Why Life Feels Better When We Do It Together with Laurence McCahill

There’s something that changes when we stop doing life on our own. Maybe that's an idea that only makes sense once it’s shared, a feeling that softens when someone else is there to hear it, or the magic that comes from being a room of likeminded people singing Queen.

In this episode, I talk to Laurence McCahill about connection in its most everyday form and what it means to gather, to listen, and to create spaces where people can be themselves. We explore why life can feel lighter, clearer, and more alive when we do it together, and why so many of us are quietly craving that kind of connection now.

We talk about friendship across decades, the difference between being around people and truly connecting with them, and the subtle shift from doing things alone to letting other people in. There’s something here too about midlife — about reaching a point where success or productivity matter less, and being with the right people matters more.

Laurence shares the thought he has kept: that he is the glue that brings people together. Not by being the loudest voice in the room, but by listening, noticing, and helping others feel at ease. It opens up a wider question of how we each bring people together in our own lives, often without even realising it.

This episode is for anyone wanting more connection in their lives and hoping for places where it might be found.

Laurence McCahill is co-founder of The Happy Startup School, an alternative business school and thriving community of purpose-driven entrepreneurs and leaders. He's a designer, coach and community builder, and the creative force behind their legendary gatherings Summercamp and Alptitude. He spends much of year mentoring founders towards a more fulfilling path on their flagship Happy MBA program.

The Happy Startup School | Summercamp | Alptitude | Happy MBA
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Laurence also mentioned How To Know a Person by David Brooks and we talk about this episode from Georgina Jones

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of A Thought I Kept, a podcast about the ideas that stayed. I'm your host, Claire Fitzsimmons. And there's something that I've been thinking about lately. That self-care needs company. That growth and change, even knowing, rarely happen in isolation. We can read the books, we can listen to the podcast, we can underline the quotes, and still there's something that doesn't quite shift, doesn't quite land for us, doesn't quite make the thing happen that we hope will happen. And sometimes I think what we're missing isn't another good idea. It's other people. Which brings me to today's guest. I'm really excited to share this episode with Lawrence McCahill with you. He is the co-founder of the Happy Startup School, an alternative business school and a thriving community of purpose-driven entrepreneurs and leaders. He's a designer, a coach, and a community builder. And he's the creative force behind the legendary gatherings, whether that's summer camp or altitude. These are spaces where people come together and they get to ask deeper questions about money and purpose and happiness. Lawrence also mentors founders through the Happy MBA and helps them shape businesses that aim to make money and do good and be happy. In this conversation, we talk about friendship across decades, about gathering people together and well, about mountains and nature shifting her sense of scale. We talk about what success gives us and what midlife offers. Lawrence brings a thought that can help many of us in these times that can feel so disconnecting. So here is Lawrence and the thought that he kept. And I'm curious whether you will too. Hi Lawrence, thanks for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Thank you for having me. Pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

So how are you robbing in today's conversation?

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Well, at a very wet UK at the moment. So yeah, normally I get out for my early morning walk, but I haven't done that today. So maybe feeling a little bit, don't know. I I just get so used to being outdoors early that yeah, when I don't do it, I feel a little bit kind of, yeah. I don't know what it is. Sludgy is a weird word. Um, but also, yeah, buzzing as well. We had the closing ceremony for our group programme last night. We've been together for like five months. It's a group we run called Happy MBA, and so we had yeah, it's always the thing of like an ending which is kind of great and connecting, emotional, but also a bit sad as well because yeah, a lot of them have finished this journey with us, so it's they're on to passage new. So yeah, feeling kind of relieved of sober in some ways because it's a lot of holding space for five months, but also yeah, excited for their what's next for each of them, really, because they've all got things that they're working on together. So yeah, looking forward to see what happens with that.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

And I suppose, in a way, does that daily going outside help you process those things? Like I have a similar thing this morning where I always go out for a morning walk, and this morning I've missed it for various reasons, and there's something that sort of still sits with you, like something that you still haven't processed. And I wonder whether there's something about what happened last night and what didn't happen this morning.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah, I think so. I yeah, I think of walking for me as partly a physical thing in terms of just yeah, like you said, getting out and moving, and you're you know, those thoughts kind of just start to fly away rather than be stuck in your head. But also, I think, yeah, there is a I think a creative side to it too. Problems get lighter, I find, and also ideas pop up that I wouldn't otherwise have if I was just stuck at home on the screen. So yeah, I just do it because I've got a dog as well, just sit there looking really grumpy if I don't take him out. So the accountability is helpful, but it's like anything, I suppose. It's a commitment I've made. So when I do it, it's it's just a thing I do. I don't normally question it.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Which is probably why you do it, because you don't have to question it.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Exactly. And also I'm by the sea, by the downs like I move somewhere deliberately to make it easy, so I don't have to think hard about what do I do, where do I go? It's just like it's there, it's on my doorstep. So yeah, I kind of intentionally force myself to be somewhere that I wanted to step outside because I can see the weather, I can see the scene rather than stuck in the city somewhere and being very kind of isolated.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

When you've ended something like last night, how do you then start again? Do you give yourself a moment to let it kind of like decompress and let the the experts sit in, or are you straight on to the next thing? Like what do you do with that, with an ending?

