New Normal Big Life
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New Normal Big Life
The War on Men: How Traditional Masculinity Strengthens Society
The demonization of masculinity over the past decade has created a damaging cultural environment where boys and men are made to feel inherently flawed simply for exhibiting natural masculine traits. This eye-opening episode challenges this harmful narrative with compelling research showing traditional masculinity actually improves mental well-being and provides psychological resilience.
When we examine the American Psychological Association's 2018 guidelines for practice with boys and men, we discover a concerning tendency to pathologize normal male behavior. While acknowledging positive traits like courage and leadership, the emphasis on potential negative outcomes has contributed to a societal message that masculinity itself is problematic. As researcher Adam Alter's work demonstrates, the labels we apply don't just describe reality—they actively shape it, affecting how boys and men view themselves and how others treat them.
Licensed therapist Amy Berrafato, LMFT, CST (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, and Certified Sex Therapist) offers a refreshing perspective, emphasizing that masculinity itself isn't toxic—rather, specific behaviors can be harmful regardless of gender. She advocates creating safe spaces where men can express vulnerability without judgment, celebrating masculine strengths while encouraging healthy emotional expression. "Expressing feelings in ways people can hear" becomes a pathway to stronger relationships without requiring men to abandon their masculine identity.
The societal consequences of devaluing traditional masculinity extend beyond indiv
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Hi friends, welcome to the new normal, Big Life Podcast! We bring you natural news and stories about nature that we hope will inspire you to get outside and adventure, along with a step-by-step plan to help you practice what you’ve learned and create your own new normal and live the biggest life you can dream. I’m your host, Antoinette Lee, the Wellness Warrior.
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new, normal big life masculinity is trashed.
Speaker 2:Men are cracking. For a decade the world slam grit, strength, boys being boys, calling it toxic, rot. Research flips it. Traditional masculinity lifts spirits, shields minds. Yet toxic masculinity the labels are scarring kids and crushing men's souls. This is masculinity bashed Truth fights back, unpacking the war on men and cheering what's good in every masculine heart. Listen up, we're shredding the lies and arming you with proof. Take back manhood.
Speaker 2:Expert quotes on this subject. Ai's got the mic. I'm an IT junkie braced for some next level nerd magic. Hi friends, welcome to the new normal big life podcast. We bring you natural news and stories about nature that we hope will inspire you to get outside and adventure, along with a step-by-step plan to help you practice what you've learned and create your own new normal and live the biggest life you can dream. I'm your host. Antoinette Lee, the wellness warrior, heads up.
Speaker 2:This episode dives into middle health struggles that might hit close to home or feel heavy for some. Take care of yourself. Skip or pause if you need. If you don't identify with the traditional masculine archetype, you might not see yourself reflected in this episode. While all character types contribute value to a civilized modern society, this piece specifically addresses traditional masculinity. However, the content here doesn't aim to cast any negative light on other character traits. In researching this article, I noticed a significant lack of positive or supportive content about masculine men and boys published since 2015. For nearly a decade, masculinity has been frequently criticized, which has had a detrimental effect on many men and boys. This episode blasts the masculinity bashing, cheering every rugged edge, while torching the toxic lie that's choking men. Here's what the researchers said about masculinity, men's mental health and how toxic masculinity as a label is detrimental to men, boys and society.
Speaker 2:The concept of toxic masculinity reflects a broader societal attempt to critique certain behaviors traditionally associated with masculinity, like playing rough sports or not expressing emotions openly. However, labeling these traits as inherently problematic or even pathological can lead to misunderstanding and stigmatization of typical male behavior. Since the 1930s, with the introduction of the linguistic relativity hypothesis by Benjamin Worf, we've understood that language doesn't just describe our world, but actively shapes it. When we label behaviors or traits as toxic masculinity, we're not just identifying a set of behaviors. We're framing how society views and treats boys and men. This framing can reinforce stereotypes, suggesting there's something inherently wrong with boys for engaging in activities or behaviors that are culturally normative or a norm for them Rather than recognizing these as part of a spectrum of human behavior. It's important to differentiate between critiquing harmful behaviors and pathologizing normal developmental stages or expressions of masculinity. Recognizing this distinction can help in fostering a more nuanced discussion about gender norms and encourage positive masculinity traits, while addressing truly harmful behaviors without alienating or shaming individuals for their natural inclinations.
