Behind the Badge: A Sheriff's Captain Reflects on Leadership, Ethics & Major Investigations

Educational Content Notice: This program is intended for educational, historical, and public safety purposes.  Discussions involving crime, violence, law enforcement, and trauma are presented to educate, promote prevention, and encourage informed public discussion.  Criminal activity and violence are not promoted or glorified.  

Retired San Diego Sheriff’s Captain shares an extraordinary career spanning patrol, homicide investigations, Internal Affairs, academy leadership, and critical incident response. In this episode, he recounts the little-known story of how the Sheriff’s Department established its own academy at Southwestern College, reflects on complex investigations that tested integrity and perseverance, and discusses leadership lessons learned from decades of public service.

The conversation also explores the realities of homicide investigations, ethical accountability within law enforcement, responding to the Santana High School tragedy, and the importance of separating facts from public perception. 

Whether you’re in law enforcement, interested in criminal investigations, or passionate about leadership and accountability, this episode offers valuable insight from someone who spent a lifetime serving the community.

🎯 Whether you're a first responder, military, or someone interested in becoming a law enforcement officer—this conversation will move you, challenge you, and inspire you.

👇 Drop a comment with your favorite takeaway, and remember to subscribe if you want more real conversations like this.

#officerwellness #publicsafety  #leadership #lawenforcement #policetraining 

Contact Information:
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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

This episode is intended for educational, historical, and public safety. It discusses the realities of crime, violence, trauma, and recovery to educate the public and law enforcement professionals. It does not promote or glorify criminal activity.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

It's always been an interesting thought in my mind how bullies get promoted. You know, I always wondered about this. So I did a whole master's thesis on this. The DA asked the sheriff, who does he hint in charge here? And the sheriff, God bless him, is his well apparently he is. I left there with a 78% capture rate. You're the first person I'm gonna say this to. The other teams had the typical average capture rate of about 24%, which is the average for a large urban homicide detail in a major city. They would chide us. You guys are so lucky. Well, work makes luck. If you're working at it, the odds are you're gonna capture something and get something.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

Welcome everybody. Thank you for tuning in. I'm your host, Juan Cefas, and this is Lineup with Fit PD. Today's topic, uh, we're gonna be talking about leadership the good, the bad, and the ugly. Leadership is very important in law enforcement, and when it's done correctly, we save lives, we serve the community, and we keep everybody safe. Um, our guest today, he uh started his career with the National City Police Department, spent a few years there, moved over to the Sheriff's Department, where he did uh three decades of law enforcement leading a variety of different groups in investigations, patrol, and administrative assignments. He has uh been described as a true leader, and I want to welcome him to the show. Please help me welcome Don Christ. Thank you, Juan. Don, thank you for being here. My pleasure, Captain. I appreciate you being here. Thank you. Thank you. Uh you know, um when I started hearing more about you, I thought, you know what, everybody's always describing you as leading great teams and just doing the right thing. And you know, unfortunately, as you very well know, not all teams are like that, led by someone who is doing the job the way it should be done. And so I was like, you know what, uh, yeah, you gotta be on the show. You gotta be on the show. So um, Gavin, you want to tell us a little bit about uh how you started. I mean, why did you even want to become a a peace officer?

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Yeah, I think it started uh when I was in third grade, you know, those books that you put your um photograph in and your report cards, school year's book. Yeah. Your parents fill that 12 slots up and from third grade on, and they always asked, what do you want to be when you grow up? So, you know, fireman, this and that, and their soldier. When you're when I was in third grade, I my mom always checked police officer. And so uh, and I always wanted to be a cop in the town where I grew up from fifth from uh the time I was five in Nashville City, that's what I wanted to do. Uh I was influenced by my uncle, who is a Chula Vista PD uh retired lieutenant uh now, but um I I got to watch him and I think that had something to do with the fact that I I thought this is pretty cool. But but uh I so that's something I always wanted to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Well, you know, as you as I hear you describe that, you know, I just brings to mind the fact that having positive role models in our lives is so important because we want to emulate what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

You know, I I uh when I'm asked about myself, um, I always start with my parents. Uh my parents are both from West Virginia. They were born in houses up in the mountains, and uh my dad joined the Navy uh at a very young age, um uh just the same year as just before Pearl Harbor. And he and his brothers were on the Enterprise at the time when uh Pearl Harbor was attacked. They were, I think, 115 miles out of the ocean. Thank goodness the storm had slowed down the destroyers, and they weren't in uh uh Pearl Harbor at the time. They were supposed to be, but they didn't. But anyway, my uh father uh married my mom, both from West Virginia. They came out here when I was five years old. But uh my f my dad had passed away when I was 10. So uh my mom still had to work at Anima's Pancake House for your locals who know that. There are four of them in town. She was a waitress there, and every June to September, because she didn't want me running around National City by myself at 10 years old, I would get on a plane and fly back to West Virginia, and I'd live with my grandmother, whose husband, my grandfather, had died of black long, a terrible disease. And uh, but I had my uncles. I'd walk out the back door, there's an uncle over, there's an uncle, there's an uncle, all my cousins and all my uncles and aunts, and they had a huge influence on me. Just the way they carried themselves, they were nice guys, they kissed their mom goodbye, you know. I love you, mom, and you know, big strapping guys that didn't mind uh showing affection and doing the right thing, and uh, including my aunt who moved out to Bonita here. Uh so I was influenced a lot by my uh uh other uh family members as well. I think that has a lot to do with uh uh my character, and uh hopefully uh I think that had something to do with it. Yeah. So um I uh again got off on a tangent. But anyway, uh uh I came out to National City when I was five and I grew up, went to Sweetwater High School, graduated in '74, um, worked some odd jobs, two jobs, as a matter of fact, till I was going to college because I had to afford my own books. And uh came time I was 20 years old, I applied for National City PD, and um I was at that time the youngest guy hired, I think, by them. Uh and um so I started at age 21. I was sent to the academy at San Bernardino because um unfortunately nobody would accept us, nobody would accept National City trainees. Oh, really? Another story maybe for another time, but we um we were barred from Southern California academies, the trainees from National City. Okay. Apparently San Bernardino hadn't heard about us, so the three of us were sent up there to go to the academy, and uh the the living academy was full, so they put us in a hotel nearby. Unfortunately, um the third guy of the three of us right around the corner were prostitutes at Denny's, and he went over and had prostitutes in his room. Friday, one week within the academy, uh they gathered us up and uh sent us home. And I thought, I'm out of a job already. We're one week into the academy. All I wanted to do is be a cop, and uh, so we're we're done for the for the time. And so um that's anyway. Uh the chief had to eat crow. He uh the one guy who, of course, was fired. We never saw him after that Friday. We didn't know what happened. We just heard him screaming in the back, no, my wife, my kids. And I'm thinking, what the hell is going on here? Um, we didn't know, but he had prostitutes in the room, and uh the two of us didn't know what happened. We were just sent home. And then Sunday night, the chief calls us at nine o'clock at night on Sunday and says, Come down here. So we come down to the PD. He said, You better not sneeze without calling for permission. So I had to eat so much crow to get you guys back in the academy. He says, get get your stuff and go back up there. So we went up and of course I finished. And my partner, the other National City cop, became a valedictorian of the class. But anyway, never saw the other trainee again from National City. And um, so that's my how I came to be a National City cop for four years. Wow. Long story, sorry about that.

