How We Break Free from Alcohol with Ellie Nova

Sometimes the things we reach for to cope slowly become the things we feel trapped by. A glass of wine at the end of a long day. Something to take the edge off anxiety. Something that promises connection, relaxation, or a moment of relief from the noise of everyday life.

In this week’s episode of A Thought I Kept, I talk to sober coach, sober mentor, and writer Ellie Nova about our relationship with alcohol, emotions, and the stories many of us carry about coping.

Ellie shares the thought that changed everything for her: there is nothing wrong with you.

For years she believed that struggling with alcohol meant she was broken. But through a different way of understanding addiction, emotions, and self-compassion, she began to see something else entirely. Not a personal failure, but a human response to pain, loneliness, and the ways many of us learn to numb what we feel.

Together we explore why alcohol can become intertwined with everyday emotional life from anxiety and overwhelm to loneliness, shame, and the longing to belong. We talk about the cultural stories that tell us drinking helps us relax, connect, and cope, and what happens when those stories start to feel less true.

About Ellie Nova:

Ellie is a sober coach, sober mentor, writer and mother who lives in Lewes, East Sussex. In 2018, after more than a decade feeling trapped by alcohol and full of shame, she discovered a radical new approach to recovery that changed her life. Now six years free from alcohol - with no desire to drink - Ellie supports courageous women to reclaim their power and break free from alcohol for good. 

Website | Substack | Instagram | Women's sobriety support circle 

Show notes:

This Naked Mind — by Annie Grace

The Little Book of Big Change — by Amy Johnson

Alcohol Explained — by William Porter

The Biology of Desire — by Marc Lewis

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Hi and welcome to this week's episode of A Thought I Kept, a weekly podcast about the one idea that stayed. I'm your host, Claire Fitzsimmons, and today's gu, I think is truly transformational, and I am somebody that tries desperately to avoid the word transformational. I am joined by Ellie Nova. Ellie is a sober coach, a sober mentor, a writer, and a mother. In 2018, after more than a decade feeling trapped by alcohol and full of shame, she discovered a radical new approach to recovery that changed her life. Now six years free from alcohol, with no desire to drink, Ellie supports courageous women to reclaim their power and to break free from alcohol for good. Today, we're going to talk about what happened six years ago and what the thought was that led to such a pivotal moment in her life. In our conversation together, we talk about what it means to feel deeply in a world that often tells us we're too much. We've both had experiences of being told that we're too sensitive, that what we were feeling was inappropriate or too much, or not for those moments or those situations or with those people. We explore emotions, how we learn to suppress them, numb them, even manage them. And that alcohol does play a role, or we believe that alcohol plays a role in that processing. And it's a role that we come to not just personally but culturally. We live in a culture that offers certain beliefs about alcohol that we believe are serving us until the moment that we start to realize that maybe they're not. And maybe that something is yourself. Here's my conversation with Ellie. Hi Ellie, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you so much for having me on, Claire.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

I'm really looking forward to a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Me too. I have been looking forward to this one. I have so many questions for you. But before we get into it, I'm curious about how you're arriving here today.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Ah, yeah. I'm I don't know why I always look out the window. It's a bit rainy today. I always look out the window. I don't know why to connect to outside and to nature, I think. But yeah, I'm good. I I I did some strength training this morning that I've started doing recently, and that makes me feel really good. It's lovely, like community connection and you know, good for good for my body. Um so yeah, I'm feeling quite steady this morning.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

I spoke to one of my dad's friends yesterday, and she was talking about the weather, and I realized I hadn't looked up and noticed the weather for about three days. So it's interesting how we look out the window as a sort of way of steadying sometimes and orientating ourselves. And that when we don't do that, you realize just how much you can be in the busyness and the pull of life, and not really in the moment. I understand the need sometimes just to look out the window and understand where you are in relation to something.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yes, yeah, absolutely. And it's just a gift. Like I could see the trees of the nature reserve, and yeah, it's just fills my heart with gratitude.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

It's so nice. So every week on the podcast, I ask my guests the same question. And that is what is the one thought that has stayed with you out of all the ideas? What's the one that you've kept?

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yeah, so I I I can put it in a concise way, and then you know, I know we'll explore it more, but but I guess in a sentence, the thought I've kept is that you're not broken, you're not there's nothing wrong with you. You know what? Yes, the thought I've kept is there's nothing wrong with you. Yeah, and that's the thought that's yeah, changed my life.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

There is so much to that. Okay, where should we start? So, how did you hear that? Like, how did you receive that?

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Yeah, so this is for me, it's in particular relation to my journey with alcohol and quitting drinking, but it relates to so much more than that. But in that particular part of my journey, it was through a book called This Naked Mind by Annie Grace. And it was a complete reframing of so my I had the belief that because I was struggling with alcohol, there was something wrong with me, right? And I was defective and different from other people, I was full of shame. I thought I had to call myself an alcoholic. I read Annie Grace's book and her whole approach, belief system, I guess you could call it, is that the problem is the drug. It's alcohol is a highly addictive drug. If you get addicted to it, that makes sense. You're a human, you know, so many people do. And that, yeah, there's nothing wrong with the person. There are so many reasons that some of us become addicted to this drug, just like people can become addicted to anything, really. And so I then from that point went on this journey of exploring things in a much more compassionate and accepting way than this belief that there's something wrong with me. I have an illness that I'll have for the rest of my life. You know, that's just I found so disempowering and frightening. To going, oh, okay, there's nothing wrong with me. It makes sense I've become addicted to an addictive drug. And there is a path out of here, which, yeah, was a whole is just it honestly, Claire. I mean, it changed my life. It allowed me to quit drinking. You know, I'm now six years free from alcohol, hugely thanks to that thought, that complete reframe.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

