"Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New" — Sadia Ghazanfar

What if confidence isn't where we begin? What if courage comes first?

This week on A Thought I Kept, I'm joined by women's leadership and career development coach Sadia Ghazanfar, founder of Slay Your Dragons, to explore the thought she has carried with her for years:

"Be brave enough to suck at something new."

Together we unpack why so many of us wait to feel confident before we start, how perfectionism keeps us stuck, and why learning, making mistakes and asking for help might be the very things that help us grow.

We talk about what happens when we're overwhelmed, burnt out or at capacity, why women often struggle to express anger, and how courage, rather than confidence, can become the foundation for meaningful change. Sadia also shares her own experience of burnout, career change and learning to stop carrying everything alone.

Whether you're navigating a career transition, feeling held back by self-doubt, experiencing imposter syndrome, or simply wondering if it's too late to try something new, I hope this conversation offers a compassionate reminder that confidence is something we build—not something we need before we begin.

In this episode we explore:

• Perfectionism and the pressure to get everything right
• Confidence vs courage: what really comes first
• Burnout, overwhelm and emotional capacity
• Women in leadership and navigating uncertainty
• Why asking for help is an act of courage
• Emotions, self-compassion and learning to begin again
• How to stop waiting until you feel ready

About Sadia Ghazanfar

Sadia Ghazanfar helps women in leadership stop abandoning themselves to lead others.

She is the founder of Slay Your Dragons and a PCC-accredited coach (ICF) and Certified Positive Intelligence® Coach. She came to this work the way many of her clients do: leading others while forgetting herself, navigating workplaces not built with her in mind, unable to see the conditioning that was causing her pain. Burnout forced her to stop, and what she found on the other side became the work. 

Sadia doesn't teach women to be more confident or palatable. She works with what's underneath; the conditioning that runs so quietly most women mistake it for their personality. Her work doesn't add more to a woman's experience, it removes what was never hers to carry. She believes courage comes before confidence, and that when a woman changes, nothing around her stays the same.

Website | LinkedIn | Instagram | Substack 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of A Thought I Kept, a weekly podcast about the ideas that stay. I'm your host, Claire Fitzsimmons. I'm a well-beaked writer and coach and the co-founder of If Lost Dot Here. And I started this podcast because we live in a world full of advice and noise and things that we're told we should be doing, should be feeling, should be thinking. And I'm much more interested in what actually stays with us, what we do keep, and why. Each week I ask my guests a simple question: what's a thought you've kept? And my guest this week brings something that I think can really help us with this sense of perfectionism and polished lives and performing ourselves. Today I'm talking with Sadia Hazenfar, a women's leadership and career development coach, a mentor, and the founder of Slay Your Dragons. I found this conversation really freeing. It offers us a space for possibility that might not exist in our lives anymore. And the promise of just trying. Let's find out. Hi Sadia, welcome to A Thought I Kept. Hi, Claire, and thank you so much for having me. How are you arriving at our conversation today?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

I am arriving with a full belly, which is good because I was going to go to a dance class beforehand, and then I realized eating after the podcast is not a great idea. Let's make sure we eat before, otherwise, Claire's gonna get a very hangry sadier. So yeah, I'm arriving content, full, and happy.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Oh, that's a great place to be. And I love that you did that for yourself. What you could have done is pushed through, gone to the dance class, rushed in here, been a little bit like, oh, like like in that sort of fizzy energy that doesn't quite sit well. But actually, you're aware of what was coming up and you resourced yourself. Does that come naturally to you? Is that something that you find yourself doing?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

No, it does not come naturally to me. It's something that I have to actively practice and work out every day.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Do you know what those tension points would be for you? Do you see them coming up, those moments in the day that you're like, oh, I have to get ahead of that for myself?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

There are ebbs and flows to it. There are certain things where it could be work-related, but then there are also things that are life-related. And it's often when I'm really excited about stuff, or when I'm excited, I want to do everything. Yeah, the excitement and enthusiasm to want to do lots of things and then forgetting about some of my basic needs.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

So I started this podcast because I was really interested in out of all the ideas around well-being and what can help us feel better, what can help us be a person, what can help us get through our lives. There are so many ideas right now. There's so much overwhelm. There's also maybe some excitement in that, maybe some exhaustion in that. I was really interested, or am really interested, in what does stay with us out of everything. What's the one idea that we do keep? And that's the question that I ask my guests every week that I would really love to hear what it is that you have kept.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

