When Grief Changes You But Doesn’t Define You with Rachel Hart-Phillips

In this episode, I talk to Rachel Hart-Phillips about grief, suicide, and what it means to be there for someone in the hardest moments of their life. We explore that quiet, often uncomfortable space where words feel inadequate and yet, where they can matter most.

We talk about the fear of saying the wrong thing, the silence that can grow around loss and mental health, and how even the simplest gestures — a message, a card, a “love you mate” — can open a door. Rachel shares her experience of losing her first husband to suicide, and the thought she has carried with her since: don’t let it define you. Together, we explore what that looks like in real life and over time.

This is a conversation about the many emotions that sit inside grief — anger, guilt, love, even moments of joy — and how they move through the body. We touch on how we support each other when someone is struggling, what it means to stay rather than fix, and how we begin to trust that life can hold both loss and aliveness at once.

If you’ve ever found yourself wondering what to say, or how to show up for someone you love, this episode is for you.

Rachel Hart-Phillips is the Co-Founder of LoveLossDiscoballs, a vibrant greetings card company creating colourful, honest messages of comfort for people navigating grief and all of life's moments. She is also the founder of Afterglow Grief Coaching, where she supports people through loss, including those impacted by suicide loss, and the complex realities of grief with compassion and lived experience. Rachel is passionate about suicide prevention, open conversations, and firmly believes that even in the darkest moments, life can still hold colour and light. 

Instagram at @lovelossdiscoballs and @theafterglowspace

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hi and welcome to this week's episode of A Thought I Kept, a podcast about the ideas that stay. I'm your host, Claire Fitzsimmons. And before we really get into this episode, I do want to let you know that we talk about suicide. And we speak very carefully and very openly about it. But if this feels tender for you right now, then please do listen in a way that feels safest to you. Today I'm joined by Rachel Hart Phillips. Rachel lost her first husband to suicide when she was pregnant with their son. And in the years since, she has shared her story publicly. She has trained as a grief coach. She has remarried and she's built this extraordinary business with her new partner, Warren Hart Phillips. Love Lost Disco Balls. And this is a modern greetings card company that brings colour and honesty into what are life's hardest moments. In this conversation, we get into why suicide still feels so taboo to name. And the silencing that can happen around conversations around mental health. We talk about men's mental health in particular and the cultural scripts that stop men from saying I'm not okay. And we get into how something as small as a card can really become an opening to a conversation that might really help. So if you've ever wondered what can really help when someone is struggling or how to support someone in your life, I think this conversation can offer something so steady and I hope helpful. And I know that Rachel brought something that the thought that she kept that is so personal and moving. And I feel just really honoured to have shared this conversation with her and to be sharing it with you. So here's my conversation with Rachel Hart Phillips and the thought that she kept in one of the darkest moments of her life and how this has helped her sent and continues to help her and maybe will help you too. Hi, Rachel. Thank you so so much for joining me today and for being on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Hi Glenn, lovely to meet you.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Yeah, it's good to meet you. It's such a funny way to meet someone, isn't it? To be in a podcast together and to have a conversation. Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, I'm really, really excited to be talking to you today. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yeah, yeah, I'm good actually. Yeah, it's been a been a really good week. Uh lots going on, nice and busy. Yeah, it feels like some stuff's coming together, which is which is good.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Do you like that when things are busy?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

I do actually, yeah. Especially, yeah, because it's a lot of sort of my own work and sort of Everston I'm doing really led by my heart at the moment. So being busy, it's yeah, it's a really good feeling, makes me feel like I'm I'm on the right track.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Yeah, and it's sort of how you know, isn't it? You know, when you get that energy around something and it does start to fall into place, and you're like, oh, I can see it. Yes, that I'm happening.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

That's a very exciting place to be. And I I know that we'll get into how you're spending your time now because you are doing the most amazing things. I'm thank you. I really want to get into all of like your business, some of your fundraising, some of your new trainings and all those different things. But I do know that what we really hate to talk about is the thought that you've kept. So let's start with that and then we can go into those other things. So each week on the podcast, I ask my guests the same question. And that question is what is the one thought out of all the different things, out of all the different ideas, what's the one thing that's really stayed with you that has really impacted you and shifted your life? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

So as I thought that was given to me actually by my best friend. Um, so I sort of have to go into my story a little bit to sort of give you the context behind it if that's okay. Yeah. Um, so yeah, six years ago I lost my first husband to suicide when I was pregnant. And I'd actually already lost, lost both my parents before that when I was younger. And um, yeah, so I was I was with my best friend, and it was just in in the darkest, darkest days of my life. I had just been to see my first husband in the hospital mortuary, and yeah, as you can imagine, they're just they can't think of many worse days than that. My friend met me there, and he was he was driving back home with me, and I was you know, after such loss, and you know, there was so much of it around me, and I was just really, really terrified that this was going to define me and was going to define the rest of my life. And I said that to him, I said, I'm just really scared that this is gonna define me. Um the thought or the words that he gave to me at that time was really, really simple, and he just said, Don't let it. But I mean, I was it was too soon to actually receive it at that point because you know I couldn't see how he couldn't define the rest of my life and define who I was, and but I kept it, so it was the thought that I kept because I was like, I'm gonna hold on to that thought and I'm not gonna let it define me.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah. When you think about it defining you, what were you so worried about?

