42. Why Everyone Sounds The Same Online - Beige-ification, AI, and Cape Cod Cafes

In this episode, Samantha sits down with Sara Joelle of Between the Lines Copy for a candid conversation about AI in copywriting. 

Spoiler alert: we don't love it, but understand where it can give someone a boost. 

So we get real about those lengthy AF brand voice guides, and why we all need to exercise our creativity like a muscle. 

If you've ever wondered whether your AI tool genuinely "knows" you, or whether that 86-page brand voice guide your client handed over is doing anything useful, this one's for you.

Key points covered in episode:

• Why AI tools give eerily similar answers to different people, and what that means for anyone using AI-generated copy to stand out
• The difference between using AI as a task tool versus letting it do your thinking for you (these are not the same thing)
• What makes a brand voice guide worth having, and what makes one a complete waste of time
• How Sarah keeps her creativity sharp with a dedicated monthly practice

Connect with Sara from BTL Copy:

• Between the Lines Copy Website
• Say hi on Instagram
• Tell her your favorite chai shop on Threads

Connect with me:

• Instagram
• LinkedIn
• Website

Nomad Copy Services → sales pages, emails, websites, and more.

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Watch episodes with subtitles on my YouTube 

Nomad Copy Agency writes copy that CONVERTS for service-based businesses. Inquire about done-for-you services here.

Transcript

Sam @ Nomad Copy 0:00

Welcome back to Copy And, the marketing podcast where I teach you how to write copy that sounds like you but converts better. And today, I am joined with Sarah of Between the Lines Copy. We connected on Threads. We've connected many a time over the years, but we connected recently on Threads, where I often feel like I am just screaming into the abyss when I talk specifically about AI, and I worry that it comes off ranty. So instead of ranting on my own, I invited her to come in for a conversation. So let's start off with a quick introduction. Sarah, introduce yourself.

Sara Joelle 0:31

Oh my God, hi. I feel I'm the perfect person to invite for a rant. Like, when you said that, I was like, "Yeah, I'm ready to... I don't know what we're gonna rant about, but it's gonna be something, and I'm ready to be, like, your side character for the rant." So here we are. But for those of you that don't know me, hi, I'm Sarah. I'm a website copywriter and marketing mentor, an unapologetic squirrel, and I will be swearing. That's, like, what I show on my title slide of my workshops, and now when I introduce myself, it's, like, knee-jerk reaction. Those are the things that I say. So unapologetic squirrel means I'm gonna talk fast, and I'm sorry. Well, actually I'm not. I said unapologetic, so I take that back. I will be talking quickly, and I will be swearing, and I hope that's okay on this podcast And that's it

Sam @ Nomad Copy 1:07

It's 100% okay. We are, we are a potty mouth house over here, so 100%. So I listened to your podcast, which I encourage everybody to go listen to. Very fun. Feels like a yap sesh, like I'm out walking with a friend, and you start yours with squirrel questions. So I came up with squirrel questions for you of my own, and, we'll see where we go from there. Both, I think what we may have missed there is that we are both copywriters, and we are both very aligned on the way that we see copy, copywriting, and the purpose of copy. So we'll see where it goes from there. First squirrel question, I see you're drinking something. Tell me about it in detail.

Sara Joelle 1:40

If we're on video right now, you guys would see that there are squirrels on my cup. I was like, "If just in case it's on video, I better choose an on-brand cup right now." I'm drinking a chai latte today because that is my moment

Sam @ Nomad Copy 1:51

And you have like an in-house coffee shop situation going on. Tell me about that

Sara Joelle 1:56

coffee hater. I call it nasty bean water because I think it's vile and disgusting. Like, I wouldn't even share your ice cream with you if you had coffee ice cream and you put your coffee ice cream spoon on my ice cream. Like, I'm throwing mine away. Just my personal preference. I'm not a hater if you guys like it. I know I'm the outlier. So I started, when I bought my house a couple years ago, my at-home coffee shop, or an- I called it Anti-Bean Water Cafe, was, like, what I put on the Partiful the first time I invited my friends, and I just was gonna do it once. And then it got shortened to Bean Water Cafe 'cause it sounds better than anti. And then everybody liked it, and they were like, "Wait, can we come back next Tuesday, though? Like, this was fun." And I was like, "Oh, sure." Like, I wasn't gonna have a whole spread. I was like, you can just come hang out and we're gonna work." And then now, ever since, every single Tuesday, my friends come over and we work, and then about once a month, once every six to eight weeks-ish, I will host a bigger one with a theme. So my next one coming up is in a couple weeks, and it's a farmers market theme.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 2:46

Oh, that's so fun. That's so fun. Okay, so squirrels, are they like your thing or was that something that somebody labeled you?

