Eat Before You Train

This episode explores the impact of nutrition, specifically eating before kettlebell training, on workout performance and results. Jeremiah and Roger discuss energy systems, the effects of fasted training, and practical tips for optimizing performance.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to kettlebell training and episode overview

01:04 Understanding energy systems and their relevance to training

03:44 The importance of nutrition in maximizing workout results

04:51 Mythbusting: Fasted training and fat burning

05:46 The ATP-PC energy system and its role in high-intensity efforts

08:00 Glycolytic system and its impact on muscle fatigue

09:48 The aerobic system and its influence on endurance training

11:15 Glycogen storage and its significance for training energy

14:14 Risks of gluconeogenesis and muscle breakdown

15:44 Training attributes: strength, endurance, power, and their energy demands

18:28 Timing of nutrition for power and explosive training

21:11 Practical advice: eating before workouts and common pitfalls

23:51 High-intensity interval training (HIIT) and energy considerations

28:16 Maximizing performance: the role of pre-workout nutrition

31:29 Common misconceptions about eating and workout performance

34:43 Post-workout nutrition and recovery strategies

35:55 Conclusion and key takeaways for kettlebell enthusiasts

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Kettlebell Corner, where Strength meets theory, where we take you on a deeper dive into all things kettlebells. I'm Jeremiah Whalen, and he is Roger Parks. You like how I did that? And you are not the father. It was like an old Mori Povich pacing. Anyways, if you're listening to this and you know that, you're probably the people we like to work with. And if you don't know it, look it up and uh enjoy the shenanigans. Today I want to ask you a question, Roger, and I'm hoping that you can provide some answers for everybody. Should you eat before you train kettlebells? Why? Okay. Probably. Okay. All right. Let's uh let's talk about first off, why somebody would consider that. I think it's somewhat obvious to me and maybe to others listening, but it provides food provides energy. Is that enough?

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Is that enough what? Like are we done with the episode? Yeah. We could be. Just eat before you train. Yeah. Um it's it's it's it's not it's not quite enough. I think we should we should explain the a little a little more context. So how do you want to frame this thing? What are what what questions um what questions are we asking specifically or what problem are we trying to solve? What's the point of being a problem? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

All right. First I want to let's just talk about energy first. So let's give a quick um overview of the energy systems and like the time that they're active and how that is related to intensity. And then we'll get into a couple other things I have uh Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Before we do that, let me explain to people listening what's in it for them.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

That's fair. Okay. Um if you've gotten this far, you got past the whole Moripovich reference. You brought it back up. I wasn't gonna say it again. Let me let me entice you further. This is a this is a question I've gotten quite a bit. Uh and this is an idea that's out there is is what should I eat before I train? Should I eat before I train? Um, are there any potential consequences if I don't? The answer is yes. Are they are they horrible? Probably not. But this is important to understand if you're looking to train, you're looking to solve a problem, you're looking to maximize your progress, then you want to understand how these things interact. So if you are not eating before a particular type of training, then there may be some downsides to that. So we're really looking to um best case, uh, or I should say worst case, increase your efficiency with your workouts. Best case, keep you from doing things like cannibalizing muscle and not getting any results or even moving backwards because you're you're training in a way that um you're training in a way that's not beneficial, or your lifestyle is not actually enforcing, uh reinforcing your training or supporting your training. So it it really does make a difference. And in some cases, it's the difference between getting results and and not getting results. I had a client who explained to me once uh when something had clicked for him that he realized that he was doing about 80% of what he was supposed to do. And 80% is a lot of work, but it was not enough for him to get where he needed to be. And he realized he needed to do 90. So he said, Well, if I think about it, 80% is a lot to do and get no results. But an extra 10% was not a lot of extra effort in order to get results. So that extra 10% was really the difference between him losing a sizable amount of weight, it was about 45 pounds, uh, his body felt a lot better. And the reason why I share that is sometimes it's that little, that little extra bit, that little um 10% that doesn't make a difference between you, you know, ramming your head against the wall, doing the same thing day in, dead out, day out, not getting results, or you're actually getting what you want out of this type of training. So we wanna we wanna give you some information to um inform your decisions.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Okay. All right. So your client decided that he could give an extra 10%. And was that strictly from now adding nutrition to his thing, giving him the energy to do that, or was it something else?