Speaker 2:Happiness researcher Dr Sonja Lubomirsky's research suggests that quote this much happiness up to 40 percent is within our power to change. End quote. So if we extrapolate the model, according to Dr Lubomirsky's model, 50% of our happiness is determined by genetics, which can be influenced by 40% of our life choices, while the remaining 10% is shaped by our environment, the things that happen to us. Consider a masculine man or boy growing up in a violent, hopeless urban environment on the south side of Chicago or a West Virginia holler where access to opportunities that contribute to happiness and success in the American society is limited. This individual starts like 10% behind on the success curve due to these environmental factors, a disadvantage imposed by societal structures.
Speaker 2:Now, if we consider that 50% of what defines these men includes certain character traits that society might label negatively are inherited. These inherited traits, which can be turned on or off by certain factors adds another layer of challenge. Regardless of race, income or other societal labels, these masculine individuals from challenging environments are then at a combined 60% disadvantage. How can we as a society expect these men and boys from difficult environments to catch up and demonstrate the best of masculine traits by making better life choices, with only 40% of their human potential positively impacted? This expectation seems unrealistic without addressing the systemic issues that contribute to their initial disadvantage. To truly support these individuals at becoming their best selves, we have to consider comprehensive societal changes that produce better educational and job opportunities, also community acceptance and compassion and fostering an environment where positive masculine characteristics can thrive in individuals from challenging backgrounds. When we come back, we'll take a look at what the American Psychological Association offers its professionals and its guidelines.
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Speaker 2:Welcome back. We're examining what the American Psychological Association, the APA, offers its professionals as guidelines. In 2018, the APA published guidelines titled quote APA Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Boys and Men end quote which aim to assist psychologists in providing effective, evidence-based care to male clients. The APA says these guidelines draw upon over 40 years of research indicating that traditional masculinity can be psychologically harmful, particularly when it leads to the suppression of emotions. The guidelines encourage psychologists to help boys and men navigate the pressures of conforming to restrictive national masculine norms in ways that promote mental health and well-being.
Speaker 2:According to the APA, while traits associated with masculinity like courage, strength and leadership can be positive, certain masculine norms such as stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression, when taken to extremes, can lead to negative outcomes. Only the phrase when taken to extremes is often overlooked, and much of society has come to view any form of masculine male expression as a toxic sickness to be wiped out of our culture. These masculine norms the APA discussed include reluctance to seek help for mental health issues, higher rates of violence, substance abuse and suicide among men. The guidelines stress the importance of psychologists recognizing their own biases, promoting healthy relationships and encouraging men and boys to express a broader range of emotions, but the guidelines have spoke considerable discussion, with some praising the APA for addressing an overlooked area, while others criticize it for potentially pathologizing masculinity. This reflects a broader societal conversation on how to approach masculinity in a way that supports mental health without reinforcing negative stereotypes. Let's look at the intent for the American Psychological Association's guidelines.
Speaker 4:APA Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Boys and Men. Professional practice guidelines are statements that suggest or recommend specific professional behavior, endeavor or conduct for psychologists. Guidelines differ from standards in that standards are mandatory and may be accompanied by an enforcement mechanism. Thus, guidelines are aspirational in intent and they are intended to facilitate the continued systematic development of the profession to help assure a high level of professional practice by psychologists.
Speaker 2:That perspective is compelling. However, from my personal experiences with masculine men and boys, both through family friends as well as my philanthropic work as the founder of the American Adventure Sports Club, it's clear that society has, in many ways, inflicted significant harm on masculine men and boys. This harm is not just incidental, but seems to be perpetuated by influential institutions like the APA, media outlets, government policies, psychologists and educational systems. These entities have influenced public perception and behavior, encouraging a broader societal conformity to narratives that might not fully appreciate or understand the value of traditional masculinity. Rather than offering support to masculine men and boys who might be struggling with issues related to negative behaviors, these guidelines have, in some interpretations, including my own, pathologized all masculine men and boys. This approach has led to over a decade of cultural content and societal behaviors that have signaled, both in America and globally, that traditional masculine traits are unwelcome or problematic. Traditional masculine traits are unwelcome or problematic. This widespread messaging has potentially alienated men and boys, making them feel marginalized within their own societies.
Speaker 2:Like me, many psychologists and critics argue that the AP's guidelines on masculinity might be harmful to masculine men and boys for several reasons.
Speaker 2:There's a concern that the guidelines can be interpreted as pathologizing normal masculine traits.