And that is so extraordinary. And before that, had you had any other thoughts around drinking that were offered to you that didn't work in the way that you needed them to, that did feel disempowering, like you said.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Yeah, 100%. I mean, mostly, you know, people just said, just stop. It's obviously bad for you, which I was very aware of. Uh just so just stop. Like, okay, I would love to. That's sort of my whole thing. I wish I could. And of course I couldn't, because that that's that that I I understand why some people would have said that to me, but it does rather misunderstand how addiction works and how, you know, it I I wasn't physically addicted. This is an emotional addiction, but on my brain had I had trained it, with you know, not deliberately, but I trained it to want and need to need the the alcohol. So just stopping is just not possible. And then I did go to AA in my very early 20s and probably 21, and I found that the community aspect, the connection with other people, the solidarity was really beautiful. However, there was also the belief system that I encountered there was you have to say, I have, you know, you say, Hi, I'm Ellie, and I'm an alcoholic. I would have had to say that for the rest of my life. No, no, you know, no matter how many years you're free from alcohol, you're still supposed to say that. The belief that it's a disease, it's incurable, you can only sort of live with it and just, you know, avoid your triggers and avoid the drug itself. And I also it seemed to rather rely again on willpower and just stopping, which I just couldn't do because, and I only then realized this years later, thanks to Annie Grace's book, because I I was using it to cope with my emotions, to cope with kind of being alive and being a human. And you can't just take that away. You can't just stop that and then have a void. And I didn't find that anybody had any guidance on, you know, if you remove the alcohol, well, what do you do instead? You're just supposed to kind of white knuckle it for the rest of your life. And I just I couldn't do that. It wasn't even like a decision I made. I I literally couldn't do it because I did have a lot of emotional pain and and I had the belief that that this drug is helping me. So yeah, that didn't work for me. And then I spent many, many more years continuing to drink until it was like a miracle came to me in the form of this book, which yeah, just transformed my life.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

So at that time, were you looking for an alternate solution? Were you looking for what were you looking for in that book when you came to it?

SPEAKER_00 8:55

That's a good question. Lots of people ask me that, Clay. Yeah. I mean, I'd thing is I'd realize I had a problem with alcohol at the age of 19. It was very, very obvious to me from that point. But as I say, all that seemed to be available was just stop and go to AA. Literally, there's nothing else. Or go to rehab, I guess, you know, cost a fortune and not very effective. So, you know, I'd just essentially been hoping for, trying to find a way to quit, yeah, for like 10, just over 10 years. So anything that the universe sent me, I was like, I'll explore that. But of course, it unfortunately didn't send me very much. Um, so I actually, so I'd always, you know, there I saw something that was like, you know, this is how you quit or reduce, it's like, hey, I'll try that. And I happened upon a, I mean, I was reading Buzzfeed, as I still do for the celebrity gossip. Oh gosh, I can't remember the exact title, but it was, you know, how to reduce your drinking or how to cut down on drinking. Here's here's some, it was a list. They used to do all these lists, you know, with ideas. And a few links down was a link to This Naked Mind. And I clicked on it, and I didn't buy it straight away because it's called uh This Naked Mind um oh control alcohol on the front. And I didn't want to like read it out in public and people see. So I I actually got a different book called that that she recommended in her podcast called The Little Book of Big Change by Amy Johnson. And I thought I was like, okay, I'll can read that. That's a glass. Yeah, that's fine. But I listened to Annie's podcasts and it just, yeah, Claire, honestly, I just couldn't, it was a revelation how she was talking about it. And and I went for immediately, straight off the bat, I went for 10 days without drinking, which for me was massive, without even trying. It was incredible because the whole approach is that you don't need to use willpower, you don't need to try. This is an exploration and a discovery. So it was, I was looking, and I had been looking for years, but it was, you know, this just by chance or whatever it is. Not really chance, is it? Because I was looking, but I I happened upon this, and yeah, and there we go.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

And the real shifts, then it sounds like there was something about understanding something of the biology around it, all the neuroscience around it, even about how it impacts your brain, but also your body. Sounds like there's something about understanding emotional processing and regulation and emotional pain. So it sounds like when you read The Naked Mind, there was something about replacing willpower and discipline with something around compassion and was it curiosity? And so I'm curious about like how did that curiosity really start to change your relationship to drinking?

SPEAKER_00 11:39

And you mentioned as well, Claire, about the the biology and the neuroscience of it as well, which was huge. So, yeah, the compassion and the curiosity. I mean, what I mean, that's just such a revelation that that that's possible. So rather than this critical voice that's like, what's wrong with you? This is so shameful, you're not normal, this shouldn't have happened to you, you know, which I I had for years in my head because we grow up with ideas, right, of what an alcoholic is. And, you know, I had ideas that the somebody who becomes addicted to alcohol, that how shameful, how pathetic, how awful the judgment. It was also permission to be compassionate to myself and go, yeah, any well, it makes sense. Like, yeah, because you know, I've been through some stuff and I hadn't been, you know, held and supported, like sadly, not many of us are when we're kids and young people, you know, and then our culture has this socially sanctioned drug, which we're all supposed to drink like normally anyway. Like, of course, it makes sense that you would struggle with this. And I mean, even just when I share that, you know, I just feel like something relaxing, like, oh, it's okay, it's okay, you know? And then the curiosity piece. So again, oh, what a revelation. Something so much gentler than oh, you know, holding on, like, I must not drink, I must not drink today, I must not drink. And like the idea that that was going to be every day for the rest of my life, trying not to drink. I mean, I've heard people say to me that they're like, that's such a depressing prospect, they'd rather just drink. So, with this alternative idea of curiosity, what it means is that if you do drink, it's okay. So the goal is to, with your own experience as well as the information you learn about how alcohol really works on our brains and bodies, which I wasn't aware of before, you bring all that together and you you embark upon this journey, which does take time, so that every time you drink, you learn, you reflect, you understand yourself better, you go, okay, what was going on for me? You know, why did I want to drink that time? What was I feeling? What was I needing? What was I hoping alcohol was going to do for me? What might I need to do next time to help myself? And you continue like that, and you continue noticing the messages we get from society adverts, TV, movies, friends, family. Alcohol's amazing. Alcohol's great. Does that match with my experience? Does that match with what I'm reading? Hmm, interesting. And you keep going and you keep going until one day, this is my experience, and I hope this for other people, of course, you get to a point where you don't want to drink anymore and you don't even have the thought or desire to drink, which is where I'm at there. And it's just total freedom. So I I, as you can tell, I really believe in this approach with just so much passion because it's it's given me my life back, it's given me a new life in a way. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Tell me something. So you've said a few times that you came to realise the impact that alcohol does have on our bodies and our brains. What what did you come to realize?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