Sara Joelle 2:52

I don't even know. That's a great question. I think that somebody may have labeled me that. Shout out to them, whoever they are. I don't know who it was. I just feel that I am one, you know, squirrel as a human, because I do have raging ADHD, and that is a big part of my brand as well. So I just, I don't know when I claimed it. I honestly think it was when my podcast started, because I have a little squirrel with a microphone, and I talk a lot about ADHD on the podcast specifically. So I think that it's always been there, but it hasn't always been a moment, and now it is a moment, so I am the squirrel

Sam @ Nomad Copy 3:25

You are the squirrel. She is the moment. Let's talk about your business. What is the first thing that you were paid to write?

Sara Joelle 3:31

Ooh, the first thing I was ever paid to write was a blog for 50 bucks. Well, there was two actually. I had two like first clients at the same exact time. So my first blog for Client A was about, hospitality. He was a hospitality consultant. He worked at Forbes and, helped hotels, be better. And it was a blog about that. And then the other blog was about the difference between a, minimony, an elopement, and a micro wedding for a wedding planner. And I don't remember the

Sam @ Nomad Copy 3:57

Do you have strong opinions? Okay.

Sara Joelle 3:59

All I know is I'm never getting married again. So that's my answer

Sam @ Nomad Copy 4:04

There you go. Yeah. We're eloping later this year, and people keep asking me like, "So who all's gonna be there?" And I'm like, I feel like I

Sara Joelle 4:11

Okay.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 4:12

elopement as like,

Sara Joelle 4:13

is an elopement.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 4:14

I'm, I'm,

Sara Joelle 4:15

going

Sam @ Nomad Copy 4:15

doing... Yeah, going somewhere. Like

Sara Joelle 4:18

I'm like, clearly an elopement is it's the two of you and whoever's marrying you and maybe a photographer, and you're off the grid somewhere. And then a micro

Sam @ Nomad Copy 4:26

Mm-hmm

Sara Joelle 4:27

baby wedding, and then a minimony is an even minier version of that

Sam @ Nomad Copy 4:31

I don't think I've ever heard minimony before

Sara Joelle 4:33

giving wedding industry, like you only would hear about it if you're planning a wedding. If you're like really researching it, and

Sam @ Nomad Copy 4:39

Yeah

Sara Joelle 4:40

2019, so that was maybe very 2019 of a thing.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 4:44

Yeah, could be. 'Cause then all the weddings got small in 2020, and then,

Sara Joelle 4:47

True,

Sam @ Nomad Copy 4:48

I don't know, here we are one blink and six years later. Yeah

Sara Joelle 4:51

believe that.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 4:52

Yeah. Okay, what is your favorite question to ask on sales calls?

Sara Joelle 4:56

Oh, wait, on sales page? Like if I'm writing a sales page?

Sam @ Nomad Copy 4:59

Now on sales calls, like when you're on a sales call

Sara Joelle 5:01

gasped before you were done 'cause I was excited and then I didn't hear the question.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 5:05

Okay, answer both. Answer both

Sara Joelle 5:06

Oh, period. My favorite question to ask on a sales call is to ask a client to describe whatever they do or offer to me like I'm five. But then, this is an important caveat to that answer, then to ask, "Why not?" When they inevitably say, you know, "I can't say that." 'Cause they'll tell me, okay, I'm like, "Explain what you do to me," and then they explain it, and then it was perfect. I'm like, "Okay, cool. Like, I love that. Why can't we just say that?" Or they say, usually like 85% of the time they're like, "But I can't say that." Before I even have the question or have the reaction to the question, they say, "But I can't say that." And I'm like, "Why, though? That was perfect." So that's my favorite question to ask is, "Why not?" 'Cause then their face is like, yeah, why not? Why can't I say that?" And then they have a moment of realization that they're awesome and perfect. So I like that. And then my favorite question to ask of like sales page, period, why wouldn't somebody want this? 'Cause I think people do a lot of work to think about why somebody would, but we also need to care about why somebody wouldn't, so we can either, like, delete them as an option, you know what I mean? And not write to them, or make sure that we're addressing that objection and, you know, get them to want the thing.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 6:09