Speaker 2:Critics worry that by focusing on the negative aspects of traditional masculinity, the guidelines might inadvertently suggest that being masculine is inherently problematic. This could lead to boys and men feeling that their natural behaviors and inclinations are being criticized or seen as needing correction, potentially affecting their self-esteem and identity development. Secondly, some psychologists believe that the guidelines might not adequately adjust the balance between critiquing harmful behaviors associated with masculinity and celebrating its positive aspects. While the guidelines do positive traits like leadership and courage, the emphasis on addressing the negative outcomes of traditional masculinity could overshadow these. Critics argue that this imbalance might lead to a skewed perception where all forms of masculinity are viewed through a negative lens, potentially alienating men who identify with traditional masculine roles or discouraging them for seeking psychological help for fear of being judged. This debate highlights the complexity of discussing masculinity in a way that promotes mental health without reinforcing stereotypes or causing unintended harm. Area for her perspective on the toxic masculinity label and its impact on masculine men and boys, as well as how she interprets and uses the APA guidelines in her practice.
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Speaker 2:Our guest in the new normal big life podcast today is Amy Barofato, LMFT, CFT, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified certified sex therapist. Hi, Amy, welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about your practice and therapy experiences with supporting masculine men and boys in treatment.
Speaker 6:Hi, antoinette, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. Good to talk with you. Thank you for that. Yes, I am. I'm a therapist in private practice in Chicago. I have been doing clinical work with adults, couples and families for about 18 years now and I am currently in just making the move into solo private practice on my own to see. I mostly work with adult individuals and couples, working on a variety of relationship issues Individual mental health, emotional well-being, treating depression, anxiety, stress management and then relationally communication, conflict resolution, emotion regulation, emotional and physical connection with the people in your life. It's hard not to address family of origin, work and your background, because where we come from is, you know, obviously impacts who we are and how we are, the way we are and I really love the work that I do or my initial thought is about that gender stereotypes are really harmful, like a huge broad gender stereotype for men or women, but I think particularly for men is harmful and not helpful.
Speaker 2:Why so? I'm sure you'll get into this later, but why so, mm?
Speaker 6:hmm, well, I think I mean, if you're operating out of a judgment or an assumption of, maybe, how someone is, based on what they look like, or how they talk, or how quiet they are, or how strong, how strong, physically strong they appear, there's not, it's just we can easily make assumptions of what that means when it's not necessarily true. And so, um, I, I mean we're human beings, we kind of do that naturally. But I mean I'll notice that with a client that I'm meeting for the first time, I might maybe have a thought of what I kind of expect this to be like, and I'm constantly surprised by like that. That's not how I thought this would go, and this is like so much more open and vulnerable than I originally thought was possible, which is great that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Do you have much opportunity to use the APA guidelines for psychological practice with boys and men in your practice? If so, how do you use it? If not, why?
Speaker 6:I appreciate what they're trying to do, I think, is to combat the gendered stereotype of traditional masculinity or whatever's maybe, again, stereotypically harmful about it. But that is not in my opinion. That's not masculinity. Masculinity is different from toxic masculinity, which I believe is your point too, that I want us to be addressing the toxic behaviors within yourself and also in your relationships, less so about your masculinity and what that means and says about you, because that is harmful for that person, for their relationships, for how they feel about themselves.
Speaker 2:Amy, I think the real question listeners want answered is your interpretation of my rant on how awful and harmful we've treated masculine men and boys in the past 10 years. So what are your thoughts?
Speaker 6:I have a few thoughts. So first, I can appreciate my understanding. You have a lot of experience just like talking to and interacting with men from all walks of life and so, um, and I also I really appreciate that my experience talking with men and women about their feelings, their families, their dynamics and the hard stuff is a really privileged like that I'm. It's an honor for me to be a part of that space, and so my thought is that I work with a lot of men who are who have never been taught how to talk about feelings, understand what they are, know how it feels, how to express them better.
Speaker 6:Depending on your family system and where you come from, depending on your family system and where you come from, there might be a lot of limits, or not just limits, but like negative responses to who you are, how you are, how you present, how you behave, etc. That I think a lot of folks wind up either internalizing and then I often see that it comes out in relationships sometimes so like, like, like, internalizing your feelings. The impact of that on your partner is not always great. They don't know how you really feel or they're only seeing the anger when you're upset about something as opposed to the other stuff that's underneath. And so I work with a lot of the impact, the impact of how you are with emotion, your emotion and well-being in ways that I think could probably be healthier and in a situation where there is one person in a relationship who maybe is struggling with their feelings.
