When Being Good Is Exhausting with Alice Bramhill

There are times in life when trying to be a good person can become exhausting.

A good daughter. A good mother. A good friend. A good employee. A good partner. A good citizen. So much of our lives can be shaped by trying to meet expectations, keep the peace, and make other people comfortable. But what happens when being good starts pulling us away from ourselves?

In this episode, I talk to Alice Bramhill about the thought she has carried with her from Carl Jung for decades: "I'd rather be whole than good."

Alice is a psychotherapist, mental health nurse, writer, podcaster, and advocate for deep feelers and big-hearted people pleasers. Together, we explore the hidden cost of constantly trying to get things right, and the relief that can come when we stop treating parts of ourselves as problems to solve.

We talk about people-pleasing, self-trust, sensitivity, boundaries, burnout, and the long process of learning to listen to ourselves again. We explore why so many of us struggle to know what we really want, how assumptions shape our lives and relationships, and why acceptance may be far more powerful than perfection.

Along the way, we discuss late-diagnosed neurodivergence, creativity in midlife, visibility, rejection sensitivity, motherhood, and the everyday work of becoming more fully ourselves.

What I loved about this conversation is that it isn't really about self-improvement. It's about self-acceptance. About letting go of the exhausting performance of being who we think we should be, and making room for who we actually are.

Alice Bramhill is a registered mental health nurse, psychotherapist, writer, podcast host, and creator of a thriving community for deep feelers and big-hearted people pleasers. Diagnosed with ADHD at 47 and autism at 50, she specialises in supporting late-diagnosed neurodivergent adults around relationships, boundaries, self-trust, masking, rejection sensitivity, and burnout. Her first book, I Need My Space But I Like You Too, is out later this year.

Whether you're navigating anxiety, emotional overwhelm, people-pleasing, or simply wondering how to feel more at home in yourself, I hope you'll find something in Alice's thought that stays with you too.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hi and welcome to this week's episode of A Thought I Kept, a weekly podcast about the ideas that stay. I'm your host, Claire Fitzsimmons, a well-being writer, author, coach, and the co-founder of If Lost Start Here. I have a really joyful episode for you today because I'm talking to Alice Bramhill. Alice is a registered mental health nurse, she's a psychotherapist, and she's also the host of the podcast and the writer of the substat for the deep feelers and big-hearted people pleasers. Honestly, both have been so pivotal in helping me make sense of my own possibly neurodivergent frame. There have been so many moments reading her work, but also being on her Instagram account and just around her where I've thought, oh, that's what this is. And really feeling that relief of finding language for experiences that I may have thought were personal failings. Alice has also written a book, I Need My Space, but I Like You Two, that will come out later this year and is currently available for pre-order. I'm really excited to get hold of a copy when I can. Because there's so much wisdom and warmth and joy and connection in all that Alice does. Alice specializes in supporting late-diagnosed, neurodivergent adults, particularly around relationships, boundaries, self-trust, rejection sensitivity, masking, and burnout. Alice was diagnosed with ADHD at 47 and autism at age 50, and she brings both clinical expertise and lived experience to these conversations in a way that feels, I think, grounding and compassionate. In this conversation, we explore what it means to discover yourself later in life and realize that you were never broken in the first place. We talk about people pleasing and the fawn response, the guilt of not being able to make simple things work. And the slow, often messy process of learning to trust ourselves again. So wherever this episode binds you, I hope that you might discover something in this week's thought that you can carry with you into your everyday life. Here's my conversation with the wonderful Alice Bramhall. Alice, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. It's so nice to spend some time with you and to have you here. I have spent this week sharing quotes from your wonderful Instagram and podcast with friends. And we've just been going backwards and forwards saying, oh my goodness, this woman is just so brilliant and wonderful. And we wish that we had you right next to us all the time, reassuring us that we're actually kind of normal people and we're doing okay in the world. And that there's ways through all of the overwhelm and the exhaustion and all the stuff. So it's been really fun to be in your company, pre-being your company. But I'm really happy to have you here today.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

How are you? So lovely. So lovely. Yeah, I'm good. I'm doing my usual. I was painting with my son, and then I started to make some scones. Then I realized I had black paint down my face, and I was just like, Books can't talk to Claire, which is going to be lovely. So I'm in my usual multitasking, not quite nailing it, but trying it anyway.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Are we ever nailing it?

SPEAKER_00 3:43

No.

unknown 3:44

No.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

And it's a lovely idea that there's wet paint and there's scones in the oven. Being around that kind of level of creativity and kind of ordinary mess is quite nice.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

I love the everyday. I really do. I embrace it. There was a time when I would have said that definitely like I was never going to experience that as well, and experience the joy that can come from every day. I think when you're not comfortable with who you are and where you are in the world, the everyday feels pretty sludgy and pretty horrid. And now I, you know, I do get a lot of joy from it.