What's that piece? Yeah, so so much. And as I said, this naked mind was really helpful to read Alcohol Explained by William Porter, The Biology of Desire by Mark Lewis. So this is about understanding when we it's easy to think, isn't it? We have a drink, oh, I feel relaxed or confident, whatever. Okay. It's so helpful to actually know what's going on. So I mean, there's there's so much, and I won't go into all of it, but for example, the feeling of relaxation comes from the change in our neurochemistry that alcohol causes. So it it suppresses glutamate, which is a is a really important chemical, which helps to keep us awake and alert, and it increases GABA, which helps us to feel relaxed, right? So you feel immediately kind of super relaxed, right? So you oh, but which sounds great. It's like, oh, well, I want to feel immediately relaxed, don't we? All right. But our amazing, credible bodies do not want that to happen. That that's completely everything's gone out of balance, right? So the alcohol temporarily creates that imbalance, which kind of feels good. But then our body, amazing, amazing body, does everything it can to process this poison we've taken into our bodies and to get our brains back into balance. And that process involves pushing up the glutamate and pushing down the GABA, flooding our bodies with cortisol and adrenaline. And that manifests as a terrible night's sleep that messes up our sleep really badly. You know, I don't know if people watching this will relate to that, waking up at 3 a.m. full of anxiety, a heart race, and you can't sleep properly. The next day, the anxiety that you get a lot of people have from a hangover. This is all because our body's gone, whoa, let's get back into balance. So that's one of the things, and you know, it's a it's a sedative. So that causes the sort of muscle relaxation. If you drink too much, you pass out. I mean, if you really drink too much, it kills you. So that's a reframing, isn't it? Of like lovely relaxation, going, oh my God, I'm drinking something that's sedating me. Is that what I want to do? So that was a that was a big one to learn that and and learn how it it ruins our sleep. And again, I just didn't, I didn't know this, Claire. No one had told me. Everyone just said alcohol's great, you're the one with the problem. And then I start reading about it and go, this is a horrible drug. Like, why was I why was I believing that this was helping me? And there's lots of other things, but those, those are some of the big ones that for me, yeah, was just like eye-opening to learn that about yeah, what it was actually doing.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Yeah, what struck me about what you just said is so often we think that we go to alcohol for various reasons, but it's very much connected with the emotions that lead us to have a drink. And we'll come on to what those emotions are maybe in a moment. It really makes me think about the impact it has afterwards on our emotional lives. So that experience of feeling anxiety, because I was preparing for this. I had um this week I was celebrating something. I'd had some champagne on Wednesday night, we were celebrating, and the next day I was so anxious. And probably for the first time, I wondered, and I wondered that curiosity piece. I was like, I wonder if it's connected. Like I wonder if there's something to that. And I think that idea about stepping into curiosity, but not just noticing it's impacting my sleep, but noticing just how much it impacts our feelings, and that those impacts don't just happen five minutes after, two hours after, they happen a day after. And it has that sort of that ripple effect outside of that initial moment of having a drink.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yes, that's exactly it, Claire. And and well done to you. That's amazing for you to just bring that awareness and just and it's like connecting the dots, isn't it? So, so because we can do we might just think, oh, I'm anxious today. I don't really know why, maybe, you know, and and of course, there's so many things that affect affect that, though, isn't there? But it's so useful, isn't it, to go, oh that is interesting because I did have some alcohol yesterday. And you know, then you could notice that next time does that happen again, and then you might notice a pattern, and then you might think, well, I don't know if it's really worth it, you know, to do what, you know, and just making a more informed choice. So, you know, if if people you might, from your own experience, go, you know what, I it it is worth it for me to drink on occasion, and that's great, you know. But also if we're empowered with this information about how it really works, then we can make informed choices and go, gosh, I didn't realize it was doing that to me. I don't want to be doing that. And but but with this, because this information I think still isn't widely known, you know, a lot of people are drinking and not really realizing what this drug is doing because of the messaging we receive from when we're kids that alcohol is what did uh they say in America recently, um, it's a social lubricant, you know. And if you're just told that all the time, you believe it. Of course you do. We're told so many beliefs, aren't we? Um, and it's only once you read the books you find the information you start to explore that you might start to question these beliefs we've been given and go, well, I don't know if this is actually true for me.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

So what's the belief that particularly gets to you? So there's the belief that alcohol makes you more social. There's a belief that it helps us connect. Maybe there's a belief that we're more fun when we drink. Like my business partner has been sober for a while, and she makes this tote bag that says sober, not boring. There's a belief that we're more fun if we drink. What's the belief that gets to you that you keep seeing again and again that you just want to scream about?