Speaker 2:I've noticed this even in my female friends that some women aren't good at getting to anything that's real. They keep everything very superficial, like what's going on with work or school or kids or partner, or just light things like shopping and fashion, which I'm not really interested in, and they're also struggling to get to deep, meaningful connection. So I can appreciate although I don't have this situation in my relationship with a man in my life I can appreciate how all human beings, but especially men, in this time where everyone is so judgy and so ready to be to feel triggered and angry and and attack someone that it could be difficult to express your feelings. But you give us one strategy we could use or something we could say at home. If we're dealing with a friend or partner who maybe isn't ready to open up to us and and we're really feeling like I really need you to talk to me. So I understand what's happening in our dynamic, what's one thing that we could do?
Speaker 6:That's a great question. Two thoughts pop up for me. One is the more neutral and open your response is to whatever like, instead of being reactive to like why don't you ever talk to me? That's not going to help someone talk to you. So if you can just say like oh, okay, and then ask. Second thing, asking a question that's more of a vertical question, which is a little bit deeper, like the why or the how or like tell me, like wait, or the how or like. Tell me like wait, what do you mean by that? Can you tell me a little more about like how did you, how do you mean? Or why what? Like what makes you think that, as opposed to just what did you say, it's just there's a little bit more depth to it which and if I'm being neutral and I just want to hear what you have to say it makes it feel safe or safer just want to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 2:It makes it feel safe or safer. I think that is absolutely the key feeling safe, to be open, to be vulnerable. How would it look in a treatment setting when the therapist is using the APA guidelines to help boys and men navigate the pressures of conforming to traditional masculine norms and ways that promote mental health and well-being? End quote. For example, if I were Anthony from Around the Way, a masculine man, how would you approach helping me to navigate the pressures of masculine norms?
Speaker 6:One of my goals, actually one of the main goals in therapy that I have with folks, is just for them to have a slightly different experience of a conversation than they would somewhere else. So, for instance, if someone is new to therapy and has never been, I'll ask a little bit about how they feel about being here, cause there's usually maybe a little some nerves or maybe fear of being judged or this is kind of uncomfortable or like we're ready to go. I've just never done this before, don't know what to expect, and so my approach, again, it's pretty neutral and like in teaching that, oh, talking about your life, your feelings, your partner, your family and what that's like for you is actually not so bad and it's safe and we can do that, and, and I think that and then when we walk the walk a little bit in other sessions, there might be a little bit more, something more open, like I'm. My hope is that I'm teaching or modeling that vulnerable expression of feelings is a good thing and it's healthy and it's okay.
Speaker 2:I love that, that's awesome Assistant Professor of Marketing at New York University Stern School of Business, Adam Alter, confirmed what I heard from kids at Adventure Camp In his book Drunk Tank, Pink and Other Unexpected Forces that Shape how we Think, Feel and Behave. Alter's book and research focused on the sometimes surprising effects of subtle environmental cues on human cognition or human understanding and behavior.
Speaker 7:Hi, I'm the AI representation of author and researcher Adam Alter. Researchers began to study the cognitive effects of labeling in the 1930s, when linguist Benjamin Horf proposed the linguistic relativity hypothesis. According to his hypothesis, the words we use to describe what we see aren't just idle placeholders they determine what we see. The long-term consequences of labeling a child smart or slow are profound.
Speaker 7:Labeling isn't always a cause for concern. It can sometimes be beneficial. It would be impossible to catalog the information we process during our lives without the aid of labels like friendly, scary, tasty and harmful, for example. However, it's important to recognize that the people we label as black, white, rich, poor, smart and simple seem blacker, whiter, richer, poorer, smarter and simpler merely because we've labeled them. So, in light of Adam Alter's insights into the power of labels to shape perception and behavior, it's crucial to consider how these concepts apply to broader societal issues, such as the discussion on masculinity. Labels like toxic masculinity can have profound effects on how we view and treat men and boys. Just as Alter describes how labels can amplify certain characteristics, the term toxic masculinity might inadvertently reinforce negative stereotypes, potentially overshadowing the positive aspects of masculinity types, potentially overshadowing the positive aspects of masculinity.
Speaker 2:This brings us back to our guest, Amy. What are your thoughts on Adam Alter's warning to carefully apply labels because they might influence personal development and societal expectations of men and boys? And how can an adult patient or the parent of a boy judge when a therapist might have a bias against masculine men and boys? How would that look in treatment? How can a patient recognize bias in therapy and what should they do about it? Should they talk about it with their therapist? If so, how can they tactfully bring it up? Or should they just find a different therapist? Because what I'm hearing from masculine men and boys is they would never talk to a therapist these days because they believe they'll be told there's something wrong with being masculine.
Speaker 6:That's an important. That's an important question. I think there's a few layers there, um one. So, depending on the um, once you have a bit of rapport in the room in session, um, like, if I like, if I say something and it maybe doesn't land well with someone, if they're able to come and tell me that, like hey, when you used that word, or like there was a way that you said that that didn't sit right which is a very vulnerable thing to do, by the way to come back and say, hey, I didn't like, what did you mean by that?