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Um, I think just sort of being, you know, that that girl let that thing happen to, you know what I mean, like as if I was just gonna be like under this black cat black cloud forever and always just sad and no, never gonna have any joy back in my life, really. And that was a really scary thought.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah, and in that moment that's how it feels. Like you can't possibly, you know, thinking too far ahead just it is kind of it's beyond, it's beyond our capacity, it's beyond us. And you're so very much in that moment, but that moment is so terrifying and so dark. When did you feel that you were able to receive it?

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Uh I think it was probably it was probably after my son was born. I was pregnant at the time, I think I said. Um, but yeah, I think it was after he was born. The moment of joy that came back, it was obviously so bittersweet, and there was so many sad moments too. But when he was born, there was hope, and I could see a future, and when you were a mum, your life changes again, anyways. And yeah, there was, you know, I I wasn't just a widow now, I was a mum, and I had this little little baby who was just this spark shining little ray of light, and it was gonna give me all this hope for the future. And yeah, I definitely believe he saved my life, and that was yeah, that was the moment when I thought, you know, there are things that are gonna bring me joy again, there are things that are gonna make me happy and life's gonna look different, but it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Yeah. I mean, it sort of makes me think about, you know, there is this I found this. There is a moment that we can't reach for words, that we can't reach for language, and when we are around we're around somebody who has gone through such a, you know, catastrophic loss, sometimes we often feel we don't have the words. We don't feel like we can offer very much. And I'm wondering about this is something that you think about in your work too, but in that moment your friend was able to offer you something. And I I guess what I'm thinking about is like, how do we overcome that the silence and that can happen on the other side? Because I've seen people during my own periods of grief, I've seen people back away, I've seen people not know what to say, I've seen people not be with me in those moments, in the darkest, darkest moments because they didn't know how to. And those words, any words can mean so much in those moments.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

And they were quite empowering words as well. It wasn't, you know, people try to fix things, don't they? They uh yeah, some people might have said, Oh, it won't, don't worry, or you know, something like that. But yeah, it was just, and he said it's so casually as well. Like, don't let it as if it was no big thing. And I mean it it it is a very big thing, but it's uh yeah, if it was really empowering what he said and the way he said it to me. Basically it's it's up to you.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

What an amazing friend. Yeah. Does he know? He does, he does know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah, I don't think he knows the the full extent of the impact that they had on me, but but I have told him.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Do you know what it does make me think about? So you have created this extraordinary business from loss that is love loss disco balls. And you have been very open about telling your story. And in a sense, like you said that you didn't want it to define you, that you didn't want it to define you in terms of like the darkness and you wanted the hope and the joy. But what you have been able to do is to kind of that to be your work, that to be your focus. And I'm just wondering, what was it behind that that you you wanted to stay in the space, that you wanted to share your story, that you wanted to build a business around grief and loss?

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah, because I suppose just touching on that, it could yeah, could even be a bit contradictory because it does define the work and what I'm doing, but not not in the not in a sad way.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Um but yeah, so yeah, it was just it was just being there and sort of noticing what was missing. So as you know, Love Last Disco balls, it's all it was sort of born from creating brightly coloured sympathy cards and also cards for men to send to each other to to support each other and just check in and tell tell the mates that they love them and that they're there for them. And that hadn't really existed before. And then the sympathy cards, the ones that I received are all, you know, beige and got angel wings and doves, and they're all designed for older people than than I was, and spotting those things that were lacking and and that support that's actually needed. You know, it was a a good feeling to be able to to sort of help to fill those gaps in some way.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Because what did you want to hear at the time? What did you want to hear after? What do you want to hear now? Like, what are the words that that if we're experiencing grief, we do want to hear?

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Just think to say it's what I mean. You don't mind me swearing, it's just it's shit. No, really, yes, I don't mind you swearing. Yeah, yeah, it's shit. You don't want, you know, people saying, I'll do in a better place, or at least without a pain, or you know, and don't be sad, it's not they wouldn't want you to be sad, things like that. It's like you don't want to hear it at all. And I know people are just sort of pre-programmed, aren't we, to try and make make each other feel better and just off the tea and it's lovely, but it's not what you want to hear. You want someone to just sit in the mud with you, don't you, for a little bit? And just, you know, acknowledge how hard it is for you and just let let you know that they're there.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah, and that don't be sad, it's such a we're so conditioned for that, aren't we? We're so conditioned to not feel our feelings, not articulate our feelings, to feel the way that we think we should be feeling, to get through it. Um grief, there are so many narratives around grief. And something that I think I heard you talking about was there is a pressure to be strong in your grief. How did you experience that? This idea about you had to be hold it together, and and I think at that moment you had a you were pregnant and then you had a young child or a baby. Yeah, so how did you experience that narrative of like be strong, keep going?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah, I think that affected me. Okay, well, I lost my dad when I was 20, and everyone was telling me how strong I was. Okay, and I'd never been called strong before, so yeah, if someone says it, I think by the time I'd lost my husband, I'd I'd realised that, so we just sort of ignored it. It didn't mean that much to me anymore. But when I was young and people said it to me after my first loss, I was like, oh wow, people think I'm strong, right? I'm gonna have to keep this up. Otherwise, you know, if I cry, then I'm not strong and people are gonna think I'm doing it wrong. It's sort of you you you're getting applauded for being strong, but really all you're doing is just holding it together.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Yeah, and the being strong isn't about, in a sense, holding it together, the being strong, or the strength in in grief is about allowing those feelings and showing this feelings. Definitely. And it's sort of the opposite, isn't it, in a sense?