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Um It depends really. I think with something like this, we have a relatively quick turnaround because we're doing another cohort in about five weeks or starting another cohort in five weeks. So we do two a year, one in the spring, one in the autumn. In the summer, we have a lot more time to sort of decompress because we have about three months between the cohorts, and then we have our summer camp, which we may talk about later coming up. So I guess we have a a cycle of seasons in our work that we found a way to make the cadence work. So yeah, I suppose we get a little time to pause. I'm going away for a few days to Devon next week with some friends and family. So yeah, that'll be a little kind of circuit break to uh we've got a weird COVID kind of like PTSD thing there. Circuit breaker.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

I haven't heard that for such a long time.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

I know. Um, but yeah, just a little ritual, I guess, to honour the end of something. So yeah, I definitely am a fan of those things.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Each week on the podcast, I ask a guest the same question, and that is what is the thought that they've kept? And I'm just curious about how you approach this because my sense of you, having read your newsletters and watched your videos and listened to your podcast, is you quote people often, and that you are somebody who is able to assemble great ideas from others and to make those available to the people around you. And as I was thinking about talking to you today, I was wondering whether I'd set you a really cruel task and a really impossible task, and how you would even approach that task because it feels like you readily have available to you these ideas that can help us navigate our lives.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah, I found this surprisingly difficult. And I was trying to work out why. I think A, because I think a lot of the things that I've uh have influenced me, I share. So something that I've kept quiet is is quite personal, and maybe and again I'm quite an open book generally, so I I like to think that whatever I do learn I share with others, whether publicly or one-to-one or in small groups. I think in some ways I see myself as a bit of a curator, so I do like sharing the work of others. And I don't, it's not to say I don't have a voice myself, but I just feel like I'm a connector and and actually going to the thought that I that I literally thought about 10 minutes before this call, because I had a few ideas, things my dad had said to me, things that random people I'd at when my parents used to run pubs over the years, some you know, person you never saw again who just said something in passing, and they were all valid, and I think they all do influence, and maybe we can get onto them too. But the thought that actually was a friend of mine said to me when we were at uni together where we I was sharing a house with four other guys, and they were all really different, we were all very different. But I was friends with all of them, and I always thought that they were really close to each other. But she made the point, I think about a year later when I realised a couple of them weren't still in touch that I was the glue that that cut that kept that house together, basically. I hadn't really thought about that till recently until you mentioned it, and that made me realize that oh, maybe there's something I'm doing that I'm not even aware of that I can connect people who seemingly don't have much in common to to uh to find a common language, goal, you know, purpose, whatever it is. At the time it was just five guys trying to stay sane and not beat each other up about nicking their milk in the in the kitchen or whatever it was. It's a very important role. Exactly, especially when you're a student and you're living on a very tight budget. But I've I've seen how that is a gift that I've actually taken through to life, whether it's the work we do today, like the thing I talked about this program we're doing. I host small groups there. We had someone from whether it's people from Australia, Philippines, the US, all over Europe, so people from wildly different backgrounds, industries, walks of life, but who come together, they've got shared values, they've got a similar sort of goal. And also, yeah, I see my role and our role to sort of create a space where people can be themselves and open up and get to where they need to get to, whatever that might be.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

How do you realise that about yourself before your friend had shared that?

SPEAKER_00 8:39

No, not at all. No. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

What did you think your role was before?

SPEAKER_00 8:45

I was 19 or 20, I didn't really have a role other than looking back. I've been able to look back at my story a bit to understand why do I do the work that I do. And I've realized there's a few ingredients, I guess, that have shaped it. One was my parents were from an Irish background, so my my dad was a teacher when we were growing up, my mum was a nurse. My dad used to play Irish music a lot, so I'd be spending a lot of time in pubs in Kilburn as a kid, sort of being absorbed by lots of loud men and noise and music and smoking back in the late 70s, early 80s. Very different place. Um, and then my parents decided to run a pub. So they bought a pub in Highgate in the late 70s, and over the course of about the next 15-20 years, they moved around the whole of London running different pubs. So my upbringing mainly was living above a pub and spending a lot of time in in pubs, which I think looking back influenced my my world because that was normal for me. It wasn't weird to be in a pub, but you know, being around people all the time. There's always characters, there was people coming and going all the time. And so when I eventually got married, moved into a flat with my wife, I was like, this is weird. I think I tried to recreate the pub environment in my house buying like beer mats and dartboards and stuff. She thought I was mental. Um, but this sense of community is is what I took away from it. There was there was noise, there was there was humour, there was people being honest, there was all sorts of challenge as well, you know, in terms of you can imagine I used to work behind the bar when I was a bit older, and you're dealing with people again from all walks of life, people with strong opinions, people who've drunk too much. So I think definitely that influenced I think my need for community, but also I don't know, just how I moved through life because I just naturally would spend time in those places where people gathered and and eventually want to create spaces where people gathered, not just sit on my own or or kind of wait for someone else to do that. So yeah, this need to gather people was something that I learned from my parents and also brought into more now business, which again, we didn't myself and my business partner didn't find those spaces, uh certainly the spaces that align with who we were at the time when we started out in business. So I think that's probably what led me to do the work I do today.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

What kind of spaces did you want to create at the beginning of your career? And what kind of spaces do you think you would create now? Are they different or do they share something?

SPEAKER_00 11:00

I mean, at the beginning, I wouldn't say I had that I I knew of that particular need. I definitely didn't feel at home in a lot of the sort of business events we would go to, and this is like almost 20 years ago now, when I'm with Subrighton, myself and Carlos, my co-founder, set up a small web design studio making websites and apps. And and we would go to like I mean I I remember going to like speed networking events in in Sussex and chambers of commerce events, and and again, some of those things maybe have moved on a little bit, but you can imagine back then they were pretty sort of cutthroat places, and everyone was just selling to each other, no one was buying, no one was interested in you, everyone's handing out business cards and looking over their shoulder in case there's someone more interesting to talk to. So yeah, I felt like I couldn't be myself ultimately, and and probably dress too smart or dress too messily, whatever, it never quite fitted in and tried to fit in. And so I think more and more we did those things, and eventually we go to design conferences and more kind of interesting, cool events, but still there was an element of performing and having to fit in, and yeah, I th it just felt like it was all a bit transactional, I suppose. It didn't feel relation relational. Um, and the bits that were interesting I found was like the little breaks and time to have a coffee or a bit of food, but they were always cut short, so you ended up not really getting time to talk to people because you were all facing a stage or having to network in the traditional sense and and pitch or you know, sell. And that's what I found frustrating was yeah, that wasn't me really. And and I think we realized, oh, maybe there's another way, maybe this doesn't have to be how things are. And and that was a I think a bit of a revelation that yeah, maybe other people are feeling the same thing. That's kind of what led us to doing some small events at the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