SPEAKER_03 7:51

No, that's all right. It's um you know, I'm not I'm I have so many questions, but I don't even know if I should go there. Um so let's just skip to you get to National City, and you're relieved to put the academy behind you. Um what's uh what's it like when you arrive?

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Uh it was a it was a very active city. We uh we had, I think, the second or third highest violent crime rate in California for per capita uh for a couple years, two or three years in late 70s and 80s. Uh and uh it was a tough town to work in. You were had to be aggressive. Uh there were only 50 of us at the time in the whole department. Now they have 65, and I don't know what they do because they don't have the mile of bars anymore. The lowrider problem is not all that gone. The low rider gang peripheral problem, not the lowriders themselves. Correct. They were never a problem. But uh anyway, um so I'm there and uh I I attribute my success on the sheriff's department with my training officers over the years because we were in a lot of uh altercations with uh, like I said, uh we were four blocks from the Navy station, 30 seconds station. And when the ships came in, we had six to nine thousand sailors and marines come in and flood the city. So we were in a lot of fights. Uh but I had a lot of good training officers that when the fight was over, they would grab you and say, Stop, the fight's done. Don't slam anybody, don't take vengeance on anybody, the fight's done. This guy, it's nothing personal, stop. And for two reasons. Number one, we want you to be here in 30 years. And number two, we want to be here in 30 years, so don't do this in front of us. And I'm telling you, as aggressive as a town it was, nobody believes me uh in law enforcement, because everybody around in the 70s would say, Yeah, I don't, I don't believe you. And but um I never went home thinking I was going to be at the six o'clock news or eleven o'clock news because we never did anything untoward. It was just automatically ingrained in you that we never did anything that was that I thought was wrong. And for such an aggressive town, it's a great thing to learn. And I tried to pass that on when I became uh training officer and as a training officer on the deputy uh as a deputy as well. And it was a great uh learning process for me. Yeah. It's something you have to learn though. You have to learn that when the fight's done, the fight's done. It's something that's not, you know, people it's human nature just to go, you want to get your kicks in or you want to get that extra shot in, but that's not the way we operated. And nobody allowed that type of thing to happen in National City. So I was very fortunate that I had big strap in Vietnam era guys and World War II guys that taught me that. And so it became just a natural thing to stop when the fight was done.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Well, you know, I mean that that's that's just part of that professionalism in our professions. Yes. And you know, we could use more of that these days, especially with the body worn cameras and uh cameras in every corner. Yes. Uh people are not learning that lesson.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Yeah, that's right. I used to tell the deputies when I was in uh San Marcos when they'd have they were talking about cameras and all that stuff, and I said, What are you doing on the taxpayers' money being paid by the taxpayers to do the public's bidding? What are you doing that you don't want to be seen? I mean, if it's a raid or something like that, of course it should go. But but otherwise, what is it in your day-to-day action that shouldn't be the public's viewing? And that you know, the old the old man's crazy or something like that. Don't give me that. I worked four years in Nashville City. I know that you can do things without doing things wrong. Yeah, going overboard. Yeah, and so I never, you know, uh it was never that fell on deaf ears with me. I it this is the way it is, and you should be doing things uh up front.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Exactly. Now, um, Gabin, any calls since you worked in National City and it was so violent back then, any violent calls that re that really stand out while you were working in National City?

SPEAKER_02 11:56

We had we had violent gang fights once a night when I was on. I mean, an extra special one. I remember kind of uh we were I had three gang fights on my beat in one evening. And some of the victims were at the hospital. I had I had uh packages of IDs stuck in my shirt, uh, and paperclip to my uh seam of my shirt from three different fights. And I was I pulled over at High Bev Liquor on Highland Avenue just to kind of get the face pages done. I just wanted to put these names on these pieces of three different reports because there are gang fights in three different places. I just wanted to get this done, get up to the hospital and get these things back to the victims and owners or suspects, whatever they be. And my reserve partner, as I'm sitting there just trying to take a break and get this on paper, he says, What the hell? Oh, oh my God, you know, something like that. And I look across the street, Caddy Corner at the Pizza Hut, and there's a gang fight going on. Another one, another one. And so we, you know, we called for cover and we got got that settled or thank goodness that was on the other side of Highland Avenue, so that was beat 20, which was not my beat. Uh so somebody else had to take the paper. But I remember that night, and I'm thought, God, this is the way it's just just the way it is. It's always we had, you know, violence was a just a thing in Nashville City in the 70s and 80s. Stabbings, shootings, stabbing, shootings. I mean, we, you know, uh always go into certain houses all the time and certain families. Uh yeah, it was just a common occurrence. Which gangs were the most prevalent? OTNC. Uh they were they were the big man on campus. They were uh they were the they were the people that would pretty much uh ran everybody else out. Uh I mean we had gangs come in from uh the low riders that came in during the 70s and early 80s in Nashville City. And low riders are not a problem, but they brought with them an element of gangs because there are girls there and guys, and the low riders just want to show off their cars. They would sit there and they want to talk about this and that and everything else. Well, of course, we had people coming from Colorado and Texas and uh Arizona, Nevada, just to ride Highland Avenue from 78, not the first summer, but 78 to 81 when I left. I was through the summer there. Um, and they had to shut down Nashville City, uh, the Highland Avenue to keep cars from turning around. They had to drive all the way to the end to turn around at N San Diego 43rd, come back, and they blocked off every street, so these guys could not pull over and turn around and show or stop or whatever, because then that that became throwing up signs or something like that. And it was, you know, it was like gang members that were causing the trouble. And um it was just uh there was always there was always something going on there all the time for years.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

Yeah. After a couple of years, you leave National City and you go to the sheriff's department. Yes. Where do you end up there? Uh where did I end up? Yeah, where do you end up working? Like uh in patrol and you end up working well.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Yeah, back then uh there were when you were a deputy sheriff, you were deputy sheriff, and that's it. So you went into the jail when you started. Uh you work your way by seniority to the top of the seniority list, then you went out to patrol, and then you went to a specialized unit like detectives, and then you went to super specialized units. Uh and then when you made rank, if you made rank as a sergeant, you went back into the jail. And then you waited till you got senior to the top of the list, and then you went out to patrol, and you started the whole process over again. You did your patrol, you did detectives specialized, super special stuff, then you went in as a lieutenant, you went back into the nowadays they have two different career paths. You have detentions deputies that work the jail, um, and that's all they do. Unless they apply for deputy sheriff, they're detentions deputies, but if they apply for deputy sheriff's law enforcement, then they can go to the academy and move out. So, but everybody back then, I started off in the jail. I worked three jails, uh, built South Bay jail. Uh my first couple of weeks there, the sergeant calls me and says, Hey, you're being transferred to South Bay jail. I go, What's not even open? He goes, Yeah, I know, and you pissed a lot of people off. I go, what? And he goes, There's a lot of guys in South Bay that want to be down there and and they want to be assigned to that jail. And how did you get that? And I go, I I don't know. I'm I was only there for six weeks on the department working in central jail. I didn't know what key fit the sixth floor yet. I mean, I didn't know. And he goes, Do you pick up uh white banders which are outside inmates that can safely, you know, work outside, not security, not like trustees. We don't call them trustees anymore, I guess, but uh that's what I call them. But um you pick them up, take them down there, and you start building things. What General Services tells you to put in a parquet floor for the basketball court, you do that. Put in the TVs, put in the stands, you do whatever. So I did that for a while. Uh worked Alcohol in jail, uh, worked patrol and IB and OTI, and then I worked traffic, um, and I went to the academy as a training officer, uh, got promoted, went to back into the jail.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Let me just I got a question about the academy because uh I I think you were there when they split up between uh San Diego PD and uh and the sheriff's department, because they used to be together at one point. Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Yeah. They had just I had just come in after they'd done the split, and what they did is they got irritated uh with the PD. It as Benny Cruz says, um Deputy Sheriff's a little rougher around people asked him, he says all the time, and it's a great I'm gonna give him credit for it because he says when I'm asked what the difference is between between a police officer and a deputy sheriff, Benny would say, Well, we're a little rougher around the edges. And I went, that's a great statement. But uh we were together at the academy, and uh I think the thing that set our people off in the sheriff's department was that one of the trainees' mothers called the command staff there and said, You're making my boy do uh punitive push-ups. So they had to stop.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