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love that. I was just on a sales page this morning 'cause I'm thinking this is such back... What's it called? Back end information? Hidden information. I'm thinking about changing my ESP. It just issues right now, and I was going through somebody's page, and they're an OBM, and they were like, "This..." It wasn't an this is for you, this isn't for you. But it was her only options just very much discluded me, and I was like, "Wow, I think I spent less than 12 seconds on that page." I, clicked on services, saw her two options, and I was like, "That's not how I wanna work

Sara Joelle 6:37

and

Sam @ Nomad Copy 6:37

if this is a thing." I was like, I need you to stay here forever. I don't want it to handle my own ESP." I'm a copywriter that doesn't like handling her own email service provider. So, yeah, the why not

Sara Joelle 6:47

is

Sam @ Nomad Copy 6:47

is just as qualifying and just as powerful. We saved her so much time getting on a sales call.

Sara Joelle 6:52

And you saved yourself so much time

Sam @ Nomad Copy 6:53

Yeah. So much time, so much time. Okay, final squirrel question: What is your most recent hot take on AI and copy?

Sara Joelle 7:02

Ooh. My hot take about hot takes is that if they're not hot, get the fuck out of my face. That's my hot take about that.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 7:08

Also this.

Sara Joelle 7:09

I

Sam @ Nomad Copy 7:09

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Sara Joelle 7:10

About AI and copy. I just don't think anything that I have to say is, like, a hot, or it shouldn't be a hot take, and my hot take is stop. Stop trusting it to give you an answer that's different than an answer it would've given somebody else. I think that is something we don't talk about enough, is like, whatever, if you wanna use AI to write, that's your own problem, blah, blah, blah. If you don't give a fuck, whatever. But don't act like your chatty knows you so well and isn't giving the same answers that it got from learning the internet to somebody else. I will never forget, one time I was helping somebody think of a name for their newsletter, and it was on a call. And we were talking about, it was like a newsletter strategy situation, something that I teach. And so we brainstorm all this stuff, and then they were like, "Okay, now that I've used my own brain, you can check ChatGPT to see if there's any other ideas," whatever. They check, and, you know, one of the names comes up, and they were like, "Oh," like, "that came up in my search." And I was like, "Yeah, girl, I wonder why." Like, you type in the same thing, doesn't matter that you and I live in a different country, different time zone, have completely different AIs. If I type in the same thing as you, I'm gonna get the same answer. So if another, VA wants to name her newsletter, guess what? And she goes on ChatGPT just like you, you guys are gonna have the same newsletter name. it's giving everybody the same info, so I feel like you really need to work on differentiating yourself. That's my moment with that, and not to trust

Sam @ Nomad Copy 8:29

Mm-hmm

Sara Joelle 8:30

So I don't think that should be a hot take, but that's what I got for you

Sam @ Nomad Copy 8:33

Yeah, so somebody told me yesterday that... 'Cause I don't dabble too hard in AI. I have both Claude and ChatGPT. I don't use it for client work. We can talk about that. But, Somebody told me yesterday that their AI and my AI wouldn't give the same answers because it understands them, and mine would understand me and my habits. And I don't even know what my question here is, but, like, do you know anything about that/is that true?

Sara Joelle 8:57

I mean, I do think that if we both went on, like didn't log in to free version of ChatGPT, obviously it's gonna give like probably the same exact

Sam @ Nomad Copy 9:06

Mm-hmm.

Sara Joelle 9:06

If your AI is trained for you and mine is trained for me, and I say, in my very specific prompt and I were to say like, you know, "Write it in my voice," or whatever, it probably would give me a different answer than you, but it would be coming from the same bigger overall, wealth of knowledge that it has, which is just info from the internet, like everybody else's knowledge, and they just are a bot, so they can scan it faster than we ever humanly could, or it's humanly possible for us to be able to do so. So maybe it would give a different answer if you trained it more, but it's not giving you an answer that's like proprietary that it's never given anybody else. You know what I mean? So like you're, have no idea if it would be, you know, copyright infringement. Like you would have to do your own research. You can't just take what it gives you and assume that it's like made for you. It might be curated for you, but it's not yours alone. Like if somebody else is similar vibe as you, like if you and I were the same personality and we trained our AI bot to quote unquote "write like me," but we write in a similar way, give us the same vibe

Sam @ Nomad Copy 10:08

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I'm even thinking like a step back here as far as like, let's go back to research. If I'm visiting Cape Cod and I type in like, "Give me the three best cafes that I should go to," it's gonna give me cafe A, B, and C. What I'm like genuinely curious about is, is it going to give you different cafes because it knows that you want chai and matcha and it knows that I want espresso-based drinks, right? Like, like we could try.