It's interesting because I I guess in a sense a pub is an in-between space when you think about what it offers or what that community offers and what it does. It doesn't have a clear purpose in a sense, other than to gather and to hold and to be a container for whatever comes up and arises in a more organic way.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, exactly. And I think, well, pubs back then I think were a bit different. I mean, it's quite rare now to walk into a pub and you've got the publican and his wife, my mum doing the food, my dad running the bar. It was quite a traditional setup, but it was very much a like a homely atmosphere. People would come for them to hang out with them to eat my mum's food. It was my mum making the food and her ingredients, not some sort of brewery-bought frozen, you know, ingredient. So I think there was an element of autonomy they had that a lot of I think people who run pubs now don't have. So it felt like even if you didn't know someone in the pub, you'd walk in and feel at home straight away.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Yeah, so let's go back to this idea about you being the glue. Like I'm really curious about that. So, what is that what are you doing when you're the glue in a in a group of people? Like, what are you actually doing to be that person that holds, you know, you said the different people, different experiences, different values. What are you doing to hold people together?

SPEAKER_00 13:55

I think one thing is being a sort of grounded presence for people, is one thing they tell me. Is like I'm a sort of a safe pair of hands, you know, so I can make people feel at ease around me. And so I think that's one thing is like people need to feel safe around you if they're gonna open up, if you're gonna be able to even help them to share anything about themselves or connect people. So I think that's one thing is just trying to make people feel settled first, but I also think I'm a good listener, so just being curious about people is an important trait that I've sort of learned, and also I think anyone can learn, but I think it's a skill that a lot of people don't have and certainly would benefit from acquiring because yeah, I believe I mean you can go out to a party or to an event and no one will ask you a question all night, um, which I find amazing because I'm just fascinated by people. Um I'd rather I'd rather hear from other people than than talk myself. So I think that's why I just try to get people to open up and allow them to feel heard, and I think through that people feel feel safer then to connect with others, and other people can connect with their story. So there's an element of of getting the group to be a good listener, you know, to actively listen as well. And that's something that we bring into our program in particular, is you know, we don't just for it to be like we're the mentors and coaches, we you know do all of that and you're just here for each other. Actually, if we can all hear each other, then it will be a a stronger community because they're more connected, they can be more vulnerable together. Yeah, they'll find some shared reality where they feel less alone because they can hear someone else sharing something that maybe they're struggling with too, and that creates that bond and sense of connection because if someone else is showing how amazing they are and how great they're feeling and how amazing their business is, then the other person's just gonna go, Oh, okay, it's just me who's struggling with it. So again, creating a culture, I guess, that makes people feel that there's no judgment and there's no sense of you're doing it wrong here, you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

So, how do you deal with those moments that I mean, some of your work feels like it could have a more traditional host role? So if you think about the summer camp or the the five-month mentoring, coaching group that you just finished, or even altitude, each of those, in a sense, could have a more traditional host, somebody that is seen up front, somebody that is bringing us an energy, somebody that is like they themselves are in a sense the container for it. How do you deal with that moment that you're asked to step into a much more like not just holding people together and gathering them, but being a centre of attention and somebody who has to determine the energy of that space?

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Um, I mean, I'm not, you might have gathered, not loving, I don't love being the centre of attention, so I'm not somebody who loves being in the spotlight. Um I mean, you had Georgina Jones on the podcast, and she's our host for Summer Camp or was last year and will be this year. Um so I'm I'm happy to do those roles, but I've I know there's other people who are better at it than I am. So, you know, for example, the first summer camp, myself and Carlos hosted it, but I think we quite quickly realised that A, we can't be fully present because we've got a million other things that we're thinking about whilst also doing this role, but also we want to be fully present with the people that come. Again, like my dad in the pub being you know, having staff so that you can chat to the customers. And so I think for me it's about like again the curation piece, really. Like with SummerCamp, I get my buzz from designing the experience beforehand and being able to be fully in it when we're in it. Other people would feel I mean Carlos is happier, sort of grabbing the mic, being on stage, being that kind of connector on stage, and so we found our roles within the different aspects of what we do. I prefer smaller groups, one-to-one, those kind of interactions more than they do being the sort of showman on stage. So I think it's I guess leaning into your natural strengths and where you get your energy really. And for me, I get more energy from the the months in the build-up where we're sort of curating who's gonna speak and you know who's coming, and and just that whole design process because at my core, I guess I'm a designer really, and so that feels fun and energizing for me because it's it's like a fun, playful exercise where you're thinking nothing bad's gonna come out of this, you know. If we're designing the buddy groups for our program, you know, like, oh, that person might get with them, and that you know, as I can see this could work. You're starting to orchestrate a world, I guess, that they'll be in, and you hope that it's gonna work. It's like building a team, you're putting the right people in the right places and hoping that serendipity strikes and that your gut feeling works.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

And what is that piece? So, as you're assembling, you're bringing people together, there is that piece about you what you organize, what you determine, what you try to make happen in advance, and there's what happens in the moment and the chemistry and the interactions. How do you deal with that sense of the organic and the controlled and the magical pieces in the structure? Like, how do you navigate those two very, very different things?