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yeah, complete opposite. Yeah, because there's nothing scary scarier than you know, if you've got these confusing feelings of guilt or anger or just crushing sadness. Sometimes you're too scared to go there, aren't you? So leaning in and feeling those emotions is the strongest thing of all. How have you learnt to do that? Because that's really so hard. Yeah, it is. Uh yeah, I think just making making space for them. So, and sometimes even you know, forcing yourself into them a little bit, like running along back and like listening to a sad song, or you know, just really being with them, not pushing the tears away. And making space is just nothing better than a big cry sometimes, is and then naming them as well. So if you feel something and it's you know, sometimes it, you know, it might be jealousy of you know, seeing someone else with something that you've lost. And again, jealousy is like a r an emotion we'll talk that is really bad, isn't it? Like green-eyed monster, but really it's just because you're sad because you're missing something and just giving yourself that grace.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah, it's so important. I think there's something about you know, we think grief is often just sadness, and yet there's like jealousy, and we can get so angry. And we can feel like we've been abandoned, so angry. Yeah, and there's yeah, and so there's all these other things that go with it, and then we can feel ashamed of a certain version of grief that we're experiencing. Like, what do you do what did you find, or what have you found of some of those other emotions that have gone alongside your grief?

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Uh guilt, guilt is huge, especially when you've lost someone to suicide. It's like you just blame yourself so much and like go searching for clues, starting through text messages, just replaying everything over and over, and thinking I've missed that, it's my fault. Why didn't I spot it? Why didn't I talk more? Why didn't I ask the question? But uh but again, it's all about giving yourself grace, you can only work with what you know at the time and we're doing our best. There I think that guilt is bad.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Yeah, guilt is really hard to live with and to move through and to get past. And what helped you with that?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Yeah, a lot of time. Yeah, and just being with the emotion. I've done I've sons on some uh suicide prevention training recently and that really helped as well because the fact that training exists to just got these signs and to know what to do. Looks like first aid, isn't it? If you're not trained up in it, you don't know, it's not on your radar. Suicide was a word I barely used before.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah, so I do want to talk about the silence around suicide. Okay. Because what's really interesting is how it's a word that we want to back away from. And it's something that we feel deeply, deeply uncomfortable talking about. I find we're so worried about speaking it into existence that if we say it and if we ask about it, then we're gonna make it happen somehow. What have you learned in terms of the silence around suicide and also how we can combat that silence around it?

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yeah, the silence is, I mean, it's it's the most dangerous thing of all around suicide. And you're so right, like there is a sort of myth, isn't there, that if you mention the word suicide, you're gonna put it into someone's head, but it's just not true at all. Uh but yeah, if you sort of, you know, if if you feel like someone is thinking along those lines or you're really worried about them, the best question you can ask is, Are you thinking about suicide? And like it feels weird to even say that, it really does. Yeah. But yeah, what that's what I learned in this training recently. And it's yeah, when you say it, if it feels odd, but it's so so important because if they are, then the person's like the release that they feel that they can they can say it.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

And if they say it, what happens next? So if they do say, Yes, I have thought about suicide. And then again, at that moment there might be if you're the person having that conversation, what happens if they say yes and you you have that like back away, back away, back away from you? Like what's next, what what what's the next step?

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Yeah, because like the yes answer is probably you know the next scariest thing, isn't it? And but it's just talking to them, listen listening to the story. With most things, isn't it? It's just being someone and being with someone and listening, and you know, when they're telling a story that there might be things that they do want to live for that come into it, and it's looking out for those signs. Yeah. So, you know, yeah, and then they might mention a family or kids or future plans or something, and that's what you have to look out for, and then try and focus, focus on that with them, and then try and find, you know, a safety plan if they've got any plans. Try and work with them to sort of dismantle that plan. But yeah, I mean, for most people, that's where you'd sort of signpost them to support, and that's why there's places like Campaign Against Living Miserably and lots of like local projects as well that you know we can can give professional help into someone who is thinking about suicide. There's so much support out there.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