Speaker 6:Or and I may have had no idea that there was like a bit of a misstep there that then we can talk openly about, maybe repair the trust if there was a bit of a fracture there.
Speaker 6:And also it would be an opportunity for me to learn a little bit of the history, maybe how. That would open me up to ask like, oh, have other people maybe made judgments of you or maybe used language like that that wasn't helpful? Tell me more, what was that like in your family? And then I have more context to go off of and I can shift my language so we can continue working together and establishing trust. And if you asked if should they talk to their therapist about it, the more honest that you can be in in session again. If you have the rapport with the person, their response to you also says a lot, like if someone's open to feedback or like, oh, I had no idea that. Uh, that that wasn't great. Thank you for telling me. Or if they double down and defend what they said and why they said it, that's good information for what might or might not be a great fit for you anyway.
Speaker 2:I think that's going to be very helpful to a lot of people, especially if they're new to therapy.
Speaker 6:Yeah, your feelings with. There's a lot of research on that your feelings about fit with your therapist is actually like the biggest indicator for long-term success in therapy, and so I would hate for anyone to feel judged or condescended to or like disrespected in there that that's not going to create, that doesn't foster an environment of growth and learning and change and honesty.
Speaker 2:It sounds like the person in treatment should trust their gut feeling about what kind of vibe they're getting from their therapist. Would that be accurate?
Speaker 6:It would. Yes, I really trust intuitive. You know your energy and what you're listening to inside you is usually telling you something, and so I'm all about listening to that, me too.
Speaker 2:I'm all about listening to that, Me too. So how did we arrive at this point in time where society's begun to vilify masculinity in boys and men, all in an attempt to enhance the lives of women, queer individuals and men who don't conform to traditional masculine norms? Let's explore the cultural shifts and the unintended consequences of this movement to so-called help men be better humans. According to Michael Flood, professor of sociology, Queensland University of Technology, the term masculinity was unknown in the 1990s and early 2000s, but since around 2015, it's become common in discussions of men and gender. It was interesting, as my research shows, that most recent article that I could find in support of masculinity, men and boys was written in 2015.
Speaker 2:The origins of toxic masculinity are interesting. The mythopoetic men's movement yes, you heard that right mythopoetic men's movement was a significant cultural phenomenon in the United States from early 1980s through the 1990s, focusing on redefining masculinity through a blend of mythology, psychology and spirituality. This movement, spearheaded by figures like a man named Shepard Bliss, aimed to redefine masculinity by distinguishing between deep or real masculinity and its toxic counterpart. Toxic masculinity was described as a set of norms that include aggression, dominance and emotional repression, which are harmful to men and those around them. According to Schaeffer Bliss, Over time the phrase was used to address societal issues like violence, sexism and emotional disconnect. It's done often at the expense of recognizing the positive and encouraging aspects of masculinity.
Speaker 2:As a biological woman meaning I was born a woman I can only share my perspective and there might be a bias in my masculine characteristic preferences. A man who exhibits strong protective energy can be very appealing to me as a friend or partner. I lift 100 pounds without help on my rule property all the time. I'm self-reliant and I fought off an attacker with my own two hands. So a partner who is physically, mentally and emotionally stronger than me, that's very appealing and it's what I'm attractive to. This preference stems from a deep state of comfort that knowing, in a world that can feel dangerous and overwhelming, I have someone who can stand by my side, literally and figuratively. For instance, when I'm on a backcountry adventure, whitewater kayaking or ice fishing, if I were to find myself in a situation where I couldn't protect myself or save myself, or from falling through the ice, for example, it's comforting to know that my partner would be there, capable and ready to help me.
Speaker 2:My father was a masculine man, happily married with my mother for 54 years. My guy, Matthew, and all my closest ride or die friends are all masculine men. These men in my life display a full spectrum of human emotions. They're always there when you need them, providing emotional support, assistance and protection. Moreover, they demonstrate both professionalism and personal integrity in all aspects of their lives, and integrity means doing the right thing even when no one's watching of their lives, and integrity means doing the right thing even when no one's watching.
Speaker 2:The masculine man in my life, Matt, and our friends took care of me after surgery. They showed up with homemade breads and foods they cook for themselves at home. They comforted and reassured me before whitewater kayaking in big, scary water and they rescued me when I swam out of my boat. And then they reminded me of everything I did well that day. Nothing toxic about these masculine men.