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Um I'm I'm comfortable with uncertainty. I I think, and again, me and Carlos are very different people. He's like much more structured, comes from a scientific background. I'm someone who's much more intuitive and sort of gut-driven, who's learnt to be more structured, and we kind of met in the middle already. I think we're both comfortable being in both those spaces. But I think there's an element of like altitude's a good example. So the the leadership retreat we run in the Alps, it's a week-long event. It came about because summer camp we've been doing for a couple of years, and it's a big undertaking, it's a year's work, you know. It's it's 150 people, everyone's staying for three to four days, people flying in, bringing in t TPs, beltents, catering, everything. So we couldn't do another one of those. People were like, Oh, we should come to Australia and do summer camp. Like, no, we'll probably burn out or die in the process. And also, we want it to feel special, we want all the things to the things we do to be rare and and special, not like we're just doing another thing and scaling it. So there was an appetite to do a a smaller event that was, I would say, easier to run for us as hosts, and also one one where we could be more in it as as not just facilitators but as part of the group. That week was intentionally designed with a lot less structure to it than Summer Camp because SummerCamp has you know pretty much programmed talks, workshops, experiences from morning to night. Lots of space still to hang out and be together, but as organisers, producers of it, it's pretty programmed. And you can opt out of things and decide to sit by the leg or go for a sauna or have a chat by the fire pit, all those things are there, but you don't feel like you have to attend everything. Whereas with Altitude, the intention with that was what would happen if we brought a small group of amazing founders and leaders together to an amazing place for a week. It kind of got out of the way, to be honest, not try and program every minute because these are all busy people who every other day of their life they've got meetings, they've probably got kids drop-offs, they've got older parents, whatever it is, that there's stuff that is in their diaries. So that space is something that I've learned to love in terms of particularly that event bill. So we try and bring that now into summer camp and some of the other stuff we do because I don't think we get enough space in our lives, so when we're given it, it feels like a real treat, even if we're buying something where in some ways we want to see the value of it. So it's this balance between as an event organiser and someone with a business trying to get people to to do things, people want to see that there's a benefit to it and there's going to be a tangible outcome at the end. And at the same time, I know that the real value of these spaces is the in-between bits, the conversations on the mountaintop or the the question that someone asks over dinner that they didn't expect, like this podcast, you know, something that someone says to you sticks with you and might influence your trajectory for the next few years. If we don't create enough space in the agenda, people are just gonna feel a like they need a break by the end, which isn't the point because they've come there for that, but also that people have forgotten, I think, how valuable it is to just be in conversation with someone and not feel rushed and not feel like they have to be somewhere else. And so having space to then, I don't know, have a spin off c conversation, someone else joins you're m mapping out an idea together, or you go on an impromptu walk in the forest or something, or by the lake, then those things feel like you're a five year old again 'cause you know, you have that sense of freedom and And time stands still in some ways, which again is so rare, I think. So that yeah, I enjoy those the balance between structure and serendipity, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

I'm wondering, you said that it feels like a treat to be in that space. And what I was thinking is that I wonder if it also feels slightly anxiety-inducing to people because they need the familiarity and the safety of a structure of some kind where they know what they get out of it, even though that's not the right thing. So when somebody comes to one of these events and you're in this in-between space, how do you kind of unteach that impulse to have a like the deliverable? Like, how do you make it that they value connection and gathering and the in-between just as much as you do?

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Well, I think it almost self-selects, I would say. I think there's a lot of people out there who value the seven steps to success or the certificate of the end or the kind of badge of completion. Um, or like we're all gonna get here, we're all gonna launch a group programme, we're all gonna get to seven figures in our business, whatever it is, those things exist. And to be honest, they make me sort of die a little bit inside because it's it's so linear, and so in some ways, it it's promising something that might not be good for you. When we used to run a web design agency, we could just take projects and build an app, even if we knew deep down it wasn't the thing that they needed to do. And to be honest, by the end of that journey, we ended up talking ourselves out of projects because we were like, we've been on this journey before, we've done it ten times. You don't need to build an app, you need to go away and create a paper prototype and test it out with some customers and come back to us when when you've found out if there's demand for this. And so I think I would say there's people out there who crave more spacious experiences where they know that there's no silver bullet answers, they know that actually the real answers A within them, or in conversation with others, or in a space like the mountains or the farm we do summer camp, you know, somewhere outdoors, which will unlock some of these insights that they probably already have but can't quite access yet. And I would say, um, in some ways, we try to get people to tune into what they're there for. So, you know, it might be different for everyone, but we do try and say to people, like, what would success look like come the end of the week or come the end of this program? Like, where would you love to be by then? What does that feel like? So maybe less about I want to have smashed my targets for X and Y, but more I want to feel clearer, or I want to feel more energized, or I want to feel more excited about my next step, you know, the future, what does that look like? More hopeful. Because I think all of those things turn into energy, which then turns into action and and I would say results. So yeah, that more kind of sense of like we were saying at the beginning about how you feel in your body, not just kind of strategically and logically how things feel.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Have you noticed anything change in what people are longing for? So after doing these events for a number of years, have you seen those longings and those yearnings and those hopes that people bring at the beginning change?

