Making Space for All That We Feel with Dr MaryCatherine McDonald

In this episode, I talk to Dr MaryCatherine McDonald about what it means to make space for all that we feel, especially the emotions we’ve been taught to push away. We explore anxiety, grief, joy, and all the ways our nervous system tries to protect us, even when it leaves us bracing against life rather than living it.

MaryCatherine shares how her understanding of emotions shifted from something to manage or control, to something to sit with and relate to. We talk about anticipated loss, the way fear can interrupt connection, and why joy isn’t something we reach after the hard parts, but something that often arrives in the middle of them.

We mention The Guest House by Rumi, Leslie Jamison’s The Empathy Exams, and MaryCatherine’s books The Joy Reset and Unbroken.

Dr. MaryCatherine McDonald is a trauma researcher, author, and educator who has spent nearly two decades helping people reframe the way they understand grief, resilience, and joy. With a PhD in philosophy and a knack for turning complex neurobiological concepts into practical tools (and surprisingly good metaphors), she’s made it her mission to help people find light in the darkest moments. Dr. McDonald has written four books, many academic papers, delivered countless workshops, and created an online community where members geek out about trauma and joy. 

 Website | Tik Tok | Instagram

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of A Thought I Kept, a podcast about the ideas that stayed. I'm your host, Claire Fitzsimmons, and today I'm really excited to share this episode with you. I really enjoyed talking to my guests this week, particularly because she bought something that I spend a lot of my time thinking about, and that is emotions. Dr. Mary Catherine is a trauma researcher, educator, and author who has spent nearly two decades helping people reframe the way that they understand grief, resilience, and joy. Mary Catherine has written four books. Her latest, The Joy Reset: Six Ways Trauma Steals Happiness and How to Win It Back, has been mentioned a few times on this podcast, and it's a book that I find myself recommending the most right now. It's perfectly situated for this moment, particularly because Mary Catherine believes that joy is not reserved for the perfect picturesque moments, but it's found in these tiny, gritty everyday experiences. This is a really great conversation that I hope can bring some lightness to what right now can feel like never-ending darkness. That it can be a bridge to hope, maybe, and that it will help you think of joy as something that isn't light or fluffy, but is tenacious and resilient, and has something so life-affirming to offer you. Because Mary Catherine's work suggests that joy isn't the opposite of pain, and that in many ways it lives right alongside it. Here's my conversation with Dr. Mary Catherine McDonald. Hi, Mary Catherine. Welcome to the podcast. Hi, Claire. I am so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. You're most welcome. It's so good to see you. Um, how are you arriving here today?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Do you want to know something funny? Um, I got invisalign this morning. Well, how's that feeling? It is feeling interesting, but I am so preoccupied by my mouth. Are you hyper conscious of what's going on around? 100%. And I'm like not looking at myself over there on the thing because I'm like, what do I look like? What do I sound like? Do I have a lisp? Like, what's happening? But I think we're, I think it's okay. It's just funny. It feels very, I feel very like puberty. You know what I mean? Yes. Yes. That must be a funny feeling. Yeah, that's something you're teenage about, isn't it?

unknown 2:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

100%. Like, okay, we're at we're at lunch and I I just got braces. Like, is anyone gonna notice?

unknown 2:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

That's a good feeling to remember at the stage, isn't it? Like we almost like we need sympathy for our teenage folk. Oh my gosh. It's such a hard, yes. It's such a hard little time of life. How are you? I'm doing really well. I'm doing really well. It's towards the end of the day for me. So this is what I love about the time difference between us. There's a sort of like an end of the day, beginning of the day. Also overlapping of lives. You're in Marin, and that is my where my heart is. So it's just nice to have that connection. Like I, yeah, I feel very good to be here with you. Yes. It's like you're visiting. Yes, we're visiting each other. That's a very, very nice idea.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

There's this beautiful thing. It was Leslie Jameson, who's a writer who writes about a bunch, you know.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah, she wrote empathy. Empathy exams, yes. Exams. Yes. I read that a while ago. And also her writing is just so beautiful. Again.

unknown 3:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

I know it. And she has this line where she talks about empathy is like visiting a new country and kind of landing. And then you say, like, okay, what animals are are are grazing here and what are the customs and what kind of food do we eat? And I think about that kind of visiting all the time. Like when I'm meeting with a new client or just meeting someone or on a podcast. It's like, okay, we're in two different time zones. Like, what's happening at your time? You know, like what's happening here? How does that work?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

I love that idea of visiting each other. Like that spending a moment and bringing that sense of empathy and connection with somebody. That's a lovely way to start a relationship. Yes. Yes, totally. I'm excited to talk to you for a number of reasons, but one of them is that you are one of the guests whose work has been mentioned a couple of times in this podcast. That's crazy to me. How cool. So I feel like what I'm doing right now is following the threads. I feel like if we follow the threads far enough, we'll get to the core idea. Like somewhere there is that core idea. Amanda bought an idea about finding the light and the darkness. Yeah. And the tiny little joys that was very much influenced by you and your work. And another dear person, Georgina Jones, who set up this amazing thing called the Grief Disco. She had lost her son. And she bought the idea about grief and joy coexisting. Yeah. And really your work helping her through a period of utter loss. And I remember being so moved and touched by their stories, but also this idea that can be so confounding to us around light and darkness and joy and grief that I really wanted to talk to you. And I know that we'll get into those things. Yes. And before we do go there though, I do want to ask you what your thought is that you've kept and what you're bringing. And I'm really curious to hear what that is for you.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