Sara Joelle 10:33

should we just type it in and see what it

Sam @ Nomad Copy 10:35

We could try. Let me pull up my ChatGPT. Let's see what it says

Sara Joelle 10:38

So let's type in the same prompt then. I'll type in, "Give me

Sam @ Nomad Copy 10:43

Okay

Sara Joelle 10:43

Like, maybe not give me. "Tell me the three best coffee shops on Cape Cod." Without even hitting enter, by the way, I know these are gonna be wrong.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 10:51

Okay

Sara Joelle 10:51

positive as a Cape Codder, they're gonna be wrong. Like, these are not the three best coffee

Sam @ Nomad Copy 10:56

It's gonna be like, "Go to this Dunks, that Dunks, and the other Dunks." Okay, that's what we're typing in. Tell me the three best coffee shops on Cape Cod, period.

Sara Joelle 11:04

Okay.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 11:05

Okay.

Sara Joelle 11:05

tell me yours

Sam @ Nomad Copy 11:06

I'm not in any specific GPTs

Sara Joelle 11:08

Mine's just regular old ChatGPT But if you don't use yours,

Sam @ Nomad Copy 11:12

If you're

Sara Joelle 11:12

I use it more than you use it. I don't use it... Well, we can talk about what we use it for. Maybe we should discuss that. But

Sam @ Nomad Copy 11:17

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Sara Joelle 11:18

enough, like knows me a little. It's like I'm not

Sam @ Nomad Copy 11:22

Okay, if you're judging by a combination of coffee quality, local reputation, atmosphere, and consistency, these would be in my top three: Snowy Owl Coffeehouse, Nirvana Copy Co...

Sara Joelle 11:33

Okay

Sam @ Nomad Copy 11:34

Coffee Co., not Copy Co. Oh my God.

Sara Joelle 11:36

like, "I love that copywriter."

Sam @ Nomad Copy 11:38

yeah, we should go. She's still thinking about number three. What does yours have so far?

Sara Joelle 11:42

God, you're a chatty slope.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 11:43

Oh, here it goes. Great Awakening Craft Coffee

Sara Joelle 11:46

Great Awakening Craft Coffee is a church coffee shop. Fun fact. so love that for your chatty. Okay,

Sam @ Nomad Copy 11:53

Like one of those culty ones, like yellow Door Coffee. Do you know about these?

Sara Joelle 11:57

Yellow Door Coffee, no.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 11:58

It's called, The Yellow Coffee Shop or Yellow Door Coffee Shop, I listened to an entire podcast about it one time. Basically, it's a foot in the door into a cult, and, everybody that works there works for the cult, and they, don't get paid,

Sara Joelle 12:09

God

Sam @ Nomad Copy 12:10

because all the profits go into, like... It's like indentured servitude, basically. Yeah. It's kinda fucked up.

Sara Joelle 12:15

insane.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 12:16

So anyway, I hope,

Sara Joelle 12:16

of those.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 12:17

I hope that's not this one.

Sara Joelle 12:19

Okay, so mine gave

Sam @ Nomad Copy 12:20

Okay, tell me your top three

Sara Joelle 12:21

Snowy Owl as well. But I do have to add the context for this specific example. I have asked ChatGPT this question a couple times before because I run a Cape Cod Instagram account where I recommend drinks. So that-- maybe this actually is a good example 'cause I do have... Like, mine has more information about me in this exact topic. So mine gave me Snowy Owl

Sam @ Nomad Copy 12:42

Mm-hmm.

Sara Joelle 12:43

and then it said, "Why I'd

Sam @ Nomad Copy 12:44

Okay

Sara Joelle 12:45

but clearly it doesn't know me. It says, "Best actual coffee quality." I don't give a fuck. I'm not drinking that. And then it said, "Coffee obsession," which is good, and then Three Fins. Did you say Three Fins on yours?