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Oh man, I think, yeah, the the big one. I mean, there are a lot there. One of the big ones is I think, yes, the belief that alcohol, as you said, helps us connect and have fun. And uh, I I actually saw it on that show, uh, Nobody Wants This. There's a scene where the main character, and then there's this other character who she doesn't really get along with, and they they're at a basketball match and they all get really drunk and they have a great time and they become busy mates, and there's apparently no downsides to it. They don't end up yelling at each other or throwing up in the toilet or whatever, they're all having a lovely time. And that makes me furious, Claire, because I just feel like I'm just it they are perpetuating that belief. But maybe, you know, maybe the people, the cast and the crew and everyone believes that, so it's not sort of um malicious, but um yeah, things like that. Because I just think that it's just so hard for people who are then are questioning their relationship because then you're given these other messages and you go, Oh, I don't know, maybe maybe it is me that's the problem because I'm seeing that they're all having a great time. Although, of course, it's really important to remember they're not drinking alcohol in that show, they're drinking iced tea or whatever, you know. So, so always remember that. If you see people in a movie having a good time with booze, then not drinking booze. It just frustrates me because it it then obviously it makes it hard. We have to do a lot of this work on our own or with other people that understand to really question these these beliefs, which we're just given like every day, like from so many different areas. So yeah, I do get frustrated by that.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

When drinking is framed as social, how has that connected to ideas of loneliness and disconnection? For you. Like, have there been moments that you have found yourself turning to alcohol because of a need to belong, a need to fit in, a need to even be think you're being present, even though maybe it doesn't have that result.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

That's it. A hundred percent clear. And I and for so many people, this is the case, isn't it? Drinking to belong and fit in, feel accepted, which are such core human needs. Like we need that. And then we're sold this idea that alcohol is the root to that. That that just breaks my heart. Um, and it's understandable. And there's a lot of pieces around that, aren't there? There's the there's the cultural expectations. So people are like, well, everyone else drinking. Sometimes people put pressure on other people to drink. There's also, you know, most of us feel some kind of anxiety around socializing, some more than others, especially people who are neurodivergent. But just I think it's also just really normal for people to feel that. But instead of kind of going, oh, okay, well, that's just we all feel a bit nervous to begin with, and then you kind of relax a bit as you get to know people. But again, there's the idea that yeah, alcohol is going to be the route to that. And I mean, yeah, massively that. I mean, there were so many reasons I drank there, it sort of became the answer to everything. But that was definitely part of it. And I kind of believed, especially when I was younger, that it was making me confident. Because it what it does is it another thing it does to our brains is it shuts down our prefrontal cortex and our ability to feel fear and assess risk and danger, right? So we think we feel confident, but actually a really amazing part of our brain is being shut down. You know, that's why people end up doing really dangerous things when they're really drunk, because they're not able to assess risk. So it that that works in a social situation because we don't feel that same anxiety and fear. But then, as you said, Claire, the actual result is okay, yes, it's suppressing the fear and anxiety for a bit, but then as we said, it brings it up. But it's actually taking us away from people. It's making us, it's taking away from ourselves and making us less ourselves and taking us away from other people. Like so many of us remember, like having conversations that you don't remember the next day. Connection is that are we really being ourselves with other people in all our vulnerability and in and anxiety, or are we changing our brains and becoming someone else in the hope that we'll find acceptance and belonging? That's a question to yeah, ponder.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Well, it's really interesting when I see your work, though, is that you bring in so much connection and belonging, but through sobriety. And I'm curious about that piece, this idea that connection exists in this other way. Connection exists in freedom from alcohol. And you talk about that in terms of how we come together to support each other through being curious about being alcohol-free. Or how do you see this connection with sobriety and collective support or connection?

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yeah, yeah, it's because in our culture, in a capitalistic culture, there is a kind of belief that we're supposed to be on our own, sorting out our problems, and that our problems are a personal problem as well, that it doesn't relate to bigger, wider problems. And one of those is disc greater disconnection that we have in our culture. So they're kind of linked because when we feel more alone, disconnected, that often means for many of us we want to drink alcohol because we feel so lonely. So that connection with others is such a key part of this journey. The the the friendships and the closeness I have with people now that I'm, you know, six years sober, and like compared to before, it's just, you know, so I've met the relationships I've made with existing friends, the new friendships I've made. It is such a lie that alcohol brings connection. It brings greater loneliness and disconnection. And if we can be brave enough, and I know how scary it is, especially at the beginning, to start to be with people sober, honestly, like what it opens up is is because we connect on that and you know, authentically, like as ourselves, as I say, in all our vulnerability, and that's what we all long for. We all want that acceptance and connection with another. And if you're doing that without drugs, it's hard and it's scary, but it's the route to real connection. And I just think, like I say, we need more of that in our culture. It's such an essential human need. I run a women's sobriety support circle, and women's circles have actually been a big part of my of my healing because that is something I think we've well with it's coming back, but we had lost in our culture of women, and then men's circles are equally fantastic or circles for any kind of group of people to come together, be, share, hold each other, not trying to fix or solve. It is just transformative. And so having more of that in our lives, whether you struggle with alcohol or not, I bring bring more of that in, you know. It's yeah, it's life-changing.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Can we go on to emotions and alcohol? Because this is such a huge piece, and this is where you and I really start to overlap, actually, because a lot of my work is with women who struggle to validate and notice and understand and be with their emotions. And that can be the perceived positive ones and the perceived negative ones. Has there been I mean it sounds like this book was really revelatory to you in terms of understanding the connection between alcohol and your feelings. What was happening, do you think, for you in terms of and you have spoken about emotional pain and that there was something in alcohol for you that uh you believed helped with that?