So I have I have a little poem and then I can explain what this I think it'll be obvious, but also I'll explain it. So the thought that I wanted to bring comes from one of my favorite poems by Rumi, which is the guest house. Can I read it? Yes.

unknown 5:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

This being human is a guest house. Every morning, a new arrival, a joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor. Welcome and entertain them all, even if they're a crowd of sorrows who violently sweep your house empty of its furniture, but still treat each guest honorably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight. The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door laughing and invite them in. Be grateful for whoever comes because each has been sent as a guide from beyond.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

That is so beautiful. Oh my gosh. Why were you when you heard that?

SPEAKER_01 6:33

I was in my office at my old job, one of my old jobs in Worcester, Massachusetts. And one of my friends who is also a professor just slid this piece of paper across the table and said, I think you need this in your life right now. I remember exactly where I was, like what I was wearing, what the light was like. You know, it's like one of those moments where you just the whole thing imprints because there's like a before and after, right? Like there was before this idea and then after. Because I think the thing that it reframed for me was this idea that like our emotions are not something to go to war with. Our emotions are here to be experienced. And so if we can learn how, and I literally picture myself like at my dining room table with tea, saying, like, okay, anxiety, come on in, sit down. Okay, grief. What do you have for me? You know, laughing or smiling or just not trying to throw them out, you know.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Before that moment, what were you doing? Do you think in relationship to emotions? So rather than inviting them in and saying, hi, why are you here? Tell me about you. What do you think you were doing before that moment?

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Labeling them, denying them, trying to manage them, saying, like, okay, this emotion is allowed, but only for this long. I can't deal with this emotion anymore. Anxiety and grief, anxiety in particular, was I felt like I was being tortured. But when I look back, I realized like we were torturing each other, right? Because the anxiety had something to say. And I kept closing the door and saying, You don't belong here, you're not allowed. That's not okay. And when you let anxiety in and you listen to what it has to say, which you don't always want to hear, right? And that's okay. Then you find out what you need to do or what it's asking for, which is never something awful, you know. It wants a hug or it wants to write something down or be listened to, or it wants a cup of tea, you know, like so I was in a I was uh in war with myself, but I just didn't realize it.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

And you didn't realize it while you're at war with yourself until the moment that this poem came into your life? Or did you have some consciousness before then that there was something that just wasn't quite working for you?

SPEAKER_01 8:40

I mean, I think I thought I was broken. Like I thought something was wrong and I I was going to be the anxiety was gonna ruin my life. That was always the fear it was gonna get in the way and ruin my life, and you know, that it wasn't acceptable. I don't think I realized I was at war with emotions, but I think I I was not comfortable. I wasn't in a peace, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Because the idea that if anxiety was there or if these other perceived negative emotions were there, you would doing something wrong. You were experiencing something wrong, or they had something to offer you or to say to you that was terrifying or horrifying or would consume or drown you or whatever the fear would be. Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Totally. They're there to be managed, right? Like, and and like if you're not managing them, you're doing something wrong. You're not an adult, you're not successful, you're not okay. And I got this very much from my upbringing, which was very much about pull yourself together. Appear as if everything is okay, even if it isn't. That's your job. That's what we do, that's what we're here to do, is to pull ourselves together. And that didn't come from a place of like cruelty or malice. That's how my parents were brought up too. You know, this is how we live. But I was a very deep, kind of sensitive little being. And so I wasn't good at it. And so it was like, you know, if you're failing at pulling yourself together, you have to keep working on it until you can do it.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Yes, because that's the strength. The strength is getting to that place where you can manage and deny your emotions. And I'm guessing logic is taking over at this point, or being like a cognitive being is taking over at this point because that's legitimate. Yeah. And emotionality has no place in this. But if you're a sensitive person, that's who you are.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Right. Totally. So you're wrong. And so you're broken. You're wrong, you're broken. And then I was like, okay, so cool. I'll just go to school for like 75 years. I'll get all the degrees in the world. And then, like, at some point, I will have figured out how to do this. And I just never did. Instead, I learned that the whole thread was wrong, right? I was on the wrong path. It's not about banishing them, it's about letting them in.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Okay, so wait. So this poem comes onto your desk that was offered in what way by your colleague? How is that like what is that gift that they're giving you? Like, why are they doing that for you?