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Um, yes, and also I suppose we've got clearer and more confident about our work. So I'd say our work has deepened as we've been on this journey ourselves. So, like if you came to Summer Camp 2014 when we did our first one, it you know, the essence was there, but I think it was a lot more about startups, it was a lot more about getting your ideas out there. So we it would tend to attract some more people like that who it was more about, you know, it's about my business, my idea, and that's why I'm here. Whereas I think now, and maybe because I've got older, Carlos has got older, the audience we've got uh tend to be in midlife in some ways. And again, midlife for me is like as big as 35 to 60, 75, you know, it's it's a big broad range. But people who are asking themselves some bigger questions, and I think probably COVID as well has influenced it in terms of this need for connection and community. I don't think um we take for granted anymore. I think it's almost a non-negotiable for a lot of people, and and if it isn't, then they're probably sort of missing it or seeking it even if they're not aware of it. So I would say more and more people are they might say, Oh, I'm here because I want to launch my business, or I'm here because I want to grow my business, but they'll come for those things, but deep down they might not talk about the business all weekend, you know. They'll probably open their heart to someone they just met, and maybe this happened to you at SummerCount. It's like someone asks you a question and you're like bailing your eyes out because no one listens to you in real life and they do at SummerCount. So yeah, but like I said, we attract a really good group of curious people, and that that actually lends itself to a much deeper sense of connection than would otherwise be possible. And again, this is what we were craving all those years ago is a sense of we could be friends rather than we're just kind of associates or um grander people we met at a networking event.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Which is a different way of looking at it because traditionally the view was that you don't work with friends and family. I come from an entrepreneurship background. My dad had his own business, my brothers both did and do, and that was the message that you build relationships with people you work with, but they're not friendships. And I think it's really interesting the way that connection and genuine connection and care is at the center of what you do, and that it's a it's not just allowed, but it is celebrated and encouraged.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah, I suppose me and Collis have dispelled that myth in some ways. I mean, we went to school together, we were friends way before we started a business together, we've been running businesses together for 20 odd years now. So it's in some ways we break the rule book by you know, we're we're friends but very different as well. So I think that probably helps the fact that we're not training on each other's toes. We have some ways different ways of looking at the world, different brains, but also complementary skills, which we've managed to find a path that works together. Um obviously, my parents ran a pub. Um, that was a family business. Um I would say, yeah, I'm still friends with my friends from school, Carlos being one of them. And so I I've realized as well, is like one of the gifts I've been given is like a really strong friendship circle for 40 years now, which has been my bedrock, which I feel like has given me that sense of oh, why can't we have this in every walk of life? Like, why do we just need to keep that and personal alive? So I think the friendships that I've got, I feel like that's like the bedrock of the community we've built, really. Is you know, every person we've met on this journey has just added something new to the community in a really lovely and why a lovely way that makes it more resilient, I think. And so, yeah, I see it as just a collection of individuals that have kind of slowly grown this community to like what's now a global community, but we can never have done that from the start in terms of yeah, try and scale it or grow it with a more sort of intentional way. It's been very organic in terms of how it's how it's grown and and taken, God, twelve, thirteen years to get to this point.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

What is it like now being the glue that holds that together?

SPEAKER_00 28:30

I love it. Yeah, it's a joy. I mean, it's like I get to And again, this was interesting that you know you the the thought you kept quiet. One of the uh things that my dad said to me very early on when I was uh setting out in life was you can count all your good friends on one hand, and that was something I was gonna share. And in some ways, I was I've agreed with him and also been trying to challenge it for my whole life, I think. Because I would say I do have my best friends all on one hand, and also I've met some amazing new friends and and really close friends through through the work that we do. Uh and I probably thought I'd made all the friends I'm ever gonna make when I got to 40, and I'm now 52. And we started the Happy Startup School at 40, which is interesting because a lot of people we work with are are gonna hit a milestone age like 40 or 50, and they feel like they're done. And the people look at the photos of me and Carlos when we started out thinking, Oh, you look so innocent. I was like, We were four years old, we weren't 25. Um, so so yeah, A, you can always reinvent yourself, but B, there's a whole world of amazing people out there that are just craving connection and community too. And I think when you do meet people in later life, I feel like you can a bit like this podcast, you can go deeper quicker if you if you have the right intention, and and yeah, all the events we've done all around the world, the programs we've run, it feels like I can not see some of these people for two or three years or even longer, and then when you do see each other, it's like you were together yesterday. A bit like a good friend from school or work or university, that sense of you've shared something together, an experience or a journey together that you can never break, and so you don't need to see each other every day, but you can reconnect on a level that is pretty powerful. So, yeah, I think that's what I love is it's like different pen pals all around the world, really, that you can kind of call upon and also connect with each other as well, which I love is like, oh, you're gonna be in Goa, talk to my friend Apu, or you're gonna be in you know, this place in the States in Portland, go and check, you know, meet Lena and finding out that people in the community connect and have become collaborators, friends without us even knowing often. That's what I get a kick from, much more than being on stage, just hearing those stories of yeah, that would have maybe never happened if we hadn't started this thing years ago. So that keeps me going, really, knowing that yeah, there's more interesting collisions and connections to happen.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Well, I like that collisions too. That's interesting. How do you not burn out? Walking helps the walk you didn't have today.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

The I'll do that afterwards. The sun's actually out, which it hasn't been out for about three years. Yeah, I I'm I'm really good at I would say carving out time for myself, so I almost feel like it's uh a kind of responsibility to model what I wish for those that we work with in the community too. Because it's easy to I don't know if you were there for um Apu's talk at Summer Camp last year, but our friend Apu is social entrepreneur based in Goa shared this story about you know it's easy to burn out doing something you hate, but it's also easy to burn out doing something you love. Yes. So it's a good question because yeah, I was in the beginning, I believe in the beginning of like, yeah, I could work 24 hours doing this. So I wouldn't say I've reached burnout, but I definitely feel like we reached a point probably about seven, eight years ago, where we started Happy Startup School. We closed our agency by that point. We were probably about three years in, but we still hadn't quite found a model, a financial model, business model that worked. So we would I think that year we did like four retreats, like India, Costa Rica, the Alps, summer camp, online courses, meet up. I mean, we it sounds great on the outside, but yeah, energetically and sort of focus-wise, it was difficult. So yeah, I think at that point I was like, okay, I can't have another year like that year, so I need to find some boundaries, and so yeah, having a dog helps. Being in Brighton helps because we've got the you know nature on our doorstep. But yeah, I I think also having like Lana and Carlos who do the program with me, almost sort of fellow mentors, but also almost like and we supervise each other really because you know we're again we're looking after people for five months, we have a lot of stories that come up, a lot of challenges. So again, having them to sort of keep ourselves sane through this process is helpful too. And again, we have a local community, so we have socials and things to sort of go to that aren't things we necessarily need to run, but we can just hang out with other founders and people like us who are also building community and yeah, having that sense of connection outside of our own thing is helpful.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Why do you think you said something about nature at one point and that you were situating your events in like the summer camp at the farm and Alpitude in the French Alps? I think. Why is that piece for you so important? And I suppose it does sort of connect with the burnout piece as well. But why is that piece about nature so important for how you conceive and run your events?