SPEAKER_00 4:13

It it was something else. In this case, it was nutrition related, and that that 10% difference was nutrition. But the point was that sometimes it's a small thing that makes a big difference. And this may be one of those things for somebody. You you getting results from your training may be a matter of you eating before you train. If you've followed us for a while, you know I'm not one to exaggerate, and I'm always the it depends guy. And we want to talk about context. So sometimes it's not gonna make a huge difference. Um, it should always make a difference, but sometimes it's not going to change outcomes. But it actually might, and it might change outcomes pretty significantly.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah, because there's this idea that if you go in fasted, then you're going to essentially burn more fat. And that is going to be your key to losing weight, especially with kettlebells. I think it's talked about a lot with like, oh, kettlebell swing, you're fasted and then you can do this.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Um which under the under the right circumstances might be true. You know, if you if you don't have a lot of uh, you know, if you you don't have uh high blood sugar, if you don't have what's called glycogen, which is just um glucose that's been stored either in the liver or at the muscles, then yeah, you'll burn more fat because you don't really have much else to fuel you. You do have something, uh, you do have protein, and you can use protein to turn that into glucose. It's a process called gluconeogenesis. We'll talk a little bit about that. But yes, that is theoretically true. But when we go over the the energy systems, you'll understand very quickly why that's not possible. So we have three, and they are dependent upon um a few things, but but two that are really important. And one is time and one is intensity. So what is the what's what's the first one? We don't even need to get into names, but what is the first and the fastest one? And a little bit about it. Right? What happened? The glycolytic energy system? No, that'd be the second one.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Oh, okay. Anaerobic.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

So the the when we when I'm when I'm thinking first and primary, we're we're thinking about which ones are going to supply immediate energy. So you you want to you want to break out for whatever reason you're walking down the street, you hear a loud noise, you realize you need to get away from some danger. Um there's there's going to be an energy system that works right away. And people usually call it the ATPPC system. Um and that system is really about immediate energy. And the the numbers vary. Some people say you have up to 30 seconds with this system. Uh other people swear it's 10 seconds or or fewer even. But it's very quick energy, but it doesn't last very long. So with this first energy system, we see already these two things, the intensity of your activity and the duration really mattering. If you want to go all out, run as fast as you can, do anything as fast or as intensely as you can. Let's just say, let's just call it 10 seconds. You got about 10 seconds to do that. And that really has to do with how quickly you can uh feed yourselves, how quickly you can supply energy to the thing that's actually creating the movement. After that, you have a choice to make. You can, and and and just for easy reference, you can think to yourself, how long can I really sprint as fast as I possibly can? Okay. And the answer is not long. You'll you'll have to slow down. You have to make a decision after, let's say, that 10 second mark. Do I either A slow down or decrease intensity? Um, or do I stop? Because you can't do both. The the time duration of this first energy system is not very long. The second one is where we go into the the glycolytic, and that's where we use more blood sugar. And that's the traditional system most people are going to be in when they're doing, let's say, your regular weight training. And just to be clear, this these are vast oversimplifications. So we want to give you a basic overview where we're not trying to give you all the nuts and bolts because this could easily be, you know, 10 hours right there. But the glycolytic system is usually the one that we use. Um and it's often called anaerobic glycolysis. You know, we're we're going into that, uh, meaning, you know, without oxygen. Um, of course, you're never mind. I'm not going to get into the details. But the the point is that you're you're burning, you're blur, you're burning sugar. It's the one you use when you're lifting weights. Uh when you're feeling muscles burn, usually goes up to about a minute or so, you know, that it'll take over maybe 30 seconds to a minute. And that's when we will uh have to make another decision. So imagine you're doing a set of um bicep curls. Okay. Sweet. There's there's a certain intensity uh that is associated with the load in front of you. And unless you are, let's say you, Jeremiah, I give you um a broomstick and I tell you to do curls with it. Okay. How long do you think you're gonna be able to do curls with the broomstick? Probably unlimited time. Probably. It wouldn't be unlimited, but it would definitely be longer than a minute. It'd be a different energy system. It would be. So you know the intensity matters. So let's say I make this this broomstick into a barbell, and it's something that you can do about 10 or 12 reps with, um, at which point you're gonna have to slow things down. And let's say you do slow reps, and let's say the whole set takes about a minute. Well, you're getting to the outer margins of that um, you know, you're getting toward the outer margins of that energy system. Again, you need to make another decision. Do I stop? Do I take a rest? Or do I lighten the load? Because if I were to put the the broomstick back in your hand, you'd still be able to keep moving because the you've decreased the intensity, therefore you've increased the amount of time. And then we've got our third system, which is the aerobic system, which is theoretically, you know, we can go for hours and hours and hours. But the catch with that one is you cannot go at the same intensity. So with our first energy system, you have high intensity, very low duration. The second one, you have moderate intensity, moderate duration. For the last one, you have low intensity, long duration. And these energy systems are always going in and out, in and out. But this is relevant for a particular point. And that is when you're doing movement that is higher intensity, it needs to be fueled by one of these two first two systems primarily. The again, all three are always working to some degree. We're talking about which one is dominant. Okay. Now we're getting into kettlebell training and we're getting into um specifically the intensity of that training, and we're getting into this idea of a fasted state. So are we good so far on the energy systems? Is that would you say that's adequate?