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Because it's well, I okay, so this is also weird. So I had a, I had the the amazing, incredible experience of getting to teach at the university that I went to. And so all of a sudden my colleagues were they like the people who had been my mentors and professors were my colleagues. And so they knew me very well. They knew my development, they knew everything that had happened in my adult life. And we're also studying philosophy and psychology. So we get quite deep. So this isn't maybe like normal for like any any other maybe workplace environment, but um, it one of my colleagues, we were talking about grief because we were both writing about it, and he just said, you know, I think you are rehearsing loss. And every day you're rehearsing loss. And I was like, what the hell does that mean? You know, and then you know, we had some deep conversation about it that that in which I can overintellectualize and not feel anything. And then the next day he he brought that poem and just slid it across the table. Because sometimes, you know, words need to be poetic in order to land where they need to.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

And so his hope for you was that you would be then able to welcome in a wider range of emotions. What was his hope for you, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 12:15

I think that and also to stop pre-grieving everything, you know, because it was like anything that was good in my life, including that job that I had, was like, okay, which I knew was temporary, was about I was so taken up in the what is it gonna be like when I lose this that I wasn't living it. And so it's like that tension with grief was the whole thing, instead of saying, okay, we can sit down and we can say, like, this is a beautiful thing, this is a beautiful opportunity, and it's gonna be hard to lose. And if there's one thing you know how to do, it's lose things and grieve them. And so could we could we have both? Do we have them at the table? What would that look like to have them for dinner instead of, you know, like this whole tense battle that I was having?

SPEAKER_00 12:58

There is a beautiful moment in the book, and I hope I don't misquote you, but I think you say something like, If I loved you, I'd probably have planned your funeral. Um and there is the the pre-grieving that and so if we this is maybe a moment to bring in some of these ideas about what anticipated grief did for you or does for you, because it leads into one of the six thieves of joy. Yeah, because that's one of them is this idea about loss and anticipated loss and how how that can be a barrier to even accessing hope and joy and the more perceived positive emotions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

I've had a lot of loss in my life. Both of my parents died when I was 24 and 25. And I had had a boyfriend young who had cystic fibrosis and died. And so grief was very much a part of my foundation. And I think with the death of my father in particular, which was so shocking, my system learned, or thought that it learned, that the best way to keep yourself alive in the world is to brace against the loss so that it doesn't hit you unawares and blindside you. And so if you pre-gre, and I really mean that literally in the book, you quoted it exactly right. Like, if I love you, I've planned your funeral. Like when I don't hear from somebody for a half an hour, you know, which is very normal, I have imagined in great detail the accident that you've been in and the injuries that that you had and that were critical. And then I'm at your funeral and I'm picking out music and figuring out what I'm gonna wear and what could I say, and how is this gonna go and how am I gonna feel and what's the world gonna feel like to me without you in it? And that's not a normal way of relating to people. I think what happens with with trauma is that our nervous systems adapt, and that's such a beautiful thing. Um, the book I wrote before, The Joy Reset, is called Unbroken, and it's all about how like we need to reframe the trauma response because we have this idea of it that if you have a trauma response or if you have PTSD, this means you're broken. And the reality is actually the opposite. The trauma response is a strength response. The problems come up when the trauma response is being activated when it doesn't need to, or when it gets stuck on and can't get turned off. And so for me, I think because of all these early foundational losses, the grief button, the traumatic grief button, just got stuck in the on position. And so it's really hard for me to relate to people without anticipating the loss, because the way that my system has adapted and stayed in connection with people is to say, look, if I can just get my head around the fact that I will lose you and what that will look like, then I will survive it and then I can be in relation to you.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yes, that makes sense. Yes, I see that. So there's a protection in it for you. Protecting yourself. Yeah. And then so then where does the piece of where does joy come into that? Where does hope and where do the perceived positive emotions come into that? Because there's something in that that you speak, you write so beautifully about, which is that this response becomes this bracing against loss also becomes a barrier to feeling those emotions.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yes, to feeling the joy and the hope.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

To feeling the joy. Yes. Yes, right. So the I call these so this kind of fear of loss is one of the joy thieves. And there are six thieves in in the joy reset, and there are probably more, but these are the ones that I discovered when I was writing the book. And the purpose of the thieves is to protect you. So they're there as adaptive moves, they're learned behaviors that come from past experience, and they're they're super intelligent and tricky. And so if I I'm trying to think of a like a concrete example, but in general, in relationships, that thief will come in, the fear of loss thief will come in as soon as I feel connected and seen and like I want to keep connecting with this person. And it gets in the way. It says, if you're gonna do that, you have to understand that you're gonna lose them. And here's what that looks like. And are you okay with that? Right. And so it actually dampens some of the joy of connection. And I sometimes feel like it's standing in between me and the other person in this way that I'm like, I'm trying to like, it's standing in front of me, and there's the other person, and it I move and then it moves, and then I move this other way and it moves, it's blocking something. There is like a level of depth and vulnerability, vulnerability that I find really hard to get to because in the moment it it comes in. Like if I'm shopping for like an apartment with a partner, literally the first thing as I'm looking at the pictures on Zillow, I'm like, okay, so so I'll be standing in that kitchen the morning after you die, and I'll have to make the coffee by myself.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

It's so good. It's so good. It's right there.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yes. And it's like, but it takes away from the joy of like looking for an apartment and imagining, like, oh, what kind of fun dinners are we gonna have in that kitchen? Like, I don't go there, I go to the to the darker place. So that is it's funny that you brought that one up because this is my that's my top joy thief personally. And that's the one I'm still really I'm not gonna say battling with. We're not battling, we're we're negotiating.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Yes. And I'm really pleased that you said that that that this is one that you are also still in relationship with. Because I think sometimes we have this perception that somebody writes a book and they have it all figured out, and these are the six things. And they must absolutely do this, and this is how I live my life. And actually, what I what I took away from the book is that we are in relationship with emotions, and we're in relationship with the way that we relate to emotions. Yeah. And that there are moments that this isn't about just like there is joy, and joy will be in your life. Like there are moments in the book that you lose contact with joy. You wonder whether you should even write this book, you wonder, you know, there's moments of what's going in your personal life, what's going on around you, which might be more pertinent right now. Yeah. As we're recording this episode. But there is something about like it's not like these emotions don't just come in and they stay in the singular form. They come and they go, and we shift how we relate to them. And that you are, as the writer of this book, also in relationship to these things as well. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