So this was an interesting exploration. When you shared this with me, I was like, oh, what's gonna be my what's gonna be my thought? You know, you're racking your brains thinking, what could I share? It's gonna be something amazing and something profound. And then it was like, does it have to be something amazing and profound? Let's just kind of pause. Um, and I was having a conversation with my sister the other day, and I was like, Oh, maybe it's the Rumi quote, because there are so many incredible roomy quotes, right? And there was this one particular Rumi quote that I've been sitting with for a while, which was which is I'm gonna butcher it now, I'm gonna try and paraphrase. It was, it goes something like, Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world, and today I am wise, so I'm changing myself. So I thought maybe it's this, this thought, and then yesterday it changed. I was like, No, that's not the one. It's actually be brave enough to suck at something new. Who does that come from? I don't know, but that is the thought. I was like, that's the one. I remember just kind of, I think I was going through my Instagram profile as well, and it was one of the early quotes or phrases that I shared, and I was like, oh my god, that is the thought that has stayed with me in so many different ways and so many different points in my life, different areas of my life. And actually, that's the one that I'm gonna share with Claire today. So, yeah, be brave enough to suck at something new.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Oh, there's so much to that, isn't there? I'm very grateful that you also brought a Rumi quote. I love that too. I think that's wonderful. We might maybe sneak that one in later. Let's see. Okay, so why this one? What about this one resonates with you the most?

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Oh, there's so much. Where can I begin? Be brave enough to suck at something new. I think for a lot of us, myself included, we want to be good at stuff. We want to show up polished and like we've got everything figured out and that you know everything sorted, and yeah, just basically that polished version. And I think this reminds me that you don't need to be. You can give yourself permission to just try something, and through the process of trying, you learn a lot about yourself, you learn a lot about the thing. There's this whole, there's this beauty in the process of learning as well, when you're when you don't know something and you're stepping into the unknown, something new. It also requires courage, like real courage, to venture into the unknown, to start doing something unfamiliar. It's also held me through a lot just remembering this phrase like be brave enough to suck at something new. It's okay. You know, when I've had career pivots, when my husband and I refurbished our own home. I had never done that before, and I sucked. But I tried it. There was a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, but I gave it a go. You could probably see a bass guitar behind me, right? That is something that I'm brave enough to practice at the moment. I'm not very good, I'm still learning, but the whole process is helping me understand myself in different ways and my relationship with learning and especially as an adult, because I think when you're young, you're always learning something, right? But as you get older, we can start to get set in our ways a little bit and become the expert in an in a certain area, and then we don't allow ourselves to be brave enough to suck at something new. So yeah, it's it's it's helping me in lots of different areas in my life currently and also has done in the past.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

I really like this something when you said, I suck at this, this idea of it's so hard to admit that to ourselves. Like this moment of saying to ourselves, I'm really bad at this. Because sometimes we hear that and then we hit the wall. And we don't go any further than that. We're like, okay, this is something new to me. I'm trying it, I'm deeply uncomfortable. I'm also really bad at it. I'm gonna pull back because this doesn't feel good to me. How have you found that you can go through the wall and keep going and be like, okay, I'm bad at this, and I do want to be good at this, and I'm gonna get through that icky, uncomfortable moment of sucking at something?

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Oh yeah, there's a few ways. I think the the most important one for me has been self-compassion and actually just speaking to myself kindly, encouraging myself, almost imagining myself as a small child and just giving myself that nurturing, encouraging voice to say, Hey, it's okay, right? You know, you've only just started to learn this, and you won't have it all figured out right now, but you're trying. Oh, look at you go. Wow, you've just learned another, I don't know, another note on the bass, and you're now doing this, and you couldn't even read music before. That's so cool. So just kind of compassion and encouragement, I think, is really important. Also, the people that you surround yourselves with, I think, are key. There have been times in my life where I've been surrounded by perhaps not the right environment or culture to suck at something new, and that can really drag you down. But if you're around the right supportive group of people that uplift you and encourage you and support you, then it's not so bad at sucking at something new, right? You feel really held and supported through it, and you know that it's part of the process, it's part of life. And I think once you've been through it in one or two areas of life or work, then it's okay to apply the same lessons in other areas as well.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

I think we often we see that learning as a series of fail failures. Like we see it's failing, or we can judge others for failing because they're sucking, or we judge ourselves for that. And I really like there sounds like in something that you're saying, there's something of of play and expansiveness, and that series of learnings isn't a series of failures, it's a series of I don't know, something about curiosity, something about play, something else. What is it that you like about that feeling? Because it seems like there's something in that for you.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Absolutely. And as you were saying, Matt, I could just sense like excitement bubbling up inside of me. I think it's because the field of possibility and the field of like probability is just open, right? Anything could happen. That excites me. You don't know where it's gonna take you. You could start to do something. I mean, even if I look at my career, I knew I wanted to change, but there's no way of knowing then what I know now and where I am now. It just opened up this field of possibility, and it led me to somewhere that I could never have imagined. That's exciting.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Okay, for someone who's thinking about this and they're in that stuck place, that very familiar, like maybe you had this in your previous career. So you were in a different kind of job, a slightly different field, and there's maybe that sense of something else, stuckness. How did you get yourself out of that place into the that kind of field of bravery in a sense?