Sam @ Nomad Copy 12:54

No, but it says it in my honorable mentions. It has both of those. Mm-hmm

Sara Joelle 13:00

Hot Chocolate Sparrow, which is a disgusting chai latte in case you guys are wondering, and then a random one in Provincetown that I can't pronounce

Sam @ Nomad Copy 13:06

Okay.

Sara Joelle 13:07

Interesting. So

Sam @ Nomad Copy 13:08

Is it kohi? Kohai?

Sara Joelle 13:10

I was like, "I'm not gonna try

Sam @ Nomad Copy 13:11

Okay. Yeah. That's one of my, honorable mentions. Okay. So that kind of starts to answer that question. Yeah

Sara Joelle 13:17

So yeah, I feel--

Sam @ Nomad Copy 13:19

That even though yours knows you and you're like, "I would literally not drink that coffee," or, "I would not drink that..." Your chai. It's still giving very similar responses, which I think about a lot in terms of, like, how dangerous it is for people to just pull copy that they're like, "Oh my God, this does sound like me 'cause I told it to be punchy and funny." And then people who didn't tell it to be punchy and funny are like, "Oh, okay, this is really good because it's actually simplifying my language, and that's what I was looking for, was for it to sound more academic." And I think it's like when you read the, like, horoscopes in the back of Teen People back in, like, the year 2000, and it's like, "You're right, I am such a Libra."

Sara Joelle 14:00

Yeah.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 14:01

And it's like

Sara Joelle 14:02

said the same damn thing if you were a Gemini.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 14:04

Yeah, exactly. And that's

Sara Joelle 14:06

our control group, like our question, like maybe it wasn't the best example 'cause we're asking them to recommend a place, and if we had said like, "Give me a name for my newsletter," or like, write a, you

Sam @ Nomad Copy 14:15

Mm-hmm.

Sara Joelle 14:16

hot take copy tip or something, like maybe that would've been a better test. I feel maybe it probably would give different things. But what I was trying to say is that it, like you can't just take it at face value, and so many people do

Sam @ Nomad Copy 14:29

Right. Yeah, 100%. And it's not just the answer that it's spitting out, it's the way in which it's spitting it out, and I think that's a frustrating thing to look at as a copywriter. And on the flip side of that coin, I was reading a book, die With Zero, and it was written in 2019. And I was reading it the other day, and it was like, "You don't need this. What you actually need is that." And I was like, "Oh my God, this feels so AI." And then I, looked at the copyright, and it was

Sara Joelle 14:53

Yeah, prior

Sam @ Nomad Copy 14:55

language learning models had come out. So it's also funny that, the prose in which AI writes, no matter who you are and how much you train it, there are going to be similarities, and there's a risk in us all kind of sounding the same. And it's like when you look at a car parking lot right now, all the cars are, white, black, and tan.

Sara Joelle 15:15

Yeah

Sam @ Nomad Copy 15:16

And, you look at a picture from the 1960s, and the cars are yellow and red and blue, and they've got, stripes down the side as stock. And it's like, I think we're generally losing our color when we,

Sara Joelle 15:28

We're getting beige

Sam @ Nomad Copy 15:29

Like when, yeah, we're getting beige by just trusting that what it puts out is not only factual, 'cause that's a question mark, but, also that it's, objectively good

Sara Joelle 15:38

That, period. I mean, I think it's objectively bad, but for a lot of reasons. But I also think general, like even not naming a specific tool or even like referencing a language learning model specifically, like people don't wanna use their fucking brain. Like we are so sick of using our brains. Like I cannot stress enough how stressful that is to me personally. Like if we take a second to think about it, It's giving me hives. Can we use our brain? Like, what's gonna happen when nobody uses their brain anymore, but we still have to exist as a society and, you know, run countries, make important decisions? Like, are we gonna be like, "Hold on. Let me ask my bot in my pocket." Like, help. That part's

Sam @ Nomad Copy 16:17

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sara Joelle 16:19

Creativity is getting

Sam @ Nomad Copy 16:20

Yeah.

Sara Joelle 16:21

Critical

Sam @ Nomad Copy 16:21

getting diminished, but like... Okay, so what are you doing to, like, play with your creativity right now?