And you have collaborated, like you've done fund you are doing a fundraiser for Calm, is that right? Yeah, we've yeah, we've got the Liverpool half marathon and tuned someday.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Oh that's so exciting. Yeah, and with Love Lost Disco Balls as well, we donate from our support card range to them. So yeah, we work quite closely with them, which is yeah, it's been such a great feeling.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Was that an important thing?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Such an amazing quality about your business. Did you did you want to have that service piece? Yes, yeah, we started doing that from day one. Very important. Cards can be such a great way of checking in on people as well. And no, that's quite quite unintrusive. It's not always easy to pick up the phone or call around, but a card's just a lovely, tangible thing that someone can keep. I remember getting a lovely card off my friend, and it was on my bedside table, and it used to cheer me up every morning because it was about friendship and it just reminded me of how much someone cared. So I think they're a great thing.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Yeah, I have one on my desk from my brother. Um, I don't know whether you ever watched Shits Creek, but there's a happened actually. That's out of context, this is gonna sound very weird. But it says, I totally get murdered for you. Anyway, um, but it's it's very much about the show. You need to watch the show to understand it, but it just makes me so happy being there. And it was just very probably just a very off, you know, just a very flippant, here you go, here is a card. And I love it so much, and it makes me feel so happy. And you have a number of actually, there's a number of cards that I was looking at that just I just think that's so smart. So, in terms of grief, there was something around sorry you lost your person, which just gets to my heart. And there is that idea of you know, like just honouring that relationship and sorry you lost your amazing dad. And yeah, you know, it's like I lost my mum a couple of years ago, and there is something in the sort of really seeing them as a person that I think your cards really speak to, and I really loved it's really lovely, but then there were these other ones that were you feel like home. I was like, I would absolutely send that to my best friend. I would it just has this like nourishing, lovely quality to it, and we'll get through this together. And I think it's that togetherness because sometimes what can happen if is again in grief, we back away and we say, you know, oh I'm here for you, and then we we we dispare quite quickly. And there is something about that we'll get through this together, like what your friend was, you know, who very kindly was there in that really difficult day, was getting through it with you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so where did the sentiments come from? Your cards? Like, how do you know what to say?

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, because um and it's just really because my husband's lost his mum as well. So yeah, things like, you know, sorry, you lost your awesome mum cards. We both sort of thought of things that we would like people to have said to us at the time. I mean, I mean I've got cards after me, I've got first husband ties, and it's like on the deepest condolences on the loss of your husband. And it's like that's not how we would talk to each other at all. But it was that it was like we want someone to acknowledge that our dad was amazing. We want someone to say, sorry, you lost your soulmate when you've lost your partner.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

It's like sometimes it's like the hardest conversation to have, doesn't it? Like I I um so I'm somebody that works with like I work with emotions, I work with words. I ha had someone close to me experience a loss earlier this year. And I remember sitting, I was texting her and thinking, I don't know what to say. I don't know what to say. And I probably delayed too long. Like I really had a sense of like, oh, maybe it's better to say nothing than to say the wrong thing. And I think where I get to is it's better to say something rather than nothing. But it was such a sort of like you it's it's so in that moment I just had that weight of like self-editing and being like that there is the wrong there are the wrong words. Yeah, it's scary, isn't it? It's really scary, it's really hard. And there is something about the card that is like you you are giving language to people. Because that card is saying, I am thinking about you, and and like I'm still there with you, and we're going through it together.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

And yeah, without filling it with because a lot of sympathy cards and cards like this have sort of loads of prose, don't they? And all that swelly font. Um and yeah, and but they're all full of platitudes and you know, poems and things, and again, it's not how we talk to each other. Um so we like to keep keep the words small, short but simple, but you know, heartfelt, and and the kind of thing you would actually say in a you know in a text or something.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yeah, and there's something about the design of the cards too, like it's very, like it's very colourful, it's very joyful. And I I remember when I first got into the space, so my mum had a uh mental health condition, and we would be constantly being told to go to some like informational brochure or go to some website. And every time I would go there, there would be someone with a head in their hands, it would all be dark, dark blue. It would feel very, very depressing. And I remember when we were doing the branding amunder, an eye around if lost, we wanted it to be like bright and colourful and creative and playful because when you go somewhere and you're lost, you want to like already feel like that, like a little bit of a spark of something, a little bit of an uplift. And we wanted the website to have that kind of it would feel instantly playful. And I think sometimes we think the two things can't be true. Like you can't possibly have a message of grief in a context of joy. You can't be talking about, I don't know, anxiety while showing pretty pictures. And what have you found to be true with that for you in terms of like why was it so important for you to bring in colour and play and just this vibrancy and joy into the space?

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Probably for the same sort of reasons of you there, not obviously not too much playful, but you know, colour can invoke emotions and it can it it can be soothing, it can be uplifting, it can it can make you feel better. And you know, these these people that we're talking about that we've lost, that they're colourful people, we're colourful people. Um yeah, you I think, you know, just you we all like bright stuff and we like we like things that look beautiful and and we have good taste, and but then just because you lose someone doesn't mean all of a sudden you you suddenly like you know cursive fonts and feathers and and pale colours. It it doesn't mean that. So and then they're not reflective of the people that we've lost either. So just think, you know, there can be sparks of light and colour in in all times of life.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yeah, I I remember after my mum died, I felt like the world went into grayscale. Like I felt like the colour drained from the world. Like I just somehow I couldn't see it, I couldn't access it, I couldn't like it's like I couldn't get to it anymore. And everything was just like tones of grey. Like that's just how I felt like I experienced the world like that for a very long time. And and now I have this sense of sometimes I go on colour walks, like particularly in winter, they're amazing. Like you just choose a colour and you go for a walk, and just spotting orange in the landscape, or a yellow of a car, or there is something about colour that you're right, it does, it it pulls on our feelings and our emotions, and it has this really visceral, like it's sort of you know, we get this sort of really, really lovely feeling. And I think colour has become so important to me and beauty and all these things that I sort of felt like I hadn't really noticed before I'd experienced grief.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Same. Yeah, exactly. The same. Um, yeah, it's like that feeling, isn't it? And again, I feel like you notice it more after after you've lost someone or something like that, any hard time. Where like you'll see a sunset and it's the most beautiful thing in the world, and just for that moment, it's a gorgeous sort of glimmer of a feeling that there's more to it, that there is hope, and that's kind of what we want our cards to to feel like as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