unknown 4:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

I'm not going to say the content word, but you know, getting that. But that is such a reframe though, isn't it? Because in a sense we can feel like we're only ever in the drudgery. Yeah. And we're only ever in like the forgetting the passwords or figuring out how to pay a bill or picking someone up. Or and if we're only ever in that, it can feel you feel the monotony of the everyday, don't you? And it feels like the ordinary becomes something that is almost another thing to berate ourselves for. And I like that idea that the everyday in and of itself can be the joy. And it can be the place that you do want to be in. You do want to find contentment within.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Absolutely. Yes. And I've really fought hard to get to that place, it feels because well, of course, like modern life is just full of just layers of. We were talking about this this morning in our co-working, like all the layers of admin, you know, how making an appointment now involves forms and sending forms in and getting on waiting, like everything. There's so many layers, and it can feel like really frustrating. And of course, then we look outside, you know, and other things that are happening in the world. And I guess for me, because I have a child who has been very anxious for the last couple of years. I mean, really, post-COVID, my home I think could have felt a bit like a prison at times because I haven't been able to go out and do things that I was doing before. And I decided that it can actually become like a temple, not a prison. Everything I need could be here and I could find it here instead of thinking it's always out there. And I think I was very much, well, you know, I think we're conditioned to believe that too. You know, that's the marketing, isn't it, of patriarchal capitalism, that the answer is out there if you have that new thing, if you get if you go to this new place and do this new thing. And actually, a lot of the stuff that we need is right here in front of us, like the creativity we can tap into. And um, so yeah, like it's been a really lovely with its ups and downs, of course, but finding out that I can have that, you know. I didn't have a very settled childhood, I didn't have a great time. I've had lots of unsettled periods, and midlife has really brought something very beautiful to me, and I'm really grateful for that.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Do you feel like you're settled now where you are?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, of course, there's still lots of discovery to be done, and I don't think that's ever gonna end, but certainly I don't I know I'd say kind of probably the last kind of six, how old? Yeah, so 52 in a few weeks. So yeah, there's something magical if that thing happens in the kind of mid-late 40s. I really do. It's not always, you know, it's not always brilliant, and I've lost close people far too soon, and I think that is there is nothing like a bereavement, is there to bring things into focus and really make you re-evaluate, you know, what is important and how we we it's so so easy to get in our heads about things and treat it like it's the end of the world if it happens or doesn't happen. And of course, you know, I'm talking from a position of privilege, but what I learned from those situations is that it's all just a bit of an experiment, isn't it? Really? We don't know what's gonna happen. There is very little certainty, and maybe there's some joy to be found in that rather than, of course, joy and grief. Probably two sides of the same coin in a way, and I think you've got to feel the grief to let the joy in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Yeah, I think I'm finding that too. I think midlife, it's funny, I find that I occupy the in-betweens more than I ever thought I would before. So I think when I was younger, I thought in absolutes, I think I had a real sense that in terms of you know there would be only joy or only grief, I thought there would be only certainty and uncertainty wasn't welcome. And I think like definitely this idea that you said about being settled or discovery. Yeah, I think I felt like there was only discovery, and through discovery I would get to be settled. And in midlife, I find that in constantly there is so admittedly there's confusion in that, there's exhaustion in that, there's on the edge of burnout in that. And also, I think there's a kind of relief in that sometimes too, and a letting go in that and a self-trust in that, and just being okay with being in between and coexisting and opposing things. I think that's almost where the learning is right now for me.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I really relate to that. It's inhabiting this, those like the liminal spaces because we have been conditioned to believe in the absolute, you know. Well, where do you stand? You're either this or you're that, and it's got to be this or it's got to be clear like who are you? What do you write about? What do you make as an artist? You know, what do you believe in? Because I guess inherently we are tribal and people want to know what you stand for, but it's much more nuanced than that, isn't it? We are many, we are multifaceted, there are many sides to us, and that's fluid too, isn't it? It does change, and to not be fearful of that and to do it like you know, to discover yourself while you're doing it. I was saying to my son earlier, you know, about drawing and art, and he said, you know, I'm not good at at drawing people. And I said, Well, what is but what is it, what does being good mean anyway? Like, what is that concept? According to who, and also you've got to do it to find what your style is and who you are, and that's your interpretation. There is what what this idea of what good is really it stays with me a lot. I get very annoyed with it sometimes, which yeah, because I think it does determine a lot of our lives, you know. This idea of what good is can really make us feel a lot of shame, can put us put us off and stop us doing things that we could find a lot of joy in otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Where do you see the idea about being good in your own life and your own experience?

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Oh my goodness, such a long relationship with it, which get it comes onto the thought I kept, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah, should we go there? Yes, tell me, what was the thought?

