When Trying is Enough with Imogen Partridge

What if trying — in your work, your parenting, your creativity — was already enough?

There are time when it can feel like you’re doing everything you can, and still wondering if it’s enough. The days where you’re holding work, parenting, and life all at once, trying to build something, care for others, and look after your own mental health in the middle of it all.

In this episode, I talk to Imogen Partridge about what it means to try, and how we begin to recognise that effort as enough. We explore the emotional weight of trying — how it can go unseen in busy lives, especially in motherhood, business, and everyday wellbeing — and how powerful it can be to pause and give ourselves credit for it.

We talk about creativity as a practical wellbeing tool rather than something reserved for artists — a way to regulate emotions, ease anxiety, and reconnect with yourself. Imogen shares what she’s seen in her creative workshops, where people often arrive believing they’re “not creative,” and what shifts when they allow themselves to begin anyway. We also explore how creativity can sit alongside other mental health practices — from walking and journaling to community and conversation — as part of a more personal, flexible approach to wellbeing.

This conversation is for anyone who is looking for more ways to support your mental health, reconnect with creativity, or navigate the overlap between work, parenting, and wellbeing.

Imogen Partridge is a watercolour illustrator and creative workshop host based in the UK. Before illustration, she spent over a decade as an interior designer, a background that shaped her belief that creativity is a tool for storytelling, connection, and meaning. She now works with both individuals and businesses, running workshops for corporate teams and events, and creating live illustration and bespoke commissions. She's also a mum of two, keen (but chaotic) allotmenteer and currently training for the London Marathon in aid of Mind.

Website | Instagram | Linkedin | Substack | Photo of Imogen was taken by

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hi and welcome to A Thought I Kept, a weekly podcast about the one I do that stayed. Listen every Monday morning for a new thought to hold on to this week. I'm Claire Fitzsimmons, a well-being writer, coach, and co-founder of If Lost Art Here. And I created the show because I realized that there is so much advice out there about how to live well and just be a person in the world. And yet, most of us are still trying to work out what to keep hold of. What matters? Which ideas we want to carry with us into our very real, everyday lives. So each week I sit down with someone and explore a single idea. The ones that did stay with them, the ones that shaped their lives, and might yours. Today I am joined by Imogen Partridge. Imogen is a watercolour illustrator and creative workshop host whose work is all about noticing. The small details, the feeling of a place, the stories that are held in everyday scenes. Before this, she spent over a decade as an interior designer, creating spaces that told stories in a very different way. And now, through her illustrations and her workshops, she helps people reconnect with creativity. And that's not as something that is polished or perfect, but as something that is fundamentally human, calming, and even available to everyone. I wanted to speak to Imogen because there's something about her work that feels gently radical. This idea that creativity isn't just for a certain kind of person or a certain kind of ability or a certain kind of life, but that it is something that we can return to each day in the middle of everything else. And that we don't need to hide it away or tuck it into the corners of our lives. We can live out our creativity right alongside everything else. There is something too here about the Power of Podcast that I also love. So I hope that you enjoy this week's episode. I wonder whether you'll discover a thought that you would want to keep this week, and if you might find something that you want to carry into your own life. Here's my conversation with Imogen. Hi, Imogen Partridge. Welcome to A Thought I Get.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Hi, Claire, thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

I'm so excited to be talking to you. And I'm just really curious about how you're arriving here today.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Um I'm arriving here today in quite good spirits, I think. I was quite tired yesterday, and I think sometimes actually having a conversation with somebody else is a really good way to lift your spirit, and I think this is that.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Yes, and it is. Like sometimes I think of conversations as taking something away. Like I'm feeling tired. I'm like, oh, do I have the energy to have a conversation? And every time I have a conversation, I find myself being energized by it. Like the opposite almost happens.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

I mean, I it definitely depends on the person in the conversation, but I think in this case, yes, I I totally agree. And I really I like that you can kind of notice who can give you that as well. And you know, you can kind of seek it out almost sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Yes, and you know the people to go to, you're absolutely right. There are other people that maybe don't have the desired effect on our moods, and being very mindful about who those people might be. Hopefully, I'm not that person to you today, and that you do stay uplifted, but let's see. So every week on the podcast, I ask my guests the same question, and that is out of all the ideas that are out there, all the things, what's the one thought that you have kept?

SPEAKER_01 3:49

So the thought that I have kept, I changed this really last minute, is I need to give myself more credit for how hard I am trying. Okay, where did that come from? So that is a reminder that goes off on my phone every single day and has done for the last five years. I don't remember when I set it or where it came from, but it was just I started setting the odd reminder on my phone to kind of try and do little mindset shifts here and there. And that is one that I've kept, and I set it for 11 pm because when I'm particularly when I was working two jobs, but I still now do work quite late sometimes. And that is my little reminder to myself to just remember that I'm trying really hard, and I mean it could go off any time of day and it would be appropriate. It was always a little reminder for if I was late, maybe to think about okay, you've tried hard enough today, that's enough, you can stop, or actually to just give you that little boost that you need. But it really sits in a really interesting place for me, I think, because it's developed so much with me over the years and it applies to so many areas of my life, but it also applies to what I talk to other people about, and particularly in workshops and things like that. And I think being seen to be trying, even being seen by yourself, you're witnessing your own efforts, is really vulnerable. And I think we sometimes underestimate that. And I think it's easy to stay within your comfort zone a lot of the time. And I think giving myself credit, but also recognising that in other people is really important. And I think we rush around a lot, don't we? And I think it's just one of those things that maybe we don't acknowledge enough. And I think that's why I came back to it as my thought, I was going to pick something a bit more sort of creativity-driven, but actually I've I felt like this fed into everything, and I quite like that.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

So, what was happening? So you said like it was five years ago when you added this as a reminder on your phone. What was happening five years ago that you felt that you needed to hear this again and again and again?