I have the same thing about sunsets.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

I just have this.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

And almost I have this, I have this funny like almost spiritual thing about sunsets too. Like sometimes just like experiencing that, you know, when the the rate, the rays are coming through, like the beautiful word, like it's the sun setting and the rays coming down, and you think there's just something so otherworldly to it. You know, I'm like that's clearly my mum saying hi to me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Yeah, exactly that. Yeah, my camera was full of sunsets.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Yeah, that particularly being in the north, right? There is something about like sunsets that they I know that I have that, that longing.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Maybe it's just seeing the sun.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Maybe it's just seeing the sun in any form. Let's go to let's go to men's mental health if we can, the big jump from sunsets. But what I want to one of the cards that you have is like a hello mate card. It's like what what's the language of that? It's like love you mate or here for you mate. Yeah. So the here for you mate, love you mate. Could you speak about what you have learnt about how men do or don't check in with each other?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yeah, they just don't, Susie. They just sort of crack on and yeah, so you just don't really talk about the feelings, but I do I do feel like there's a bit of a change in that narrative from seeing so many amazing men support groups and walk and talks and things cropping up because I think it's it's really being recognised. Yeah. But they just don't they just don't talk about the feelings at all. And you know, men are expected to be strong, aren't they, and just crack on and all that sort of manosphere stuff and everything like that. It's yeah, it's a scary place for men. I really think so.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Do you find yourself you have a son, I believe. Do you find yourself raising him in a way that he can talk about and validate and have his feelings validated?

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, probably think I told him probably gonna be doing it. He's a teenager and doesn't want to talk to me, but yeah, I'm constantly saying to him, like, it's okay. You know, when they get they you pick them up from school and they're grumpy and stuff, and you're like, it's okay to be tired or grumpy or not want to talk, just let me know that you're okay. And if there is something on your mind, you can always talk to me and things like that. Yeah, it's up to us, isn't it, to raise our boys in that way.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Yeah, and it is it is about how we're raising our boys as as well as our girls. Like there is like I I try to do the same with my son, I think he probably has the same thing now, he's now 17, where he's his headphones are on and I'm saying, feel your feelings, it's all fine, let's talk. And he's like, No, let's not. But there is something I think in that invitation and that normalizing of any emotion that feels really important. Yeah, I think so too. So you now work in the space of grief coaching.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

So yeah, I completed the holistic grief coaching certification with God Grief UK last year. And yeah, it's just wonderful to be stepping into that work. Um I'm really loving it. What is it about that that you like? Um I remember thinking early on after I'd lost your husband, thinking like I'd you know, I'd really like to be able to help someone through this. Um, you know, when I'm when I was sort of in a good place to and to be now now doing it, f it does feels really good. And um, yeah, grief coaching, it's it's very different to sort of traditional counselling or therapy. So, you know, counselling's more about talking about stuff and revisiting stuff, whereas coaching is about finding tools and setting goals and moving forward and it is more about as well, sort of sitting with the feelings, recognising them, and then trying to incorporate them into your day-to-day life as you build a life around it.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

How do you know when you're ready for counselling, therapy, or coaching? Like what's the stages of that in terms of grief?

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Uh I would say with grief, it's definitely when you know if you're feeling stuck in any way, even if you're like you know, you know, you're not you're feeling stuck in your sadness or you're feeling like you're numb and you can't get into your feelings properly, which is very, very common for the reasons we were talking about earlier. Uh people sometimes you can just be too scared to lean into those emotions because you you might get stuck there or you might not be able to stop.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

So yeah, so there okay, so you can experience grief as this sort of like you're acutely sensitive you're not the sensitive, you're acutely in it and you're aware of it and you're experiencing all the emotions. But there's also a version of grief where you don't feel anything. Like you're in that kind like you're not in the emotions, you're just protecting yourself from them.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Exactly, yeah. And I think that's probably extra common, isn't it? When when you're busy, you've got children, or if you know, if it is complex, then yeah, it's probably just too scared to go there.

unknown 31:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Do you ever feel afraid of grief still? Do you still ever have that sense that grief is frightening or it's something you want to back away from? Like, what's your relationship to grief now? No, I'm not afraid of it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