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah, it pretty much covers it enough for everybody listening here.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Okay. So we're we're taking we're taking this idea that Jeremiah advanced that you're coming into this workout fasted. Okay. Again, not a comment on being fasted, not fasted. We're just talking about the way these rules work so you can use them. If you're fasted, you don't have a lot of uh glucose or sugar in your bloodstream. Okay. It's it's pretty much, you know, you're when you're sleeping, you're most of the time burning primarily fat. Um, you know, you're gonna tap into that eventually. But your blood sugar is gonna drop. You don't, you haven't eaten anything, you know, ideally for eight hours. So you're going to, you're gonna wake up, you're not gonna have a bunch of, you know, sugar in your bloodstream because you don't, frankly, you don't need it. You know, all the your energy demands, sleeping I would classify as a low intensity activity, right? Not as low as it gets. So you're low intensity, you can use you can use your stored body fat to to feed whatever body processes you need. So you wake up, your blood sugar is going to be low, right? Well, so you're fasted, you're doing a morning workout, let's say. Um, this effect can get even more um pronounced if you're not eating, and let's say you're doing a noon workout. I know people who will, you know, skip breakfast, um, skip lunch, do a workout, and then eat after lunch, right? So what are you relying on for energy? Well, we have an issue. If we don't have um, let's say our first energy system, let's just assume, let's stipulate that it it has what it needs. So we got 10 seconds. Uh, I don't think people are working out for 10 seconds. I think they're working out for a little bit longer. Okay. So we're going to need to get some blood sugar. We're going to need to kind of hang out in that second, that second system quite a bit. That's the one that we're using primarily in order to fuel our activities, either the first one or the second one. Um, but not much with the third. The cardio is going to help your kettlebell training, but it's not usually the primary system you're training. You know, even kettlebell sport, um, what are they, what are the the sets like 10 minutes? 10 minutes, yeah. So you're gonna you're gonna get way to the upper edge of edge of the other one and you're gonna tap into your cardio, right? But you're not looking at compare the the difference between you know a 10-minute kettlebell sport set and a marathon. Yeah.