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Well, going back to those events that we used to go to when we first started out, was this sense of there's no it felt like there's no imagination, like no innovation in event organizing. Like I'd go to design and innovation conferences in an old stuffy conference centre, and it was like this contrast of like you're talking about innovative things, but we're sitting here in this really dry, soulless sort of auditorium that doesn't it's not bringing out the best in people. So I always had this sense of like, and again, maybe my upbringing in sort of my parents' pub, but like feeling of like people here aren't being themselves, like what why is this? You know, what what would make them be themselves? And I find, I don't know about you, but if you're gonna walk, particularly if it's like a wet day and everyone's got the max on, if it's a real grounding experience, like there's no egos there, you don't really know who anyone is who anyone is or what they've done in their life, there's no sort of show of success. So I I find I've always found being out in nature is a real leveller, and it I find it brings out the best in people because yeah, we're all dealing with the same stuff, particularly in the UK, you know, the conditions can can influence things. But um, yeah, I I think partly through my love of festivals and nature is is part of it. I've seen a lot of well, I found a lot of healing in nature, I found a lot of joy in nature, but also when we've brought groups out to amazing places, just it's made our lives easier as hosts and facilitators, really. Like you go to the mountains, like the hard work's done. I mean, it's like you know, you're just in this majestic backdrop, you feel about this big, you know, literally. And so your ideas, your you get this sense of a humility, but also b like possibility because you're like, what am I worried about? Like these have been here for millions of years. Like my problem that I think is big is suddenly now pelled into insignificance. And also just moving as well. Movement and being outside obviously helps with this, not exclusively, but yeah, being on a hike, this sense of you can share something really personal, and it just kind of like flies away because you're just moving along, and you could be chatting to one person one minute, and then the next minute you're chatting to someone else. So, again, we're not having to orchestrate this. Naturally, people just start to talk to different people, they move at different paces. There's an element of community too, looking after people who may be struggling, slowing down. It's kind of like everyone helping each other. So, again, without you, it's not like a race to the top, it's very much a uh a journey together and one that we all complete together and celebrate together. These are the spaces I want to be in, like me and Carlos do these events because we want them. So I want to spend more time in the mountains, so I'm gonna do an event in the mountains, why not? And again, this is what we teach people like build a business around who you are. Like, if you don't do it, why if you don't if it doesn't make you happy, why are you doing it, basically? So that's that's our ethos, and it's also how we how we build our business.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

How do people hold on to those ideas afterwards? Because there are so many pieces to this around self-knowledge and knowing and getting to the exact idea, having the connections to facilitate that. How do they come out of those environments that you create and then continue to make the thing happen? Because often making the thing happen in and of itself, like it's that's the difficult thing. And you how do they not lose hold of those realizations or ideas once they leave you and this lovely, wonderful, safe container that you're creating?

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Yeah, our bubble. Your bubble. Like, what about the real world? It depends. Some people need more follow-on support, like they've got the idea, they've got that insight, and they don't want to be left alone. So it could be a question of working with us, whether it's one-to-one as part of our programme for like a longer journey where they kind of integrate some of these insights that they've had. It could be that they've met someone on the retreat or event and they partner with them to help with that. You know, there's other coaches, there's other, you know, sort of people who can help them get to the next stage, or even just buddy up. We've seen people like, okay, we need to be accountable to, I need someone to be accountable to, you want to do that thing, I want to do that thing. Let's partner up together and have a weekly check-in with each other to sort of make sure we move towards our goals. But then some people who they don't need anything, they they're literally. I I think sometimes the hardest thing is like the clarity. Like, once you've got the clarity or that sense of, like you said, that sort of embodied feeling of like what's right, what needs to happen next, or what my need is, which we talk about a lot. Like, what is it you need? Um, I found myself, like the first altitude, we've still had our agency, and we weren't sure whether to keep going with the agency or have keep the happysty sort of as a side project, and this kind of stick or twist sort of feeling, which again a lot of people who come to our events have this sense of I'm at a crossroads, I'm in transition, do I go here, do I go here, do I stay still? Like, ugh, it's just overwhelming. And I remember coming back from that week after sharing this with the group and getting some amazing sort of feedback and insight was oh, we now know what need now know what we need to do. We need to close the agency, which unfortunately means letting some people redundant, which was very which was the thing stopping me before was actually the sense of like responsibility to the team and to the space we'd created and all of that, and our clients. But once it was clear, like, oh, this is our future, and this is in some ways our past, then we've got a clear story to tell, and that became so much easier. So, yeah, within two months the agency was closed, some of our team had joined our biggest client, that problem was solved, you know. So it it kind of all fell into place a lot more smoothly than I had feared, which again a lot of people fear that change because it's overwhelming, and we probably always think of the worst case scenario rather than the best. But yeah, that clarity unlocked a lot of things, and we see this again and again for people. People might share something at altitude, and it's a deep dive into their challenge, and then by the end of it, they're like, Okay, you've helped me see it clearly now, which I couldn't see myself. You know, the group has reflected back, and we use a format called wise crowds to do that. So it's very much how do we get the wisdom of the crowd to help people see themselves better and see their path more clearly, and that yeah, again, I think people leave with those voices and they've got recording to listen to and reflect on. So, yeah, all those things help, I think, just to reinforce the um the things that came up so they don't retreat back to the fear sort of state.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Yeah, what's shifting in your business right now that you hadn't expected?