SPEAKER_00 11:20

How did I get myself out by shifting what I was doing, so allowing new things in? So reading, perhaps seeking out books or information on something that I was curious about, something that I wanted to learn about. That was one way I explored it, having conversations with people as well. Again, that requires a level of bravery, right? Putting yourself out there, sharing. Hey, I'm feeling kind of stuck right now, or I'm not enjoying where I'm at right now. You look like you're having a great time doing what you're doing. Tell me, how did you get here? You know, just opening up those conversations with other people. I think that does require a lot of bravery to just share quite vulnerably where you're at and what you are perhaps seeing in somebody else that you would like more of for yourself and opening up that conversation. What else helped? Yeah, conversations with other people, reading about things, talking about things, and seeking help, then it's actually okay to get help. I think I used to really pride myself on being able to figure things out all by myself, DIY kind of gal. I can figure it out. I'm super independent. I'm the first of five children, daughter of an immigrant as well. So it's very much, you know, a lot of responsibility on my shoulders from a young age. And it was just who I was, how I showed up. So whenever there was a point in my life where I was stuck or something wasn't the way I wanted it to be, I was just like, yeah, I'll sort this out, I can figure this out, I'll just push harder and I'll just, you know, I'll keep trying, I'll keep pushing. But there came a point where I actually became quite ill from all the pushing, and I needed to seek help, and that moment of courage, again, it was a brave step for me, right? Because I needed to try a different approach, and I allowed somebody else to help me. I sought some help and it really shifted things for me personally.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

It's such a hard stage, isn't it, to ask for help. So many of us have that need to keep going and silently, like kind of hidden away, trying to figure out the thing and asking for help. Sometimes we can see that as failure to cope, weakness, something about there's something that we're getting wrong rather than getting right. Like, and there is a real courage and bravery in asking for help. It's really it can be hard for people to do that. How you found that? Because your work is all about helping people. Your work is so much about support and being there with somebody and alongside somebody as they go through periods. Do you find that sometimes people arrive with you and that first moment of saying, I need help, is the difficult moment, is the brave thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

It's so interesting because I think a lot of women don't necessarily arrive saying those words. It's almost as if there's something happening that's a challenge, or they want something to be different, and they don't quite have the words for it yet. They're not really that clear on it yet, and it's through our conversation that they start to gain that clarity and they start to realise oh, I don't have to do this alone. I can actually, you know, move forward towards the thing that I want with somebody beside me, and I can actually enjoy the process as well. There's almost like an unburdening that happens just by being in the room with me. Because I think a lot of the time, Claire, I don't know if you have this, but women can not really name the thing. It's so unconscious and it's so invisible to them that you know, through our work we can probably see some of the patterns, but to a lot of us or to a lot of the women arriving in the session, they can't. And a lot of the work is to just gently unravel and illuminate what's happening beneath the surface. In a strange way, they don't have to outwardly ask for help, but the fact that they're present there in the room, that is them saying, Hey, I do need help.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Yeah, there's a thing that brings somebody to you, and there's a thing that shows up while they're with you. And sometimes they imagine they can be slightly different things.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