unknown 13:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

So again, these these things are gonna live on a they're gonna live on a continuum. It's not this, this or this. But either way, you're gonna need to tap into some blood sugar, and that's where you're you're going to go into what they call your glycogen storage. So you've got that in your liver and you've got that in your muscles. Now, there's a finite amount of glycogen that we can store. And that has to do with age. It has to do with things like body composition, how good you are at storing this stuff. Your body tends to get better at doing these things. But either way, we've got a finite amount. And I sent you some numbers earlier. Um, and again, these are just ranges. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

So it total storage is going to be anywhere from 300 to 500 grams, which equates to about 1200 to 2,000 calories, calories. And that liver, which maintains the blood glucose, is going to be 100 to 120 grams, which is 400 to 480 calories. The muscle glycogen, which is about 200 to 400 grams, which is approximately 800-ish to 1600 calories, and that's going to be used for local fuel only. So I assume in the working muscles that are being used. And essentially, after a 12-hour fast, liver glycogen drops around 25 to 30 percent, and muscle glycogen mostly remains intact. What do you think about those, Roger?

SPEAKER_00 15:03

I don't think anything about them. That's just the way it is just the way it is. Okay. So those are numbers if you want, if you want to look at the numbers. Um, the reason why I thought it'd be good to share them is these numbers aren't crazy low. It's not like you're right away, you know, the there's this terror that people like to evoke of eating muscle. And it can happen. This process of gluconeogenesis. So gluco, you know, think you think sugar and neonogenesis creation. We're we're creating new sugar. Um, and we're doing it at the expense of protein. So amino acids, there's, you know, some we got some free-floating stuff. Uh, but if we need to, we can actually break down muscle in order to do that. And there is a risk. Um, and there are some factors for that risk, but generally this doesn't happen unless you're really burning a lot of calories and you're you're spending a lot of time doing these particular things, uh, doing exercise. So let's say you're going fasted, you know, and you're doing like a really, really long distance run, you know, 90 minutes plus, you you do run that risk is a very real risk. And, you know, the the risk will fluctuate based on some other factors. But the point is don't think that as soon as you step onto the floor, the strength floor, you're immediately burning muscle because the odds are you're probably not going to, you might. Um, and there are some people who are going to argue about those things. And I'm not really interested in that because it's not my, it's not my specialty and it's not really my interest. But the point is that there, there is a thought that that's not a huge risk um unless you exercise too intensely and for too long. And is this a is this a one-time fast or is this a chronic thing? Are you chronically fasted just so that this is your this is your way of life? So we do need to be.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Go ahead. I'd say I'd say most people that I hear this from and and and I and knowing or being around an environment where a lot of various people train, it seems like that's a regular thing. That's like their general plan, is like I'm just gonna train fasted. And then I even train people that are like, oh, it's the only beat before I train. I'm like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Well, well, okay. So, you know, this is this is worst case you're gonna start burning muscle, which you don't want to do because you're you're looking to build it, not burn it. So there are some risks, but I, you know, from from what I understand, the risks are crazy. There are things to mitigate them. And we can't even really have an intelligent discussion about it unless we start talking about context. And again, I don't want to do that because that's not really what we're all about. We do need to think about intensity. So why do people tell you they want to train kettlebells?

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Well, I think the main thing is you can get a lot done in a short amount of time. Okay. So they're time efficient.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

And what what what physical attributes do people say they want to build?

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Strength. A lot of times like strength and endurance, both those sort of things, mostly, you know, like basic fitness base more or less, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Okay. I and I would agree with that, but I would say there's one more attribute that people talk about, and they usually they usually call it power. Want to trade power. Yeah, power.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

I want to learn to be a full-white this word of power, Roger. We had a whole episode on that. So be a check it out so you know what power really is.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Um let's say, let's say, you know, this idea of I want to be able to move something really fast, and and that's something um that's something you could do with a kettlebell swing. So let's say you're doing kettlebell swings and you're you're out of bed first thing in the morning, blood sugar is low, and you're you're getting ready to do some swings. Well, if you're training that, what energy system do we need to, which energy system do we need to use based on what I talked about earlier?