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yeah, gosh, it's a b it's a big one, isn't it, Claire? And it's and it's it's such a huge part of this that if we're gonna take away alcohol, what are we gonna do instead, right? So especially if the alcohol has been being used to to try to escape from emotions. So that's what I used it for. So then what do you do instead? So I think like so many of us, and I'll you know, I'll speak for myself, but I think this is very common. You know, I I identify myself as being a very sensitive person. I feel things very, very deeply, very strongly. But you know, in my family, my parents weren't able to hold those feelings or be with those feelings for uh, you know, understandable reasons to do with you know their own lives and experiences. And so I gradually developed this idea that my feelings must be dangerous, shameful. They made other people very uncomfortable and unhappy because of how my parents responded to my emotions. So and I thought there was something so wrong with me that I wasn't able to just suppress my feelings. So that was already in the works. And then my mother died when I was 14. And I was not held with that grief. I mean, I was sent back to school two days after she died. The school, I mean, mentioned it, you know, the first day I was in tears, so they couldn't really ignore it. But after that, it wasn't ever mentioned again. I was just supposed to carry on getting A stars and carry on as normal. So, and I did. I remember the moment, I remember it so clearly the evening when I started to drink to cope without pain. It was in the January of the first term. My dad had just dropped me off at university, and I felt so alone, so unbearably alone. And I had that thought for the first time. I wonder if alcohol will help. Because I've drunk before and I think a ball of red wine from the corner, it made me feel better. And that, and then it's like, okay, that's it, man. You know, because it did seem to help me escape from the emotions, which, you know, the emotions and feelings in my own body, which I was afraid of. I was afraid of them and I didn't, and I and I didn't believe I could be with them. I thought they were wrong and bad. And then this drug comes along, which, because it's, you know, as I've explained about the sedating us, seems to offer relief. And then I was using it for all painful emotions to try to cope. So yeah, when I then started this real journey to I I mean, I sometimes call it breaking free from alcohol. Oh, okay. I had to, I had to kind of be like, right, Ellie, if you're gonna stop drinking this stuff, you've you've got to learn to be with these feelings. And it's really hard because as you can imagine, there was a lot there, like so much grief and yeah, so much pain. Yeah, it was a real practice of just being loving to myself for the first time in my life, which yeah, was hard. But wow, where I am now and how I treat myself compared to how I used to treat myself is really amazing. I feel emotional, kind of thinking about it, because it really is apart from being cruel to myself without realizing it, to being just so loving and being the loving parent that I wish I'd had, who's like, yeah, you're feeling sad. That's okay. Yeah, there's grief here, that's really hard. That being so compassionate to myself rather than going, I don't want to hear it, drink this poison and stop talking about it, which is essentially what we do when we drink to cope with feelings. We're telling ourselves, I don't want to hear it, I don't want this feeling here, you know. And it's yeah, it's a it's a cruel way to treat ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Why do you think we're so afraid of our feelings? What's the fear?

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Oh, that's such a good question. I mean, I what the first thing that came into my mind was that part around belonging, and it certainly was for me because I'd seen that, you know, mirrored back to me by so many adults in my life that when I would express my feelings, they looked angry, disgusted, you know, upset, whatever it was. Um that I suppose I felt like, well, if I these feelings will make people hate me and abandon me, and I can't be abandoned. So there's sort of something about, yeah, desperately wanting to be loved and accepted, and kind of if I don't have feelings, I'll be loved and accepted. And also when feelings are very strong, and as I mentioned, about being highly sensitive, um, and also having, you know, experiences, say, of grief, where obviously those are huge feelings. I think there's there was I had the belief that if I if I went into them, they would just take me over and consume me and I'd never get out of them. The irony is although alcohol sort of provides a bit of an escape, often it would magnify my feelings. I mean, alcohol over time makes us so depressed and anxious. It makes it, you know, it it's it's a factor in when you know, people take their own lives because it changes our brains. It lies to us and makes us believe things that aren't true. So it we think it's helping, but actually it makes everything so much worse. So, yeah, it was such a practice for me of really gently being with these feelings. And this is what we said about compassion and curiosity, being so gentle with it. You don't have to dive right into the, you know, it's a little bit here and there, see how it feels, come come out of it. That's okay. You don't need to, you know, go into it all the way, and just gradually building up that trust with ourselves that it's like I can be with this and it's not gonna kill me. This feeling isn't gonna kill me, it hurts, but it's okay. And the more we can be with them, the more that they unfold and pass as they need to, right? It's so funny, isn't it, that when we try and escape them, it makes them so much bigger. When we're with them, we notice them and acknowledge them. They go, Oh, you're listening to me. Oh, I'm allowed to be here. Oh, okay, you accept me, I'm okay, and then move on, you know. That that's the yeah, kind of miracle that I've found with with turning towards rather than trying to run away.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Yes, that's extraordinary, isn't it? So, what do you now believe about feelings?

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Oh, they're just part of being human. That's the deal, it's the deal clay. You know what? I don't know why we were sort of brought up to think we're supposed to be what kind of happy and fine all the time, otherwise something's terribly wrong. And I now know that aren't we in what incredible, complex beings we are, the range of emotions we can feel, what how extraordinary, what a gift. And acknowledging, I'm totally acknowledging some of those are a lot harder to feel than others. I'm not like, you know, trying to say it's all wonderful, but what a gift to to be a human on this earth for the brief time we get to be here, and we feel it all the love, grief, joy, sadness, but even things like shame, which are some of the hardest feelings to feel, they're all part of being human. They all have a place, they all have things that they want to tell us and share with us, they all have a wisdom to them. And yeah, when we turn towards them, get curious about them, ask them, Oh, yeah, so what's that like for you? It just's all right. Everything kind of settles down a bit. And I mean, I wish I'd been told this, Claire, when I was a kid, but there we go.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

It's I'm glad I've come to it now. Now that you've accepted your it sounds like your emotions as valid, as really vital signals for you, as the way that you do stay connected to yourself, and you understand yourself as a like a big feeling person that you are sensitive. That's how you show up in the world. How, because we are relational, how do the people around you come to understand that shift for you and who you are in relation to your feelings as being more more accepting and validating? I am sensitive, I am a big feeling person, I accept my feelings for what they are, I understand them, and yet we are in relationship. So there is the person that says, but you're so emotional, but you're so sensitive. See what you mean. You're so definitely like your grief is not what it's supposed to be. How do you understand that? But also what do you do with that?