They had to stop.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Yeah, you know, you drop your baton, do 10 push-ups. Okay. Sure. Whatever. Uh, you know, you're training people. And so that was kind of like we're not okay. There are other things that the differences in the attitude. Right. Uh so one night uh the training staff all had been copying and creating all the post uh tests, all the post lesson plans, all of the records that were required to be on a post academy. Lieutenant Kolar, a great guy at uh at the time, was uh a lieutenant and he'd already made an agreement. He'd uh made an agreement with Southwestern College and set it up to rent and move the academy, the Sheriff's Academy now, which had been the regional academy. Right. But he says we're gonna have a sheriff's academy. And they moved during the weekend when the PD wasn't, the PD training officers weren't there, moved all the all the equipment, all of the uh lesson plans, all the paperwork required to become a sheriff's academy at Southwestern College. Not the police academy, which is its own little evening Tuesdays and Thursdays thinking, but a real Sheriff's Academy at uh at the Academy. And so he had set that all up and they had planned it, and uh we separated. Of course, we did that for probably five or six years, and then we uh just went back with the PD just to make it, you know, people shook hands and said, sorry about that.

SPEAKER_03 19:37

And but that was like in the 92. It was 86. When they came back together?

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Uh when they came back together, yeah, it was ninety two. We started that in 86, 87, and then uh somewhere around uh that time they did come back together again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

And do you know what uh the PD said when they found out? Not sure.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

I came in right after that. It was the new guy on the block. And so I don't know what was going on. I uh I yeah. One of the other things too, if you remember, there was a training issue after the uh uh I think I don't know which one of the people was the park, Grape Street Park street. Grape Street Park, yeah. They did a contact and cover. The PD did a contact and cover, and it was something kind of new. As a matter of fact, everybody's taken on to this because it was something that let's try to prevent all these. I mean, the PD was getting slaughtered. I'm sorry to say, but they were getting slaughtered from the 70s. I remember Archie Bugs and all these guys, Roop Tonnehill, all these people are getting just there's no reason for this. And back up, don't do this, don't do that, don't use your hand, you know, like stop. But here's an example of what of that type of thing. Uh, and I I think this goes to leadership. They they made a contact and cover thing, which is a great concept. One person does the contact and does all the action, right? Another person keeps an eye on everything. And um they put out a video. Well, the training division got it, the in-service guys got it and said, This is great. Um, we love it. It's it's a kind of a new concept, but it makes sense. One of you does it, uh, does the action, one of you keeps an eye on everything, hands and what's going on over here, an overview. And the PD called, the training division called and said, give us that tape back. Well, they didn't tell anybody, but we we had to we had to send the tape and they said, Don't make a copy of it. Because in the video that the PD had sent out to everybody for training, the officer was wearing his sunglasses and you couldn't see his eyes. And they didn't like that. And during a hot stop, not a hot stop, but kind of a a stop that needed a little bit of more uh keeping a be aware, the officer had his hand on his gun. Well, the PD didn't like that. Somebody there said no. And there was a third thing that like something you do naturally. Right. Something for your safety. And they said, We gotta get that tape back, because the guy had the sunglasses, the guy had his hand on his gun, watching the car, and we don't want him with his hand on his gun. There was Third thing. So we had to give them the take back, and you thought, this is so silly. I mean, you're saving officers' lives, but these three things are what they were worried about. Somebody somewhere in that command structure went, let's but that was the type of thing that made us different. We just went, This is ridiculous. This is really, really just and I remember that happened, and I thought, my God, that's just incredible. Here's a you know, so anyway.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Well, you know, stuff like that still goes on. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Uh we can't sweat the petty still. Yeah. Right. Um when it comes to leadership. Um any other uh stories, interesting stories from your time in the academy?

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Um well, my first academy, actually, uh one of the training officers in the first week went to her home in Spring Valley to pick up her kids. And she was in her white shirt. We because we're on a college campus, all we had was a black name tag with her name on it, a white shirt, a tie, green pants, and a belt. That was it. Nothing would no patches, nothing. That was everybody wore them. Um, because we're on a college campus and we didn't want to offend anybody, although they treated us well. Well, she went to Spring Valley to pick up her kids, and at the same time that she was getting out of the car, uh a robbery at the thrifty uh place had just occurred. Two guys get in a car, they r take a uh car at gunpoint, but it was a stick shift, and these robbers couldn't figure out the stick shift, so they scooted from out of the parking lot up the street and into a residential area where this trainee happened to be getting out of her car. And she gets out of her car with her keys to go get her kids at the residence, and these guys approach her and say, Give us your keys. Now she she did something that maybe I would do too, and you and I don't falter for this, but she threw her keys and they shot her in the back and they killed her. Well, um that was the first week she was a trainee, so that was kind of a um that was kind of an amazing thing to go through with a funeral and on duty. The sheriff, God rest a soul, Sheriff Duffy, made it an on-duty um um made it an on-duty line of duty death. Yeah. But I but the investigators asked these guys, they didn't know she was a cop. You wouldn't have known that. I mean, there's no way. And um they just killed her. And so the investigators said these guys didn't know, but the sheriff said no, it's an on-duty death. I think to give the money uh for benefits for the children, which is but unfortunately, and I'll say this because uh I hate to say it, but she's on that honor roll with all those people who died protecting the public and in the line of duty. And although unfortunate, um it's no different than me driving around, I'm a cop, and I'm driving around and I get in a car accident. Are you gonna honor me because I'm a cop? That's not how it works. It should be those people on. That wall should only be given that honor because they died doing the public's bidding for the public and putting their lives in jeopardy for that reason. So I don't know how I got off on that. But that was kind of an amazing thing. Uh we we had a great academy down there, and uh, I don't know what I was gone by the time they uh went back to the PD.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Went back to the PD. Oh. So once you go um you leave the academy, uh, what do you what do you end up going to next?