And I still have I still do have days where grief overwhelmed. And to me, I remember my son's birthday last year, it was just the worst. And that was yeah, there's just something about those kinds of days. There's no when they should be full of joy, but all you can see is the people that are missing from the day. And I think becoming a mum brings so much up when you've lost people as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Yeah, it does, yeah, it does. It does. There's something about sometimes I think you're experiencing it through like multiple eyes. There's like you and your own experience of it, and there's you as a mum, and there's you as that person who's missing out, and there's all these different things, and it can get I know that sometimes, you know, my and my experience is very different than yours, but I know sometimes for me that there are certain moments that can feel confusing and overwhelming because there are all those different, there are all those different pieces to it.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

My one of my times when I always feel it is when I go to football with my little boy on a Saturday morning and I see all the granddad's there and it hurts so much. Oh, yeah, but like yeah, his birthday just like thinking, oh my mum would have spoiled him so much and yeah, it's it can be really hard. But then yeah, I've learned to not, you know, just have a big cry, basically. I'll probably do the thing, well, throw myself in the back and put sad song gone just because like I need to cry about this. Or just have a good dance around the kitchen or just do anything.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yeah, do you find movement helps with grief? Because there's something that I learned that I I I sort of thought grief was very like it was kind of a heady. Like there's something about like, oh like I would just feel grief, or I didn't really understand that if I went for a walk or if I moved my body, or if I would even go for swimming, that would sort of help. Like I didn't understand that when I went through grief. There's something about movement helped me. I don't know whether you found the same.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Yeah, yeah. And that's what a lot of the coaching is. So it's more holistic, the coaching that I do, and it is all about you can't think your way out of it, it lives in the body. Okay. It's all on your nervous system.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

What are some other misconceptions that you find? So when people arrive with you and you have clients, like I've I've had sometimes I experience something about like fixing it. Like or taking it away. There's something like, I need to get rid of this, I need to fix it, I need it to go away, I need to stop it. I'm wondering, like, do you hear that in your practice? And then what do you do with that when you hear that?

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, yeah, that's a really common one. And it's because everyone around them is generally trying to fix it as well. And but yeah, it's just it's just not something that can be fixed. It's got to be something that's felt and moved through. The other thing, just you know, educating yourself and learning, learning things like that, it does live in your body. And you know, it's all to all your nervous system, it's a full person thing. And the other thing is about like, I don't know, feel like people sort of think, you know, you're stuck that if you talk about your person too much, or that's another big one. But you know, try to trying to find ways to continue your bond with that person is so important and really, really healthy.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Yeah, I'm so pleased we said that, because there is a moment, isn't there, that almost like when we get over our grief, we've almost there's a sort of an expectation we've not forgotten the person, but we're no longer like they're no longer quite so like in our lives with us. Like there's a oh, you're through your grief and you're not talking about it anymore, you're not talking about the person anymore, you're not really doing anything about it, so you're through it. That's something that I really loved when I heard the idea that grief is a way of connecting with that person, and it was a way of honouring that relationship, and that has really helped me go through periods of grief, and I can see it that in those moments that I'm experiencing grief, I'm kind of closer to them, and also by talking about them and by kind of keeping them alive in my world, there is the form of I won't say honoring again, but there is something there to me that I really like and it feels really hopeful and affirming to me. And I I think I saw somewhere that you have this I find really beautiful way of talking about your son having you're you've since remarried, and your business partner is your husband.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

But you have this way of talking about the two dabs, and this way that your your first husband is very present and is kept in your life.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Would that be and I think yeah, and something get asked about a lot because it's yeah, it's quite difficult. Uh it's quite controversial as well to, you know, for widows to find a new love and remarrying, and it but it doesn't mean leaving your other person behind at all. And you know, these people shape our lives and shape who we are, and you know, we're we're in business doing stuff to sort of honour him as well. And um, yeah, it's a wonderful thing that I've got such a supportive husband who, you know, honours everyone in my life as well. Um but yeah, and I just think it's a really good example and a good good message to be sending our son that you know you can take it all forward with you and you can make something beautiful out of something hard. And I think I hope that's really going to help him as he grows older as well.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

So on that note, I have five words for you. And one of my first words is not really is like it's two words, is disco balls. And the reason I want to bring this in now is because you've started to talk about like what you make of something. And you have this such a beautiful thing that is at the heart of your name. Would you mind speaking to what disco balls mean to you and what that lovely metaphor is that you have?

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, and so we had to sort of disco balls in our name is twofold. So what one is that we're both really into helps music and ibha and dancing under them, but the other one is the metaphor you've just mentioned, and that is a disco ball is hundreds of pieces of broken glass put back together to form a magical ball of light. You're not broken, you're a disco ball. I think it's just gorgeous. It's so gorgeous. Yeah, it's such a lovely metaphor, isn't it? Sorry, broken butt but still shine and life isn't a perfectly round ball, is it? It's it's made up of all these little bits of pieces and these chips and scars that we get along the way, but that's what makes us all all who we are.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