SPEAKER_00 36:06

That's such a good question, Claire. Oh, that's and it, you know, a medium like, oh, because I can think of experiences and it's oh, there's pain, there's like electricity shots of pain. Yeah, it's hard. Oh my gosh, it is, you know, I do find that really hard actually. I just feel safest, I guess, around other people who are able to share their feelings and and be vulnerable. And I I I like I find small talk excruciating because I just want to like come on, get to their heart and you know, tell me how you really are. And I just love that. But of course, exactly. As you say, we're relational beings, we exist in communities with all different kinds of people, people who, some people who are very, very, very uncomfortable being with their feelings and sharing their feelings. And I'm not gonna lie to you, Claire, it's an ongoing practice for how I relate to people who are very different from me. And an ongoing practice, I do find it very hard. And I think a lot of it is around being really compassionate to myself. Yes, Ellie, you find that hard. And also having compassion for the other person and understanding things from their perspective. Because for me, as I said, I feel safer when people are being really vulnerable. I'm becoming increasingly aware that some people find it very unsafe to be around people like me who are like sharing all of their feelings. And that's important for me to acknowledge and to respect and understand. It doesn't mean I have to change how I am, but just so that for example, if somebody kind of shuts me down or looks very uncomfortable, which is very triggering to me, then can I also understand, oh, okay, Ellie, but that's they look uncomfortable in the way that you look uncomfortable when somebody doesn't want to talk about their feelings, you know? So yeah, it can be really hard and yeah, very much an ongoing process for me. And I think people, those people, you know, there's a saying, isn't it? These people are teachers and they're gifts and we're not supposed to be just about people who are like us all the time.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Yes, yeah, that's a really important piece. Yeah. Let's go on to the self-care aspects maybe of alcohol. Because I suppose what happens sometimes is we it's a Tuesday in the middle of winter, we get home from work, we are stressed, and there is a ritual of what we perceive as self-care around it, which is we have a drink and that is a de-stressor, and we put it in the bucket of like we are kind of caring for ourselves because we're we're doing this. How have you come to see like alcohol and self-being alcohol free rather and self-care? Like, what are your rituals around that now?

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Yeah. I would in full transparency, I don't have many rituals. I I did when I was quitting, but I have a five-year-old son and uh since becoming a motherfucker rituals. Ritual sounds nice. Um I you know, and I know there are people who are still able, you know, you just you can shift things to have rituals when you have small children, but I don't do that so much. But what I what I do, Claire, is I it's it's that phrase, I guess, meeting myself in the moment. So really it's a practice of having the awareness of how I'm feeling and especially noticing when there is stress or anxiety and pausing and going, okay, anxiety is here or stress is here. Okay, what do I need in this moment? And kind of going with that, you know. And so that might mean I need to say to my husband, okay, this evening I really need to do some journaling. You know, can you look after our son while I'm doing some journaling? Or being out in nature, I mean, gosh, that's always the that's never not the answer, actually, being out in nature more, because I I personally find I can just really be myself in nature and I notice how much calmer I feel just being in nature. Yeah, it really is. It depends anytime. You know, sometimes though, it's not a relaxing thing. If I'm feeling angry, okay, the practice is I need to go and punch a pillow upstairs or scream into a pillow. I really believe in that when you know, we're not supposed to be calm and regulated all the time. Yeah, I am definitely not. Um, so that's what I mean, that it's always a practice of what is with me right now. So yeah, I don't have sort of set rituals. Oh, I actually the only ritual I do have, if you can call it that, is the end of every day. I write down three things I'm grateful for. And I've done that since I started quitting drinking, because that helps that perspective shift of noticing the good in our lives, you know, and just being thankful for that alongside the difficult stuff.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

These five words that we have. There's some words that I just want to just see what comes up for you because I think so much of this is it's very personal, but so culturally embedded. And the words that we use in relation to this carry so much meaning. And one of the words that keeps coming up for me around this sometimes is forgiveness. And I know that you write about this too. What has forgiveness come to mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Oh my gosh, forgiveness, that is a big one. That is a big one. Something I'm probably still walking with. Whenever I hear that word redemption, I just like, oh, it just gets me, Claire, because I I think I have such a longing for it, for forgiveness and redemption. Because I think, despite everything I've shared and all the journey I've been on, there is still a part of me, there is still a little part of me that is like, maybe I am unlovable, maybe there is something wrong with me. And so that idea of complete forgiveness is just, I do still have a longing for that. Maybe that will always be with me. I don't know. At the same time, you know, I think around that being self-compassionate, forgiveness is part of that. And and there's so many things that I feel so ashamed of. Oh, when I think of my younger self though, I just love her. She was doing her best, you know, and and did so many things which people thought were really shameful and terrible. And I'm just like, oh, she was trying so hard, and she was, you know, I think I forgive her in a way. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Yes. I mean, that's the other word that I see coming up a lot is shame. And what's what has shame now come to mean to you? So now that you bring forgiveness to that and curiosity to that and compassion to that, yeah. What is shame to you now? Knowing that all emotions are valid and welcome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Shame, I think, is the hardest emotion to be with. It's pretty much the most important thing for us because we we are, we grew up to be in social groups, we've evolved to be that way. If we're cast out of the of the group, we would have probably died. So it's just, I think when we feel shame, it's to acknowledge how important that is, and and it, and that pain is is so it makes sense that we feel that much pain because we can another, we can often feel a feeling, can't we then judge the feeling? So if we can say, oh, this shame is really hard to be with, and that makes I also heard once that some something around shame is that and the other side of shame is the the longing to be loved and to kind of see it as the two sides of the coin. And again, there's a wisdom in it. There's something that it wants to share with us and say. So again, being curious about it, but I also just yeah, I want to really acknowledge I find it so painful to be with shame. And so I never want to sugarcoat anything and or suggest that I'm like, you know, I just can completely relate to my feelings with ease because that is a that's a tough one.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