SPEAKER_01 5:52

So I think it was probably one of those things that I thought, well, I'll add it for you know a month and then I'll change it. And then I just have never changed it. But at the time, I think my son would have been one, and I think we possibly would have been in COVID. And I was on furlough from my day job, I was working on my business, I was trying to do things with my business, it was in like really early stages. That was the point when I went from doing a little bit of painting on the side. I when I was put on furlough, I was sort of thought, well, okay, I've been gifted this time, this is maybe a good time for me to use it to learn more about business and actually if I can make this work. And I had always been really aware that because I love what I do and painting it brings me so much peace and calm, I was really worried about making it my full job, my whole career, because I wouldn't enjoy it anymore. And I had a bit of hesitation with that. But actually, the more I learnt a business side, I really loved it, I found it really interesting, and I think the variety of everything that comes with running a business is really well suited to me. And I really understand that a lot of artists, particularly or creative people, who make it their job actually kind of struggle with that element. And I'm grateful that I have-I mean, there are various bits that I have struggled with, and I don't mean it's easy, but I enjoy it. And so I think that but when you're really early on in that journey, it feels you sort of almost have to convince yourself that it's possible and remind yourself that you are all of these things that you're doing, there's a reason for it. And when you've got a tiny child and you've never, you know, done that before and you're learning to do all of these things, and trying to make it all work, and I felt like I was trying to learn about who I was, who I was as a mum, who I was as a person, who I was as, you know, a business owner, which I probably didn't call myself at the time. And I think when you're not necessarily sure of any of those things and you're feeling unsure, but you're still doing it, it's that element of trying that I feel like you need the credit for.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yes, and that that would be enough, like rather than these external metrics that say success looks like this. Absolutely. You know, you are aiming for this, that act, the process of it is enough.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah, and because a lot of the time you're not necessarily at that point, are you? And and even if you've defined your own measure of success, it might be that you haven't got there yet. And success in itself is a question, isn't it? It's kind of what your own definition of that. And I think I've got much better at learning that actually the lifestyle that I have, like that feels like success because of where it is, but I can also aspire to do more or change things, and like that's all part of it. But I feel like if you have an aspiration for success at a certain point or a certain level, you're always kind of you will either always move that goalpost or you'll get there and you'll be like, okay, well, is this it? I I like I d I think it needs to sit more within the present and how you're feeling right now. But I do feel like at the time when I set this up, I definitely was not feeling in that place at all. And just didn't really know what I was doing. And I felt like I was really at the beginning and excited to learn, but also it just all felt like I didn't know what was going to happen. And I think when you're really tired and you're not getting enough sleep and all of those sorts of things, and going back to work and trying to fit it in as well, and especially after I had my daughter as well, trying to work and look after my children and run my own business on the side, it was just so much. And my own business was always the thing that was the easiest thing to let go. But I really didn't want to let it go because I couldn't, I can't not do my children, and I needed to do my job at the time. And eventually, obviously, I worked up to a point where I could leave, and that worked, that was fine, but I needed to work up to that point. I couldn't just leave because of our situation. So it felt really hard, but it also felt it was temporary, and I think understanding that was really helpful. But the the reminder to acknowledge that you're trying really hard definitely was helpful.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

It sounds like you're really intentional about your mindset in that moment, and you have been very intentional since then. And I'm wondering what, like, where that comes from. Have you always been this person who would think about, you know, a phrase, an idea, and have it readily available to you? Or was that something new to you? Did you start to step into mindset work because of the shift in your career? Or have you always been thinking about who you are and how to be a person and how to have a better relationship with yourself and all those different things?