SPEAKER_00 39:16

I think it's a bit a bit driven like stage of life. Like again, myself and Carlos both have teenagers, so I wouldn't say anything's massively shifting. I mean, we've rebranded our vision programme to Happy MBA, so that's something we've been working on for a long time. And that for us is like partly a branding thing, but also partly this is the next phase for us. We want this to be our flagship program that we you know work on year-round and actually build all of our core work around. And so we're building a faculty around it, we're building this idea of different outposts and campuses that people can check in with, like where we do altitude and and places like that. So I suppose that's one thing, but also just yeah, moving into a different season of life. Like my eldest will go to uni probably in September. So I think that's also influencing it in terms of yeah, what do I want for myself and my wife and yeah, our future. So I think it's always this balance of yeah, what's good for the business, but also what's what's good for us individually and how do we keep that fire alive, really. So yeah, I I suspect you know, we'll keep trying new things, which we have been lately, to keep things interesting and also trying to sort of keep the main thing the main thing as well. So for some account, we've been doing that 12 years, not throwing out the things at work, but also keeping it fresh enough that it feels interesting for us and others that come and return back.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

I was very excited that you started to do midlife retreats. I thought that was a need that people have right now to connect. As you said, there's a moment of shifting and really looking at where they are and what's next and keeping that enough of the excitement going while keeping everything else going. With that in mind, I thought we might shift to something else, which is to look at um five words that might or might not hold something for you. And hopefully they do hold something for you. Let's see. Um, so what I'd love to do is to just sort of say the words and see what comes up for you. Would that be okay?

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

All right. This is an obvious one, is success.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

I'd say A, it it triggers me because it's you know it's a bit like happiness, isn't it? It's a word that we all think we're talking about the same thing, or even money, but it's it's gonna mean dividend. Okay, sorry. Um so success for me is highly individual, and it's very much dependent on for me, not just money, but time, relationships, and impact as well. And so, yeah, I I like to measure it in different ways than most people. And that's what we tried to instill in others is what success is for you won't be the success for someone else.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

How do you know when you've run a successful event? Like, so you've just come up something like last night and you've just finished a five-month, how do you know when it's been successful?

SPEAKER_00 41:44

It it's a feeling. I mean, like, for example, everyone turned up to the last call, so that's one thing. It's just like a sort of validation there that people want to show up and be together. For me, it's a sense of connection as a group. You know, this sense of there's emotion, there's um vulnerability, there's also just a buzz, you know, a buzz in the room, whether it's on Zoom or or at summer camp. Like this last year's summer camp, all the team felt was the one that went the best, not because of the weather, because the weather was pretty bad, the worst we've ever had, but but the sense of you know, it built resilience, it and and also just this sense of uh things came together and the team was strong and we all came through it. So, yeah, I think it's it's just a sense really. It's hard to put into words. Obviously, financially it needs to work for it to be sustainable, so that's one factor, but it's definitely not the only factor. And so yeah, I think I I you know when it's worked, and and it's all of the things that you might sense through conversation, through the general buzz, and also just yeah, how much people reflect back to you really in terms of nice things.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

The next word is happiness, and it's interesting that could be a triggering word because it's a triggering word for me too. But it's interesting given how you brand what you do. So, what is happiness now?

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Happiness for me is about alignment, I would say. There's a great quote that Gandhi said, I believe, which is happiness is when we what we say, what we think, and what we do are in harmony. So this sense of alignment of values, of needs, of who we are and what we do. Linked to that a sense of contentment as well. So not this feeling of like happiness is all you know happy clappy, and you know, in some ways our name is a strength and a weakness, because for some people they get put off by it because they think we're just a bunch of business hippies, which may not be that far from the truth, hanging out in the field. Um but yeah, it's not about I say a temporary emotion, it's about a state, I would say, happiness, and so it's a sense that I accept who I am. There's definitely an element of sectance. I'm content with how I'm living my life, and it if I died tomorrow I wouldn't I wouldn't have any regrets.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

It's a good place to get too. Um impact.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Impact for me, I'm more driven by impact with a small eye than the big eye. So when I think of impact, a lot of people use it in terms of Impact reports, changing the world, and I get that. You know, if you're an organization or you're trying to move the needle with things, and I can see well that's important. But I know for me and those in our community, this sense of I can make impact just by being me, I can make impact by having this conversation with you, or by asking the right question, or saying the right thing that sticks with someone years later. So yeah, I'm comfortable with that. And again, I learned that from my dad. He was amazing at that. You know, when he died, loads of people, and he wasn't anything like me in terms of the work we do. I mean, he ran pubs and he was a teacher and he played in Irish pubs for 20 years. He was a strong disciplinarian in some ways, but he was amazing at sitting there with a cup of tea and a ham sandwich and just letting them talk. And he'd just turn up on people's doorstep when he was retired and do that. But he was an amazing listener, and people were devastated when he died, people had never met. And so that really stuck with me too. This idea of he made amazing impact, but never talked about it, and certainly didn't think of it as impact. And that again was just someone being there for someone being being heard. So yeah, I found that really inspiring to think of impact in that way because that changed my thinking before. I think before that I was much more gotta go and change the world, and you know, we've got to grow happy startup to every country, and there's a lot of ego, I think, in terms of we've got something here that we want to scale and grow, which again I think wasn't healthy. Um rather than like now I'm just happy with yeah, if there's any ripple effects from these smaller interactions with smaller groups, and amazing, but it's not doesn't need to grow for it to be worthwhile worthwhile.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

When did that change for you? When did it go from ego to something else?

SPEAKER_00 45:28

I would say that year, well, my dad died 2017, and that year where we were really sort of burnt out was I'd say 2017, 2018. So they kind of came around the same time. So partly I again created a lot of space for myself around that time just to kind of be there for my mum, grieve, my mum's quite close and quite local, but also I think just yeah, kids growing up a bit as well, wanting to spend more time with them. So this sense of if I'm out there doing the work with everyone else but everyone at home, or even me, then what's it for, you know? So yeah, having that sense of yeah, community starts at home really rather than rather than out there, and and also if you want to keep doing this work, there's no point which we try and instill in other people as well as this idea of it's you're no use to anyone if you're burnt out. Like, you know, there's a lot of I mean, there's a lady on our programme who's uh boarding school therapist, and she admitted on the call we did a podcast last week with some of the group, this idea of she's a giver, you know, she's a people pleaser. She used to go to boarding school herself, she can relate to all these people. So there's never enough hours in the day to look after all the people that she could support. And also, if she gives it up to do something else, then she's no use to any of them. So this element of boundaries and knowing what's good for you and how can you find yourself in something and and be able to say no ultimately and and know what enough looks like. That's yeah, that's I guess adulting. It's learning about yourself and knowing when to yeah, what your boundaries are ultimately, whether it's come through burnout or just a realisation that something needs to change.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Um dreaming.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Ooh. I have a quite quite a lot of interesting dreams. I don't really dream that much, but the last few nights I've had a lot of dreams. I can barely remember them when I wake up. But yeah, in terms of dreaming, I I like to think of dreaming as imagining realities, really, and I think a lot of people struggle with the word because they think, oh, you're just a bunch of dreamers. You know, the the world's really hard. So, you know, spaces like we create, giving people the possibility to dream about something they might want to create or a world they might want to live in or a future they might want to create create carve out for themselves. I think it can be challenging for those that yeah, think the world's a hard place and need to toughen people up. But yeah, I believe we've all got a dream within us, and it could be a small dream or a big dream, but yeah, why not why not think about it and give it some space to to grow? So yeah, that's one thing we try and do in our events is give people space to dream.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