It's a really hard emotion to feel.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

I agreed. Okay, what about freedom? Oh, yeah. That's I know that's what I have, Claire, honestly. You know, when I was drinking, I felt that alcohol had power over me. I didn't have power and agency in my own life. That's that's what it felt like. So to now be free from the desire to drink, so I'm not, as I said, I'm not white knuckling it. I'm I don't have to avoid pubs and restaurants and whatever. I'm just living my life. It doesn't, I don't have to think about what, you know, when I'm is there going to be Alcohol at this event, or how do I make sure I don't drink too much? It's just the headspace free. It's just like, what gift? And and to not feel controlled by this drug. I honest, I can't put it into words, Claire, but freedom is if there is a word, that is the word of just. And then, like I say, it's honestly, it's like I felt like I have been reborn. I've been given a second chance at life that I never thought I would have back in my 20s. I didn't know this was possible for me, Claire. I am just grateful beyond words for what I've been given. Yeah. Yeah. I never thought I would have this freedom than I do.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

So that's so extraordinary. My next word is courage. And you said something at the beginning about being brave enough. And that really struck me that bravery is connected to this. Yeah. What does courage mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Courage is a good word, isn't it? Because I remember hearing from Brene Brown that it's it's from the French for I don't know how to pronounce it, but cur the heart, isn't it? So it's some it's something about being connected to your heart and your heart's longings. And something about that is there's still a vulnerability with it, but it's doing something bravely, acknowledging the feeling and and the maybe the fear and the pain, but you do it because you know this is connected to your heart's longings and desires. And I think that so many of us, we're struggling with alcohol, but it doesn't really sit with us, with who we are, with our values, with what's important to us, with how we want to treat ourselves. So I think that having the courage to go, I'm gonna look at this, I'm gonna be so brave, and I'm gonna accept that I am struggling. And I'm gonna start to have a look at what is really going on here and looking at these beliefs I have about alcohol, about myself. Oh my gosh, the courage that takes. And and it's and to that whole journey of breaking free, it's really hard. And I, I, you know, I call it, it's like you're a warrior if you're on that path. I know how hard it is to break free of a substance that you're addicted to. My gosh, and with the stigma around that. So everyone, anyone even just starting on that journey, you have so much courage and what an amazing person you are, and keep going with it, you know. That's what I would say.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Then I think we should go to the last words, uh they are sober coach. That like lovely dovetails into what we haven't talked about, which is what you do, how you do support people through that, and people who are just at different, I suppose, stages of their journeys. So, what is sober coaching?

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Yeah, it's I think a fairly new new concept, isn't it? So it's really unlike sort of therapy where you would, you know, go back over past and and which by the way is super helpful and and can really be important part of this journey. I meet people, okay, let's look at the alcohol piece, let's look at where you're at now. And as we've talked about, Claire, it's looking at what beliefs do you have that are causing you to drink? What are you believing about how alcohol is helping you? And let's bring those up into the light, let's have a look at them and explore whether they're true. So, in a coaching conversation, it's a lot of asking questions and being curious and helping somebody to really explore what I am really believing here, and then supporting people to explore what their needs are. What needs do they have that they think alcohol is meeting that that actually could be met in other ways? And this is very unique to everyone, you know, in what you might need in each moment and just generally in your life. So it's looking at someone's whole life and what do they need more of? What do they maybe need less of, you know, some especially things like work and the stress that can cause, there might be shifts that need to be made there. So it's really, yeah, looking, supporting somebody to explore these deeper things. And so it isn't using, I don't, you know, as I say, practice willpower. It's it's really getting to the heart of things and with this approach of curiosity, gentle exploration. You know, I I my deepest wish is for all my clients to get to that place of freedom, whether that's being completely alcohol-free or to just be drinking massively less. That's what I that's what I support people with.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

It sounds like such is such important work. At what stage do they come to you? Like what's the what's the question that they have?

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Yes. So I'd say the common commonality across everyone that comes to me is that they have tried to quit or cut down and often, interestingly, have often had periods of a few months of be of not drinking, but have been using willpower. So then they're like, I, but I, you know, I quit. But then I grew I went back and it gradually crept up again. So they have tried to quit. They tried to do it on their own, and and they're just like, I can't, it's just not sticking. And and they they're at that place of either ex are either acceptance of, okay, I I haven't got a handle on this. And often that piece around, you know, I can't just have one. Or they're in that minimal space of going, I think that's me. I don't know. It's so, you know, um, I don't know if I want to quit forever, but but they have they have done a lot of the work already, and now they're like, all right, I really need some help to to really really make some big changes and shifts for for lasting change so that I can really change my relationship with alcohol.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

So tell me, let's go back to your thought that you brought, which is you are not broken and there isn't something wrong with you. It sounds like this is fundamentally threaded through your life. Like it has this seismic transformational impact on who you are and how you now live your life and how you support others. How would you hope other people then might remember this and might turn to this?