So fully. And and that is real. Like that, that's not a marketing ploy. Like, I really did get to the middle of the book and and think I can't, I can't, in good conscience, like publish this because I don't know if I believe in joy at this moment when I'm writing it. After two weeks of thinking, it was like, okay, maybe write about that and see what comes next. And thankfully, my editor welcomed it because it didn't really fit the proposal that I had put in. But yeah, no, it's a dance and it evolves and it's dynamic. I think one of the reasons I love that Rumi poem so much is that it's got this like sort of like community aspect to it, where it's like, you we are in community with these emotions. And like in any community, there will be moments of like frustration and moments of disappointment and anger, and you know, you don't necessarily want to see that person on that day because you're mad at them for the, you know, thing they disappointed you for yesterday or whatever. But that doesn't mean you leave the community and it doesn't mean that you shut out the members. It means you figure out how to dance together and we just keep doing that as things change and evolve, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Yeah, it also made me think about what you said about anticipated loss. Like sometimes I suppose there is a loss of an emotion. There is a loss of a contact with an emotion. But there is something also in that if we're in relationship with that, we can lose contact with hope. Yes, we can there is a grief around losing contact with hope, or we can lose contact with joy. Like that, it's all in there in that poem. And that I suppose my hope, my hope in that though, is that as you're like, you know, there is this room full of emotions in a sense, and there's this sort of guest house that contains like what it is to be human, there is that almost like where we started from. There's things that arrive, things that leave, things that come in. There is that fluidity to it. Yes. And I wonder whether sometimes, and like maybe from your own work, what you've seen in terms of how we feel the need to hold on to an emotional state. Like we must be, and that could be a perceived positive emotional state, like we must be we embody happiness, I am happy, my identity is happiness. But equally, my emotional state is sadness. So I am sadness or anxiety, like there are different things that we hold on to so tightly is emotional states as well. Like, what have you found around that? And like and what that gives us in terms of identity, but also what that gives us in terms of this lack of fluidity and this lack of a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Um my gosh, so much to say, you know. So I have at least two ideas. I definitely want to make sure that I get to one is this idea of like over-identifying with something, which I'll come back to. But the other is this like, I think a lot of what goes wrong when it comes to joy and hope is our societal definitions of these words and the way that we deploy them at people when they are in a dark moment. And so, you know, if you're grieving or you're really struggling to find meaning or hope for your future, and I say, you know, Claire, you have to hold on to hope. Right. Like, what the, what does that do? Right? What does that do to you? What does that do to our relationship? And then what does that do to that emotion for you? Right. Like the the, I think that's a really hard, we we deploy very harmful ideas about joy and hope in particular. This idea that you have to be joyful just because something positive is happening is not a very attuned way to look at what's happening to somebody, you know? And the cool thing about hope and joy is that they don't actually need you to believe in them for them to exist. They're gonna do that anyway. I think joy and hope are far more tenacious and gritty than we give them credit for. And they will show up whether you want them to or not. I know that because that has happened to me. And I think to all of us, it's just that's not an idea that we talk about. We say, like, you can't give up hope. You can give up hope. I will hold it for you. Someone else will hold it for you, and it will come back in when you least expect it, you know? And then coming back to the rigidity idea and over-identification, that's really tricky. I think when we go through something hard, let's say, let's imagine loss, because we've been talking about that. There's a moment in processing that where we need to identify with the emotion. I am grieving, right? I I am, this is me right now. But there's a moment where we need to step back a little bit and let some of the other emotions come into the house as well. And that's hard because sometimes when this is when another joy thief can come in sometimes, which is guilt. Like if I'm grieving, yes, and and that's my I'm identifying with that grief that is that is very much what I am doing and who I am right now. And then something positive happens, or I just have a silly afternoon and feel joy talking to a friend, then guilt sometimes sweeps in and says, What are you doing? You're not supposed to be. We're we're identified as grief right now. This is joy. You can't have two at the same time. And again, that that guilt is trying to protect you, but it's also something you could turn to and say, you know what, I hear you, but we I don't need I haven't done anything wrong. I don't need to feel guilt about this. I'm going to feel this joy. And then when the next grief wave comes, I'm gonna feel that too, you know?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Yes, because there is the guilt is about an ex a lot of things, but there's also this expected emotional response. So there is grief, but if we were to feel that moment of thinking about laughing at my mom's funeral, it sounds kind of like you or I think you had a similar thing at your father's funeral. But there is like this is an unappropriate emotional response within this context because the people around me believe it's not emo appropriate. So then my version of grief must look like this. Right. And joy and grief can't possibly coexist. Right. And I think sometimes we have this perception that like mixed emotions is interesting, that we can only hold one emotion at a time. And actually, I really like your work because it's so much around like we can hold two emo opposed what seemingly opposing emotional responses. And I think there's something in the book that is around like neurobiology, that we can feel multiple things at once. And that that is we are able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Yeah. We're we're and we're supposed to. We're supposed to kind of toggle back and forth. Like it's not, it's a problem if we're in one and one alone, right? And I think the most vivid example of this is to think about hope and fear, right? Hope and fear do very different things in terms of our our neurobiology, but also like our belief systems and our behavior. And so if we're in a fear state, we're not supposed to stay there. Fear states exist neurobiologically for us to handle a threat. And when the threat goes away, then we should be able to come back to the joy state or the relaxed state. And so if we get stuck in the fear center with the fear switch, you know, lit up, then it does become an opposition where we can't feel joy. But what we're we need to get back to baseline where you can kind of go back and forth. If some scary thing, if we had an earthquake right now, right, I go into the fear center, that's scary. But then when I realize that I'm safe, hopefully knock on wood, and come back to the conversation, then I should be able to go back into the joy space, right? It's it's supposed to be a dance neurobiologically, not this fixed thing where like, okay, I'm grieving or I'm afraid, and therefore that is the only thing I'm gonna feel. That's that's an aberration.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Okay. So then equally, what about this idea that like joy is only the thing that I feel after something happens? Yeah. So like I get through the grief, I get through the darkness, I get through all the, you know, the fears and the angers. And then later on in this future moment, there is joy for me. And joy for joy is the end of the road. And that is light. That's light after the darkness. What have you come to understand about where joy, the darkness and the light sit together, and where joy comes in the journey? That's such a good question.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