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Uh, no, I haven't absolutely haven't been that all the time. I think I spent a lot of my life not really knowing what was going on, just sort of not even paying attention to anything, just kind of going along and I felt like I really didn't know who I was. And I feel like that's something that over the last, I don't know, since becoming a mum and since starting my business, has really had an impact on me. And I have done a lot of mindset work because I noticed how useful I say mindset work, it's literally listening to podcasts and paying attention to things. It's not like I haven't done anything to spend time. It is. And like when I'm painting a lot, I listen to a lot, and I used to listen to it all my way to work, things like that all the time. But I think kind of by osmosis, you have this repetition of these different messages from different people, and it does go in and it really makes a difference. And I sort of noticed where I could, you know, maybe like setting reminder on my phone is a good example of a really small action that I could take, but it would be me trying to just rewire something or trying to kind of get something into my brain that wasn't naturally there, or you know, stop in this case to remind me to pause and to just reflect on something or something like that. And I think I have become maybe I used to be more reflective and I just didn't realise, but or maybe it's it's a completely new thing. But I think I am very self-reflective and I think I have learned that about myself, especially since leaving my job a couple of years ago. I think it's something that I've learnt to notice and then kind of practiced and seeing the benefit of mindset work. Whenever anyone asks me for business advice or anything like that, it's always mindset work that I think is the most important thing that you can do. And I think it has had a huge impact of me as a person, because I think I'm teaching myself all these things because they're important for my business, but actually so many of them are shaping me as a human and as a parent. Like it's all so intertwined, it's really interesting. But it's things like you know, confidence and positive self-talk, just all of these things, they just affect you in all areas. And I think that's been really wonderful for me. And I'm obviously still on this journey. Um it's just an ever, ever changing thing, isn't it? But I think it's been really I don't I don't know what the word is, but it's maybe transformative sounds a bit impressive, but it it does feel a bit like that. It feels like it's had a real impact on me.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yeah, I think I saw that you said that you were becoming or you had become a better person because of your business. Yes, definitely. And I think that's a really interesting idea because sometimes being in business asks things of us that maybe are not in alignment with our values, and often we can find ourselves being a different person. We can find ourselves performing certain ways or showing up in ways because of having to survive or having to hustle or having to do all the things that traditional business asks of us. And it's interesting that you found that you were becoming a better person because of it. How do you stay the course on that when it is in its very early days and you're figuring it out, and often that's the moment of potential compromise and going down other shinier new paths.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yeah, and I think the early days are all always where things are more difficult because you're less sure of yourself, you don't have maybe the experience, the confidence, things like that. And I think actually being led down the shiny path or doing something that doesn't feel aligned, that's how you learn. And I think I've done plenty of all of those sorts of things, and I have got to a place where my word of the year, this year, is a line, and purely because I want to be more intentional with this, I do notice myself doing projects, and I feel like sometimes, you know, I'll just want to do everything immediately. I'll be so excited, it'll feel so right. And other times I don't get that, and I feel a little bit of friction, and sometimes I can't put my finger on that, and I've realized that I don't need to, but I can notice that and I can decide not to do things like that again. And I don't have to have a reason, it doesn't have to be anything grand, it doesn't have to be forever. But if I'm not feeling that right now, then that can tell me something. And I think in the early days, when I thought those kind of things, I had a lot less confidence to say no to work, for example. I had a lot less confidence in my pricing. I all of these areas are still things that I'm struggling with, but I I was in a much different place to where I am now. And I think it's very difficult in the early days to keep doing all of those things. But I think if you've got the drive and determination and purpose to kind of keep you going on the whole, and the trust that over time you can build and you can change and you can navigate. And again, podcasts, listening to people's stories on podcasts is one of the things that had a huge impact on me. Because understanding that everybody, like listening to people at all different stages, I mean, not just, you know, people who are at the end of their career and talking about their success, people at all different stages. It's showing you that it is possible to do in all sorts of different ways. And I think that was a really important permission piece for me to sort of validate my own experience, that I didn't necessarily need to know where I was going, but I just had to kind of be doing the next step and be moving forward. And I found that really helpful that I didn't need to have it all sussed, that I didn't have to feel, you know, that confidence. I could I could trust that things would come. And that has worked, and I continue to do that. And I, yeah, I feel like podcasts are like, they've just been huge for me, which is yeah, why I love them so much.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

It's extraordinary, isn't it? Because I think there is, I agree with you about podcasts. I think there is something about that piece of just seeing people, hearing their stories, realizing that there is a person behind a brand, authors are normal people, academics are similarly exploring and getting it wrong. Like, I think there is something about the fallibility and also like the relatability of the people that whose stories you were hearing. I think if podcasts are doing it well, that's what you're hearing. And there is something about the osmosis, like part of why this podcast exists is I was curious about what stays with us. Like, out of all the podcasts we listen to, out of all the nonfiction books we consume, out of all the conversations we have, what does stay with us? And there is something that you said about osmosis. Like sometimes we're not acutely aware of the one idea, but there is like a layering of something that then in turn shifts a mindset. And that does start to impact our confidence and then does start to reinforce our purpose. And it's almost like more subtly happening in the background than I think we realise sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

I definitely agree with that, and I think as well, sometimes if we try and be too intentional with it, it almost feels not possible. Because if I said, right, I'm off to work on my mindset and I really worked hard, I don't know what I would even do. I if you asked me what to do to work on your mindset, I don't know. I'd probably give you some podcasts to listen to. But if you actually were like, right, I'm actively gonna go and do this and I'm gonna do it for a few weeks and I want results, I don't think that would really work. I mean, definitely not for me. I think the process over time is so important and that repetition of message, but just allowing things to be absorbed, but not putting that pressure on yourself to achieve a thing or do a thing, but just allowing it to filter in and you can notice how it affects you in different areas of life, how it affects you in different, you know, situations with work. And I think sometimes time is difficult because often we want things quite quickly, or you know, we want things to change or we want to grow quickly, or whatever that is, but actually I think sitting with things and allowing it to kind of percolate and and sink in is really important. It's really important part of the process.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

There's something about the daily reinforcement of that message that I find really interesting. How has it not lost its meaning after that amount of time? Like pings on your phone, it's 11 o'clock at night. Do you see it like you would like a news notification? You say, Oh, okay, this is not for me now. How is it still imprinting itself? How is it still holding its meaning after so long?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Well, sometimes I ignore it. So sometimes I'm asleep, hopefully. And because I think I've got a couple of other ones that pop up and I change them every now and again. But I I've got to a point where I just sort of trust that it will reach me when I need it. And I quite like that. I don't I think early on I would have sort of noticed it every time, and I would have noticed it every day, and now I don't. It's still there and it's still going off, but I don't necessarily read it every single day, and definitely not at 11 pm every single day, thankfully. But I think that repetition of the message over time and the sort of trust that I'm gonna see it when I need it is really helpful. And sometimes it's in the morning. I might wake up in the morning and it might be brought somewhere. I don't really have many notifications on my phone, so they're mainly reminders. So yeah, it's nice and clear for me to see. And and sometimes that's actually what I need, like when I wake up and there's children shouting at me to get them breakfast, or you know, and I've got to go and do something. Sometimes that's when I need it, and I think that's quite nice.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

You said something about like it was really important for you to be aware of it, but also you do these creative workshops with people who are maybe coming back to mark making art process for the first time in a while, and that there is something about them also needing to hear something about try. And what is that for you when you start to see somebody like be very much out of their comfort zone and really vulnerable in that space? And what can help them move through that?