And the thing that they really need support with presents itself. Are you finding that the things that you're working on have shifted? Like the things that women are coming to you with have shifted? Because we say this again and again, and it's become a kind of a cliche, but times are moving so fast, and we have this cluster of circumstances, world experiences, collective angst that are coming in. And I'm just wondering whether you're seeing that coming into the room where you hold space for people, you're seeing more anxiety, more burnout, more disconnection, like whether things have actually shifted in what you're seeing that we're bringing as women.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Absolutely. Yeah. I think earlier on there was a lot of imposter syndrome and confidence as the presenting thing that women were coming with. But now, as time's gone on, and like you said, the level of change and how rapidly things are changing, it's now more around how to help them build capacity to navigate the uncertainty and the changes and the shifts that are happening. So there's a lot of that, but then there's also the emotional side, right? So a lot of us, you know, I hold my hand up here as well. We haven't really been taught how to navigate emotions in ourselves or with others. So part of that capacity building is also, you know, there are a lot of people that I manage or lead or look after that are bringing all this stuff, and I don't know how to be with it. So yeah, there's a lot around emotions are uncertain, human beings are unpredictable, right? So, how can how can we be present in ourselves but also be present with others as they bring all these myriad of emotions and feelings and life experiences? I'm noticing as well. I don't know if this is if this is one of those things that when you're going through something, then you're also presented with similar things with your clients. So, you know, for quite some time I was doing a lot of caregiving for my younger sister, and then I started to notice that I was attracting a lot of people that were also navigating, you know, being a leader or or working, you know, in corporate, as well as balancing that with caregiving responsibilities at home. So that was quite interesting as well, and just seeing and supporting them through that. Like, how can I make sure that I'm fully cared for and my cup is chopped up whilst I'm also caring for somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Yeah, that's so difficult, isn't it? My dad cared for my mum for a very long time, and there's so much in that, isn't there, about so many emotions and so little space in a sense to process that. There's a real sense of keeping going, keeping it together. Keeping it together is such a huge one, making it all work somehow. And the last person on the list is the caregiver. The last person that gets their needs met is the caregiver. And there's all these these feelings and thoughts that don't really get processed. And it's not possible to sustain that. There isn't a way to keep going without that being acknowledged somehow. So when you work with somebody who is a caregiver, like how do you help them acknowledge their own needs without that sense of guilt, maybe?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Just first of all, being present with them in that space so that they have a safe space where they can share very bravely and openly what they're feeling in itself is so powerful just to be witnessed and to be seen and heard in what you're holding, because oftentimes for them there isn't that space or outlet for them to share how they're feeling. So I think that in itself is incredibly powerful, like being able to sit with them and hear them. And oftentimes just that process of being given the space to share can just start to shift the energy for them. I'm so grateful that you use the word capacity.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

And I say this as somebody that didn't really understand that word until a few years ago. I wouldn't have ever thought about my emotional capacity, I wouldn't have thought I would maybe I would have thought about physical health. I probably wouldn't have thought about capacity in that sense either. That wouldn't be a term that I would use. And now I find that I think about it maybe because of what we do, but I think about it all the time, like being at capacity and what that means. And overwhelm is something that I see again and again and again. And this idea that if we acknowledge that we're at capacity, the house of cards is gonna fall down. And there is this sense of like we'll keep holding it together, and there's nothing to see here. So, how do you help somebody come to terms with the fact that there is a capacity issue here? There is we can only hold so much, and to then build capacity in areas of their lives so that they do feel resourced and that they can be in their lives in a way that feels better.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

First of all, it's about kind of really seeing what's happening, right? I think as women, there's a lot of invisible labour, there's a lot of invisible things that if you can't see them, then you don't really know how to be able to move through it or move past it. So a lot of it is just being able to see it, first of all, make the unconscious conscious. And once we can start to see things, then you can start to decide well, where do I want to put my energy and where do I want to pull back my energy? So that's the kind of process that I would take them through. Just first really seeing what is there, what's present, and what's meaningful. To them, you know, what are some of their core values and how they want to show up, and allow that to guide where they distribute the energy and where maybe they pull back on where their energy is going and perhaps it's not serving them. A lot of the times though, Claire, it's often the energy that's being expended by the overthinking and the rumination. And so that's some of the invisible stuff, right? And actually being in the session, like giving them a time and a space to think and explore and reflect, helps shift that massively. And once that shifts, then it just you know, then they have a process and a way of moving through those thoughts and emotions so that they don't start to take up and use so much energy, and then that energy can be put into the things that actually matter to them and that are meaningful to them.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Have you found a moment when you were at capacity?