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Um I did 21 assignments. Uh in I I didn't like sticking around too much. I like experiencing new things. So I think uh I like to claim that I probably did more assignments than anybody on the history of the Sheriff's Department. The only place I stayed a long time was homicide, because you invest a certain amount of experience in the expertise. Yes. And so I didn't uh I wanted to do that. Plus um I was in I was in the patrol, I was uh made sergeant, went to the uh uh well you instead of jail, when you make sergeant or lieutenant, you can also go over to the communications center, and everybody laughs at you because it's a communications center. You don't go to the jail. I have to tell you, that was one of my best experiences. Having been on the department only five and a half years, I didn't know about the comp communications. Yeah. And those girls and guys care about those deputies. And I I saw it. The minute somebody's in a fight in a Radio Six or something like that, um it's dead silence. They want to, they want, they care about those deputies out on the street. And uh it was a great experience. And the they work hard up there, and I I was fortunate to be assigned to the comm center instead of the jail. Uh so everybody makes rank as a sergeant, but I got to the comm center. So from there I went out to uh I went out to uh I I worked Santee Traffic, I was in internal affairs, I was in homicide.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

When you were working in internal affairs, um you know I'm it's a difficult assignment because all of a sudden people that you've known for a long time don't know you anymore. They don't want to know you. I guess that's the case.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

I you know, they uh um I I don't know. We I think we did a great job at being fair. Uh as a matter of fact, uh um when the deputies would call to set up an interview, uh they would say, well, uh, and not just for me, but for some of the other sergeants, because there were six sergeants and a lieutenant. The sergeants were the investigators. And as you may know, and you I'm sure you do, the sergeants don't make recommendations for discipline. They just do the investigation. It should be that way. Uh so we would do our thing, but um with some me and some of the other guys, they would say, Hey, I'm just having a representative. The DSA said it's you, Don, or it's you, Vince, or it's you, Herman. So I just getting a rep. If it was somebody else, one of the other sergeants, they would say we're getting an attorney because she is an asshole. I'm sorry to use the verb.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

No, that that's that's fine. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

But there are people that fit that uh description. So she so they would be weary. And the difference between just getting a fellow deputy as a representative sitting in on the interview and the difference of getting an attorney sometimes would be the fact that it's it's that sergeant who's the investigator because she would go off on tangents and start investigating things just because you did three interviews and the third one didn't match the first one. Well, sometimes it doesn't. But she would just say, I'm gonna get them for lying or stuff. There was all kinds of stuff. I mean, that happens, and I guess it happens in departments where trying to people are trying to make rank. Um, but uh again, uh most of the people just did our jobs. Matter of fact, stations would call us and say, would call the secretary. It's a funny story, but they would call the secretary and say, hey, we need somebody to work six o'clock in the evening to six in the morning at this station or this jail. Well, the secretary would just say, Okay, we'll have somebody there. I'll call you back in a few. And they go, Well, don't you want to ask? And no, we don't get somebody. So she would come out and say, Hey, I got Encinita Station, or I've got South Bay Jail, or I've got uh George Bailey. Who wants it? And so we would split it six to twelve midnight after work, we'd go straight there, and twelve to six in the morning, somebody else would go home and sleep and come back. And the stations called us, and apparently the guys were okay with that. And I mean, I think you would hear gruff from the fine staff if that didn't work. But we were we were commonly called in IA to work shifts once or twice a week at stations that needed uh to fill in. I think that says something about the way we operate. I can't guarantee that it operates that way now. I just know that during the time I was there, there was just one one one or two people that came and went during my time there that um I would I wouldn't, you know, they were just knuckleheads and they were just looking for promotion. Yeah. So and that's what happens. When you work IA, you should get your choice of assignments or you should get promoted. I mean, once you get that, you that's one of the things you're offered.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

So it is a stepping stone.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

It is kind of a stepping stone. Most most people well I it's rare that people leave internal affairs that they're not promoted or they don't get an assignment that they wish they had that they're looking for. That there's a lot of people. I happen to get the assignment that uh for the public information officer. Oh, they said, What do you want to do, you know, where do you want to go? I said, Well, I want to do this when the time comes. And then uh as we talked about, uh the person in that PIO position just worked it for seven months and he went off and he he didn't want to do it anymore. And they said, Do you still want it? And I said, Yeah. I scored second on the test. Yeah, I'll take it. So that's where I went because I wanted to go there. So that's kind of something you're you're given.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

Now, back in IA, any um cases that were interesting while you were working there?

SPEAKER_02 30:47

I think they were um, you know, I don't have a lot of that stuff roll rattled around in my head, but uh we had uh one case that was uh another uh sergeant's case where a uh deputy was stopping illegals and stealing money from them, knowing that they wouldn't um report it probably because they were illegal aliens. And um so uh one of the other investigators set up a trap and marked the bills and recorded everything and drove around until that person actually stole from that person that was preset as the as the uh victimor, yeah, victim. And so um he came into the station and two of us went in and asked him to step out. He recognized us, the lieutenant, and you know, a couple IA guys, and the lieutenant from IA he recognizes us. And we asked him to step out, turn around, put your hands behind your back, and he's in full uniform, and we handcuffed him. And that was kind of an interesting, I mean, I remember this is just almost surreal that we're we're arresting a uniformed cop who just finished his patrols patrol time. But, you know, it's necessary. And a lot of people don't realize that that's a necessary thing. If you don't do the right thing, then you hang on to have the public doing things that you don't, you know, criticizing you for not taking care of the business. So it's a necessary evil in our business. I say evil, but you know, if you're doing the right thing, taking care of business, then that's what you should do. And we booked him, and of course, uh that that was always kind of a surreal thing for me.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

It's gotta be. Um any thought to as you're taking this uh deputy into custody, uh disarming him before you put the head cuffs on. I mean, how does that how does that work?

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Yeah. No, we had to put his hands on the car and then put your hands behind your back. The cuffs went on right my partner and I immediately did that, and then uh then we disconnected the belt and any other weapons on him and uh that type of thing. So um, but that's you know, and we approached him real quick. And uh both both of us with the guys in the background, Lieutenant also right near us.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

So hands-on right away.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Yeah. I do remember one time uh going into transportation to talk to somebody when I was an IA and um talking to the sergeant, I said, I need to take your uh the badge and the uh gun away from this guy if he's coming in. And they said, Yeah, uh, we'll call him in here. And uh he says, Are you armed? And I said, uh no, I just don't happen to be. My gun's in my car. And he says, uh you better get your weapon. And I said, I'm not gonna have any trouble. So I sat across the desk from him. I said, Hey, I you know, sit down, you know this is coming. I've got to hand you your paperwork and this and that, and I've got to take your gun and your badge. And he says, uh, what if I don't want to give it to you?