So the thing that I realized, and this was really like against my will. I didn't want this to be true. I didn't set out to figure this out, but in my own experience, joy just comes in and interrupts, right? So there's the story, and it's I'm curious about yours as well, because it sounds like you have a similar one. But there was a story in the book about my father's funeral, in which I walk down the aisle, like just absolutely wrecked. I can't even walk, like my knees are shaking. You know, I can't look at anybody. It's the job is to get to the front and sit down. Like that's the only thing I'm thinking of. And I get to the front, my father died on Christmas, and so his funeral happened just a couple days later, and the church was still sort of decked out for Christmas. And I got to the front of the church, and I am met with a full-size plastic painted camel, like life size, giant. It's like staring me in the face, which is just the last thing you imagine you're gonna see. And I hadn't seen it right, because I was, you know, looking down and just focusing so much on getting on getting to the front. And to add on to this, my dad thought that stuff like that was the funniest thing in the world. Like his favorite movie was Babe with the talking pig, like animals in absurd situations, like set him off like nothing else. So the fact that this was happening at this time was just like it was hilarious. And so I spent the first like five minutes of my father's funeral laughing. And that's not a moment I wanted to feel joy. That was a moment that joy showed up. But that laughter, that five minutes, was such a merciful, like breath of fresh air that made it possible for me to get through the rest of that day. Yes. And with every loss and every darkness I have ever encountered, there's always a joy. There's always a hope that comes sort of sparkling in through the window and interrupts your pain and darkness. And so I think like when we define joy as this thing that we have to wait until the after to get to, we're missing the fact that it's here to get us through. And when we know that and notice it, then we can kind of like capitalize on the mercy, if that makes sense. You know, we can imprint it as a deep breath and say, okay, like joy, I see you. Hope, I see you. I'm glad you're here. What do you have to say? And then on to the next thing.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Why do we think of joy then as so fluffy? Like when it brings such strength and fortitude, and you talk about it. I remember reading the paragraph of this tenacious and it's grishy, and it just has this capacity to hold on so extraordinarily tightly. Why do you think in our culture we have this idea that joy is something fluffy? Like I was thinking about, I think I saw something like you're called the joy lady. And I was wondering like what associations you would have with that. And this idea about like when we invite somebody to a place of joy, our default can be that that is like wispy. There is nothing to hold on to. It's fluffy, it's extra, it's like it's just an add-on that's unnecessary. Like, why do you think we have such a sort of bias in our culture towards joys being like almost like empty calories? Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

You know, this is like gonna spark a second book. Um so I very much appreciate this. And like this is so funny too, because when you do, when you write a book, there is this idea that like you know the thing because you wrote about it. Then you go on podcasts or someone asks you a question and you're like, I never thought about that. Like, what? And I that's my favorite thing because I'm like, why am I writing this huge in my notebook right now? The thing I'm coming up, like I so I had two immediate thoughts. And one of them was like, Well, Claire, because we're full of shit. Like, that's yeah, our society. I think we sorry, I just wear, but we we are full of crap, and that's one piece. But I think the deeper answer there is that we are uncomfortable. We we live in a grief phobic society. We live in a darkness phobic society. And by the way, look what happens when we turn away and pretend the darkness isn't there, you know, tragedy. This is, I think, a huge a large part of why we're in this global situation that we are in now. But I think that like we, it's because we are fighting so hard to pretend the darkness isn't real that we have to set up joy in almost ridiculous opposition. Like if there's everything dark and bad and heavy over here, then joy has to be the opposite of all of those things. It has to be flat light and fluffy and high up, and they cannot coexist and they can never meet because we want to be up here and not down here with this darkness.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yes, because that's where we aspire to be. And also it has that like shiny, distracting quality to it. It's like if it holds enough attention and a sense, we don't ever have to kind of look over there, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:00