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Many times, yeah. Oh gosh, so many times. There was a time when I was burnt out, I was doing way too much. You know, I decided to pivot my career then. I was in an operational leadership role, and then I moved into a learning and development role for the global arm of the company. So it was a complete shift. I also decided at the time to invest in coaching, learning to be a coach. So, you know, that requires a lot of extra study time on top of working full-time in a new career, like a career field. And then around that time, I was also renovating and like refurbishing our home. My husband and I, we didn't have any external tradespeople. We had one gas engineer come in because you know, by law we needed that, but the rest of it we did ourselves. So knocking down walls, putting acro props in, running channels through the concrete floors, like crazy stuff, things that I have never done before and I never wish to do again. That's a very important learning piece. Absolutely. So it's all these three things happening simultaneously, and I was that's when I was burnt out. I felt like I was having a nervous breakdown, and it was it was a really terrifying experience, actually, when I think back, and that was back in 2017, 2018, so that's almost what seven, eight years ago. Yeah, I was at capacity and I didn't have the awareness back then that I have now that there was a different way to navigate that, that I didn't have to do it in that way, and I think that's why I also do the work that I do, because you know, there were so many moments when I'd be in the office kind of crying, or I was just dealing with these really challenging situations at work, mainly at work, and I didn't have a safe space to go to, to unload, to unburden, to share and to navigate that. It never really felt safe to talk to people at work because of the various power dynamics that were at play, and also, you know, there's that fear of if I divulge or share this, it might affect or impact my career progression. So you I suffered in silence and just kind of kept pushing through that independent, fiercely independent woman. I'll figure it out, I'll just keep pushing, pushing, to the point that I could no longer push because my body was just saying, game over, no, you know, I could push through mentally and emotionally, but physically my body was just it wasn't having any of it. So that was a real turning point for me. And it also led to this work. It was like the way I'm feeling, the things that I'm navigating, I don't actually want another woman to have to experience this by herself in the workplace. And how can I be part of that change? How can I do something that will support women so that they have a space where they can, you know, just unburden, share what's coming up for them. You know, sometimes some of them joke and they say, Oh, this is like workplace counseling or workplace therapy, you know, like in a in a coaching session, because they are allowed to share their emotions here. Like that's something that I do really pride myself on is that no emotions are off the cards, that you can bring all of yourself, and we will explore that together as best I can, right? And if other support is needed, then there'll be signposted. But a lot of the times I think people are afraid of emotions, and what I'm trying to say is I'm not.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah. And I think that's a surprise to people sometimes that all emotions are welcome. And there can be there are so many assumptions around what we're allowed to feel in which situations with which people this is what I found anyway. There can be so few spaces for really feeling what we're feeling that when you finally give someone the space to do that, like in your session, it can be a real surprise to someone that's okay. And yet fundamentally that's the thing that is okay, and so much of the learning can be about accepting an emotional experience as valid, and their emotional experience as valid. And do you find that there are certain emotions that the people that you work with struggle with the most?

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Yeah. Anger, I would say, with women, it's like they don't allow themselves to be angry and it's pushed and suppressed. That's what I've been finding. Other emotions tend to come up, you know, like resentment, sadness. Anger is the one that I find that they find difficult to access.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Yeah, there's so much anger that isn't there, and like sometimes it feels like almost sadness or frustration are the more acceptable presentations of anger. And that's when we start turning inwards, isn't it? When we start we burst into tears because we're so frustrated, but really we're always really furious with someone. Um and there is something about that makes me think about the people-pleasing part of this. Because anger doesn't sit with people pleasing, anger is not something that should be showing up there. And if you're somebody that really struggles with anger, what's something that can make it feel more acceptable? Good question.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

What can make anger feel more acceptable? Do you know what I don't actually know? I think sometimes maybe even movement and using different modalities to allow it to come out, right? Like listening to, I don't know, Rage Against the Machine or some really angry music to just embody that feeling of anger. There was, I can't remember what book I was reading, but there was this incredible book I read a little while ago because I think I was having trouble accessing my own anger as well. And she talks about, I'll have to, I'll have to look it up afterwards and send it to you, but she talked about something called swamping, where you allow yourself to just embody some of these like undesirable emotions, right? Like anger or whatever it might be. So in this case, anger, and you you actually get a black bin bag and you put a hole through it, and you put your head through it, and put your arms through it, and you wear this black bin bag and you swamp, which is basically you're just really feeling the music. So it could be like just a playlist made of angry tunes, and you just let it out, and even getting a pillow and just screaming into the pillow, doing whatever you need to, but really embodying that emotion almost in a kind of funny, dramatic theatrical way as well, but really kind of moved through it. And I thought that was fantastic, and I remember trying it, and I was like, this is hilarious! If only somebody else could see me right now, like we're laughing, right? Instantly, that anger just kind of dissipated as well. I was like, Oh wow, okay, yeah, yeah, it's funny.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