SPEAKER_01 33:39

And I thought, I may I kind of made a mistake not getting my not getting my gun out of my car and putting it on.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

But I said, look, we don't you don't want any trouble. I'm looking around thinking there's a stapler I could use. I don't know what I could do with that. There's a letter opener. I don't know, but the sergeant will have to yell for him to help me or whatever. But the guy was, you know, he was pissed, but and and I understand, but we walked to the locker and uh he took his belt off and there, you know, the whole thing and said, here you go, and I'm gonna take some stuff. And I said, You can come back for this, you know, for the rest of the stuff, but I need this and this and this. It was you know, he's kind of like pissed at me, but that's the way it goes. But I I don't think I'll ever I I I never did. I never talked to anybody like that again. I was like Andy Griffith without a gun, and then thought, oh my god, this is a mistake. But uh that was the only time uh I think I could say that I was like, yeah, this is not going well in IA.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

Now I want to go back to the migrant story real quick, um, Captain. On during that story, did it get out that the deputy was doing this? Uh yeah, it made the news.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

I don't know how, but um every year on the anniversary, his father would uh protest out in front of the uh sheriff's headquarters with a big sign saying unjustly whatever. He did get an appeal, and because the the serial numbers that were recorded, one of the numbers didn't match. And it was they were all good. Yeah. But the the deputy received the benefit of all the crap thrown against the fan that happens to us as investigators, all of us, he got the same defense because, well, this didn't match that. What else was wrong? And that caused some things it was overturned. He didn't get his job back. He never did. Never got his job back. And um, but he wasn't allowed to come back. But uh because you know, but he wasn't prosecuted. He he was prosecuted, but the prosecution was overturned later on on an option. Okay, okay. Which is, you know, our bane, I mean, of existence. It's like, you know, we'll see it the injustice done, and that was an injustice done that benefited that deputy.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

Now did the um I'm not sure like uh a civil rights group uh um support the sheriff's department for arresting one of their own for doing this? No, I never saw any of that. Nothing like that?

SPEAKER_02 36:10

No.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

I'm just wondering, you know, uh different times. No. So uh just interesting. Now, any other interesting stories from internal affairs? I can't think of any.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

I mean, you know, I had interesting cases. I can't tell you that our standard joke was that uh there was always a deputy, a male deputy that was gonna get in trouble with a female inmate. It was like always happening. And you'd think that these guys are in the system, they're jailers, they know what's going on. Um, they're gonna have history, they know what's going on, but there would be somebody that would get in trouble with a female inmate doing favors or after they get uh out, they're meeting up with them, or you know, whatever, and uh start the relationships with inmates that they started in the jail. And it would happen like once every year, once every two years, consistently. And the standard joke was since Adam and Eve, this has been a problem. And so that was our standard thing. Like they come in and go, look what's going on. It's one of those cases, and it would happen. And you just think, you know, what I think how does that how does that happen?

SPEAKER_03 37:19

I don't know. It's well, like you said, you know what, it's unfortunately it does happen. Yep, mm-hmm and it's still happening. Yes. Um I mean Sandigo PD just had the officer that locked himself in the back of the uh police car with a female prisoner on his way to Los Colinas. How does that happen?

SPEAKER_02 37:41

Yeah, that reminds me I did do a uh on a sexual assault case against a deputy and and uh so I completed that, did the rape kit and everything else, and um he was uh found guilty and uh he was allowed to and her history I guess was not quite so good. Sure. So they came up with a uh a thing that he he had to resign and uh he could not come back and because I think they didn't want to put her on the stand. I mean she wasn't the uh I would say the best witness, but it was good enough for prosecution, but they just made an agreement that if you leave now then that'll that'll do it. He was on probation for two years or something like that. So I did that case and got it uh got it done. Um he went and became uh Indian police officer over in Arizona and didn't have to abide by the probation that you couldn't become a cop somewhere, he could become an Indian police officer, so I don't know how that happened. But it was before SB2. Well, I don't even know if that would apply. I don't know. I d I don't know how it works uh these days in another state and actually you know on a reservation, um having worked places with reservations, I know um they don't have there's certain things they don't have to follow, and they you know, so certain federal government uh regulations they're not required to keep.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

So now uh just a couple questions on that particular case. Um was this uh female that was assaulted, was she in custody? Yes, she was. She was in custody. Okay. So it happened in the jail.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

It happened in the car. In the car. Yeah. In in the car, outside the car. I won't okay. Um when she was in his custody. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

That's uh can't explain how stuff like that still happens. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Um yeah, I don't even know what we can do to change that, but yeah, I but I can tell you that there were two or three cases where that there was that accusation that I personally did where they it wasn't it wasn't valid. I mean, we when we put the GPS in, I remember that saving the day for those deputies. Yeah. I mean I mean it didn't save the day, but uh you could tell by the GPS constantly moving stop signs two seconds, moving forward, going up to the station, there was no time for what she claimed had happened. And so the GPS saved them. And uh I had another case where something similar to that happened. So internal affairs is also responsible for finding the truth in the truth. The fact is that in those, at least in my instance, in those two cases, the information and the evidence didn't corroborate the the accusation, so they were uh, you know, found not to have violated policy and not to have violated any crimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:37

Well, I mean, you bring up the GPS, but even better today, the body worn camera is your best friend.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Yes, it saves so many people nowadays.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I I know uh I handled one of the first body worn camera cases in internal affairs for San Diego PD, and um the officers were exonerated. Yeah. Yeah. Um now, Captain, do you move on from internal affairs and where do you go?

SPEAKER_02 41:07

Um from internal affairs I went to the uh I went to Public Affairs. Public Oh, did that PIO. And then uh after that I went to homicide.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

Homicide. Uh huh.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

And that and you said you mentioned that you stay there a little bit longer. Yeah, about four and a half years. Right. Any um cases that stand out from your time in homicide?

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Uh I got the call for Santana High School, the multi-uh 13 victims, two dead. Um I remember sitting in my office. There's very few dates that I remember and things that I I don't keep this stuff. Uh one of them was one of my high school uh friends had been murdered, murder suicide, and I remember that day where I was, what exactly I was doing at the time. The other was um real quick. Uh the other was uh when I was a PIO uh when uh Heaven's Gate happened. I was a PIO for that. I remember where I was, what I was doing, how I found out about it. But this particular case, uh Paula, the secretary, comes in inside the door and she goes, Hey, are you up? And I said, Yeah, my team's up. And she goes, I got uh uh Becky at the communication center, 13 shot at least, and two dead at Santana High School. And I looked at her and I remember she's wearing jeans because we're inside an office, not anywhere the public would see jeans. I remember her shirt. She's barefoot on carpeting, and I and I remember I'm going, Yeah, sure. Okay, yeah. Because I didn't believe her. And she forwarded Becky from the comm center, the communications center. I pick up a phone, she goes, Hey, Don, you up? And I said, Yeah. And she goes, uh, at least 13 shot, two dead at Santana. And I go, Becky, come on, what are you guys doing? I thought they were playing a game. And so I look over at the computer and I run it up and I saw the patrol calls and I went, You're not kidding. She goes, Why would I kid about something like that? I said it just doesn't seem real.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

And uh, although Columbine had happened, I think about a year before that, I'm not sure within the year, but I said, We're rolling. So that uh uh we we went on that uh case and I told everybody because of the number of victims, I said, everybody in homicide, let's roll, let's go. And so we everybody in the everybody that could be spared at the crime lab, let's go. I need crime lab people too. So I paged them all out and off we went.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

Now, you know, I mean, you get there, and when you get there, um is there still an active scene?