SPEAKER_01 20:18

I think we really underestimate how difficult that is to try something that you're not comfortable with, particularly, and particularly in a space where there's other people around and perhaps that you don't know, or maybe that you do, and that's worse. And I noticed it with my children. They I mean they're six and four at the moment, so they're quite small, so they haven't been filtered by society yet. But they they have sort of no inhibitions with trying, particularly with art. Just draw it, they just love it and they just get on with it, and they just make their marks, and if they do it wrong, then they get a new piece of paper and they do it, do it again, and they're so confident with what they're doing and happy with themselves. And I think as adults, we lose so quickly, and we become almost really afraid. I mean, I've I've experienced it recently. I've been to workshops where I don't know what I'm doing, and I've, you know, been following somebody else's process, or I did a a pottery workshop not that long ago, and I was like, I've no idea what I'm doing, this feels really alien, and you're sort of almost tentative to try because you don't want to get it wrong. And I really understand that experience. And that is what people come to my workshops with a lot of the time. And it's particularly if they have had any kind of damaging messaging around not being creative when they were younger. Lots and lots of people have it from school or from something like a family member has said when they're young. And they carry this thing of I'm not creative, which is obviously not just art, and people associate it so much with art, but if they've been told that they can't draw when they're five or something, they will go through their life believing they're not creative, which is just so sad because. Creativity obviously comes from so many different areas, and they definitely are creative, they just maybe don't notice where it is. And it might be that they're thinking they're not artistic, which is also fine, but that is also something that I would always challenge. But I think that freedom that you can feel when you experience it helps you to understand why it's important and why it is accessible to people. Because it doesn't matter what you're drawing, it could be scribbles, it could just be, you know, shapes or marks, it doesn't have to be you're creating an artwork that you're gonna frame and keep on your wall or give to someone. But the feeling that you have when you've got pen to paper and or, you know, paint, whatever your medium is, is really, really incredible. And I think that is the feeling that I kind of want people to experience. And I think you have to get past that barrier of trying and being seen to try, that vulnerability of making the first marks and having a blank piece of paper in front of you and putting something on it and then doing it again. And I think if you can start to notice where you are creative in your life, particularly if you're someone who says you're not creative, if you can start to notice the areas where you are creative, if you're a gardener, if you cook, if you come up with creative ideas, if you like math, science, like all of these things are creative. There are so many ways to be creative. But if you start to notice those different areas, the more you notice where you are creative, the kind of easier it feels to tap into a different area of creativity. So if there's something that you wanted to try, for example, it almost thinks, well, actually, I could do those things, and they're creative, so maybe I could give this a try, rather than that blanket, I'm not creative, which is where I think it's really damaging. And I think helping guide people in workshops through all of this kind of stuff, like the amount of stuff that comes out that is nothing to do with art is just incredible. Like the majority of it is that, rather than me actually teaching a technique. It's it's this confidence and the kind of that creative confidence that comes with it. Guiding people through that is where I see real impact and where I understand from my own experiences how it can translate into other areas of your life as well. Because actually, if you're thinking, well, I've actually I could try that, and I did it, and it was alright, and it felt quite nice, then you can kind of see other areas of your life where you're thinking, you've got this potentially this mental block of I can't do it, and you're thinking, Well, actually, maybe I can, and if I can surprise myself here, maybe I can do it over there. And I think it's it's really undervalued how much there is this cross-pollination of these kind of messages.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

I do think there is a almost like a cruelty in the messages that says, This person over here, and I already see I have a slightly older children, and I see how certain children are becoming holders of creativity. You're the creative kids, you're kind of the smart kids, they're not necessarily the same things. And so the creativity is owned by someone in the classroom, but it's not owned by everybody in the classroom, which just seems so heartbreaking. And I was wondering about you know, the feelings that people bring to your workshops, like they come in with fear, there's some shame, maybe, and that they are you said that in the moment they are feeling something else. What else do you think have you seen that they're feeling in the moment that they're tapping into that maybe they've had to leave behind?

SPEAKER_01 25:40

I think it can be a whole host of different feelings, and I think it's surprising to people sometimes how much comes up for them when they sit down to try and do these things. I mean, don't get me wrong, some people are happy to be there and just kind of get on with it, and that's that's absolutely fine. But the people who kind of struggle, I think it's it's fee it's a lot of feelings of it not their their result isn't going to be good enough. That they're looking at other people and thinking I couldn't do that, that they have these narratives of I'm not creative or I wasn't good at art, I'm not good at art, I can't draw. And I'm just sort of thinking if you put that pencil on that paper and move it around, that's literally drawing. And it's it's incredible how we have this belief that to draw it has to look like the thing. Like that's a photo. The point of creating something is it's your creative expression, and the beauty of it is that it will look different to somebody else's. But there is a bit of a gap, I think, between what people would like to be able to achieve, like their expectation of where they want to be and where they think they are going to be when they start, and possibly where they are when they start, because they haven't experienced that. If you do a hundred drawings, you'll get familiar with how you draw and you'll get more familiar with what you're looking at and translating that onto paper, and you'll be happy to experiment with colour and paint the leaves purple because you like changing the colours around. But if you're just doing that one first drawing that you haven't done for a really long time, there is so much pressure on that moment. And I think that can often be the biggest barrier. And actually, if you can quickly, you know, get something down and then move on to the next page and just not look at it, sometimes that is a really helpful way to kind of just work through it. But I think I think as well, there is a lot of when people come, I'm put thinking now particularly about the workshops that I've done with a mental health charity, which are they're over six months, so they come every week for six months. And I think sometimes people come and they have an expectation of what they think they're going to learn, and they're thinking, I'm going to learn about paint techniques, or I'm going to learn how to draw, and you're going to show me what to do, and I'm going to do it. And for me, when I teach workshops, and I always try and communicate this because people do have step-by-step workshops, and that's just not my thing. I want to help you find your own way with creating art. Because if I show you how I do it and you go home and you think, well, I've got to do it like Imogen, I don't want you to do it like me. I want you to do it like you. And I want you to have the permission and the confidence to explore what that is for you. And I think sometimes people are a little bit like, oh, but can you show me how to draw this? And obviously I can. I can show you how I could do it, but there isn't a right in a wrong way. And I think there is so much, probably in life, that we think there is a right in a wrong way, and there isn't. But it's just all of these stories that we've told ourselves, and it's just incredible how much of this, as we've mentioned mindset already, it is mindset, isn't it? It's not that you can't draw, because you can pick up if you have hands and you can pick up a pencil and you can make a mark on a paper, you could you are drawing. So it's it's all of the other stuff that comes with it. And I think that's often where maybe people underestimate or they come to a workshop for one reason and then they kind of get other stuff out of it that maybe hadn't expected.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yes, and sometimes the things they're getting out of it is more around well-being. It seems in your work that you really advocate that creativity is is another potential practice for maintaining or looking after or developing our well-being. And that's something that I've thought about a lot. Like when we want to feel better, we might turn to more conventional, traditional things, like we might turn to going for a run, even, or something in our bodies. We might think about gratitude journeying. And yet, creativity is so powerful. There's some really fascinating research about its impacts, but it might not be the go-to thing. And that might be because of the messages we've had around it. Like there's so much to get through before we can even get to the well-being benefits. But you are also somebody that believes that creativity can be a pillar of someone's well-being and their everyday well-being. How have you come to arrive at that? And what do you see when someone is able to embrace creativity that way?