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Well, the ATP system slash CP, if you want to add that little CP.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

So we're we're using um, you know, we're going, we're going pretty high intensity. And that stuff will be available, but the problem is that needs to be replenished. And that that's got to come from somewhere. So you're gonna need to tap in, you're gonna need to get some blood sugar from somewhere. And where the issue, where the issue arises is it takes a little while for all these switches to flip. You don't just wake up and in your body is like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna dump a bunch of my my glucose here, um, or my glycogen rather. It takes a little bit of time. And again, these numbers vary, but one number that I kept coming across was about 15 to 20 minutes in order for your body to kind of switch over and to really be good at using your your stored um your stored glycogen for a fuel source. And some people do this, some people want to do it. I know bodybuilders who have done it in order to um get a particular training effect. Sometimes it's it's getting leaner again. A lot of this stuff's way over my head. So I'm not saying that it's necessarily a bad thing, but what I am saying is if your goal is, we'll call it power training and you want to do it first thing in the morning, you're doing it when you're fasted, I will tell you it is almost scientifically impossible for you to be able to move as quickly or as powerfully as you can in that state, that it's going to take some time. And being that a lot of people use kettlebells because they're time efficient, they're like, yeah, I can bang out a 20, 30 minute workout and do more than you can do in an hour. Absolutely true. But what happens when the first 15 to 20 minutes of your workout is sluggish? Because you, you don't have, you don't have ready energy. It's not available for you. So forget about half your workout, you know. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, when when we're looking at, let's say, bodybuilders who are doing longer, more intense, um, you know, not intense in terms of uh speed, but in terms of volume and all that stuff, they can they can handle this because they've got they've got time for that that switch to flip. They can maybe do a little bit longer warm-up, um, and they're gonna be good to go. Plus, bodybuilders tend to be really good about dealing with pain. And regular people don't often build that muscle.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

We're there's a whole phrase about it.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

No pain, no gain. So they they they build that muscle really well, better than most other people. But the point is if you're looking to build power and you're looking to be explosive, um, one, you want to make sure your sets aren't gonna be too long. A lot of people want to do uh like, oh, I do sets of 10. Like, okay, well, that's probably too long anyway, because you know 10 swings, about two seconds to five. 15 seconds. You know, you're looking at 15 to 20 seconds, and then uh you're probably too long. Where you do do a set of five and you want to be safe, do a set of four and just crush the bell. But again, you're not gonna Be able to do that, you're not going to recover as well until you have that turnover. So the idea of training fasted is going to compromise your ability to be explosive. It's going to compromise potentially some of the muscle you've built. Now, if you are going to do it and it works for you, then you're probably going to want to focus more on grind lifts than ballistic lifts. Um, you're probably also going to want to make your intensity a little bit lower. If you can get to a point where, you know, again, these three energy systems aren't mutually exclusive. You're not in one than the other than the other. They all work together. But if you can, if you can minimize, um, you can minimize your intensity a little bit, you can be more effective that way. So if you are in a place where you're not usually fasted, but you're not really um able to eat, then you probably want to consider going a little bit uh a little bit lighter or not quite as hard because you you still want to get the work in. And there are times when you know life isn't isn't gonna be perfect. And it's like, yeah, I'm hungry, but I'll be okay. So I don't want you to come away with the idea that oh, I'm gonna, you know, your your left bicep's gonna be missing by the time you know your your workout's over because you ate it for gluconeogenesis. Yeah, it's my favorite cereal. But but you do you do want to um, you know, if you if you've you've got to be in the situation where you still want to work out, just don't go quite as don't go quite as hard. You know, the the thing I hear a lot is um, you know, people like to do the min-max thing. This has been true in fitness since I've been in this. And you know, something comes out and it's like, oh, intermittent fasting's the best. So I'm gonna do that. Uh hit training, hit training. I'm all in for hit training. I'm doing HIT training. Uh let's do some Tabatas and all of these little buzzy things. And I was talking to Jeremiah earlier today, and yes, we do make fun of people sometimes. Um behind the curtain. Don't worry, it's nobody here. It's not here. Look behind the curtain. So we worked at a commercial, that's where we met is at a commercial gym, and we we would see the group fitness classes and we'd see the hit, and we'd see a bunch of lazy, sloppy people moving slowly, lifting tiny little pink weights. And like these people are doing exactly nothing except for socializing, which is cool. They get a little sweaty because the energy system they have to use is is not uh, you know, they're they're using their aerobic system, but there's nothing HIT about any of this stuff. In order to, in order to train HIT or high intensity, uh, you know, do intervals, you you really, you really need to push hard to do it right. And these people were not doing that. So, but people kind of gather all these little buzzy things together. It's like, well, I'm gonna fast and I'm gonna do my my high intensity stuff, and you know, then I'm gonna take my supplements and I'm gonna do some red light and then a sauna, maybe a cold plunge.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Um you'd look at my workout journal.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