SPEAKER_02 43:36

No, by the time I'd got there in East County, uh Christine Mills Robbins, uh sergeant had done an excellent job at scene uh coordination. She uh two of the guys, uh two two deputies, I think there was a PD officer as well, had placed uh the suspect in park. Yeah, yeah, had placed the suspect into custody after he was just around the corner. They knew he was shooting at people in the in the quad and in had shot people, they thought th th they'd fired off b uh firecrackers in the bathroom. And so the the security guy, what are the campus safety guy had gone in to they'd gone in to investigate and they were shot. Right.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

So Don, as you get your team together uh with people from the lab, everybody that's available, all hands from a homicide, and you get there, um what do you see?

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Yeah, the uh there were kids in the in Michigan Gorge Road all over the place and nobody at the school because the campus had been locked down. And uh Christine Mills Robbins had done an excellent job as the patrol sergeant to to follow an L E I S type of L E I C S type of system and got everybody locked in, uh started room-to-room searches and everything. In the meantime, it was a settled thing. We knew that the only shooter uh was was arrested, had been arrested, so the threat is kind of not there anymore. I start walking toward a realty office where they said the briefing is going to be held. Uh Christine's in there and actually I walked into the office with a team and as I'm walking in um I had guys handing me their business cards from CHP. Hey Don, I understand you're the lead on this uh here's my card, call me on a cell we have people ready. Uh Elcone PD, hey Don, um here's my card, here's my cell, call me, we'll help you. DA, hey Don, before you go, just hear and so I had cards of people that I could pair up with deputy sheriffs and the detectives and just send off to the hospital by themselves to go and do because I had 13 victims somewhere. So I was very fortunate to be able to have that uh those resources. So I walk into the office and there's probably 20 people in there too many people really for a briefing but we hold the uh we hold the briefing and Christine uh sergeant robbins uh tells us what happened gives us the briefing of it how many people where they are not necessarily the hospital specifically but there's they're all over the place the victims two dead still uh right inside the bathroom there um so um and here's an interesting story about a great leader um sheriff collander's in there with dip uh DA Paul Finkst so the sheriff's kind of sitting on a two-drawer cabinet leaning on it Finkst is behind him standing right by him and behind them is my lieutenant my homicide lieutenant's right behind him he later tells me this story this is why Collander's loved or was or why I loved him um Collander said hey Don I'm gonna need the names of those people so I can tell the parents and we can get that out to the public that these are the victims this is where they are and I said sheriff really that's not important to me right now I'll have somebody in patrol do that if the sergeant can do that somebody can take care of that for you that they can get that but I don't specifically need that information I just need the briefing to get over to the school to start the investigation and frankly was just to have another briefing with less people than what I got in front of me because there's too many people there. Well uh Jerry Lewis the lieutenant here's Paul Finks the DA asked the sheriff lean in and he says I he he says tells me later he says who does he think's in charge here and the sheriff God bless him he says well apparently he is and he left it alone and and you go you gotta love a guy like that because I'm gonna get in trouble if it's if I'm taking 15 20 minutes to tell him every name of every person I that's not something I need but we'll we'll handle it. But he understood that he says apparently he's the guy and no qualms about it. So I thought that's nice. And uh anyway I uh get over and we do another briefing with the crime lab and the homicide investigators and I start assigning them off to different hospitals um and doing photos and pictures and interviews and all that stuff and then by about 12 noon three o'clock I can't remember um I see the news blurb bullying look what it's doing to our schools and look what and I went oh wait a minute that's what they're that's what's going on here well we knew by that evening that afternoon that bullying wasn't an issue okay this kid was not bullied but yet Oprah Winfrey I remember she was claiming that this is what causes this type of thing that specifically him I don't know but in generality that's what they're saying in Columbine and there were bullies and bullying and there and I went hmm so uh as a result of that later on I sent the investigators to Elko Nevada I sent them to Maryland and I sent them to one other state to interview as many of those kids that had something to do with that suspect, the shooter as possible. If they had in their schools, if they had any contact with him I wanted to have them interviewed. And they we interviewed a thousand kids in different places in different states. We got to them before the defense attorneys could get to him say wasn't he bullied and that's the reason he was so crazy and no evidence of that because we had already asked every one of those kids that knew him in three different states to tell us the truth and tell us the story about this guy. Did you have any interaction? Yeah was he bullied no so we we tamped that down right away and he had there was no nobody could come up with any kids that said he was bullied.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

And so we were able to show that this was just some random act that he just was you know he was just uh I I don't know who know who knows why he did it I don't know to this day we don't know exactly what he was doing what he was thinking and uh why he did what he did.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Uh yeah um to this day we don't know why uh there was some talk about it between him and his two friends um and he had good friends he had good social relationships um they were they joked about it because of some other incidents that had happened but nobody thought he would go through with it and he independently went through with and brought the gun to school and shot somebody out of your experience with that active shooter scene what are like some of the top lessons learned for other um agencies that might in the future unfortunately have to handle something like this? We always our team always looked at you know you focus on the immediate uh relationships if there's not a suspect there you enlarge the circle and you enlarge it enlarge it maybe passers by who knows but but always defend the case and always look for other potential suspects you may have the suspect in custody but you also have to say who else could have done it and let's not let's stop that from being a defense right now. Right. Because if if the defense attorney doesn't have anybody else to point to then you got the guy. And they always say that well did you focus on him right away and so you didn't look for any other suspects. No we looked at everybody we looked at every contention and so plus I it was a standard joke for my team is that when they arrived independently at a scene and we're county wide so they're going out to the desert up in the mountains that as they walked up their homicide step aside homicide was the standard joke about step aside homicide so the deputy always wanted to tell the homicide investigator okay well this is what happened before everybody gets here well my team would always go whoa whoa whoa whoa stop stop don't tell me I don't want to what I we need everybody here and they would it was a joke a standard joke with my team that don't you dare say a word until everybody's here because the first couple days that we had a homicide I said something like the detective lead said well this happened and I said that person didn't say that oh they told me beforehand as I got when I got here they told me this is what happened and then they told us all the story and they told him a story when he got here and they told you hold on a minute how you have we now have three different three different parts of stories it's going to change no matter what I said but I didn't get that well each time that deputy on the in the field deputy that handled the initial case telling a story is going to tell less of it. So I said from now on nobody start any story I don't you tell that deputy stop you tell the sergeant stop you don't want to hear it until we all have the same information because you have that information but I don't you have it because you came second and I don't he doesn't have it because he's the last guy here but I have it we're not doing this anymore. So that was the that was one of the jokes that my team would let like hands off until everybody gets here. And I wanted the crime lab to have that information too. So we always included the crime lab and some of the other teams didn't do that. They would have their detectives do the uh stuff and then they'd have another briefing with them well the crime lab needs to know if they're doing the blood spatter they need to know if they're doing a collection of evidence they need to know exactly what's going on so we included everybody all the time. Now your team had a higher success rate. We had a very high success rate I left there with a 78% capture rate. And if some of those suspects came across the border we'd probably have more the other teams uh and you're the first person I'm gonna say this to uh the other teams had the typical average capture rate of about 24% which is the average for a large urban uh homicide detail in in a major city it's about 20 24 25 percent in major cities they match that we match 78% because the team it just always amazed me that they say well we didn't interview this guy because probably not going to turn the other teams would say well we're not gonna go interview him because that would turn out to be nothing they would chide us you guys are so lucky you're always lucky you're always sending people out to do this and to do that and well work makes luck and so if you're working at it you're you know the odds are you're gonna capture something you're gonna get something so I remember a New Year's Eve uh thing one time um I got a call from a gal in Louisiana and she says you know I've reported a murder twice of a guy that hit up on me and in Campo and uh nobody's taken me seriously I said tell me what happened she tells me that um she was uh one of one of the it's a small circle community out there one of the guys hit up this gal and she was a uh young gal she had an older brother and uh she's kind of waved him off and the boyfriend or the brother took offense to it. So four guys led the the victim who had kind of semi-acosted this girl a little bit down into the middle of a riverbed out in the middle of nowhere in a place that didn't have an address in a kind of a shrub forest and as he was being led down to a campsite down there the three guys shot and killed him by shooting him and killing him and wrapping him in plastic and putting him in burying him and I said and now tell me you you you've reported this twice she had reported it to the homicide team she'd also reported it to um the um we tip both of those were kissed off because somebody called and said hey we got this thing and the sergeant out there said oh we saw that guy last week at the barber that rumor's been floating around for months I said she's she's serious I mean I don't know her because she's in Louisiana she's calling me but our team is up on New Year's Eve and I said we're rolling let's go well we had two three detectives an investigative specialist and myself but you need four you need to pair off two people so three is an odd number we always had somebody that was volunteering for whoever was on call the other somebody else would volunteer for overtime for that team so you'd have two sets of two investigators which is a good thing to do so I remember the other guy going are you kidding me we know that that's not valid I said well you don't have to come with us you're on another team it's not our time we'll find somebody else no no I'll go well in the meantime we're gathering up going to the location and he says hey I just called and the the people out there the Arab guys out there the deputies out there said that's a rumor's been floating around and it's not true. I said okay we're not we're not gonna go you don't have to go we he goes I'll go we reluctantly go so he goes with us by midnight we had three in custody for murder we had the body and uh so that's the type of thing that happened uh occasionally and you go how does this happen somebody kissed off a call of a murder twice right from our department nobody ever nobody ever uh they didn't get in trouble for it nobody nobody said well how does this happen you had a murder and we went we got the guys in custody and in fact that was kind of an interesting search warrant because in order to search some of the including an abandoned trailer was the first search warrant issued by a judge for GPS and elevation uh location it was based on latitude longitude and elevation and uh a surrounding quarter acre or half mile in every direction for that and it made the news because we did the GPS and it was like they issued it because it didn't have an address out in the middle of nowhere but they needed a search warrant location and so we used that and it was it was that was kind of an interesting case.