unknown 10:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

So when I was this is so interesting because when I was doing my nursing training, so when I was 18, I moved to London and I studied at St. Bartholomew's School of Nursing and midwifery, like the good girl does, you know, um, because it was, you know, like when I was doing I so I was a nursing auxiliary from when I was 16, and all the people that I worked with saying, you know, you got you've got to go to the top teaching hospitals, you know, applied to those. And so I did, and I got in, and I was like, I felt like a square peg in a round hole. It was a really um, it was very interesting. I found people, and that that was okay. But um, so it was during that time, and I was doing general nursing, and then I changed to mental health nursing after doing some placements, and we had this amazing psychology teacher, she was from Hong Kong, she was amazing. Anyway, we we talked about Carl Jung, and Carl Jung's the idea. I mean, there's lots of his, there's lots of quotes of his work, but the idea that I would rather be whole than good, and that that was when I first heard that. Yeah, and there's lots of others of his that I will pull out of the bag because they've just been so useful to me, and I think at that time, like it did have an impact. It was like, what I'd rather be whole than good. Like, okay, that's really mind-blowing. What does that really mean? And I don't think, and you know, I've come across it again and again in you know the three decades of my career, and when I was then doing my therapy training within the NHSO 16 years ago, that quote was there again, and it was just like, Oh, here you are again. I think I I really understand what that's about now, and yeah, it's just stayed with me. And so the idea of being good, that's something that we are, I guess, wholeness, you know. What even does being whole mean? So there's two parts to that, isn't it? It's like rejecting the idea of being good, you know, being conditioned and socialized in the world as a woman, and growing up within Catholicism and patriarchal capitalism. Of course, the idea is that we do end up being good citizens, and what does a good human do? You know, it's one who doesn't get into trouble, works nine to five, pays your bills, has 2.4 children, like that, all these markers of success of which we are measured by, and that you know, and people say they're a good person. And I remember hearing that such a lot growing up, especially like going to church, going to a Catholic school, and like, oh, they're a good person. I remember thinking, they're not. I don't think they are a good person, this idea of them being good, and I remember thinking, well, they appear to be good on the outside, but I've seen them be really bad, and I did experience a lot of very unpleasant things through that system, and you know, as a young woman in the world, and this, you know, hearing like, oh yeah, these are good people. It's like I I remember just thinking, like, I don't understand why people are saying that because I don't think they are good people, and I guess that was my you know, spidey senses tingling a lot of the time. And I just remember thinking there's such a lot of hypocrisy in the world, and what what does even being good mean? And not really understanding that, you know, I was burning myself up constantly trying to be this good girl, you know, the good girl who got good grades, who did well at things, got praise, was good at baking, embroidery, oh, you know, just good at stuff. And I think we are set up in a behavioural system that rewards people for that. You know, there's very clear outward rewards for that. So, of course, that's an extrinsic motivator, isn't it? So then we think, okay, well, if I do more of that, I'll get even more praise. And of course, you know, our reward system, you know, goes, oh yeah, this is lovely, you know. But actually, it stops us being who we really are, because then we have to reject and abandon parts of ourselves that we feel aren't good. Now, they're not necessarily bad, and we know that the world isn't binary, is it? Things aren't either good or bad. Very often there's there's a lot of grey area in between. And when I could start to sort of understand that, and I think I have to say, particularly getting my ADHD and autism diagnosis and going through that process with my children, it became even more pertinent. Obviously, all the years of client work that I'd done, but actually understanding these parts of myself that it was very clearly a message that they were not parts to be embraced, you know, that I wasn't a good person, that I wasn't a good citizen, that I wasn't this idea of what a woman at my age and stage should be. Once I realized that actually all this was welcome, all of these parts are okay. You know, I would much rather be whole than good. I want to be the whole person. I don't have to reject those parts because those parts are actually they can be, you know, have real depth to them and bring a lot of richness to life. But they're often the parts we talk about the shadow and stuff as well, they're often the parts that we're told, you know, oh, repress that, shut that down, pretend that isn't happening, polish it all. Um, and that's the good bit that we show to people. And um, I yeah, I just feel that that's oh it just there isn't the depth there that I really enjoy and can really embrace. So it's really meant a lot to me. And I know, like when I've talked with clients about that saying, those words that I'd rather be whole than good, there's been lots of light bulb moments. Uh, what that can lead to. Just somebody understanding that there's parts of themselves that they've maybe denied and has caused them a lot of grief and shame. That you know, it's okay. It's uh it's okay. Bring it in. We don't need to pretend that that doesn't happen. Because it's a weight, isn't it? It can be like a real weight that gets carried around and a burden.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

It sounds like there was an inkling of what this was even before you heard it, because in your childhood there was this real disconnection between this appearance of being good, and that you can already see, you can already see it even then that this person isn't like outwardly, they're one thing, inwardly they're quite another thing, and we are receiving them as a society in a whole different way. Yeah, and already there's something about self-trust there, isn't there? You can see something, but other people are not seeing it. So already we can start to doubt our own perceptions of good, yeah, and then how we then take that on ourselves. There's a whole question mark there, and I love this sense that when you start, you when you heard it, you're still in question with it. You're still like, wait, what does this mean? And there's something there, and what is that to me? And there's still that doubt there around it as well. When did you have the sense that you were stepping away from doubting of yourself or doubting of the this idea about good, stepping into what it really meant to you and the belief in something else?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think honestly, I think during the pandemic I that's when, you know, those couple of years, and and again, like I was saying, like haven't getting my diagnosis and really understanding, and you know, for me that was a time to be able to like put the brakes on. And actually, I went back to university. I'd I'd gone back to university it's in 2018, I'd left my job already, um, and I was really burnt out, I had really high blood pressure, I was not well, and uh I'd I'd already sort of completed an art foundation some years before as a mature student, and I just was like, you know what? It was following the bereavement of a close family member, and I was just thinking, what is this all about? I'm gonna be working for another 40 years, like I need to do something different here because this model is not working. So I packed it in and went to university. I still did like some triage work for the NHS during COVID, etc. But it was seeing again the education system as a 44-year-old woman doing a degree with lots of younger students and just the hierarchies and the power structures, and at the same time, my children coming out of school, they'd come out of school in 2018, the year I started my degree. So I kind of it was all or nothing. Like it's all or nothing. Because me, you know, if I go at something, I'll go at it and I'll give it my all. And and it was just that dismantling of ideas of what you know, what did success really look like? What does that mean? What does it mean to be happy? You know, how are we measuring that? And realizing that, so you know, being in a university system and doing art, which is it's a very subjective thing, it's a very personal thing. And that work, a lot of the younger students, you know, that work being marked and then being told that maybe it wasn't good enough. And um I used to get, you know, and seeing how upset people were waiting on every word, waiting to see what mark they had got, was it good enough, and when it wasn't, how that impacted them. And I just wanted to say, oh God, it doesn't matter. Are you enjoying it? Like, I didn't want to be like this old woman sat in the corner, like you know. I mean, I was probably a bit of a pain. Um, but um again, you know, I like to question things and I like to understand things. I'm not questioning things just to be difficult, it's because I I really want to understand, like, why do we need that system? Why does that need to be be that way? And that idea of like something being good and not being good, that was so much part of that. You know, I'd have to go through trying to justify to people why was I taking my my kids out of school that I wasn't having some kind of breakdown by doing these things. You know, there was very much an assumption that, oh, you know, what's happening there? Somebody said to me, Oh, have you won the lottery or something? You know, you're leaving your job, doing the green, taking your kids out. And I was like, in a way, yes. No, I haven't won the lottery. But I just believe that this is one life, and you know, let's go for wholeness, not goodness. Like that's got to be the driving force. So that was really around at that time, and that led into my ADHD diagnosis. So it was, I guess, a breaking down of those structures, you know, because again, I was a clinical team leader in the NHS. I had a pension, I had a lease car, you know, all of these things, these chattels around, you know, this idea of this is what a successful person is. And, you know, we know we get very attached. Our ego gets very attached to the idea of our status and position, and letting go of that, I was very interesting noticing kind of what was happening and how people really cling on to the status of what they do and who they are, because in the eyes of the world and society, that means they're a good person. And I wanted to divest from that completely, the idea. And now I'm sort of crossed myself that I went to university and got a degree because even that the academic world, what does it mean to have a degree? What does it mean to be this, that, and the other? Like, what does it actually? Of course, for some jobs and roles, you need that in patriarchal society. We do measure people. By like, oh, you know, they're very interesting. They're a doctor, you know, or you know, when when you listen out and you hear how people talk and what they value, it's it's quite you can hear it quite quickly, can't you? What people value, because that's what they say about people, is how well they're doing or not. And I guess for me, like um breaking all that down and walking away from that, I it was like shedding, it was like I'm letting go of these ideas of what that is. But I don't think that's important, actually. I think living a whole life where all of you get to have a say, our inner child, our all the parts of us that we've maybe had to shut down are just yeah, I think it's a very freeing it's a freeing place to be.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