SPEAKER_01 30:12

I think this is really fundamental to the work that I want to do. I think this is so important to people to understand that it is an accessible tool for anybody. And it's not like you have to do art as your well-being and that's your thing. It's the point is you have all of these different tools in your toolkit. Maybe you do running, maybe you do breath work, maybe you do strength training, maybe you eat well, maybe you go for a walk, maybe art is one of those things. But I think creativity generally can feed into your toolkit of options. And I think if we are in a world where we're struggling with mental health, which we it's obviously this huge problem in society at the moment, and we have all of these tools and resources available, people are so different. People's brains work differently. Like my brain works differently today than it will yesterday and next week, and it it it's unpredictable. And if you can have these different things to help, you have so much more chance of sustaining yourself within this world. And also, I think the understanding of doing things in community as well. So I think creating art within community is one of the most powerful things that I've experienced, particularly through my work with this mental health charity. A story that comes to mind is a wonderful man who came to one of these workshops. He kind of came a few months in and he was kind of really sh pushed into going and didn't really want to go, but to appease the people, he was like, fine, I'll go to one session. And he came to one session and he was just like, This is this has been the best thing ever. I'm so glad that I've come. And he came to all of the rest of the sessions, he had severe PTSD, which he's had since you know the early 90s, he was in the forces, and it impact it helped his symptoms. It it actually helped him from that first session, and to be able to see him now continuing to paint, like the sessions are finished and the group still meets and they keep painting once a week if they can, and to see how they've taken that as an extra tool. It's not it's not it hasn't solved his life's problems, it hasn't, you know, taken away the PTSD completely, it hasn't done anything huge, but it's it's had a small impact, and he's uh understands how that can help him now. And I've got plenty of stories of people like that. And I remember a lady, a lovely lady, coming to one of my other workshops, and she had been told that she was not creative and she was not good at art at school. She had a horrible art teacher, and she was in her 60s, possibly 70s. She told me it was about two sessions in, and she said, I've I've been doing this at home. She's had really bad anxiety, and she'd been doing this at home. She said, I've been doing about half an hour every day, and it really helps me. She said it's it's helped my anxiety so much, and she now still paints. This was two years ago, and she still paints, and being able to just help people notice how it is possible for them, and she hadn't painted since she was at school, and it makes me sad that you've had all of that time when you could have done this thing and you haven't done it because you didn't know it was okay for you to do it, and you didn't know it was possible for you to do it, and you didn't understand what it could feel like, and it is the feeling that I think is so important. And I mean, in my own children, if we're having a really stressful day, if I'm struggling, if they're struggling, I will often suggest doing some art, doing some drawing, doing some painting, because it calms everybody down. It just is it's a bit of a reset. And sometimes it might last for five minutes and then they might go and do something else, and sometimes it will last a lot longer. But I've noticed, my son particularly, he's at school and I remember he was worried about going back to school, and he suggested doing some drawing, and he he said, I'm gonna take a line for a walk. And I was like, Where did you learn that? And it was one of his challenges he had to do at school. So he took a line for a walk around the page, and then he coloured in the gaps that had where he'd crossed over the line, and he felt calmer afterwards. He still he was still a bit worried, but he actively noticed that that made him feel calmer, and I just thought, You're six years old, and you can see that that has just helped you. Just think of the amount of people who just like you could do that in a morning if you're feeling something's difficult. It's just another thing to add to your toolkit, isn't it? And I just seeing how impactful it is for people makes me want more people to know that.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Yeah, and it really works. My daughter is often drawing, martmaking at the kitchen table, but my husband also has an incredibly stressful job and has started in the last year to come home and do watercolouring. And it's just this really precious practice that we all witness and we all see it, and we all see the value that it gives him. And there is something about the collective, like, there is being around a workshop environment and witnessing other people kind of stepping into this practice, but there's also something about like I always find it fascinating about how we do or don't support people in our own homes with their well-being. And I see him watercolour, and I think, okay, not only is he doing this for himself, he's modelling it to our children that adults are also they get to make mistakes with choosing the wrong brand that day for their building, but also that we get to support him saying, Okay, we value that tonight you're not gonna be like hanging out and doing family time. I'm gonna be cooking dinner and you're gonna be doing some watercolours, and that's important for you, and that we get to facilitate other people's kind of toolboxes, like we get to support them and what do they need to take out in that moment and to do that. And I've just really experienced firsthand that joy of kind of seeing him turn to watercolour colours to help him and just help him feel better, and sometimes it is about getting better, and he is getting better, but and it's interesting to see sometimes, and this might be my background. Sometimes I see them and I think, oh, you could sell that, which is a dangerous place to get to. Because then what you're doing, you're like, Oh, how can this be more functional? How can this have more value? How can this be something that has a different status to it? And there's a shadow to this, isn't there? Like, the better we get, the more we can be pushed into mastery, and that mastery is about like how do you like quantify it and do something with that? So I have to really check the impulse to say, like, it is enough to be in process, and it is enough to do the thing for yourself, and it's enough to do it to feel better and not to get good at it.