SPEAKER_03 57:55

Wow and you know it's interesting because um not only is it an interesting case but just the whole idea that people kiss something that serious off and now they're not held accountable. Yes which kind of leads me to another area that I would like to explore which is the toxic leadership which you know sometimes um we allow some employees to get away with things like that because um of the toxic environment that we kind of um foster sometimes yeah you know and and all it takes is one person to screw it up for the rest of us and it affects the entire badge the entire star um and so uh what what what do you what are your experiences sir with um the this type of leadership uh you know I it's always been a interesting thought in my mind how um bullies get promoted I mean you you promote up to sergeant because nobody's seen you supervise anybody but once they get there you you I go how do they how are they bullies and people don't see it and they keep promoting and it's always been one of my pet peeves that bullies get promoted and I always thought how does this happen so uh comes time for me to return to college at age 50 and I thought um for my I had went back for my bachelor's and then I got they all the team said uh and my fellow students said let's let's go on with the master's I go I don't need a master's and they go come on I said okay so I start the master's program and they said you're gonna need a thesis what's your thesis for your work for your master's program I said you know I've always wondered about this how do bullies promote so I did a whole um uh master's thesis on this and it turns out that um I was able to answer this question these guys get promoted but they're obsequious and fawning to people above them but they're rude they're pompous they're rude they're they're they're condescending um they're just assholes to people below them uh but when nobody's looking right sometimes when they are looking they laugh and joke about the supervisors will laugh and joke about it or maybe they're also assholes just like them and they like their leadership style.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:19

But um I just never understood it and uh we were pretty lucky on the department we I I mean when I started uh I I'll tell you one quick story when I was going to pick up a friend at Homicide when I was in internal affairs I went to uh the homicide division to pick him up for lunch and there was a s there was a sergeant there and a lieutenant at the coffee machine and I said hey I'm looking for so and so uh the lieutenant says well he'll be back in a minute he's downstairs and I said okay well the sergeant didn't say anything to me because he was the type of guy that unless you could do something for him or unless you were an uh somebody above him he wouldn't talk to you because he was a pompous rude arrogant condescending ass and that's okay that's the way he was but he was only I sit down waiting for this friend of mine to come into the his office and as I was sitting there that sergeant lieutenant or right outside and the sergeant says can you imagine they put that guy in IA what a jokester he what what a clown he's always joking he's always telling jokes he's always smiling who's going to be afraid of him when he's interviewing somebody in IA that was his that was his thinking that in order to be an IA investigator and I was in internal affairs at the time you had to be feared you had you couldn't be you couldn't be pleasant you had to be you know you had to be a bully and I heard the lieutenant who I didn't really know except that he came to when I was in the academy he came to teach report writing so he saw me as a training officer and he said something like hey I think you I don't think you have a beat on him because he takes care of business when it has to be taken care of and I mean I was I was thrilled. I mean I didn't know the lieutenant but he just from seeing me in the academy setting that's all I thought well thank you lieutenant I appreciate it but to that then that I sat down there and I got to thinking about this guy and I got to thinking about all the assholes on the department. Well I only thought about five of them really that were just guys that were and I came up with an acronym Praka P-R-A-C-A pompous rude arrogant condescending assholes that guy's a praca he's a bully right and then we have very few of them but then I identified in my thesis not by name because you're not allowed to by law by federal law five examples of the Prakas that I knew and and everybody knows them you everybody in every department has those same kind of people and they're bullies they hate people they're they gotta be mean they got to be feared or else they're not respected.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:43

I I see I review I reviewed a uh my previous um my last position with uh San Diego PD I was in charge uh as a subject matter expert with EEO and some of the laws regarding EEO and after retirement I've been asked to look at several different cases and I've seen where some of this pompous attitude of supervisors has has resulted in violations of EEO uh and the supervisors perpetuate it by not holding their supervisors below them accountable.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:24

