphanage. And he got some sort of sponsorship through the Roundtree Trust, and they paid for his education. 

And that gave him a platform that really elevated his life. He was always enormously grateful. And, you know, they've very involved in social reform and all of that. 

Historically, there's an awful lot of good that they've done, not just to the planet, but to humanity. Yes. And I suppose my only concern is that here we are in 2025, and we're still teaching our Quaker children about Elizabeth Fry, who worked two centuries ago. 

And I also think we have to be really careful not to whitewash what Quakers were doing. Because although, yes, there were Quaker abolitionists for slavery, there were a huge number of Quaker slave owners in the States. Huge numbers. 

Yes. Oh, right. Okay. 

And they made it very difficult for Quakers who were going, but all human beings are of equal value. Yeah. How can you be keeping these people in dreadful conditions and whipping them to make you rich? I had no idea that happened.

Yeah. Oh, my word. Okay. 

Yeah. So, people like John Woolman, who is a real hero of mine, again, living in the 18th century, he wouldn't wear dyed clothes because he said the dyes were made by slaves. He also felt it was wrong to wear black clothes because they hid the dirt, and that people should be honest about what they were like. 

He wouldn't travel by stagecoach because the horses were whipped, and that was wrong. He was just the most amazing man. He came to people's attention because he worked as a legal clerk, and he was at a man's deathbed.

And the man said, oh, and you better write in my will who I leave Jemima to. And John Woolman said, I cannot write who you leave another human being to. Goodness me. 

So, we're not whiter than white, if you can say that. I think there's quite a contested history that could be written about all sorts of things. And so, would you imagine, I don't know if you know, if the Quaker meetings in the States would be like the ones in the UK? Are there sort of variants? There are lots of different yearly meetings in the States. 

Lizzie would be the person to tell you about this because she actually went and spent some time studying a particular bit of Quakers in the States. And what I picked up from her was that they take their being together in faith hugely importantly. So, people would travel tens of miles certainly on a Sunday, and they'd get there really early, and they'd have pre-meeting learning, and then there'd be a meeting for worship. 

And then there'd be post-meeting learning well and food together and things like that. So, a whole day was spent on this. And something else just flitted through my mind then. 

Oh, also, a lot of Quaker meetings in the States are what are called programmed meetings. So, we as Quakers over here wouldn't recognise them because they're not silent. They have pastors, and they have a set timetable, and people come in, they sing a hymn, and then they listen to the pastor speak. 

So, very different altogether. Wow. And do you do Bible study together? We do some. 

There are people within Harrogate meeting, within all meetings, I think, for whom the Bible is a really important document. But most Quakers are interested in continuing revelation, the fact that as time goes on, so we have to read things more carefully and make sure that we really are understanding what it's telling us. Yes. 

Well, the Bible is open to interpretation like every other written word, I suppose. What's surprised you the most or gifted you the most, I suppose? Surprised? It may be that I'm still here with Quakers because I suppose I thought I'd found a home, but we change homes, don't we? We do. We do. 

We evolve differently, don't we? Yeah. And I've known lots of people who've been with us on their spiritual journey for a while and have then gone off somewhere else. So, maybe my spiritual journey's a bit sort of mono-tracked, but yes, I am still there.

Well, I mean, it started in earnest at a young age, really. I don't know many children of that age of the age that you and your brother were who would set out to find a church. I also, right now, cannot think of any child that I know who'd be prepared to sit in silence for any length of time. 

Silence is a complete anasthma. They were entertaining every minute of the day. We don't make our children sit in silence. 

No, I'm sure you don't. So, yeah, we're all on our own pathways of hope and faith. And as you say, we change and we reshape and reform, and that's part of the path. 

Is there anything else about Quakerism that you'd like to express that we haven't covered? Yes. I've twice, quite recently, had people say to me words along the lines of Quakers are good at looking at death, contemplating death, and I think that's a real gift because, because, and certainly I would say it's something I've received from Quakers, I think being able to talk with people about their hopes and fears is enormously important. I totally agree. 

I did a podcast quite a couple of months ago, maybe more, with Dave Billington from Full Circle, and in it I did mention that we put so much work into bringing each child into the world. Well, in the Western world we do, you know, antenatal classes and books written and so much care and attention, but it's almost as if we dismiss the end of life as something to be got out of the way, and there's very little preparation in the way that we meet it or even remotely prepare for it. And I think it serves us well to look at it and face it. 

I think it also, I speak for myself, has helped me to appreciate life more. MR. And that to me is why I'd like to encourage people to be more honest about we're all going to die. Not in a flippant way, not in a negative way, not in a morbid way, but as in our time here is finite, and doesn't that make everything we're doing now so much more special? MS. Yeah, and it matters how we behave, how we care for each other, the planet, it matters. 

Yeah. What wisdom from your faith would you most like to share with listeners? MR. Oh, let me tell you, let me tell you, I've got a little bit from George Fox, who I personally would not have liked to have met. You would have thought I was dreadfully wimpy about everything. 

George Fox was one of these men who, I didn't realise this, but in the 17th century, there was a time immediately after a sermon where anybody could get up and talk in church. George Fox used that to full advantage, basically to tell people that they were being led astray by this man in the pulpit, and didn't they realise they could have their own individual relationship with God, and it didn't need to be mediated by him. Now, you can imagine this wouldn't go down very much.

And he was often to be found tumbling down the steps of a church because strong men had picked him up and thrown him out. But he was an amazing man in all sorts of ways. He walked miles and up and down the country. 

But he said, I didn't put a date on this one, which is ridiculous, be patterns, be examples in all countries, places, islands, nations, wherever you come, that your carriage and life may preach among all sorts of people and to them, then you may come to walk cheerfully over the world, answering that of God in everyone. That's beautiful. So, yeah, live your faith and that's exactly what Quakers do.

We hope. We hope to the best of their ability at the time. Oh, wow. 

It's been fascinating. Honestly, it's so fascinating. I've wanted to know more for a long time, but it's also been particularly inspiring to hear how your Quaker faith has really underpinned everything that you do. 

From community service to environmental activism, the way you carry those values of peace, integrity, and also equality into daily life. And I thank you too, to everyone listening. I hope this conversation has given you a glimpse into the quiet strength and wisdom of the Quaker tradition and perhaps encouraged you to pause, listen inwardly and notice what light is waiting to be seen in your own life.

Until next time, may you find peace, stillness and connection in the everyday moments.