What was the impact on your relationships of that? Because what really struck me about what you just said was that you are letting go and you are shedding, and you are in a way remaking your life in this moment, and there's a freedom in that, but there's also other people that are struggling to let you have that experience. And you know, that comment about have you won the lottery is absolutely striking, and the sense that other people want a version of good for you and not a version of whole for you.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yeah, I think it has a really big impact. I mean, I think right from becoming a mother, I mean I don't think this is the only way to it, but I guess for me, um, you know, that was such a like relationships changing. I mean, I I'm friendships changed. I think when you're shedding a lot of people that we were friends with through school, some didn't want to be friends with us anymore because they thought we were maybe. I don't know, you know, fully the story, but it's interesting that people have got in touch since, and some of them have been like on the periphery, but you know, I think, you know, that whole system it did bring a ready-made kind of friendship group, but you know, I'll always go for depth. I'm not a massive fan of big groups of people. I used to think I was, but that was when I was drinking and socialising, and I don't drink really anymore. Um, and what I discovered is actually, you know, I like the depth of one-on-one, like that's so much more nourishing to me. And I guess the relationships have stayed that that we're going to stay, and our world has got smaller in a way, but it's also got bigger in another way. It's really interesting. Because of course, like, if you going back to like stuff that I have learnt about in my career, like Donald Winnicott as well, so he talked about the good enough mother, and that was always that that that stayed with me too. So, this idea that you know, being good enough, you know, that we don't we're not striving for perfection, but I think perfectionism is kind of baked in, it's baked into the society that we're in, you know, do it well, and and the pressure that that puts on people. And I know, like, you know, my high blood pressure and stuff, I was doing that at work, you know, I was in a payment by results service in the NHS, you know, we're working with people, we can't, you know, necessarily do it that way, but that was being asked of us, and yeah, that pressure became just too much, really, and I couldn't rationalise it in my head why that needed to be that way. And I guess, you know, like now, I feel very grateful for the people I have in my life because they really get me, and I get them, I hope. And I remember my first manager when I qualified, she was an amazing woman, and she would talk, I mean, right from the get-go about the depth of relationships. You know, she said, I'd rather be able to count my friends, you know, good friends on one hand, people that you can really rely on and count on. And of course, interpersonal psychotherapy, what I do is it's all about that relational world, you know, understanding, you know, your relationships. And of course, we have layers of that. So there are people that we maybe don't have that depth of connection with. Um, and then going inwards, the people that we really have a depth of connection with, hopefully, we can really be ourselves with, otherwise, it's going to be very exhausting because they're probably the people you spend most of your time with, the people that you reach out to, and if you you can't sort of unmask or be yourself around, then, with all your crazy ideas about the world, then it's great to be authentic for yourself. But I think it's even better to have people that you can be that person with and that they get you and don't judge you. Because a lot of that comes from fear anyway, doesn't it? People judge because they're scared or they don't understand why somebody is doing what they're doing and they question it. And it often comes from a very fear-based scarcity mindset, really.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Okay, so there's something in there that's very much about like this diagnosis later in your life, and the real consequences that had and the shift that had that had in your relationships. Yeah. And I was curious about there was something that I found really fascinating about your work. And it's around this idea about how we show up in relationships with our neurodivergent brains. There's one aspect of that I find myself going back to again and again.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