And because that makes us uncomfortable. Like, I and it is uncomfortable. I don't want to like deny that. But like if you, if we started this call and you said, you know, I'm arriving today in incredible grief, right? Like, I would be two things at the same time. One is like honored that you would share that, but two also like uncomfortable. I don't know what to do with that. I don't I want to make you feel better. I don't know you enough to know what would help distract you in the moment, right? And so immediately, like relationally, when someone is feeling pain or in the darkness, we don't know what to do with that. And because we don't value that kind of depth right now, I think we have in other times and other cultures certainly do, that leaves us at, you know, in this place where we can't allow it. And so we can't see joy for what it is because it's inherently entangled with the darkness. The real joy is like I imagine, like a 16-year-old, you know, badass girl with like punk rock hair and combat boots who just knows everything and knows who she is and what she likes and what she's doing, you know, doesn't doubt or stop or second guess, but just kind of comes blasting in and says what she knows is the right thing to say. Like there's a tremendous amount of energy in that, but it's not all like good and fluffy. It's it's it's rooted. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 33:19

I do, yeah. Like you feel that you're unafraid of looking at the darkness now.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Yeah. Me? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yes, yeah, yes, yes. And there's again this moment's book, that there is this idea about a freedom in looking into the abyss. And in that context, I think you were talking about suicide. And what's interesting about the book is that it's not it's very clearly at the beginning, you say this is a like a dark book about joy. I think that's what you say. And very quickly you say there's violence, there is suicide, there's death, there's cancer, there's and so I'm curious about so many of us are terrified of looking into the abyss. We're so scared that if we look there, then it's gonna pull us in. Right. And we are just gonna be consumed by it. What stops you from being absolutely terrified of the darkness?

SPEAKER_01 34:19

That's such a good question. I had at my first teaching job, so all these people that I was working with, who I had who had been my professors, they nicknamed me Dr. Sunshine sarcastically because I was studying like all this dark stuff and always taught, and they were like, What are you gonna do next, Doctor? But so number one, I think I have a I have a fascination. And I think curiosity is incredibly powerful because it it disarms some of the fear. And so when I'm really interested in something, this is true, I think, for anyone. If you're really interested in something, you can't really be as afraid of it as if you if you weren't interested in it. And also, like, I think I just have seen in so many ways the repercussions of not going into the dark and not looking at the abyss, and they are far worse than than looking and and getting to know the abyss. There are friendly people there in the abyss. You'll never be alone, even if you feel it. And it's something that is gonna come for all of us. I know that sounds damning, but there's also so much depth and beauty in it. If you can give yourself enough time to kind of get adjusted to the dark. But yeah, I just, you know, the suicide chapter was the trickiest chapter. That was the one that got rewritten the most. And the original case study was of someone who had actually died by suicide. And it didn't make it into the book because the publisher was worried that like it's too dark, which, like, on the one hand, 100% I understand that. And I there is a fear that when we talk about these things, that if someone is kind of standing on the edge, that it could push them over. But I think far more of the time there's someone who isn't quite at the edge, but is terrified and needs to hear that they're not the only one standing there and that it's okay, and there is a a way forward into life, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

And you very beautifully brought it the idea of like existentialism and meaning making.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

I have a background in philosophy and I love it. But yeah, so the the the core of existentialism, which is this philosophical movement, is that number one, there is no life is absurd, right? There is no preset, predestined meaning. And there are existentialists who are religious, so you don't have to be an atheist. But the religious existentialists just say, look, like, you know, yes, there is a God, but that God is not a God that's going to come down and tell you, like, here is your path and here's what you should do. And so you are left alone in your in your independence and your agency, and your job here is to take responsibility for your life because life is absurd. And then the second idea is that like life has no meaning except for the meaning that we give it. And so a lot of people and in the whole Catholic Church, when this, you know, when this philosophy came out and became popular, only hears the first clause, right? Life has no meaning. And then it's like, well, what then what are we doing? But that's not the end, that's the beginning. It's like, okay, once you realize life has no meaning, then you get to figure out what to do with it. And I don't know how to like explain this, but the abyss is awful. And being plunged into it is the most aching, terrifying thing that will happen to you. And it can add so much dimension and beauty and depth to your life, so much perspective and awareness and direction that would not have been possible if you didn't go into the abyss. So if we can get less scared of it and get a little more curious about it, then I think we can help each other navigate it instead of just trying to deny it of ourselves by going back to these crappy definitions of joy and hope and say, like, okay, you're in grief. Well, your dad wouldn't have wanted you to feel that way. So you have to be happy and you have to keep hope. Like, what if we said to each other, you just got plunged into the abyss? I know that place.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Yes. Yes. And there is, you're not alone in it anymore. Right. You're not facing it because you're feeling ashamed that you feel that, or you can even see it, or you're experiencing it. Right. There is something of you have company, or somebody is witnessing you being there, and you don't need to hide it. The darkness, we're aware of it and we're hiding it from ourselves and from others.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

And then we're all standing there, like in it, but it's dark. So I can't feel it's like.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

You're right next to me, right? And someone's giving you the t-shirt saying, I don't know, live, laugh, love or whatever it was in the book. Positive vibes only or whatever. Yes, exactly that. Yes.