Sara Joelle 16:26

I'm so glad you asked. Wait, I have the perfect thing. Hold, hold on. Oh my gosh. I had to squirrel away. holding a basket. Okay, asked me this at the perfect time because June is creativity month in BTL world. So single year I have this basket, I'm gonna explain in a second. Every single year in

Sam @ Nomad Copy 16:46

I thought you were making the basket.

Sara Joelle 16:47

something in the basket, that I'm going to share with you. is creativity month for me personally every single year. So a few years ago, I read a book called Tools of Titans by Tim Ferriss. I feel he might be, like, canceled. I don't really know. It's not about him. He gathered a million experts in, I think it was actually his podcast, and then he basically just, transcribed his podcast into one giant book and put the best advice from all the people he'd interviewed into a book. So there's this guy named James. He talked about exercising your idea muscle, and he talked about, why that's important and why He essentially developed this method where if you can't think of 10 ideas, you have to think of 20 because you need to get past your brain's, like, caveman, primal fear of, you know, just fear, period. But fear of embarrassment, fear of, "Oh, I'm gonna be stupid," whatever. Like, your brain is blocking you from your good ideas if you are, like, nervous to write them down. So he forces you to go from 10 ideas to 20. I force people to go to 30 because I'm dramatic. So I started doing that. I started sharing that, and I just You know, that was about the month of June a million years ago. And then the next June, I was like, "That was fun," when I was, like, obsessed with these random journal prompts from this man, "so let's do it again." And then now every single year, I get more and more intense about creativity month. And this year, I would argue I'm the most intense, and I have so many props I can show you. You didn't know you were getting a speech on this question.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 18:02

I love this. Okay, when you pulled out the basket, I was like, "Oh my gosh, basket weaving." Like, wow, you did it, but it's not about the basket, it's about what's in the basket. So,

Sara Joelle 18:09

not weave this

Sam @ Nomad Copy 18:10

okay. Yes

Sara Joelle 18:11

At the Brimfield Antique Market for 15 bucks. But anyways, and it's, like, supposed to be a purse, I think, but instead it has my creativity month prompts. I have lots of prompts right now. So what I did is I cut up little blue squares of all these random things that I could be doing, and I pick one a day for creativity month. I think there's actually more than 30, but whatever. Okay, let me pick a random one. This one says, "Do a prompt from Creative Block," which is my other prompt I have to share with you. Old. it's this little block thing, and it's a million, like, little pieces of paper, as you can see, and every single paper has a different thing. So this one, like, you pull it out, and it says, "Draw your happy place." This one says, "Turn me into a butterfly." One says, "Design a futuristic hat." And it's... You just interpret it and do, like, whatever. So I have that. A bunch of the other ones say, like, "Do the watercolor book," which I also have. Oh my God, so many props. I have this cute little watercolor book, and now I'm watercoloring. I have, like, one that's write a poem. And on my, desk right now, stacked under this microphone, I have so many, 'cause I'm in the process of writing a book. I have so many of these writer prompt books. Ones for writing humor, character, memoir, dialogue, all that good stuff. So if you wanna know what I'm doing about my creativity, everything. Everything

Sam @ Nomad Copy 19:24

that's huge because I don't think most people sit down and realize that when we're giving away our creativity, when we ask the internet to tell us things, there's a difference between tasking AI with something and letting it do the thinking for you.

Sara Joelle 19:37

Right.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 19:37

I think those are two very different things. And then also that like we don't think of it as a muscle that we need to like what I write for my clients, what I write for myself is not the pinnacle of what I can write. And I know that because I spend other time writing journal prompts. You're writing a book, that's incredible. Like, and I have other opportunities to think about things by like going outside and touching grass and talking to strangers

Sara Joelle 20:02

Oh my God, I love talking to strangers. I just got new neighbors, and I'm pumped. I cannot wait to, like, walk over there with my cookies. Also, you gave me a great idea. I don't know if you saw my response. I posted on Threads and said, basically said, "What should I bring my new neighbors?" And Sam commented on it and said... What did you say? Like a list of, local favorites and things to do. I thought that was so nice.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 20:20

Like make 'em a little personalized list of like, "Hey, I saw you had kids. Here's our favorite playground. Hey,

Sara Joelle 20:25

I'm totally

Sam @ Nomad Copy 20:26

this is where you should get coffee."