I think my early Halloween costumes were swamping. I think that's what my mum made for me in the 80s. But there is something due to that, which is the bodily experience of emotion, isn't it? Like that that we are very like, you know, we're very like shouldered up, right? We think like I think I feel angry, but you wouldn't experience anger. I think I feel sad, maybe. So a lot of it's going on cognitively, that's our experience of emotion. And there's something as you're sharing that that reminder that it's really visceral, like it's really an aborties, and they're really felt sensations. But what we can do, particularly when we're at capacity, we can numb. We can get to the point of like we're so overwhelmed that we can't feel anything else, otherwise, we're just gonna be totally flooded and totally overwhelmed. And some people struggle with the feelings, the bodily sensations of emotions, and that's the thing that they're avoiding. And I liked how that what you're doing there is saying this is a space just to get used to a feeling of anger and it being okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Yeah, and to play, to play with it, just have a bit of a laugh. And I think once it's once the anger has had space to be acknowledged, it often then moves on to something else, right? It can linger longer when we don't actually acknowledge it and we don't make space and time for it.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Your work is really interesting, I think, around another emotion that we have some assumptions around, and that's confidence. And this kind of speaks as well to what you brought today, which is about bravery, in a sense, which is courage. What have you found about confidence versus courage? Because as women, we're often told to be confident, you know, the way that we're supposed to show up in the world, and maybe this is why we suppress our emotions and we reach for perfectionism and we try to please, is because we're supposed to be confident now. But actually, there's something about courage that you've shared before. What does courage do for you? Like why courage, not confidence for you sometimes?

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Confidence, I believe, is the result, right? Once you do the thing, once you're brave or courageous enough to start something, over time, you build your competence in that thing. And then because your competence has grown, you're gonna feel confident. But confident is not the starting point, it's the result. And oftentimes I I actually found myself, you know, in the last few years getting quite frustrated when women would turn up to sessions going, I just need more confidence, I just need more confidence. And you know, when we sat with that and we really explored it, it was like actually that's what's going to come after you've taken the action and done the thing, right? And what's getting in the way of you trying the thing. So courage for me comes first, confidence follows.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Yes, which is your thought that you've brought in a sense, because if you're brave enough and you suck for a while, you're not showing up with confidence at the beginning, but you're learning it and you're maybe mastering something if you get good enough at the guitar. One day you'll be fully confident. But yeah, be for my ears only. Okay, let's go to I'm gonna try these five words with you. Okay. And just see what comes up for you, because I do think so much of how we think about how we maybe change ourselves or maybe change the world. Your rooming quote is tied to the kind of the words we use and how we approach them sometimes. And there are some words I'm really curious about what you would what you would think about them now, given your experience and your practice. And the first word, and this might be a word that you've alluded to earlier with this be brave enough to suck at something new, which is perfectionism. And I want to make sure I do talk about perfectionism with you. What have you come to understand about perfectionism?

SPEAKER_00 34:20

I've come to understand that it isn't the individual, it's a behavior, it's a behavior pattern that is no longer perhaps serving them, and it can be changed. Because what I found in myself many years ago, and I still hear in women when they show up, they say, I'm a perfectionist. It's like, no, you're not, it's a behavior that you do repeatedly, but it's not you, it's not the essence of you. So for me, it's about separating the do and the who. You are not the perfectionist, it's just a behavior that served you at one point in your life, and now it might actually be hindering you in some way. And in some areas, perfectionist, you know, that need for excellence is great, but that perfectionist label can be quite limiting. And what I've come to learn is yeah, just separating it from the person, and that it's a behavior that can be changed.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Was there a time in your life that you identified or maybe over-identified with that label?

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Yeah, I think it still shows up for me sometimes. So at the moment, I've been writing, and I've always said, Oh, I'm not a writer. You know, you have those internal kind of dialogue going on, and I find writing difficult, and then have to remind myself, okay, you're being brave enough to suck at something new, keep going, you're learning something new, it's not gonna be great. And I think it for me, it's that that the difference between where I am, like the reality of where I am, and where I want to be. Yes, that's where the perfectionist is. There's a massive gap, and that's where that perfectionist kind of tendencies start to show up for me, and it's like actually, let's chill out a little bit, let's be kind to ourselves. We've just starting this, right? That we're learning something new, and it's gonna be a bit messy and a bit scrappy and very uncomfortable. But the more you practice and you dedicate time to practice building this, this this skill, you will be happy by the end result, right? You'll be much happier at thinking, right? I tried this, and that's where I started, and this is where I am, which is different. And it's also evidence and proof to myself, oh, if I apply myself and I keep going with it, I can actually improve.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Which actually beautifully dovetails to my next word, which is optimization. And optimization is a double-edged sword. This is what I find. And there's something about improvement and learning that feels exciting, and there could be something in optimization that feels like a trap. How have you come to experience this idea about optimization?