And that is something around, I think, people pleasing and boundaries. And there was something I think that you said that's that was about how typical boundary advice doesn't work for neurodivergent brains. And I'm curious about what's missing, what's missing in the advice around how we hold boundaries, how we show up in relationships, and how we might find ourselves people pleasing in order to stay in those relationships that we do have.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Yeah, so I mean it's a really, I mean, it's a huge topic, isn't it? How can I sort of sum it up? But um I think what it's I think on that authenticity piece, so you know, in terms of boundaries and it all ties in with consent and something that we're not taught really, and right from the beginning, you know, we don't live in a consent-based society and system in Western patriarchal society, things are done to us rather than with us, and that that precedent is set right from the beginning. You know, we get into a school and education system, we're told when our breaks are, when where our body needs to move, when we're allowed to go to the toilet, you know, when do we finish that day, when we're allowed to play. So, right from the very beginning, consent is is something what, and I think that's why we have a bit of an issue with consent, and like that's a much, much wider issue. Um, very pertinent, you know, to now. Um, but the idea that we have to learn, we have to learn our internal boundaries and what those boundaries are and trust ourselves that that we know what we need. But unfortunately, and I think we're born knowing that, but we're socialized out of that because of the systems that we're in and things we're told, oh, you can't do that, that's bad or good. Again, that comes into it. So the idea of what I believe and what I've seen to be true is that when you know, if you are neurodivergent, particularly autistic ADHD, can often be uh, you know, persensity to other people's feelings and emotions. So we may, you know, people pleasing is a product, isn't it, of that capitalist patriarchal society and trying to be good. Because if we're trying to be good, it means we're trying to please and elicit a response where we're told and we're rewarded. So people pleasing becomes a very seductive loop to be stuck in. Um, and you know, of course, we're habit-forming creatures, we like to do things on repeat, and that's what we do. But the realization from that, and it might be, you know, with I don't know, there's been some books out by people who maybe don't know as much as they think they know about boundaries and let you know how to put them down, but it's not as easy as just saying no, because a no, generally your nervous system will reject it and won't let you do it, or you'll reverse it and you'll say, Oh, I didn't mean to say that. And what are we saying no to? It's like we have to understand we have to understand ourselves first and our internal boundaries. And that is like going right back to basics of finding out who we are. What do we like? What food do we want to eat? What do we want to go? Who do we want to be with? Who makes us feel good? Who doesn't? What clothes do you like to wear? And you know, if you've been, you know, somebody as well who has a different nervous system who has got those traits and they haven't been seen before, of course, you know, sensory issues are going to be heightened because you're put in places that feel uncomfortable, you're wearing stuff, school uniforms, you're going to places and you're told that you know you've got to say hello and hug that creepy uncle and you've got to do this and that. So people really struggled. Like, what even is a boundary? You know, what is what does that even mean? So when I say like about you know, the regular boundary vice doesn't work, it's because you've got to know, you've got to back yourself, right? And back what you're doing, but you you can't do that until you really know what it is that you want and don't want. And yes, some of that is trial and error, absolutely, is kind of doing the thing thinking, oh, I don't think I like that anymore. Am I doing that because I really like that and enjoy that? And I'm not saying for a minute that people pleasing sometimes we want to do that, and it's a conscious choice because you know, we might purposefully like you know, say there's you know, your your grandmother and you know you really love them and you want them to be happy, and so you might do something that you know you know is going to make them happy. It's not your favourite thing to do, but you're going to do it because you've chosen that. And I think there's a real distinction between doing something. I mean, I'm actually writing a book on it at the minute, so I'm in full flow, which is my next book. But so making a conscious choice about something is very different to doing it unconsciously. So there, you know, that's the other quote of Carl Jung, which is until we make the unconscious conscious, it will rule our lives, and we will call it fate. So that is also like that has really stayed with me because we'll just keep doing it, you know, we'll keep doing it and we'll go along with what other people say and do. So that person or that setting or that thing you do or that food you eat, and you're thinking, I don't really like this. This isn't for me. And I don't know that person, I'm not really quite sure about everyone saying, Yeah, but they're fine. Like, look, they're a great person, and I've experienced this quite a lot. And I'm thinking, well, it must just be me. It must just be me, you know, there's something, but there's something going on here, and then you find out later on that actually this person was not very nice and not the person you thought. And I guess it challenges, doesn't it? That idea of A standing up and saying, I don't think like that. I actually I'm gonna challenge that idea because I want to set a limit here, I want to put a boundary in, I don't want to be in that space because it makes me feel not very good. And I can't tell you what that is yet, but it's there and I feel it. And so I think a lot of it comes down to self-trust, it's unlearning that conditioning, understanding yourself, not thinking, you know, well, I've got to say no to this and yes to that. No, right, we're allowed to consent to how we spent our life and who we spend it with, and we should be encouraging that in everybody, but of course it starts so it starts so early, there's a lot of undoing to be done.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

I really liked so much of what you said, but something that really s stood out for me was the idea that it's okay to make people happy sometimes because as somebody who I find people pleasing fascinating. I know that my default is to go to the foreign response. I know that I like to make people happy and I know where that comes from. Yeah, I also know that what I don't want to take on is that it's entirely bad that I'm a people pleaser. Yes. Because I sometimes I'm like, oh god, that has become something, another thing that I can again berate myself for. To only ever see through a lens of people pleasing, how I show up in the world and how I'm in a relationship, can become unhelpful for me. So I'm really happy that you actually noted that and said, actually, sometimes we want to make our granny happy and we want to meet someone with kindness. And I think there's something for me there about safety and connection. Yes, and intentionality. And I think when they're present and I'm aware why and how and for whom I'm doing it, I think I'm okay with it.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Yeah, I'm I'm really glad to hear that, and I absolutely wholeheartedly agree with that. That's why, you know, my very long-winded like publication is for the deep feelers and the big-hearted people pleasers, you know. I want very clearly not to say that this is a bad thing, right? You know, we embrace that that part of ourselves that does that, but like you just said, it's like, is that an intentional thing, or is it more of that, you know, stress response? So like, is it a fawning? Um and even sometimes it is, you know, it is, but you know, having that awareness of like what you're doing, so it isn't running away with itself and it feels kind of like you're totally out of, it's not within your kind of control, as so few things are, but yes, I think intentionally doing stuff to please other people at times is okay, of course, and it's very situation-specific as well. Like I want to make my children happy, I want to please, you know, I want them to be pleased and happy because it brings me such a lot of pleasure. But if I was doing that, you know, and because, you know, I felt I had to, you know, of course I still have boundaries, that's still important, but you know, if I was going around doing that because I, you know, I was just so hungry for that reward because I didn't have like that sense of self that knew it was intentional. I mean, that's where burnout comes, doesn't it? When we're just often trying to make everybody happy, yet our self is just getting depleted and depleted. So no, I'm all for that.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