Uh-huh yeah and so you know it's problematic because if we're allowing people to continue to be this way toxic in the workplace it's costing cities counties departments money yes and at some point we gotta stop the bleeding I mean there's one agency in San Diego County that lost ten million dollars well actually they didn't lose it they gave it away because they were violating somebody's uh rights and so ten million dollars like um how do we hold those people accountable what do we what do you think you're you're right and it and it's not only a loss of money it's a loss of work time it's a loss of effectiveness um if you don't hold those people accountable people don't want to work around people like that and they avoid they're they're not effective um they all they care about are the two there's a Maslow's hierarchy of they just believe all they're doing is looking out for their job and their safety. They don't want to stretch they don't want to take chances they don't want to do the right thing because they're so afraid because of this bully that they'll just do the very minimum and they uh and but it's a work loss production because people call in sick uh they leave uh so that of course is a very costly thing for people to retrain uh new people to replace them uh people don't want to be around bullies and they just it's there's so many uh things that uh bullies affect and it just amazes me that the upper management of any organization won't take care of it when they see it and and put a stamp uh put a stop to it right then and there because um and I say this people will work for a bully out of fear they'll work hard for it out of fear and then when the day's done they're out the door at five o'clock they're done they don't want to be around that guy but they'll do it but they'll do the minimum that is just to retain their job they won't say oh make a decision this is the better they won't do that they'll stop they freeze so you it it it affects so many things and I used to uh say that the deputies when I was a captain at San Marcos the deputies that come in and hey Captain what's going on and I'd say well I'm you know what it's a Saturday or I'm there on a Friday night and they go can I help you with anything? Well thanks I appreciate that but they won't do that with a bully I'm not saying I'm all great I'm certainly not there are guys that dislike me because of whatever reason they have their grudges against me but they but uh but but that happened more often than not but they won't do that with a bully they're afraid of them they're afraid to Be around them because bullies are angry and they're they're just uh they they put up a front. And the reason is, and I've discovered this, the reason is they don't want people to break the barrier to let the subordinates know that they don't know what they're doing. So they put up this angry front so they won't ask a question, they won't approach them with anything because they're incompetent. One of the reasons. The other is they've been picked on as a kid, or they they weren't the kids that nobody no one paid attention to them. So they're gonna make up for it by being a bully when they're older and they get in a position of power. That's the second thing. But the major reason is a lot of these people are not that competent. And so they put up this front so that nobody breaks that barrier. They're afraid to go over and say, hey, Sarge, ba-ba-bah, bah, buh. So they what are you asking me for? Well, they don't know. So they put this barrier up that nobody wants to ask him a question because they know that he's gonna be angry. Well, they what they don't realize is that guy's incompetent and doesn't know what he's talking about, and so he puts this front up. Um and so that's that's a sad situation because uh people are they fail to uh be uh effective and they uh organizations lose a lot of time and energy and effort, a lot of sick days because of it. If you don't want to work around anybody, you're calling in sick, you know. And uh on a small agency, you can't get away from that. A larger agency, a little bit you can move to another location, I think. And and that's that's the benefit of a large agency, but that's not always the case.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:31

It's a huge benefit of a larger agency. Yes, it is. You know, you can go from the wild animal park to San Isidro and and the that space gives you some breathing room. Right. Yeah, yeah. Um, Captain, before we're done, anything else that you think is important that we should talk about leadership or any other topic that we should have talked about and we didn't?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:57

I don't I don't think so. I um no, I just think it uh I think people just make their own way and uh you know do the job well and they'll get recognized. And uh sometimes there's there's just forks in the road that you think, well, something's against me or whatever, but just keep on trucking, just keep on going. Um there's sometimes when you know people get discouraged if they don't make rank, for example, uh or for the they don't promote. I tell my story is particularly I was a sergeant IA, I took the test for lieutenant, and uh and I passed it, and I would have got on the sheriff's list for the potential people to get promoted. But I took my name off for two reasons. Number one, I had kids and I didn't want to go back into the shift work, which required when you made the rank, you went back into the jail, and I didn't want to do shift work because I had kids. Um, and so I said, uh take my name off the list, and uh not that I would have been promoted, who knows, but I said, and you have problems with the test. There are issues, so they fix those. Second year, I take the test, I don't pass. And I have to wait two years till I can take it again. And I went, oh shit. So I tell people, take it, take the test each and every time you're qualified, because one year they want people with purple hair, but you don't have purple hair. The next year they want people with purple hair, but they're not looking for purple hair. You have to take the test for promotion each and every time you're qualified. And if they say you're qualified and you go, well, I'm not really qualified, you are qualified. If this is what they put out for you and you have those qualifications, take it each and every time because you never know when you those two parameters are going to match up. It may not match up when you're ready. It may not match up for four or five years. And I had to wait two years until I took the test. Not that it was a big deal, but uh I took the test and got promoted. But um I think I think people kind of hold off. And it's not like they go, Well, I'm not really qualified. Are you saying that everybody that's promoted is qualified? No, there are people that get promoted for other reasons, right? So why don't you jump into that pool and and take the test each and every time? Because if they're looking for you, they want you. And it may be though, that just not this time, but hang in there. And I I and I work career path. That was one of my positions in HR uh for the department. Was hey, just keep at it. And uh, and if things go wrong, there's a reason for it. There's all sorts of reasons. It could be you don't even know that what up the upper echelon's looking for. So just stand by and don't ask questions, just say, okay, next time, and take it again and take it again until you you know are successful.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:38

Um what's your advice to somebody that's starting the academy right now? One thing that they should take too hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:46

Well, I think uh pre-training, um get physically fit and um because that's one half of an aspect you don't have to worry about. I went to San Bernardino Academy. They were as always in competition with Rio Hondo and another agency to be the toughest. We started with 60 people, we wound up with 31. We would go out on a run, and if the training officer could get between our group and somebody lagging, they would tell him go home. We would we'd come back and they would be gone. And uh so uh thank goodness I was somewhat fit. So you don't have to deal with that. I'd say get fit and uh do your sit-ups and push-ups and and knock that worry out of right off the bat, and then just pay attention uh and just do what you're told and yes or no, sir, and uh things will go your way. Um I you know I wasn't prepared for the academy, I was too young, but I got through it, I thank goodness.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:43

But that's it. Well, Captain, thank you for coming in. Appreciate your time. You're welcome, appreciate your leadership and all your uh years in service. Thank you, thank you very much. Appreciate it, and uh thank you for tuning in, everyone. Subscribe, hit like, and um for anyone out there that is uh suffering, that uh is contemplating suicide, 988. You're not alone, you're not the first to have these type of feelings, and there are people here that uh care about you that will help you. If you're just struggling with uh the profession, stuff that you encounter, you're not alone. There's cops that are trained that have been through similar things that you have been through that you can talk to. Call cop line, and somebody there will be able to help you. Just remember, you're not alone. We're gonna end the segment with a prayer from our brother in Christ, our brother in law enforcement, Greg Adminson. Thank you for tuning in. God bless you.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:58

We come before you with gratitude for the brave men and women who have answered the sacred call to protect and serve. You said in Romans 13, verse 4, that the one in authority is God's servant for your good. Lord, we thank you for every officer who stands the line. We thank you for every officer who runs toward the sound of danger when others run away. We thank you, God, for every officer who brings order out of chaos, and who seeks justice with compassion. Father, as warriors in a fallen world, we draw our strength from you. Your word declares in Psalm 144 verse one, Blessed be the Lord my rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for every battle. Train our hands, Lord, not only for the battles of the street, but for the battles within. Give us courage when fear whispers, give us patience when tempers rise. Grant us wisdom when decisions must be made in an instant. Lord, we ask for your divine protection over every officer in the field. Surround them with your angels as a shield, as you promised in Psalm ninety one, and let your peace guard their heart and mind in Christ Jesus. When they grow weary, remind them that those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength, they will soar on wings like eagles. Almighty God, you are our strength, you are our shield, you are our ever present help in times of trouble. Father, when the day's work is done, bring them home safely, restore their spirit, renew their joy, and remind them that they do not fight this battle alone. For you go before them, you go beside them, you are with them. In the mighty name of Jesus Christ, our commander and king. Amen.