unknown 38:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

So I want to see if this works. There's there's a moment that I take guests through like five words. And I'm wondering, given that what you brought and the poem and your guest house, I'm wondering if we populate it with emotions.

unknown 39:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

And to see what comes up. To see if you were because they are wonderfully personified by you. And um, and we might choose some different ones. Is that okay if we try that? And to see we're welcoming into our guest house. I love it. So I'm curious about there's a word that I love, reverence. What does reverence mean to you? Oh, it just gives me goosebumps. I know, I love that word. I remember reading that part and just being like, oh, I love that so much. It's a sort of has a sort of old-fashioned quality to it. I don't know why. It does. It's almost Victorian about it, like literary about it.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

I really like to me, reverence has this almost like not a religious framing, but it's like almost holy, you know, like if you're in an experience and it just has so much excess that you end up in reverence, right? So yesterday we so we share Marin in common. And so yesterday I was at the lakes and Lake Lagomidas, and it was so beautiful out that you just sit there on a bench in reverence, like this almost holy appreciation for what is in front of you. And it it it kind of like stands at the edge of reality, right? Like it's like this is almost surreal, it's so perfect, you know?

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Only too otherworldly. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about shame. That's the second emotion that's in the guest house. What have you come to understand about shame? Shame.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Two things come to mind immediately. I think shame is often guilt metastasized. Yes. You see why it's so scary in the moment, and it's this big towering thing that kind of pulls together all of the joy thieves at once. Shame is our biggest barrier. I think it's the biggest barrier to gross, it's the biggest barrier to connection because when we feel that we are not deserving of what we need or want, it's hard to get anywhere close to it, you know? And it's heartbreaking. And it's something that can be chipped away at too. I think that's important.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

This one is tricky. So gratitude, and I'm saying it's tricky just because there is something roly-eyed about gratitude sometimes right now. And yet. And there is that and yet. How have you come to understand gratitude given how it started to sort of shape shift and become very like hyper present in how we think about well-being right now?

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Yeah, that's great. The I when I started the draw reset, I was mad at gratitude because this was very much a moment where I'm trying to remember what year that was. Everyone had a gratitude journal. Everyone was doing gratitude practice every single night. And it was like, And if you weren't feeling really guilty about it. Exactly, right. But even the people who were doing it felt guilty about it because they were like, oh, this feels kind of empty, but I don't know what to do about that, right? Because you end up writing the same things and maybe they're not landing and you can't figure out why, which is one of the things I I was kind of obsessed with in the book. Like, why don't good things land sometimes? You know, what is bad about? And so, but I think I've come around to it. And I mean, number one, because there's just an incredible amount of neurobiological research that shows how profoundly important it is for our mental health. And the studies that that talk about gratitude and have people do these really simple practices, like keep a gratitude journal, are almost hilarious. They're so effective. I mean, it can reduce anxiety, it can increase blood flow to parts of your brain that haven't been getting that. And so it can actually increase the size of your hippocampus and improve your memory. Like that's crazy. So I think again, this is one of these words like joy and hope that gets really misused and deployed in the wrong way. But when we come back to the root of it, being grateful is one of these primary foundational experiences that the more that we can return to, the more the our perspective on everything shifts, right? There's a line in the guest house. I think it's like be grateful for whoever comes, right? Asking yourself to be open. Gratitude is an opening to the world. It's like an expansion, but we have to kind of steal it back from the live, laugh, love people.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

How do we do that when there are these practices? I see this a lot. There are these practices that they have the scientific backing, they're fundamentally important to our well-being. And yet they have got diluted, co-opted, like something has happened to them that have made rendered them rendered them almost meaningless.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:35

Yeah. How can we find meaning again in the things that actually work without having to like put them in boxes or trends or like how can we do that?

SPEAKER_01 43:44

We we adapt them. So this was a key part of the book. And I have an exercise I can tell you about right now, which is one of my absolute favorites. And I do it with big groups, and it's kind of it's so fun. So gratitude, we know, turns on the hope circuit in the brain. And when the hope circuit is online, the fear circuit is offline. So this can be one of those ways to get yourself out of being stuck in fear. And also acts of kindness are another thing that we know turns on the hope circuit. And so I was annoyed about gratitude and gratitude lists felt like something I had to somehow include in the book, but it didn't feel like I couldn't just do the regular one. So I created something called supercharged gratitude, where you combine these two things and you of doing something kind for someone else and creating a gratitude list. And basically you just think of like the past three days or the past week, and you think of like maybe there's one to three people who really made you feel like seen or supported or understood, connected to. And you sit with that feeling for a couple of seconds. Maybe you write down what they did. You know, Claire wrote me an email earlier asking for a cookie recipe. And I felt like seen, very seen in my bio, but also excited about like, oh, we're gonna talk about cookies. Which is one of my favorite topics. Okay, good. And that made me feel really like attuned to and seen. And that felt really good. And that made me excited to come on the podcast, even more excited to come on the podcast. And then the so that's step one and two. You you kind of identify it, you imprint it by sitting with it for a few seconds. But then step three would be to tell the person. So text the person and say, you know, when we were having that hard meeting and you put you know your hand on my arm, I really felt like I wasn't alone. Thank you. Or when you sent me that email about cookies, it was like, oh man, she really read the bio and we get to talk about cookies now. And that made me feel really seen. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