It makes me think about the title of your book that's coming out in September. Oh yeah. And this idea that I need my space, but I like you too. Because it has both, doesn't it? It's not the absolute. Could you because it's on pre-order, it's not yet out. Um could you share a little bit about how you approached that book? Yeah and also what the experience of writing it was for you because what I really love about your story is there is a sense that in midlife there was this kind of awakening of creativity. There was something about doing the degree, there was something about really stepping back into the space and becoming a writer aged 50, 51? Yeah, yeah. What was that like for you coming into that and coming into writing and then writing the book? And I've heard you talk about being really intentional about pitching it, making it happen, being like, enough, this is the time for this to happen. What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_00 37:17

So fascinating, Claire, honestly, like so interesting. It's it's and it's kind of full circle. So when I was younger, I used to write, and but again, that wasn't something that people from my background did. You know, you you got a job and you didn't go and study, and obviously I went to nursing college, so being a nurse was like, yeah, that was really backed. I wanted to be a journalist, that's what I really wanted to do because I'd been a young carer, my mum was disabled, still is when I was growing up, and um, that was just a role I fell into again. It was it came so easy to me. But yes, writing was something that I really enjoyed doing, and I guess in a way, you know, being a nurse, having to keep records, writing referrals, writing reports, writing discharge summaries, I've been writing continuously, you know, it was a huge part, obviously, it was a huge part of my job. So, in a way, how I approached it is I think I've just in what year is it now? Christmas 2024, a close friend passed away, and I kind of made a decision then that I'd been doing, I was gonna start doing some more posts on Instagram because it'd mainly been an art account, right for my ceramics, and I thought I want to download this information about what I do and how I work with people, and I'm not really sure how I'm gonna do it, but it I think maybe I'll put it into a book, and so I didn't really have a clear idea of what that was going to look like, but I kind of had the idea and I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna write a book. So I got a proposal together very sketchily, and it was basically just really talking about the work I did, but putting it in a format. I mean, that's really um in a way, it felt very easy because it's something I've been doing for a long time, and it brings me a lot of joy doing that. So yeah, I put a pitch in and I looked at what publishers would be in my genre, and I looked at JKP, put a pitch in. They got back to me very quickly, and I had a meeting, and at that time I didn't have any, you know, I had maybe like 1800 followers or something on Instagram. I wasn't like uh in terms of an option, I was a bit of a it was a bit of a punt for them to like go with me, but they did, and um, and I thought, oh well, I better write it now. So um, you know, and um yeah, then I just methodically what I did initially was kind of treated it and I thought I know like I want to include this bit, this bit, and this bit. So I sort of started to write each chapter on its own, and then I kind of probably didn't help myself in that way. Then I had to sort of pull it together as a book. So it was like obviously because I'd been back at university, I'd had to write a lot of essays, and so that kind of got me back into that kind of writing, but honestly, it was so joyful because I'm at home a lot. You know, my my kids don't go to school, I'm here, I work from home. It became like my hyper focus, really. So yeah, I did that. It took me about six months, I think, and then edits and stuff, and yeah, it just felt like really natural to do that, and so alongside that, then I decided okay, I'd heard the substat, maybe I'll set up and I can like practice, continue practice, practice my visibility, obviously, as an older woman, and you know, coming to that, and then I'll practice with my Instagram, just getting visible. And I worked with a couple of coaches who helped me to sort of understand what Instagram was all about. Um, and yeah, just kind of took it from there, really. I love a challenge. If someone says to me you can't do that, I will find a way to do it. And nobody had said you can't do that, but I think you know, I love breaking glass ceilings, like I love that idea of and also a massive part of coming home to myself. This was a part of me that I had in some ways it felt I don't want to use the word childish because I really hate that, what it could allude to, but in some ways it felt like I was being very self-absorbed by doing that, you know. Who do I think, you know, and in it it asked of me then I had to do another level of work with my inner critic because it was all about like who do you think you are? You're writing a book, people like you don't write a book, like people from your background don't write a book, and all of that was going on, and I had to just keep no, it's okay, like it's just give it a go, just see what happens. And again, you know, it's all just a bit of an experiment, isn't it? What's the worst that's gonna happen? I get rejected, it doesn't sell, people say it's rubbish. Okay, well, but I've done it, I've exercised my right to put my work into the world and and it's done. So yeah, I really enjoyed that process, and then it was October last year, then I got contacted by another publisher who said, Would you like to write your first book with me? And I said, Well, actually, I've just just handed it in, and it's just going through like line edits at the moment with the with the publishers. So I got approached to write another book, and actually I didn't go with them in the end. There was an option clause with JKP, and so I offered it to them. And I'm actually so I'm writing my second book at the moment that'll come out next year, and yes, it's I don't know. I mean, I don't think anyone, I'm not gonna get rich out of making books, and that's not why I'm doing it. It's for me, it's like it's A, I want to destigmatize and be talking more about neurodivergence in the world and about relationships, that's very important to me. But also, yeah, for me as a human being, breaking those ceilings and saying, you know what, you can you we can do this, it's fine, nothing bad is gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

There's such a joy in this, like what I love, there's there's such an idea about the tortured writer. There's the idea about who gets to have a voice. Yeah, there's something about not believing it's for you, but then really knowing it's for you. Like at your core, you know this is for you. You know you're a writer, you know you get to be an author, but it's like there's so much unlearning in that, isn't there? And I love this idea that when you got there, there's why not? This can be for me, and this this flow of it and how natural it kind of sounds like it felt for you.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

I don't want to say you get to make yourself whole in it. I don't think that's what's happening, but there is a wholeness in it by the way. Oh, I think writer there is something there that that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