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Yeah, absolutely. Gosh, yeah, there's a lot in what you've said there. I think really important, it is not just for children. I think the spectrum of what I was just explaining about how my son used it and how the people in my workshops have used it, and what exactly what you've just said about your husband is why I think it's really important that everybody understands. And I think modelling that for your children, what your husband is doing, I think is really powerful because I think there is often a gap. Like often people give children colouring tools, and they, you know, they let them go and do their drawing, and they don't join in. It's a thing that children do, and then you don't do it when you're older. And I think again, this is why it gets lost. And society hugely undervalues creativity, and particularly the arts, and I think that is often where there is that kind of creativity and art gets wrapped like you know, bundled in all together because people don't want to be seen as being creative because it is not valued by society, and like you said earlier about at school, okay, you're the clever one, you're the creative one. Like Leonardo da Vinci is like the prime example of like it's all intertwined. There are so many famous mathematicians, like artists, scientists, it all crosses over, and we've got this all wrong because we're pigeonholing people. And I think this is why it's a really good example that all of these tools are available for you, and you don't have to make that your job and get to the point where you want to sell it all, you know, that's a completely separate thing, but it's understanding what it gives you, and it is that feeling that it gives you. And I think again, with your husband, and that's I run corporate workshops as well and filter into retreats and things like this, and I think that is a hugely important environment to kind of tap into because I feel like there is you get some people in those environments who are thinking, Oh, yeah, I really like creative things, and others who are like just don't understand the importance at all. But being able to present that to them and kind of gift them that time is really valuable, and to be able to do it with other people, so you're the conversations that come out when you're creating, when you're doing something, when you're making art, are so natural and it's a really wonderful way of connecting people, and this is why doing a lot of these things in community is kind of enhances the benefits because it's safe to not say anything, it's safe to talk about things, it's safe to you can pass the time of day, but actually a lot of the time you think, oh, well, you know, I'm noticing that I've been quite brave with this because I wasn't really sure about this. And actually, I've noticed that I quite like this bit, and that feels a bit scary to say that. And all of these conversations come up, and it's it's it's just really powerful. And I think again, it's so your husband picked watercolour, and that's really I mean, great, great choice. And I think again, it's often seen as a luxury, and I think it's often something that is once we've done our to-do list, maybe we could find some time for this. But I think if we can slot it in earlier in our to-do list, maybe even in the morning, that is unheard of here, but I But it if we can slot in something for ourselves in that way earlier on, it helps us get through our to-do list better. It helps us manage our days, our emotions, everything like that. And because it is seen as this luxury, and because it is seen as something that maybe you go off and do a day's workshop or something like that, it doesn't make it feel like, oh, I've got five minutes, I could just do a quick scribble, and maybe that would make me feel a little bit better. It's it's kind of maybe sometimes a bit on a bit of a pedestal, I think. And it and I don't think it needs to be. And again, it's just the reminder that actually you can sit down and you can create something and you can kind of get some feelings out. And I think as an adult, me trying to help my children regulate their emotions, having not learnt to do that as a child, like I'm literally learning this now. So the more tools that I can have that help me as well, like when they're sitting down and drawing, as much as possible, I will sit down and do it too, because it helps me, not just because it helps them, because it is it's regulating my own emotions as well. And I think that's really important. And then you talked about selling it, and yes, I think so many people go to that point of that's really good, you could sell it, or you could make prints, or you could make cards, or you could do this. And you absolutely could. And if you want to do that, wonderful, go and do it. That's brilliant, you definitely can. We don't have to monetize everything, and if we are monetizing it, we are changing what it is. And I think you have to then keep something for yourself. So yesterday I did uh online drawing workshop thing with somebody else. We were drawing frogs, did it with my children, finished it in the evening myself, and that was nothing is gonna happen with that. It's just for me, it's just experimenting with someone else's style, it's just having a play around and permission to just create in a different way for a couple of hours. And I think if you are going to make something your career or your job, or you're going to start selling it, it does change your relationship with it. It doesn't mean you don't enjoy it, but it changes your relationship with it and what it gives you. And I think you have to hold on to things for yourself. So maybe it's that you have other things, or maybe that it's you create in a different way for it when it's for yourself. Like sometimes I'll go out and I'll not often enough, but I will just go out and I'll do some drawing. It might be a day out, or it might be to our allotment, and I'll just sit for an hour and I'll do some drawing, or even half an hour. And again, it's for me, it's not because I'm doing it for a project, it's not anybody else. It's it's a thing for me, and I think that is when I really notice how helpful it is for me, particularly when it's outside. So I think it's if if you get to that point, it's holding on to it. It's all of this stuff of like, oh, we can we can just monetize everything. Let's sell it, let's sell it, make hundreds of prints.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

You said something earlier about you were doing the series for mind, and there's there was a six-week series, and I noticed that you're running the marathon for mind, you did some peer support training as well. Where do you think these pieces are coming from around like wanting to support mental health more?