And then I'm gonna do my I'm gonna do my gratitude journal. Um these things. My vision board, Roger. My vision board. Yeah, your vision board. Um, these things have a place. I'm not saying they don't, but the don't assume just because you see this, you know, we we watch we watch kettlebell videos. You know, we we watch people, we've seen videos that have millions of views. And I promise you, these coaches have no idea how to train kettlebells. None. They're using these tiny little weights, and they're they're not gonna do, they're not gonna get you the results. Don't don't rely on a professional or an alleged professional to tell you this is how this works. And don't assume just because you go to a class, these classes are really popular lately. People are going to these classes and and there's value, there's absolutely value in them. But don't just assume that because you know somebody says you're doing this, that you're actually doing that. These things have rules, uh, they work a particular way. Um, so you should understand the variables, you should understand the trade-offs you're making when you are working out fasted. When you're working out fasted, your intensity will be lower and your duration should be a little bit lower too. So you can do it. Just don't assume that you're gonna have a crazy workout.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Yeah, it one of the things that is touted highly in the running community, and this is, I think, even hard for the running community. And this is stuff I've learned for years training up to run the marathon um a a year ago or whatever, but it was always don't run your don't just don't run fasted. They're like, just don't do it. Because like if you want it to be effective, whether it's a speed training or a long distance run or a tempo or whatever, all these various runs, they were saying to not run uh fasted. You you would eat some sort of carbohydrate, is what they would say. And I know we're not gonna talk about exactly what anybody should eat before you work out. Carbohydrates are going to give you likely the quickest access to energy, uh, certain carbohydrates, you know, it just depends what it is. Probably not, I don't know, maybe an apple, but uh bananas are usually pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Um let's I want to hit this a little bit harder. And the reason why he's pointing out carbohydrates is because they are the thing that's going to turn into uh the blood sugar the fastest. You can use stored body fat, but the process to break it down and turn it into usable energy just has a lot more steps. And when you go through more steps, it takes more time. So because it takes more time and it's harder, you have to decrease your energy and your intensity. So for the most part, if you're doing stuff that has any type of intensity, you're gonna want to do your carbs because they've got to fuel your workouts. And you know, there are other people who say, oh, you get fat adapted and things like that. And that might be true. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Maybe on keto, like listen, like I've done all these diets, Roger. I've done them all. Every single one. You name it, I've done it. Some to success, some not. You know my no grains phase. You know what I mean? And that's essentially keto. And like you would have to go a long way and be miserable and suffer and piss everybody off, especially your wife, and while you were trying to eliminate grains. I think that was also your adults shouldn't wear shorts face. I still stand by that. Depends where you're at. If you're at the beach, yeah, go for it. But it I look, listen, I uh you know it's hard sometimes, it's hot out, uh, especially if you live in the valley. But but anyway, so there's there's a everything takes time. Every no matter what it is, it's gonna take time. And you're eating that banana before you work out isn't going to disrupt your weight loss if your weight loss is focused on nutrition. You know, you're gonna change your body composition with the kettlebell as far as like using it to add muscle or you know, taking the byproduct of power development and these sort of things, that will contribute to that and you will burn some calories, but whatever you're tracking your calories with for your kettlebell training, like you know, you tape the watch to your arm or wrap it around your ankle like a prisoner. We we've seen them all. Um, and it's gonna give you a number that's probably not accurate. And whatever if it is, anyways, you know what I mean? Like you're you can control so many factors. And I think the you you had said this in the prep, Roger. The eating before is just another variable variable you can manipulate to get your desired outcome. And so, like using it for what it's for, the the power training session, if you don't eat, you're wasting half your time trying to get your your your stored body energy to get you going to what to where you want to be. Now, you take something like a popular, I think, and very effective if you're if you're good at snatching, high intensity interval sort of session would be the quick and the dead, right? That sort of protocol. I find that to be pretty effective and and gives you the opportunity to go really hard, take a little bit of a break, and go really hard. But the idea is to go really hard. And a lot of times that is where you can leave something on the table if you skip some food prior to your training, whether it's a half an hour or whatever, because you think you're going hard. And I put people through this as part of our training plans and and things like that, because the snatch is in there. And the snatch, everybody loves the snatch, it does everything for you. But when I see you move it, I I am either going to reduce your bell size or we could scrap the whole thing if you aren't able to generate the intensity that is desired or designed for that program. And I use time a lot for that.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Don't confuse it's hard for it's intense. It might be challenging, but that doesn't mean you're working out with intensity. They're not the same things. Something can be difficult, something can consume a lot of calories, um, but it doesn't mean it's high intensity stuff. It doesn't mean it's demanding of your body the same thing. So an important distinction.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