I know absolutely. Um, and of course, there's lots of um that idea of the tortured writer and you know, the tortured artist and this, you know, it yeah, I mean it's it's tricky, but I think you know, I've gone through quite a lot of very tricky stuff. situations in my life and this isn't one of them I have to say and of course you know I've got I was gonna say you know the privilege you know because I can pay for myself and you know I didn't get an advance with that book with my first book so you know I'm effectively you know I'm doing it I'm doing it I'm not being paid to do it I I do think creativity is everybody's birthright you know that is something that we we are naturally inclined to do that as human beings and you know I've had a lot of therapy in my life I've done a lot of work on myself and I feel in a way this is like the culmination of that you know and I'm I'm nervous I'm nervous to see what people say about it because I guess any visibility brings with it the potential people to say what a what a pile of trash that is and yeah you know not everybody it's not for everybody but I'm not for everybody either and that's okay too I think that's been also a very interesting setting up my own practice as a therapist being on Instagram being on Substat you know where people do they come in and they go and my writing isn't for everybody and I'm not for everybody as a person but I know now that that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

You know rejection is you know I have felt very rejected in the past and of course I still do feel that you know I think that's part of the human condition but you know I'm particularly sensitive to that and who knows how I would have felt if they had said no to that proposal I don't know I don't know I think I would I I'd set in my head that I was going to self-publish it and I was quite happy to do that because I felt it was something I had to do it had to be written so yeah it this you know I just said well what's the worst that can happen somebody thinks it's rubbish and blasts it on goodreads or something well I'll have to live with that won't I you know and I like that you talked about practicing visibility earlier because you know my my word of the year is visibility and there is so much about that isn't there about what we make visible to ourselves what people kind of how they diminish our own visibility you know how we make ourselves small like all the different things there's so much that that's captured in that word and actually I wonder because I'm conscious of the time visibility hadn't been one of my words on the list but maybe we will do that one because I find it really fascinating and definitely in midlife and definitely in terms of creativity certainly in terms of emotions.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

So if you were to think about visibility for you now what's your most helpful way of seeing that word do you think I would have said honestly like four years ago that would not have even been in my vocabulary. That would have been something we'd talk about driving conditions you know that eyesight and thought never but yeah it's become yeah something very important and I understand that and the struggles of that and again it's all those those messages isn't it in the conditioning and the idea of like who gets to be visible and who doesn't like who is accept who is an acceptable form of a human being you know um and I think social media can be wonderful and brilliant but you know as we know there's often also that idea of the polished faces and places and you know I'm just certainly not part of that. I'm warts and all and I I embrace that thoroughly because you know like I was saying at the beginning I I think it's a privilege that I still get to be here doing what I do being alive and and living my life like that is such a privilege when there's such a lot of hardship and suffering in the world. What is the worst that could happen to me if somebody says that I'm fat and ugly well that's happened. So what throw it at me because like there's very little you can do to me. So yeah I think it's a political stance I feel is activism actually as well. It's not because oh I it's never been oh because I think I'm so wonderful and I look so good on like I absolutely don't I just think I've got a right to take space up as everybody has you know there's room for everybody and I don't like this idea that that's only available to certain people with certain looks and certain heritage that's rubbish.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

Um that's another part of conditioning that I am I am getting rid of slowly there's no shame in being ourselves whatever that looks like one of my guests the thought that she brought was what's the worst that can happen um she's a wonderful writer called Emma Simpson and so much of hers was turning what's worse that can happen which can feel like relief threat and lots of fear in that and catastrophe and she shifted it because of life experience to mischief. What's the worst that can happen and that a real reframing of that and that it really became expansive and kind of playful and joyful I think seeing visibility that way it takes that threat level down I think.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

Again you know it is all just an experiment isn't it we don't know we can't assume to know what other people are thinking or feeling we take a guess but sometimes that guess is wrong because we're guessing it through our conditioning through the lens of our experiences aren't we so actually we don't know and you know I've done a lot of work on this with clients people feeling that people are looking at them or they're thinking this about them. So I guess it's a bit of me practicing white breach you know the idea we don't know most people are just occupied with like have they got enough potatoes for tea tonight or like you know have they got enough of this that and the other they're not thinking about us in the way that we think they are and of course there are some people but that's up to them isn't it yeah that's my second word for you is assumptions.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

Because so much of I think where we are in this is around what we assume people are thinking feeling believing about us and how we absorb that and it's almost at our core like we know it so intimately and yet so much of it is I believe wrong.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

Yes I when you think about assumptions like what does that oh gosh and I think because we work so on on so many assumptions you know that idea of like reading a book by its cover you know and I think you know we we can be conditioned to be highly judgmental of people and assuming things I and one of the things I do I really love about my children and this is again led me to be much free with this is that nothing is assumed you know let's get detail let's get information you know when I'm asking you you know how does this thing work I'm not I'm don't assume that I know already how that works. I don't take it as being patronizing but also like if you don't have the information about my preferences my likes my dislikes how are you going to really know me and assumptions are often projections of what people think by looking at us you know who they think we are where what we think our background is what our experience is what our education is like all of those things you know even my name you know there was not many Alice's of my age and um even stuff like that people assume you come from a certain background um and there's there's just so so much of that they assume that maybe you know because you're in a bigger body that means you feel XYZ or you don't care about this or whatever it is like we you know and it can be so destructive I think that is one of it's it can be very problematic and I think you know normalizing asking why you know because asking why is one of the things that is drummed out of us you know it's part of childism one of the structures of that patriarchal society is putting you know being against children questioning things and slowly they lose that voice and I think we have to ask why because otherwise we will assume and we can get that very badly wrong and no let's let's ask people let's get the information let's get curious you know curiosity is like a wonderful thing and it is like the antithesis to assumptions isn't it is like being super curious about why is that happening? Why is that person saying that why do they feel that way what are they bringing that that's leading them to that assumption I mean we see it don't we with the rise of you know in in political spheres people easily make assumptions about people and it it can be very destructive and conversations and curiosity are really good way out of that aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 52:42

I have more than five words maybe I've got like 300 in front of me and I think what I'll do instead of going that way because there are so many of them I think what I want to do is go to one word that I think brings a lot of this together and I think it's acceptance and when you think about acceptance in terms of the thought you've bought like I'd rather be whole than good.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