I feel like I want you to burst into song then, but I'm not sure why. Um that would be an appropriate response to it.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Dream on dreamer.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Like maybe one of George's George's songs.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

George's a better singer than me.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Yeah. Okay, last one is energy.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

Oh, energy. Well, actually, listen back to George's. Yeah, exactly. George's energy. Yeah, energy's everything for me. Again, linked to looking after myself, linked to looking after the people we work with, linked to the events we create. I think there's a there needs to be energy there for us to to have possibility, to have hope. And so, yeah, I I I personally think this whole thing about we are the sum of the five people we spend the most time with, I definitely think there's some truth in that. And I I've seen how if you're stuck in a job you hate or you you're running a business that you don't enjoy anymore, or something's not right, I think it can be who you sit who you surround yourself with. And again, if you hang out with people like you, like George, like people in our community, there's this kind of effervescence that comes up and it it's it's it's contagious, and so I think that's part of it too, is yeah, you might not need to change anything, you might not need to have that idea or dream pop up, but just like I just want to hang out with more people like this, and if I do that, something's gonna shift because I just pick up on that energy and that sense of yeah, oh that creative spark, I guess, that comes when you're around people like that.

SPEAKER_02 49:19

And I think And that can be enough in and of itself, like that's the value, and that's the thing that that we can return to and and value. Okay, so let's come back to the thought that you have brought today, and this idea that you're the glue that holds things together.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Yeah. I and I how do you think about it? How do you hold on to that? But I think there's also a message for anyone, really. I remember George talking on your podcast about, you know, she wrote this book about turn your lights on and how anyone has the capability to turn someone else's lights on. And I think it's a similar thing there in terms of anyone can be the clue. You know, we can all sort of sort of a make people feel comfortable enough to open up and to connect, but also to to kind of c get on with each other. I think that's one thing that and I think this maybe stemmed from the pub, not to bring it up again, but I remember my dad flying off the handle, doing his Basil 40 as they would call it, and in the pub where he would, you know, he he loved people but also found them hard. Was me being the diplomat, you know, probably age 17 behind the bar, like you know, trying to find the middle ground between you know my dad flying off the handle and someone who's probably quite drunk and being unreasonable, or two people sort of not getting on, and this ability to I suppose just try and see both sides and find a middle ground for both. Not to say this kind of thing happens in our community a lot, but I think yeah, helping to find that universal language and culture that we all they can see each other and feel empathy for one another. So, yeah, I believe well the world's a can be seen as quite a disconnected place at the moment, so the more we can do that, see and hear each other more is important. So, yeah, there's a great book actually I might mention. I as you said I often do this. I don't know if I've got it here. Um it's called How to Know a Person and I found it really inspiring by David Brooks. And it's all about listening, really. How can we truly know a person and we can't know a person unless we understand them better? And again, this clue for me is all about that, is is understanding one another.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

Yes, and doing it so much through listening.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Yeah, exactly. Not trying to sort of butt in and say the next thing, which is yeah, something again, but these these are the things we're not taught at school, right? I think we could do a GCSE on listening. How important, how amazing would that be? It's all about it.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

It would have some really fascinating ripples, I think, at school. Yeah, that would be, particularly with our teenagers. I would love to. Maybe we should just do that as a dinner conversation and see where we get to.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

Um, Lawrence, thank you so much for being here and for the thought that you have brought. It's such an impactful one and connecting one. So thank you so much for sharing. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

It's good to see you. So I'll leave you with a question that I always ask my listeners here, which is is this a thought that you will keep, forget, or share? I was the glue that kept the house together. And that can become whatever you need it to be for you. I am the glue that keeps this home together. I am the glue that keeps these friendships going. And then what I love too about this is that idea can shift depending on your context and what that really means to hold and bring and gather people together, and what that means in terms of your role and what you're bringing, your voice and your needs. If you'd like to go deeper on some of the themes of this episode, whether it's thinking about what connection means to you, how you're showing up in midlife, what friendships could be, the impacts of nature on your well-being, then do come over to my subset community, More Good Days, where we like to explore all that life can be for us. And if you need some more guidance, more one-on-one support as you navigate ideas of purpose and connection, community and creativity, then do visit If Lost Start Here, a company that I co-founded that's all about how to get to a better place in life, in work, in relationships, whatever that needs to be for you. If this conversation did resonate, then there are a number of people that I did meet through Summer Camp that I've really enjoyed talking to on this podcast. And I would suggest that you look at episodes from Liana Fricker, Matthew Buckingham, Georgina Jones, and Alana Pearce. Summer Camp for me was really the opening to so many incredible conversations and connections, but also really did inform this podcast, really did help me to step into my voice and to step into this space and to really make this happen. So if you are curious about what Summer Camp is or any of the programs that Lawrence talked about, then do go to the show notes, and I've included links to all of those different programs. If you enjoyed these episodes, then please do rate, review, subscribe, or support the show. There's details for all of those things again in the show notes. Thank you as always for listening, and I will be with you next time with another thought that you might want to keep, or maybe even let go of. Until next time.