Speaker 2:Meeting Matt, a mentally, physically and emotionally strong masculine man, on a whitewater kayaking camping trip led to my best relationship ever. Our shared values and adventure sports lifestyle match well with areas. We're very different. I'm fortunate to live, work and recreate with my best friend, Matt in a cabin in the woods. His high emotional intelligence was a great asset during the early days of the COVID lockdown, when no one knew what to expect. While many others faced the early days of the COVID lockdown with social media posts reflecting a lack of preparedness for hard times and a breakdown of mental health and intimate relationships, Meanwhile, Matt and I thrived.
Speaker 2:Critics of masculine men often overlook that someone like Matt dedicates his free time to volunteering, sharing his expertise in kayak and fishing with children and adults and people from diverse backgrounds, including those from low-income households, individuals with disabilities, seniors, regardless of gender identity. Instead of recognizing his contributions, they quickly label him and men like him as exhibiting toxic masculinity just for showing up. Society fails to appreciate the true value of the masculine male character. Historically, when civilizations like Rome began to weaken, it was often due to a decline in military strength and civic virtue among their men, which also spread to boys, girls and women. This decline left everyone vulnerable to external invasions and internal decay, Kind of like the US right now. The loss of vigorous healthiness among men, women, girls and boys significantly contributed to the eventual downfall of these once powerful societies, as G's Michael Hoff famously said.
Speaker 7:Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men and weak men create hard times. Read by the AI-generated voice of G Michael Hoff.
Speaker 2:As character traits like flight flight or fawn begging not to be harmed in a dangerous situation were celebrated and encouraged in men and boys. Today we see unsafe communities, geopolitical instability and economically challenging times as a result of the demonization and decline of masculine men and other complex cultural and political and economic issues. When criminals and predators, male and female, believe there are no mentally and physically strong people to intervene, they're emboldened toward aggression and criminality. You only need to scroll through social media to see the facts before you. Here's an example among children In 2023, at a recreation center event sponsored by a Colorado municipality for youths age 8 to 12, boys came home and reported they were groped and kissed by girls without consent and they were asked by 8 to 20-year-old girls to sneak away to other parts of the building for sex. The sexualization of children and the breakdown of traditional roles have led to societal decline, with even our children are preying on each other, just like in the final days of Rome and other cultures. Men and boys aren't the only predators, they're not the only people capable of violence and criminal behavior, and they're not the only people who don't want to talk about their feelings either. Have you tried talking with a teen girl or a millennial woman about her feelings lately? Was that a vulnerable, calm and rational conversation?
Speaker 2:However, we've villainized and pathologized masculine men and boys for 10 years. During a CPR class to prepare for an adventure camp at the nonprofit, my guy, matt, and I founded. Young women of color and white women were initially dismissive towards Matt, but when they realized he was with me, an Afro-Latina, their demeanor changed and they softened toward him. It was as if their initial judgment of you're just another toxic masculine man exerting white privilege why are you even in my space, even though he hadn't said a word yet? The white woman's initial reaction to white to Matt, who's also white was silently retracted as they reassessed him through a new lens because he's with a Black woman. My heart breaks to see how masculine men and boys are shunned from society. Over the past 10 years, some boys at our free adventure sports club and annual adventure camp said this what kids told their camp counselors.
Speaker 8:I don't know what people's faces are telling me. I don't want to talk about my pronouns, can't I just be a kid and forget about that stuff? My teacher wants me to act like a girl and I don't want to because I'm a boy. My mother got the COVID vaccine and she's always sick. Now Is she gonna be okay? I don't remember what it's like to play with other kids. I'm glad I'm at camp because last week I was thinking about different ways to kill myself, but I don't want to do that anymore.
Speaker 3:After four days at camp, parents reported a noticeable improvement in their child's mood, behavior and school performance. We emphasize teaching kids outdoor skills like archery, kayaking and paddle boarding through a challenge-by-choice model and group therapy sessions during campfire talks. Try this with your kids and drop us a comment if you want to learn more about preparing your child for sleep away camp.
Speaker 2:In an upcoming podcast, virtual Signaling PSYOP Exposed. Researchers say labeling and virtual signaling creates loneliness, and loneliness makes people vulnerable, says dr gene twinge. Author of ijen twinge's thesis says angry, isolated individuals are easier to control politically, economically and socially. A divided society finds itself, not the puppet masters who's trying to manipulate your behavior for their own reasons, like scrolling content online and gaming for hours and buying things you don't need. So look for this episode wherever you get your podcasts. Here's what clinical psychologist Megan Mobs had to say about the American Psychological Association's guidelines and how it's harmful to men and boys.