So would you say a snatch test is hard or intense? Yes. Or all right, just making that clear. All right. Um so for the hit, showing up hungry is not the answer. You're you're gonna leave some things on the table. You might run the risk of burning through muscle eventually.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Um I'm not I'm not I'm not a fan of high-intensity interval training anyway, in most cases.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Yeah. I mean, well, I guess the question is, would the EMOM setup then be considered a high intensity interval training?

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Uh it could be, but in most cases, no. No, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Because the duration of the swing?

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Well, you're you're you're working EMOM is designed to um manipulate your work-to-rest ratios. And if you're doing it the right way and there is a right way, then you are respecting your ability for a period of time. And once that gets easy, then you're changing that ratio a bit. So you know, if you you think, oh, well, I'm gonna do a snatch test and you have done exactly zero snatches in your life, and then you're you're going to work with the the appropriate work to race rest ratio if you're setting down the bell, which is roughly three to one. So you're working three times longer than the rest you're getting. Um, you're not gonna do it. Like and if you did you, there'd be no need to train because you would have finished before you even started, which makes no sense. So that sounds like some some weird Eastern philosophical thing right there. Um But the you're you're not gonna do it. So, you know, the point the point of high intensity interval training, it's almost come to mean it's almost synonymous with just randomly exhausting yourself. And it's it's not it's not generally an effective strategy. It's hard to recover from. And you know, we get we get into things like injuries, and just regular people aren't good at that stuff. You have to get good at learning how to push yourself, and you also have to earn the right to push yourself. So um that that that could be something else we talk about another day. But um, the point is if you're you're what you're doing is trying to train with some intensity, um give yourself some calories before you do that. If not, then doesn't mean you can't train, it just means you need to train different if if you're gonna if you're gonna maximize, if you're not gonna jeopardize uh muscle, and if you're not worried about um minimizing the intensity with which you work. And that's really the that's the takeaway.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Yeah, and ultimately if you're gonna do something, you can try this in a scientific way. You can do a couple weeks the same workouts, fasted, and then do a couple weeks the same workouts with some fuel and see how you feel. Like really, like when you start the session, how do you feel? Do you feel like you should have eaten something? Then you probably should have. You know, there everybody gets that lightheaded creep every now and again when you're working out too hard, you didn't eat, and then you're like, well, at least I've experienced it as a trainer. This will creep up from people a lot. Like, oh my God, I feel a little dizzy. I'm like, okay, well, have a seat. Don't lie to me at the beginning of the session again and tell me you feel great and you haven't eaten, and then we go nuts.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