What do you think acceptance now means oh well acceptance yeah that's really what we're all I feel that's the trajectory that's the point of it all really because when we don't accept for many years I I studied Buddhism and you know acceptance like was a big part of that because otherwise there's a tension there if we don't accept things and of course we shouldn't always accept things right because some things need to be questioned and need to not be accepted but I think self-acceptance of who we really are you know that is the real work of that idea of not trying to be a good person but allowing all the facets all the sides of ourselves to be seen and heard and accepting ourselves for that and not punishing ourselves for that. I do love the self-acceptance but yes I also will not accept things that I can see are actively harmful I think that differentiating between those those things but yeah we spend such a lot of our lives like fighting against ourselves. We do it brings such a lot of pain doesn't it because we're trying to get away from that pain and that shame of feeling that something is wrong with us that there's wrong parts of us and of course there are people who do not great things in the world and I'm not saying that's a like a cover all and but even when we've done things that aren't great and we've harmed other people accepting that is something we're all capable of actually it's like the sliding doors kind of moment. We've all got capacity to do great things and we've also got capacity to do really harmful things but denying or pretending that that isn't part of the human condition I don't know I don't want to get to like hopefully I get to a very old age and I am not feeling shame about who I am and that I can say you know I'm this and I'm that I can apologize to my children when I mess up because I accept that I don't get things right all the time and you know I think that's a big part of it is how we show it is that just because we're in some sort of authority figure which naturally being a parent we sort of propelled into that it doesn't mean we can't say we can't accept that we're of course we're gonna get it wrong.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Of course we're not gonna always have the words or behave in a way that we love but if we can accept that we can take ownership of that and then they can accept that too I found that too when I put my hand up and said I've just I didn't deal with that very well.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Yeah they get them then we think they're gonna get it and they get to witness what a whole human being looks like rather than a projected idea of what a good person is. So you know we learn don't we through that that modelling that seeing I mean you know can you imagine? I mean I in my childhood if I'd seen an adult apologize how powerful that would have been to see someone say I messed up there well that wasn't great or sorry I did that but you know we see that again in the the society and systems we live in as such a threat to power to be able to say I'm sorry or I've got it wrong to accept that we're told that diminishes our power somehow and I just think it makes us more powerful of what we're really here to do.

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Agreed. So this thought has stayed with you for decades and has really woven itself through so maybe we can end here which is how do you think you'll continue to hold on to it what's the learning that you think it still has for you I mean because I say it such a lot to be a pope how will it stay with me I don't think it can ever leave me now I haven't written down in various places I think the isn't it to get caught up in the noise of life and to move away from ourselves in terms of getting you know even when we've done lots of work it's very easy to go back to that default position of shaming and blaming ourselves when maybe our resources are low.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Our resources are low we're tired we don't maybe have the support that we need the stress that we can't control coming in we can really forget the things that that ground us and make us feel good and I just think in community that's why I love building community is that you know you you get reminded of that somebody said to me oh do you remember that thing that you say though this morning and I was like oh god that's so great to hear that repeated back to you because you know that's the idea is that if these ideas in these concepts in these phrases and you're amongst you're swimming in that sea people can remind you of that maybe when the chips are down and you're not feeling great. And again I guess that's part of being kind you know that self-kindness is like of course we're we're we are human and we have many parts and sometimes the parts that we don't want to come to the fore are there and we need to listen to why what they're doing and and what's in the background but yeah trying to be good that's yeah it's just not gonna not really gonna get us anywhere that we probably want to be and that doesn't mean being mean being whole because I think generally people are their intentions are great you know we live in people are awesome and I don't think anybody sets out to be mean.

SPEAKER_01 58:58

One of the things that we know don't we when we repress parts of ourselves they pop up and they pop up in really dysfunctional harmful ways often that acceptance of being whole all the sides all the shapes all the colours I think the world would be a much better place if we could all think about that concept a little bit yeah and I think what I love about what you just said is that we help each other think about that concept too because ideas like we live them out we keep them we hold on to them and sometimes people remind us of them and they reflect them back to us and they mirror them and so they are in a relationship too. Yes and I really like that. And I'm so grateful for what you bought today and you're spending your time with us and you're sharing so much your practice I'm very excited for your book. I will be pre-ordering it I hope everybody that listens pre-orders it so thank you so much for being here at this time wonderful I felt very emotional at times it's lovely to talk to you I love the way you ask things it's really great yeah thank you you're welcome so I will leave you with a question that I ask my listeners every week which is whether the thought that Alice brought today from Carl Young I'd rather be whole than good is one that you keep, forget or maybe even share. If you enjoyed this conversation and if something resonated with you I think you'd really love spending some time with Alice's work. Including her Substack, her podcast, her coaching and community and her upcoming book I Need My Space, but I like you too you can find details about all of those in the show notes. You can also join me over on my Substack which is More Good Days and there you can join the conversation about how you found this episode, what this week's thought means to you and generally find more company for finding your way to well in an often overwhelming and confusing and sometimes even dispiriting world. I also have a new book out it's a well being journal called If Lost Dere. I'm very excited about it. I co-created it with my business partner, my best friend and a really talented illustrator Amanda Shearin is out now it's a 200 page guidebook stroke journal really for anyone who is wanting to explore a kinder more compassionate and more sustainable maybe even a messier approach to wellbeing. You can find details about that in the show notes too. This episode this podcast is hosted by me Claire Fitzsimmons and it really is made possible by you listening by me seeing the audience tick up every week which is has been such a delight. I'm hugely grateful to all the support that I've had making these all the people that have said yes to being on the show and all the feedback that I've been getting about what these episodes have come to mean to you that really means a lot to me so thank you. Until next Monday do take care of yourself and I'll be back with another thought that one of my guests has kept and maybe you want to too or maybe not let's find out see you next Monday bye for now