SPEAKER_00 37:10

As I hear that word, every fibre of my being is going, oh I have a visceral like dislike of that word optimization. It kind of reminds me of machinery and computers and just technology and not humans. So I yeah, I have a rejection towards that word optimization.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

But it's I have the same, and it's so funny that it's come into this well-being space. It's so curious that this space that's all about literally fundamentally, but I don't know, how to feel better, right? How to just be okay is now so much about optimization. That is something about measuring and this form of striving that can feel never enough.

unknown 37:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Never enough just constantly going for the next thing, climbing, climbing, and then you're back on that hamster wheel of that never enoughness. And I reject all of that. Actually, what you said, how you can be better or feel better, that's much kinder, more open, and actually more human. Whereas when I hear the word optimization, it doesn't feel human, it feels like machinery or technology or yeah, something different, not connecting to a human being.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

And there's something about something I like about well-being sometimes, and also about emotions, actually, if we think about that, is the connection piece. Ultimately, what they're about is how we relate, how we show up with one another. And it's almost like again, your Rumi quote, there's something about changing the world and ourselves, and there's the I and the we, and there's a sense of ourselves in that, and there's a sense of the others in that. And when we think about optimizations, it's so solitary. There's something that's only the I sometimes, without judgment, of course, but yeah, there's that piece too.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah, I feel that, and actually, we need that relate the relational dynamics for us to grow as humans. Yeah, it's imperative.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Okay, what about this one then? What about leadership? Because I'm curious about particularly women in leadership roles, and what does leadership mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 39:26

There's so many ways I could answer this question. I think at its core, first of all, it's how we lead ourselves, right? So how we are leading ourselves in different ways, like physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and then from that place, then that ripples out, and we are able to have the capacity then to lead others, and that can be in a variety of ways. So oftentimes women come to me and they're like, Oh, I'm not a leader because I don't have leadership in my title or whatever. But I would argue we're all leaders because we are all leading ourselves, we are leading perhaps families, we're leaders in our community in some capacity in our team. We don't have to have the title leader in order to lead. And I think the more women recognize that they are leaders, the more they'll realize how much power and influence they actually have in shaping the world around them. Because I think how we lead ourselves ultimately then starts to shift and shape and change the culture around us as well.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Yeah, and the word itself, that leadership word, if it's seen in a sort of very traditional way, that can be the thing that we back away from rather than the thing we go towards. And I love your refrain because what it does, it almost softens that word, doesn't it, and makes it accessible to everybody. As it should be. Yeah. Okay, what about this one then? So I wanted to bring in pausing. And my sense of you is that, and tell me if I'm not right about this. My sense of you is that you're somebody that does appreciate the pause, a pause, whether that's a pause to think or a moment to reset, and that you see the power in that. Do you is that a fair assumption of you? Yeah, yeah, very fair.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

I think if you had met me 10 years ago, probably not. But now, yeah, absolutely. I think the pause is so powerful. Did somebody say something like the pregnant pause, right? There's that possibility in a pause. And I was so used to back in the day always kind of filling the pause, like doing, doing, doing, that there was no space for pause. And actually, now stepping back and allowing more space for pauses just again takes you into that field of possibilities. Like so many things can happen that I would never have envisaged, and that's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Okay, my last word for you is one that I really like, and I think you must because it's the title of your company. Dragons. Sadia, what's going on with dragons? Why dragons?

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Why dragons? Because I love mythology, storytelling, metaphors, right? And the dragon personifies or embodies the thing in all of us that we have to be careful what we're feeding inside of us, right? It could be that inner voice that's kind of limiting us, or it could be the voice that is allowing us to step into the field of possibility. And that the dragon for me represents part of the human condition that we all have this thing inside of us that can hold us back, that can limit us. And by being aware of those dragons, then we can start to move towards something more freeing, more liberating, and more limitless.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Do you think we ever befriend our dragons, or do you think we just slay them?