SPEAKER_01 42:52

So I think it is a combination of noticing how I have been able to improve my own mental health and yeah, generally sort of like what we touched on earlier, and also then the work that I have done with my local minds with these workshops, and seeing the impact that it can have. And then a couple of years ago, I think it was, I had some counselling with mind. I'd never really had counselling before, and that was so helpful, and obviously it was subsidized because it was through my local mind, which was brilliant, which meant that I could afford to do it, and it was really, really helpful, and seeing the impact of that was important for me. And then this opportunity for peer support training came up, which was a 12 week course, and that I felt like that supplemented the work that I was already doing with them running the workshops because they're over six months, and you're you know, you're having all sorts of conversations with people and really supporting people through different things, and so that helped me sort of I guess. For not for necessarily formalize it, but it kind of gave me a training around something I felt like I was sort of already doing. And I just it's one of those things when I was talking earlier about a line being my word of the year and generally trying to follow my energy. These are things where I notice it's something that I really believe in and it's something that feels important. And I haven't necessarily gone, oh, okay, well, that's gonna slot into my work this way, or this is where it's gonna look, this is what it's gonna look like in the future. But it's been like this feels really important to me to do this, so I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna see what happens. And obviously, I've got my own mental health journey and I've seen how I can improve my own situation, and mine to being a small part of that as well, and no, a big part of that, I would say. And I think being able to, yeah, I've got my marathon place, which is really exciting, and being able to actually give back. And I applied for a charity, I applied for two different charity places, so I'm glad that I got on because but this was the one that meant the most to me, and which is, you know, it kind of just feels like a bit meant to be because I feel like I have so much connection with them. I mean, I'm running for national mind and I have more connection with my local mind because they're separate, but you know, it's all together, really. It's it's really important to me to talk about these kind of things and to raise awareness for mental health, to just understand that we're all trying our best as humans. We really are, and that people are in different situations and that we can help each other. And I think the peer support is such a good reminder of that because it's using your own mental health experiences to help others, and it's not saying we've gone through exactly the same thing, so I know how to fix you. It's none of that, and it's not saying I'm fixed and so I'll help you, it's saying that we're just walking along hand in hand, trying to kind of navigate the world and help each other along the way. And I just think that is such a wonderful outlook, and I just, goodness, if everyone had this training, we would be in such a different position in this country. It's just it's compassion and empathy that comes when you're really aware of yourself, yeah, understanding yourself to then understand how you can help others and and really listening to people, which people need to work on. Like I did, I needed to work on. I relatively recently had an ADHD diagnosis, and I was diagnosed with dyslexia when I was in university, and sort of just have navigated life around these things that you don't really I don't know, I it's just my experience, so it's not that I know any different, but it's just being able to have conversations with other people who kind of validate that experience, and I think sharing stories is something that is really important to me and comes out a lot in my workshops and my work and is why I love podcasts so much, and I think it's sharing, being vulnerable, being comfortable to be vulnerable, to connect with other people and allow your story to help other people, I think is really important to me.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

I am mindful of the time, and we have our five words segments, so I'm gonna do this in a slightly different way. You are very clear about your values, and I wondered if we could. Let's try this. I wonder if we could just do your values as our five words, which might make a bit easier. Because I think they're so woven through everything we've spoken about, but we haven't brought them to the full front of this. You have these five values that you talk about. I love values, I think that's such a wonderful way of anchoring ourselves. I had no idea they existed for most of my life, but that was fun. But once I did know they existed, it was like suddenly there is a path here. And so one of the values that comes up, and I find it really fascinating as an idea, is kindness. And kindness is something that we can have this association with that is fluffy and wispy, and yet there is so much strength to it, and it's such an empowering way of stepping into relationship or into our businesses or even into ourselves. So, why was kindness so important to you and why has that become one of your values?

SPEAKER_01 48:13

I'm really glad you asked me about that word. Um, I think it's one of the most undervalued things in our world. I think it feeds into every single aspect of our life, and I feel like it's something that is so important to me. I think I being kind to other people, being kind to the planet, being kind to yourself, being kind to in in every aspect of your life has a profound impact on yourself. I think that is a way to have a better life and feel happier and more content is to be kind, and kind isn't necessarily being nice, it's not being a people pleaser, it's not being a pushover, it is making the right choices for the right reasons, which sometimes are difficult choices, but coming at that with kindness and understanding and compassion and empathy, and a little bit like what we touched about on listening, really listening and understanding people, things like that. And I think kindness in business is often seen as a weakness. And I think more, thankfully, more people are talking about it isn't. And I think again, it is probably touching on being possibly more of a feminine trait. I mean, I that is a very stereotypical approach, but I just mean society looks at it perhaps more from that lens. So therefore, people in business are trying to not come across too kind because of all of this stuff that comes with that. And as women, it's something that we can perhaps push down and we can try and put on a certain front or whatever. But that softer kind of side I think is really, really important to me to bring into my business. And obviously, what we've touched on the areas that I work in, it's really important to me when I interact with other people. But I do find like that it's also really important to me with myself, and I think learning to be kind to myself, like my thought is literally about trying, and it's literally about being kind to myself to remind myself of my efforts, and I think that is a really, really big part of it.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Okay, my next word for you is a little bit different then. It's connection. I love connection. I find connection is a really fascinating word. So why is connection one of your values?