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it applies to to anyone with whatever you're walking with, you you're not broken, there's nothing wrong with you. And and and how does that land? I wonder if anyone listening, if you say to yourself, I'm not broken, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm enough of this, or the tears come up. It's like, Ellie, you're okay. Because what I believe we are all whole, perfect, beautiful humans, and we don't need to fix ourselves, there's nothing wrong. What this journey really is, is one of finding out what we really need, what care we need, what love we need. And I think that through that, then changes happen, you know. Then if we love ourselves so much and take care of ourselves so much that we don't want to escape from ourselves, you know. And I think having that thought of I'm not broken, there's nothing wrong with me, is so deeply compassionate that I think that can be the you know, beginnings of of everything.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Yes, and and of everything. It's not just about a relationship with alcohol.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

It like the thought that you brought today, although we've been speaking very much in that area, it's so much about everything. Yeah. Like seeding something that just has ripples throughout our lives.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Exactly, exactly. I mean, I often say to people, like, it's about the booze, but it's not about the booze, because you know, putting drinking in that is one piece of it. And there are some really specific, you know, tools and practices that help with that. But across the board, you know, it isn't about alcohol. There's about so much deeper stuff and the needs that alcohol's been meeting. And then it's a it's a real journey of self-discovery and exploration and realizations about about what we need. And exactly, this is something that applies to anybody, and we know whatever you're struggling with, that if you can come to that first and and and really be compassionate to yourself and understanding that's kind of the like a foundation for yeah, coming, coming, realizing your own wholeness rather than trying to get to a place where you're fixed and whole. You are already whole. It's just realizing that and loving and accepting all parts of yourself as well.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Thank you, Ellie, for bringing something that is just so I think resonant. So many of us worry, I think, that we're not whole, we're not enough, and that we are broken. So thank you for bringing something that is a really powerful corrective for that. And that I hope, you know, this is about a thought I kept, and often I come away from these conversations hoping that we will hold on to these thoughts, like white knuckle it almost, and be like, I will never let this thought go because this is so vital to my everyday life. This is everything. So thank you so much for what you shared today.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Oh, thank you so much for this conversation, Claire. You you just wow, you just asked amazing questions, and I've just I've just loved it. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

There are some thoughts that my guests bring here that feel so fundamental to who we are, how we get to show up in this world, how we get to see ourselves, how we get to be seen by others. And this one that Ellie brought You are not broken. There is nothing wrong with you. It stretches across so much, not just our relationship with alcohol, but even the messages we get from a well-being world that says that it serves us, but in so many ways sells us more and more pain points, more and more things that are wrong with us, more and more things that we're not doing right. And holding on to the thought that it's not us. Maybe it's the culture in which we're living that gives us messages like your emotions are not valid or alcohol is the only way that you can connect. We can come to believe that we are broken, that it is us, that we do need to fix ourselves because we are inhabiting a world that kind of needs us to believe that so that it can sell things to us, so that we can be ever moving and ever changing and ever adjusting ourselves, so that we can, particularly as women, shape shift even our feelings. But when we believe that we're not broken, when we believe that there isn't anything wrong with us, when we believe that we get to treat ourselves with compassion and show up with curiosity and offer ourselves just try, just see what might happen, then there is space to step into something else. The reason I raised the question around relationships there's a really important piece, I think, that we can learn to understand that we are not broken, we can learn to understand that there's nothing wrong with us, we can learn to love our sensitivity, we can start to really want to and need to validate and be with our emotions. But if we're around people that don't get that, that don't understand that, that don't hold us the way we hold ourselves, that can be extraordinarily difficult. So I suppose my message to you today, if there is one beyond what Ellie and I spoke about, is be that person, believe it for yourself and believe it for others. Believe that the people around you are not broken, believe that there is nothing wrong with them, believe that they get to be held with compassion, and you get to offer them curiosity, and you get to make space for their emotions and their sensitivities too. So is this a thought that you will keep you are not broken? There is nothing wrong with you. Is it something that will stay with you? And maybe it's something that you'll think about whether that is the moment that you reach for a drink on a Friday night and you wonder why you can't cope with stress, or whether it's something that you will just think about next time you're in conversation with somebody and you're wondering why they can manage it, but you can't. Or you're wondering why you are feeling acute grief and judging yourself for that. Maybe it's something you'll notice when you're choosing not to pour the drink. Maybe it's a thought that you'll just simply sit with for a while without even needing to do anything with it at all. If you would like to stay with this conversation a little longer, think about some of these things a little bit more, maybe even let me know what you think, then come over to Substack. That's where the conversation that we started here gets to continue. I'm at More Good Days, and join the thread that is around this conversation today, and let me know whether it's a thought that you'll keep, how it landed with you, what it means to you, or even whether it's something that you might let go of. And if you're looking for more emotional support, some more emotional guidance, some more space to examine or explore, or even understand your emotional life, then do come over to if loss. Where we really do look at the beliefs that we hold around even feeling what we feel. If you are curious about how to shift the relationship you have with your emotions and even how to sit with emotional pain, emotional discomfort, my conversation with Isabel Fielding is a really, really good one. She brings a thought that can help us learn to live with our emotions and even accept the perceived negative ones that we might struggle the most with. And there is a really, really nice complimentary episode to this where I talk with Lauren Barber about how we do learn to feel held and how we can offer that space to ourselves. If you enjoyed this episode, then please do rate, review, subscribe, or support the show. You can do that by either becoming a member of my Substack and or going to the show notes and clicking on support the show, you'll get access to special video episodes of these podcast conversations and also some bonus material as well. Thank you for taking the time to listen. I wonder whether this is a thought that you'll keep. Until next time, bye for now.