Speaker 1:This population deserves our care and attention. Masculine men deserve guidelines so we can deliver effective treatment. They don't deserve labels. In labeling traditional masculinity as harmful, we begin to see traditionally masculine men as harmful. The truth that we seem loathe to admit is that we need men and women capable of enacting harm on others in times of war. So maybe a better place to begin is by shaming any and all toxic behavior, and not the gender in which it originates. The AI-generated voice of psychologist Megan Mobbs.
Speaker 2:When we come back, we'll talk with our expert guests about what researchers and authors notice, about how traditional masculine traits are increasingly scrutinized and shunned. Before we cover the next topic in this episode, I want to introduce you to the adventure sports lifestyle with what I like to call a micro story about an adventure I've had. The adventure sports lifestyle and my deep connection to nature is essential to my good health. Sports lifestyle and my deep connection to nature is essential to my good health. So here's the story. On a rafting trip with friends on the Frank Trich River of no Return in Salmon, idaho, on a small beach in a stretch of wilderness so remote an EMS rescue is dangerous and might not be attempted.
Speaker 2:Lying in my tent and nearly drifting off to sleep, I suddenly couldn't breathe, knowing there was no chance of help coming. I focused on deep breathing, deeply, taking air through my nose and exhaling fully through my nose again to calm myself. The river was deafening and I could feel it metaphorically pulling me into its cold waters. I surrendered to it. It was physically painful and scary, but on the other side of the experience I felt healed from a trauma that plagued me for four decades. The river pulled out the traumatic remnants of what I couldn't let go, and I am forever changed. I did that. I hope this inspires you to get outside and adventure alone with friends or the folks you love the most.
Speaker 2:Now back to our discussion on the harmful effects of the toxic male label with Amy Riafano. Amy, what insights can you offer the audience on the concept of modern societies needing masculine men and boys to thrive as a culture in a country, and how can we really learn to appreciate masculinity? How would that look within a culture and a country? And how can we relearn to appreciate masculinity? How would that look within a family and a community.
Speaker 6:I'm thinking about this a lot in the in some of what you just shared. I really think a lot of this also stems from some self-awareness, like a really deep sense of self-awareness, because, like I said, in your relationships again with partner, friends, colleagues, family members, how you speak to them, the kinds of actions you take, how you are behaviorally, how you communicate your feelings or don't, does impact how they feel, you know. So, being aware of the fact that, even if I'm someone who is not as forthright about my feelings and I tend to be more quiet, I just want to be able to acknowledge with empathy, stepping outside of myself and that might be hard for you too and so I think some of the limits on in some of those more toxic behaviors are a lack of self-awareness and a lack of empathy and sometimes a lack of willingness to do it differently, to like a real stubbornness about it, that that doesn't feel very good in a relationship when we're trying to work on things together, you know.
Speaker 2:It seems like if I put myself in the man's position, it often seems like in a man's mind, he might have a preconception of what it means to be a man and could be thinking that if I am behaving in a way that's different from how my partner wants me to be, it's because, especially if the partner's a woman, she doesn't understand me because she's not a woman. And so I wonder if it might be helpful because I've had this conversation with my partner, matt it might be helpful to talk about what it means to be a woman for me and what it means to be a man for him, that those questions or conversations came up because we spend a lot of time together recreating, or conversations came up because we spend a lot of time together recreating. So there are no screens, no TV, and if you're tired of reading a book, you actually talk to each other. So we have had conversations about what does it mean to be a man, what does it mean to be a woman, and my recommendations is that you don't have that conversation with someone when you want something from them. So if you want your husband, for example, to talk to you, you don't bring up.
Speaker 2:Well, what does it mean to be a man and then open up to me and tell me how you feel, because it could feel like you're beating him into conflict. So can you talk about some ways that when you're not having a conflict or when you're not actively trying to get someone to talk to you, what could you say to them to kind of draw them out, to let them know that it's a safe space, to let them know that, no matter what they tell you, you're still going to love them, you're still going to respect them and and you're creating a safe environment within your relationship? How would that look in practice?
Speaker 6:Yeah, I like that question too, because you're guiding. I think it's really important to speak for yourself about your own experience of being a man. What is the masculinity where you are on the spectrum of that, maybe limits of what that's like, or what it's been like to be a man, same for a woman, what it's like to be a woman, et cetera. So you can understand each other's unique personal experience in those bodies with that gender that you identify with, as opposed to what you're thinking stereotypically, which again we fall into that. But there's lots of potential to learn and grow better, which I think can then open up more, more possibility for some empathy between you, something I've learned.