But I I feel the need to point out, don't be a dum-dum with this. Um, you have to have a lot of time to digest. Like, oh, I always feel like shit when when I eat before I work out. Like, well, when did you eat? Like 10 minutes. It's bad too, but it's like, okay, you eat 10 minutes before you leave the house, and then you come in and you want to do a hard workout. Yeah, I'm not gonna feel good either.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah. There might be a little trip to the trash can coming up.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Yeah. All right. So don't say bizarre. I feel bad when I uh when I eat before I work out.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Because one time you felt bad because you didn't give it enough time, and now you've absolute yourself into a corner. No absolutes, everybody. That's the motto.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Just so you know, these are these are all real things that I've experienced multiple times throughout years. This is not uh this is not a one-time thing.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yeah, and like over the over the years of training that we've done, and I'm sure we're nearing 40 years combined of training people and the fact that I'm sure you've trained yourself at a certain point where you probably have felt these ways, whether you felt like you worked too hard on an empty stomach or you went too hard and when you ate right away, you know, and it's it's tricky, but you'll have to find what works for you. I think the ultimate thing with this episode is your performance is gonna be dependent upon the energy you have to perform. And to get more performance, learn how to eat to fuel the things that you're trying to do. And we're not a nutrition coaches, so uh you know, we're not gonna lay out a full plan for you, but trust me, like a little bit can go a long way. Eat a banana and see what happens. Hell, you know what I use sometimes, Roger, just to throw this out there those running gels, I'll use those as some fuel before I go and do a workout. If I don't want to eat something, but I also don't want to be fasted, because that's going to give me uh, you know, 20 grams of carbohydrates pretty much right away within like minutes, usually, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Yeah, but there's there are products, excuse me, there are products you can buy that are designed to be fast digesting just for this particular issue. So, you know, if you say, oh, well, we're working out at seven and I don't want to have to wake up, you know, an extra hour early in order to eat and then digest, then don't. Go go buy the stuff. Figure it out, but don't just stop because it's hard. Yeah, yeah. And uh real quick, this is a wild card, Roger.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Okay. It's a wild card. Do you need to drink that protein shake immediately after your training session? Uh not from what I've been hearing. That's what I hear too. And we can apparently take in like a hundred grams of protein now without even batting an eyelash. So screw your 30 grams.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

One of the reasons why I don't get into nutrition is one, I'm not all that interested in it. Um I I know the basics, but um more than anything, it it it changes very quickly. So, you know, you got your your optimum, you know, for a while the thing was you had your optimum window. Um it it does it does seem there's more to, from what I understand, there's more to um getting your carbs in after your workout. Um which which may be a little more um well that's gonna give you energy protein. You know what I mean? Well, you're gonna you're gonna, yeah, you're gonna your body's more like from my understanding is your body's more likely to absorb that as as glycogen as opposed to just, you know, free-floating calories that are gonna potentially convert fat. And, you know, it again, it's a very complicated thing, which is why I'm reluctant to talk about it, because you know, there's someone out there cringing when they hear the things I say. And I know that they're a little bit inexact, but we also need to talk to regular people. So, you know, there's nothing, there's nothing 100%, there's nothing ironclad. But if you are interested in performance and higher intensity, which is one of the things that the kettlebell offers, then I think it's safe to say that having some food before your workout is going to facilitate that more than than training fasted.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Straight up. That's where we stand. So do or don't, just don't puke in my trash can. All right. Okay, deal. All right. Anything else? No, no. All right. Thanks for listening. Be sure to download the Bells app where there is plenty of high intensity training in there, plenty of grinds. You can get the snatch test blueprint for all those curious on how to work that work to rest ratio to actually pass the snatch test. And uh yeah, like and subscribe. Bay. Stay strong, everybody.