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Befriend. So I think slay here, you know, slay your dragons can be read in a certain way, but for me it's about befriending. It's almost like putting the arm around the dragon, like, come on, I know you're there, but you're not the big dragon anymore, you're the small dragon, and I'm in control. Come on, let's move through this together. So that for me is pretty much what slay your dragons is about, and having a guide to do that journey with you. And I hope that that's the role that I play, that supportive guide that partners with people so that they don't have to look at their dragons alone.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Yeah, I think we all have our dragons, don't we? Those kind of saboteurs that live with us and alongside us, and that there is something about getting to know them that just feels so important. Okay, so we go back to your thought that be brave enough to suck at something new. What's something that you feel brave enough now to suck at? Other than guitar? Because I'm very admirable. I would love to learn the guitar too. I think that's very cool. But other than the guitar. What's something else that you'd be brave enough to suck at, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 44:20

So writing was one that I was talking about because that's very fresh right now for me. I'm really in it. But I'm not going to choose that. I'm going to choose talking out loud to people and you know at conferences or getting on stage and running certain things. That is something that I'm brave to suck at. Because there was a time when I really sucked at that. And there was a time when the perfectionist kind of dragon was really loud. And now it's like, hey, this is me. I'm just going to show up as myself. I don't need to overprepare. I don't need to do anything else. All I need to do is just be here as myself with other humans. And that is enough.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

That's such a great one because I think I met you, or I think I saw you for the first time when you gave a conference talk about inner mentors in bath. And I definitely did not have the sense of you sucking. I had the sense of this is somebody that I want to know and spend time with. So you're being brave enough worked for you in that sense. I don't know what that journey looked like to get you to that stage. I don't know what was behind the scenes, but you felt very confident being on that stage.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Well, thank you, because there was a time when I was in corporate where I froze at a conference and I was put on the spot and I couldn't answer the question. And I was just like, oh God, and nobody helped me. And it was one of the worst experiences at that time. And I remember just ruminating about it for months, thinking, I never want to feel like that again. I need to practice building the skill set of talking to people or being at a conference and being put on the spot or you know, having a conversation with someone and being able to just talk off the cuff and even say, I don't know. And it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Yes. And there's a power in saying, I don't know, isn't there? Rather than fumbling through and making something up in the spot and feeling deeply uncomfortable. Going forwards, how would you like to hold on to your thought? Like, how would you do that, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 46:25

I think just it's always there. It's yeah, it's always there because I think as a person, I'm always doing something new. And also when you have your own business and the world is changing and things are always moving and shifting, you need to be able to adapt. I think. So yeah, it's always going to be there and it's always going to hold me and support me in whatever the future holds and whatever steps I'm taking.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Oh, thank you, Sadie. I get a real sense of I can feel the real possibility just being with you today as somebody who often thinks about things like overwhelm and burned out and disconnection and all these things and emotions and da-da. There's a real sense that I have coming away from talking to you of trying, being exciting, and learning, being freeing, and expressing our emotions, being connecting. There's so much possibility there. So thank you so so much for joining us. Thank you for sharing this thought that I think would help so many people. And thank you for being in conversation and being asked new questions in new formats in new ways. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

Thank you so much, Claire. It's been an absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

We talked after the recording had finished about the pressure to be good at something, the pressure to master, to be perfect. We see everybody's outcomes. We see the experts, we see the polished performers, we see the successful creatives, the successful entrepreneurs, we see all those shiny, happy lives and accomplishments. And we can get so turned around because we think that's all that there is. Being excellent, being perfect, being more than good enough. And there is something in what Zadia, I think, shared today that is a form of relief. That we get to be bad at something too. We get to just try. We get to try for a moment and see what happens. See if something works for us, see if we might want to get better. And if we don't, that's okay too. So I'm curious about whether you will hold on to Sadia's thought. Be brave enough to suck at something new. Is it something that you already have thoughts about that you're thinking, nope, that's not for me. I can't possibly keep that one. Or is it something that you really need to hold on to because there is something that you want to try. There is something that is out there for you. And you may have some inkling that one day you might be really, really good at it, even if right now you might not. In the spirit of sucking at something new, these conversations are now available as video episodes. And for now they are for subscribers only, paying subscribers only, over on my substat Morga Days. As I get better at these, maybe at some point they'll be on YouTube and you'll be able to watch these. But right now, they are at More Good Days, and I really love making these shows. I think there is something in the intimacy of watching them and seeing the person that's speaking to you that you might enjoy. So let's see if that's something that you enjoy too, and let's see where that we go with that. If there's something in the conversation today that came up for you about self-belief, self-worth, self-doubt, any of the selves. I've put information about how to work with Sadia in the notes below. And you can also come over to if loss. Thank you as always for being here. We are not even a year old yet. And already I have learned so much about hosting and asking questions and creating this space and editing and producing. So if this is a testament to start something new, to be brave enough, even though at the beginning you might suck at it, then there we go. I will see you next Monday for another thought that one of my guests has kept, and you might want to as well. Okay, bye for now.