SPEAKER_01 50:47

I feel like connection that's kind of what we need as humans, isn't it? We need that connection. We need to be witnessed by other people, we need to be experiencing life with other people. I think connection can give us so much in terms of our relationships. We can have negative ones as well, and we can notice that and we can do something about that. This feeds into kindness a little bit as well. But also, I think connection to ourselves is so important, something that I didn't used to even know was a thing. And it's a real learning for me and has been really important and helpful, and I continue to learn all of that kind of thing. And but also things like connection to nature and what that brings us and the world around us, I think just sort of seeing how we can slot into this ridiculous world that we live in, and sort of what our purpose and our connection is to that, I think is it's just really important to me.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

Which leads me to the last word I think we'll do, which is so we're gonna save your other two values for another time, which is craft and positive impact. But I do want to talk about authenticity because authenticity is a word that is very much around right now, and I wonder what that now means to you having it sounds really lived your authenticity over the last five years.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Yeah, I think it's one of those funny words that I feel funny, including because of the fact that it's such a buzzword, but actually it's really important to me. I think it is really important to me to understand who I am so that I can be myself and that noticing that if I am in more alignment with myself, I will probably be more content, which will help me, and it will help my work, and it will help the people around me and the people that I work with. Trying to create a life that's kind of easeful and that is meaningful, and that I I'm reluctant to say it makes me happy because that's an unrealistic expectation to just be happy all the time, and we know that. But it's the contentment thing, I think. And I think being authentic is something that I sort of feel, well, I don't know how else to be, but actually that would always be my answer when anyone says, you know, you're you're really yourself, particularly online, and things like that. But actually, I don't have time to be complicated and not be myself, but also I don't think I used to know who that was. So I'm actually learning along the way who that is and being that person and kind of saying that as I go, and I think that gives people permission to do it too, because I think a lot of people struggle with that, I've noticed. And and I think that's been practiced talking about things, and I think the more we can open up and we can understand the value of that, I think the more we can help other people do it and give people permission permission to be themselves as well. Because I I do notice that people struggle with that and and maybe struggle to know who they completely are, and I think that's always going to be a journey, isn't it? But I think if we can give people permission to have these conversations, and actually what you said there about, you know, painting next to each other and having these deeper conversations, you're connecting on a deeper level, and you're getting a lot more out of that time and those relationships if you can be connecting on that kind of level, and it is enriching to your life and it will help you and help others, I think.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

There's something really beautiful about that that comes back to your thought. Like the idea that came to my mind was the idea about trying out loud. Like there is trying, like, you know, this message is pinged at you at 11 o'clock at night, and you're reading it in bed, and there's this idea about like how you know that you are trying, how you know that you're putting in the effort, how you can kind of congratulate yourself. But there's also this idea about how when we try out loud, when we acknowledge on an Instagram post that things are maybe a little bit more difficult, or that we have taken ourselves out of our comfort zone, or we're sharing a vulnerability, that trying out loud is really affirming for someone else too. And it's not the private moment in the bedroom, but it's like the more public moment that says, I am trying, and because I'm trying, it's okay that you try too. And there is something really lovely about that sharing of that too. So that brings me to my final question, which is how do you think you'll continue to hold on to this? Like, what do you think the next iteration in a sense of this thought might be for you?

SPEAKER_01 55:14

It sometimes just randomly pops into my head because it's been around for so long, it's now embedded as a thought. And so it is something that I do just remember, and I don't always look at it as I say, but sometimes I think, you know, if I'm feeling like I'm really struggling or it's particularly difficult and I'm like having to keep going, I do sometimes have that pop into my head, and that's really helpful. And it's like a reminder from myself of another time or something like that, which is really nice. I think it's one of those things that will continue to be relevant for a long time because of what it is and how it will uh evolve with where I am. I also think there are all sorts of different evolutions that it could take in terms of changing the reminder and writing something else down, but it's noticing what you need and noticing what you maybe need to hear and tuning into that. So again, this going back to kind of learning about yourself and actually listening to yourself and maybe giving yourself time to pause so that you can listen to yourself and think, what do I actually need? And I think perhaps for me it might be something about that alignment about following the energy, which is what I'm trying to remind myself of this year. I've never done a word of the year, but I'm actually paying attention to it this year. And the alignment piece is really helpful, and already, whether that's inquiries, whether that's what I'm saying yes to, whether that's you know, family plans, like whether that's something from within me, like actually, I'm really exhausted today, I'm not gonna go for that run. I need to rest. Like, that's all of that stuff is okay. And I think maybe it's a piece around that, and it is a piece around noticing what I need and then what the next step is.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Do you know what's really lovely? I was thinking about you listening to podcasts and this sort of idea about osmosis and it all kind of landing. And there is something really beautiful about how you show up on podcasts, and how you show your vulnerability and your stories and these different layers. And I love the idea that there's someone else listening to you who via osmosis, this is kind of landing for them too. So, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing so much of the power and the importance about creativity and really giving us a different way to think about it and really bring it into our lives. Thank you for being here. And thank you so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you. So I'm curious as you go into your week whether this is a thought that you'll keep, share, or even forget. I need to credit myself for how hard I am trying. Maybe you'll keep it like a half-finished sketch left on the table. Maybe you'll share it, standing on the edge of the allotment, getting into more than the slugs on the kale. Or maybe you'll come back to it when you're halfway through a run and your mind is racing too. If you enjoyed this conversation and you're curious about how to work with Imogen, there are details about her workshops, about her gorgeous cards, about all that she's doing to spread this message that creativity is really for all of us. You can also join me over at Substack at MoreGood Days, where together we are trying to navigate all the things we're supposed to be doing and being and thinking and feeling right now just to be well. And if you are finding yourself wanting a bit more support with how you're feeling, or you're curious about how to access creativity as one of the pillars of your well-being, then do come over to if loss. This show is created and hosted by me, Claire Fitzsimmons, and it's supported by you, my listeners. There are details in the show notes about how to support the show and keep it going. And you can do that by becoming a monthly paying subscriber. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back next Monday with another conversation and another thought that you might want to keep too.