And I feel very happy that you have acknowledged that and noted that and shared that with me. So it totally works. Right? This is because I'm now have that warm fuzzy feeling of right. Yes, you have just said. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Right. And so it's like you take this gratitude and you make it relational, which increases the impact and you make it, you supercharge it. So it's not just this empty list in your journal by your bed, but something that like connects you to other people and really, really, I think it really changes the charge of gratitude, like the feeling of it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Yes, and that relational piece. I love that. I love that idea that like bringing that piece in again and again and again somehow. Like there's an idea in the book about a relational home. And I think you talk about in terms of trauma. So it's a very sort of a different context, but there was something about a relational home that I I just felt important.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Yes. So and and and like, yeah, what what if all of our relationships were were like if we looked at them all in that frame? Like, is this person a relational home? Do they see me? Can I can I be vulnerable and share what I'm scared of? Like, man, that's cool, you know?

SPEAKER_00 46:47

That'd be very cool. I am aware of the time. And so instead of giving you two new words, I just want to ask you there's a moment in the poem you say there's an idea about welcoming in an emotion and entertaining an emotion, I think. You have written that down right, is that right? Yep. Yes, I think it's like, yeah, welcome and entertain them all. Yeah. Okay, so what is an emotion? We have two left. What is an emotion that you would like to welcome in now? A peace. Is that an emotion? Does that count? Yes, that definitely counts. Tell me about peace. What is peace to you?

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Oh, like that, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:20

What is that? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Yes, there might not be any words. I want to stay with you in that moment for a while too. That just like the letdown, not in a bad way, but the relaxing into, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

Oh, I like that one. I'd like to welcome that one in too. Yeah. And an emotion you would like to entertain. Man, Claire, that's a wonderful question.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Because I'm thinking of like, you know, being a hostess and like setting it, like planning a dinner and like entertaining.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Oh, who's at the head of your table? Are they at the head of your table? Are they sat next to an awkward guest? Where are they? So many possibilities.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

God, who do I want to entertain? Like the thing that's coming up is like connection vulnerability. Like, I want to dance with that. Like, how do we get deeper? Right? How do we how what kind of dance are we gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Vulnerability. Yeah, vulnerability. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Yeah. Like for the purpose of connection, like getting deeper with the yes, which is beautiful in that hosting capacity, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Because vulnerability connects. There is that loveliness about like so. Of course, that that that emotion would, you know, if you if you're the host and you're doing that magical, like who we're bringing together, vulnerability is helping you do that work too. Like it's perfect. Yes. It's a perfect emotion to entertain in that context in your guest house. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's and I'm gonna think about like how to actually do that. What would that look like to have like a dinner party with vulnerability?

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Okay, so let's let's come back to your beautiful poem. My goodness. So this landed on your desk, and you said there was a before and an after. How do you remember it now? Like, how is this something that you come back to now? I have moment.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

I have this poem framed on the wall. I try to look at it every day. And I really think I'm hesitating to say, I don't know that this is everybody's work, but I think it's certainly mine to to learn how to welcome and sit with these emotions. And I truly think it's lifelong. I'm gonna contradict myself because even though I did say like there's there was definitely a before and an after, but the after isn't like, okay, now I get this and I do it. It's like the after is like, here's this path of like this is your this is a thing you're gonna have to work on forever. And so I yeah, I feel I hesitate to say grateful. I feel very grateful that it came into my orbit and and I feel like we can do this. This is this is work.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

I love that we can do this because that's the relational again, isn't it? It's not just you doing it and you working on it alone and you doing the work. There's a real we in emotions, there's a real we in how we receive them and understand them and experience them. Yes, there's so much of that.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

Yeah, that's such a beautiful insight. I hadn't even realized that, but that's totally true.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Yes. MC, I can call you that now. We can spend an hour together. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing such a beautiful poem and your wonderful book and all your lovely metaphors and words and presence. It's been so delightful.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

Thank you. Thank you. This has been so generative. I'm gonna be thinking about why do we think of Joy as fluffy all day, all night, all next week. There's gonna be another book. I'm gonna dedicate it to you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

Okay, thank you. So I will leave you with a question that I ask my listeners every week, and that is whether the thought that Mary Catherine brought today is one that you will keep, maybe you'll forget it, or maybe you'll even share it. The same way that Mary Catherine received this poem. So Mary Catherine very kindly read the poem at the beginning. I'm just gonna read the poem at the end and see how you now experience some of the words that Mary Catherine brought. So the poem is Rumi's the guest house. This being human is a guest house. Every morning, a new arrival. A joy, a depression, a meanness. Some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor. Welcome and entertain them all. Even if they are a crowd of sorrows who violently sweep your house empty of its furniture. Still, treat each guest honourably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight. The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door, laughing, and invite them in. Be grateful for whatever comes because each has been sent as a guide from beyond. If you would like more company, as you think about some of these ideas that we explore in the podcast, then do join me and the community over at More Good Days on Substack. If you're someone who does need a little bit more one-on-one support, a little bit more guidance, then come over to if Lost Start Here. Thank you as always for listening. Thank you for spending the time. Until next time, when another guest will be sharing a thought that they kept, and maybe you will want to as well. I will see you next Monday.