And what's so beautiful about it is like how those different pieces come together to form something. My sense of you, just just having met you, is that you've you've gone through these experiences and of that you have made, it's almost like you've made the discover ball. Like you have made this. I mean, the metaphor is so brilliant. But you have like, it's almost like I mean, part of this is you know, how we put ourselves back together, how we help others come back together. But it's also like then what you do with that, like you are radiating, not just in who you are as a person, because you clearly radiate joy, but there's also this sense of, you know, support and service that you offer in your company, in you know, running the marathon, in your grief work, that you are able to like shine light on this this conversation around suicide and around death and around grief and around this really fundamentally human part of our experience that we often try and silence and hide. And so it's not like a discable, often it's a rock and we hide it away and we put it in our damp cupboards and we don't want to look at it, but you've actually managed to shine light on these spaces that can be really dark and we don't want to look at. Yeah. Yeah. Celebrating you in that moment for doing that. Do you ever get tired of doing that? Is there a moment that you ever get to the point that you don't want to be the disco pole? You do want to be the rock.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Nothing not very often. Um we all have our bad days, don't we? But but no, it does. I just really love ex everything that we're doing. Um, you know, I felt like that when I was working in my corporate job, but did you? Yeah, yeah. And I think you know, you when you can go through so much, sometimes, you know, like spreadsheets and targets and stuff can just feel so draining, can't they? And unimportant. And I think it really prioritises what's important, doesn't it? And you need to find a little bit of meaning somewhere. I'm never going to take that for granted that I've I've been able to find that.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Yeah. Because you've what you found in it is that there is that purpose piece for you. And if you hold on to that purpose that helps you move through the grief.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and we did have times like we had a lot of bad loss, sad loss in my family last year, and yeah, we had a bit of a bad time towards the end of last year when you're starting a business and it's all getting a bit hard, and it's feeling like hard work and you're tired, and you're waiting for that sort of little breakthrough moment. But we did have to work hard at reminding ourselves of the purpose and the why, and that's what gets you through when things aren't always easy.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

I do think it's that way. I do think there are moments that I started if lost because of my mum. And often and sometimes I just forget, I just totally forget about that. There are those moments that I think, oh, I've had enough, or it's just too hard, or I should get a proper job. And it is connecting back to that why. It is like reminding yourself, like, why do you do what you do? And there and and it means so, so much.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Yeah, it does. But we wouldn't be human beings if we didn't wake, if we woke up every day, like bouncing out of bed, would be so you know, you have those days, and that's fine. But yeah, that's a if you can cling on to that why that helps.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

What are the what are the moments that you you've had that you're like, oh, this is working? Like I heard that you went to number 11 Downing Street. Um yeah, that was amazing. Yeah, so so what was that like?

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Uh that was so good. It was, yeah, it was a small business Saturday. 100 small businesses got picked. We had uh lunch in the House of Lords, and then we went into 11 Downing Street, yeah, let Rachel leaves, and it was yeah, it was just amazing being around so money, you know, inspiring small businesses, and everyone's got their own story. It was just being in Down and Street was just incredible, what a feeling.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Yeah. Um, so my other my other words for you, we started on one word and got yeah went in different ways. So my other words for you are hope. What does hope mean to you now? And this kind of connects with don't let it, actually.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

But that's what I think that why that's what that was. I think hope's the most important thing in the world. Yeah in those dark days, it can be all that we have. Yeah, yeah. And then yeah, that's what I find when when people get in touch with me and stuff, people aren't saying, How can I feel better? Or asking me for, you know, fixes or anything like that. People are saying, Can can you be okay again? What's your life like now? And that's all people are looking for. And sometimes, you know, when you're sharing your story so often, you can feel a bit sometimes you you know, when you get inside your own head and you're like, oh, do people think I'm attention seeking? But you're not looking for pity or anything like that. You're looking to give up us hope. That's why it's so important that we share, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Yeah, it is so important. And that that you're you're so right, just knowing it's gonna be okay. I think that's a question we all carry. Like, is it gonna be okay?

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Do you find people do reach out to you?

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Yeah, yeah, a lot.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Yeah, I always feel really honoured when someone shares a story with me.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Yeah, that's uh that's a like amazing to offer that space to them and to be in that space with them. Okay, my next my next words are again, it's two words. Mental health. So mental health is something that is close to ideas of suicide. And maybe this way you can tell me if I have some misassumptions. But what's mental health? What have you learned about mental health in your work and through these experiences?

SPEAKER_01 43:34

I think people struggle with it so much more than we know. And I think that's a scary thing, like some of the statistics about how many of us do have suicidal thoughts, how many of us struggle with our mental health, and how much of it goes unspoken about is quite scary, really. I think when you compare it to physical health, people hide it, it's just looked at so differently. It's looked at people are scared of looking weak, so they cover. up and they're ashamed of it and yeah but it's just equally equally as important and it's just it's just as normal as you know having a sore throat or something like that. It's it's yeah it's yeah we just have to be take it be so kind front to ourselves and really look after ourselves on that front.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Yes. Yes. And there's a I think there's something I read the other day that was around there's something around midlife particularly and how our mental health shifts and how we in this time of our lives we can be more vulnerable to suicide. I do remember reading that and I realized like how much does go on in this period. I think there was the report I was reading said there is this like epidemic of silence around what we're really feeling and what we're really going through in this period. And I wonder in your like suicide prevention work and being in this space whether you've seen anything around that and midlife being this period of of you know higher statistics around suicide.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Yeah and that's I've I've seen stuff about women as well sort of menopause and perimenopause. Okay. I've seen conversations about that and women are quite at risk at this age and it it doesn't really surprise me because the loads women carry you might have aging parents you might be a caregiver and you've got young children or you might even have older children who sort of flowing the nest and there's just so much going on isn't there? And then you've got your career as well and you kind of want a home and have a relationship and it it's just so much and then for men as well like again it's just they've got all this low going on as well but then just carrying it silently yeah it does seem to be yeah the the most sort of dangerous age doesn't it for struggling with your mental health but because you've got so much going on and you've got to be strong and crack on and show up everywhere and that the yeah the last thing on your list sometimes is is your mental health, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 46:00

But Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

You don't want to burden anybody with it.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

And that's the piece that yeah like have you found that there's a good way of you know it's first about acknowledging that isn't it to yourself and saying like oh like I'm beyond my capacity I'm I don't find that I'm coping very well that the next stage that we don't often get to is asking for help. Like have you found a good next stage for asking for help?

SPEAKER_01 46:26

I think it's just talking isn't it like sharing it really is the best way of lightening the load for yourself and just asking for support from from whoever mean how many of us have sort of been you know going along with things without asking for help from our partners or anyone or just carrying this silent load but I think that's that's a thing isn't it it's a silent load that you're carrying and as soon as you know a problem shared as a problem halved as a cliche but it's okay. Yeah. But you just assume don't you that everyone else is is so busy as well and that they haven't got time for you. But no I'd hate to think of one of my friends struggling and not telling me when I could have done something to help.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Yeah that's such a good point isn't it like thinking about being on the other side of that and not knowing that somebody's somebody's going through that and that you do want to I don't know send the card or receive the card or there's that led to a relationship. Okay last word for you is love yeah because that is the other part of your business.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

What has love come to mean to you said hope is the most important thing but my change of mind and say love is but you can have both. They can have both yeah love it's just yeah it's just everything isn't it and I think you know when we first think of love we think of hearts and Valentine's Day and flowers and romantic love but to me that's not what love is at all and love is friendship and our family and the way we care about each other and you know love's just just being proud of people and supporting them and caring about them.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

It's just everything isn't it and it's so beautiful how you bring it all together you know just doubles and love and loss. Um when you think about the thought that you brought today that don't let it what does that look like in your life now? Like how do you experience that thought now?

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Yeah as I said just like sometimes I I just I think about it a lot and I I do sometimes think it has defined my life but not in not in the way that I meant it and I think that that's a yeah that that I've had control over that. So you know it's yeah I've it's defined my life but not in a not in a sad way in a way that I've used it to hopefully help other people. But yeah I think yeah it's a great thought to keep hold of if if you're ever struggling because you know it's like healing it's a lot of time but it is a lot of mindset as well and anyone who sort of you know just step into getting support or asks for that help that we're talking about you're not letting these things define you you're not letting them burn you you're not letting them you know maybe lead you down paths that you might not need to go down. So anything that's troubling you, don't lie, just ask for help.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

Rachel thank you so much for being here thank you for sharing like all that you've you've experienced and learned and and these wonderful cards. Thanks so much for lovely I'm so grateful for Rachel for being here today. I did feel before talking to her a little bit of trepidation because there is something about talking about grief and death and suicide that can feel difficult and sometimes there are conversations that we back away from. And I came away feeling joyful and hopeful and more able to connect with the colour and vibrancy of our lives. I wonder whether you did too. So let me know whether this is something the thought that Rachel brought which was don't let it is something that you will keep and you probably all have your own narrative or your own thing that you're thinking I don't want to be defined by that thing. I don't want that to be my story. I don't want that to take away the hope and the joy and the vibrancy that I hope my life will have. And so what does that mean to you? Don't let it don't let it what could that be for you and how can you use that to help you move through a difficult moment the other thing I want to say is that there is something here that reminded me about checking in and about how normalizing a language of checking in particularly between men, the love you make message is just so brilliant does feel so important right now. And maybe if you are somebody that is wondering about a friend or somebody who is trying to craft the perfect sentence in a what's that message maybe just saying love you mate might be a really good first step. If you do need more support then the campaign against living miserably which Rachel mentioned can help. So they're a registered charity in England and Scotland and they work to prevent suicide and support people through this crisis. So if this episode has brought up anything for you, if you are worried about someone in your life reaching out to a friend to calm to someone can matter. So on this one I will leave you with this will you keep this? Will you share it? That one feels maybe really important this week or will you forget it? And maybe if the only thing you do this week is to check in with a friend and you tell them that you love them. I think that would make the world a a better place for all of us. As you might be able to tell this episode has really hit me, has really struck me has really really stayed with me. If you want to keep thinking about some of the ideas in this episode then you can come to my substack which is called More Good Days and we talk about all things wellbeing there and sometimes we talk about grief. So do come over there. And if you do find that you need some more support through just everyday life everyday emotions then do come over to if loss dot here and find out about how to work with me and the coaching sessions and resources that we have over there. As always thank you so much for being here thank you for spending your time here and some of your listening moments and I will be here next Monday for another thought that one of my guests has kept and maybe you want to too so bye for now