Speaker 6:Brene Brown talks about this in her work. She talks a lot about empathy. The root of empathy is actually not just your ability to understand where someone else is coming from. It actually has everything to do with your own ability to sit with and understand your own feelings, and so if someone has a hard time doing that or would rather not, or feelings aren't safe or that's a weakness or whatever that means to you, that's going to influence how you might be able to empathize with your partner who is telling you that they're struggling or that they didn't like how you just said the thing that you just said. You know like you're building a real confidence from the inside, but it's more emotionally whole because it's based in your own feelings, you know Wow.
Speaker 2:That's really powerful because it reminds me of situations where I've had to tell friends who are coming to me for relationship advice and I've said to a few people who didn't like me that much afterward but I believe in telling people the truth and if I tell people the truth with compassion and if they can't handle it, then I just stopped telling you the truth. I'll just tell you what you want it. Well, it depends. I might stop being your friend after that, but if you're a good friend for a long time and I know you're someone who can't handle the truth that you're really just looking for an amen corner like yep, you're so right, I won't be your amen corner when I think you're wrong, but I'll just zip it. But sometimes I have to tell friends, when they're asking my advice, that the best advice I can give them is stop trying to fix your partner, because that's preventing you from looking at all of the things in your own behavior.
Speaker 6:That's contributing to why the two of you are not getting along Exactly, which is back to self-awareness, owning your part in an interaction with someone, which is also where learning how to express yourself like can come in handy. We're all entitled to our feelings. We are not entitled to express them however we want to Like. There are ways of communicating and expressing anger that are healthy, that also don't hurt people, that are also intense and like a really healthy, that are also intense and like a really healthy, like big outlets, and also not harmful, not aggressive, not at anyone else's expense, and so I teach a lot of that in sessions as well, like expressing it in ways that people can hear.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's so rich. Express it in ways that people can hear.
Speaker 6:I love that. How can we relearn to appreciate masculinity? How would that look within a silver lining? Focus on the positive kind of way, but I mean celebrate the strengths of you know, um. Other masculine traits can be like devotion to work traditionally masculine traits, devotion to work, pride in your athleticism, providing for your family, taking care of yourself so you can take care of other people. There are a lot of strengths in that, and so I'm a big fan of highlighting what's so great about that and how, like, if I'm in a relationship with someone, I would highlight that I benefit, like I get to do what I do because of the things that you do too, which is great. And then I would also really highlight if, um, if you, if someone struggles with being vulnerable and letting their guard down, like showing the softer side, more vulnerable feelings, I would highlight how strong that is to me to hear that, to see that, because it's really powerful, and I want to show you that it is not only safe but celebrated to do that. So more of that, please.
Speaker 2:You know I love that and I actually do that, and you know, I thank Matt for being vulnerable with me and let him know that I'm honored that he chose me because he has friends, he has family, he has lots of other people he can talk to and most often, I think he chooses to talk to me about things. So I think that's wonderful, but I also let him know how much I appreciate that and how much it brings us closer together. Thank you, amy Berrafato, for joining us today for this important discussion. If you're in the Chagokagalan area and you're looking for a great therapist with an open perspective on men and boys, among other things, you can find Amy Barifato online. Amy, tell us how to reach you and who you serve.
Speaker 6:Thank you again for having me. It's been a really enjoyable conversation. Yes, you can find me online and my contact info is on my website, which is wwwamybarifatolmatocom. Thank you so much, you're welcome. Thank you.
Speaker 2:In closing, let's move beyond the toxic masculinity narrative to celebrate the positive contributions of masculine men and boys in our lives. By understanding the historical context of the term toxic masculinity, we can better appreciate the need for a balanced view that honors all aspects of gender identity. Relationships thrive on mutual respect, understanding and celebrating each person's unique quality, including those traditionally seen as masculine. Here's to masculinity, love and the richness it brings to our families and communities. If you're getting value from this content, leave us a view wherever you get your podcast to make it easier for others to find us.
Speaker 2:Until next time, friends, I'm your host, deantoinette Lee, your wellness warrior here at the New Normal Big Life podcast. I hope one day to see you on the river, in the back country or in the horse barn living your best life. Tag new normal big life or nnblblog on social media so we can celebrate your good health and big life. If you're a visual learner, you can watch an informative and entertaining version of this video on YouTube on the New Normal Big Life channel. Share this episode with someone who needs it, comment on our posts and drop us a message or email Nothing too personal or specific when you have a health or adventure sports topic you want us to cover and support others in this community Since 2012,.
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