Sara Joelle 20:28

And it's so, like I'm

Sam @ Nomad Copy 20:29

Yeah,

Sara Joelle 20:29

as a

Sam @ Nomad Copy 20:29

and follow your Cape Cod Instagram.

Sara Joelle 20:31

right? Oh, my gift got Instagram. That's a good one. Yeah, I'm just very sentimental, so I know like myself, if I got that, I'd keep that list forever. Like, the person who gave me local honey, it was for, like when I moved in, was, from their yard. Like, they have bees.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 20:43

Incredible

Sara Joelle 20:44

And then they had a little note that was like, "Happy year on," like, "X street." And then they signed it, and they little like paw prints for their dogs, and it was like from, you know, Janie and her husband and the dogs and whatever, and it's like on my little bulletin board in my kitchen, and it has been ever since.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 20:58

Yeah. That is precious. When my neighbors moved in, I, made a plate of cookies and some other things and took it over, and, they, opened the door, grabbed it from me, closed the door, and, never gave the plate back, and it's the most awkward thing. So I'm really excited that your neighbors are far more close-knit than,

Sara Joelle 21:15

have seen,

Sam @ Nomad Copy 21:15

than yours are. 'Cause I

Sara Joelle 21:16

they look to be about my age

Sam @ Nomad Copy 21:18

think I'm like you, where I'm like, "Hi, new friends. We're gonna have tea," and I'm, like, romanticizing everything, and then they're just like

Sara Joelle 21:22

Cafe. I've already... I have a plan. They closed on their house today. They're around my same age, and they were, like, in their front yard clearly, you know, about to make their offer. They were there with who I'm assuming is, like, their dads doing their final, like, okay, should we buy this house, whatever. So I'm walking to school with my son, and I was like, "Be cute. Say good morning." And then, like, so whatever, we walk by and he's like, "Good morning." And he's, you know, six at the time, so he's waving and he's, like, all cute with his little backpack. And I was, like, seeing us from their eyes, like, they were probably like... And she's pregnant right now, like, very visibly pregnant. And I was just, like, seeing us, like, look at that suburban family, walking to school, and I was like, I would wanna move in if I saw that. We were, like, such a scene. It was so funny.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 21:59

Yeah. Very quintessential. I love it. Truly, truly. I go home and, my mom embarrasses me 'cause she talks to strangers, so much. But, then I realize that, I'm... When I'm not at home or, like, my partner's really introverted, then I go out and I talk to people pretty aggressively, too, and I'm always just like, "Oh, I very comfortably in my 30s, am becoming my mother." Yes. Yeah

Sara Joelle 22:23

always been

Sam @ Nomad Copy 22:25

Nobody in my family has ever met a stranger. My dad has been known to meet somebody on a plane back to Des Moines, Iowa, where he's from, and, the person next to him will, stay the night at his house rather than getting a hotel, 'cause that's just too much.

Sara Joelle 22:36

I've had the same experience.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 22:37

And it's just like this is... Yeah

Sara Joelle 22:39

but I have made many a relationship on a plane.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 22:42

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Truly, truly. So before we recorded, we had talked about, how AI is also, like, overdoing it, and we don't need to necessarily wax poetic on AI, but also it's so fricking prominent in our industry right now, and it's giving us, like, too much often. And something that I had mentioned was specifically these, like, fucking brand voice guides where clients will turn over, they're like, "Oh, don't worry, I have an excellent brand voice guide," and it's like 86 pages that are, like, 99% unhelpful.

Sara Joelle 23:15

Yeah

Sam @ Nomad Copy 23:15

And I don't even know if I, have a question for you, but, are you experiencing this? What's our action item here? I was like, what can people do differently or better? Is it better to just not have one of these? Where are you at with this?

Sara Joelle 23:27

So my question as a copywriter, like if I had a client give me an like AI generated, brand voice guide, which I have only had happen one time, I would be questioning if they read it, and I would be questioning if they are aligned with it, and I would be questioning if they actually want their brand voice to be that. Like, basically I... You can tell instantly the way that it's formatted, like where you got that. So if I saw that it was like clearly AI drafted, like whatever, live your truth. Again, you're not a copywriter, that's why I'm here. So maybe you were doing it to try and help yourself. Like I, I don't wanna shame anybody for the tools they're using just because I like am against their tool. But if you're the type to wanna pay to work with me, like you're probably not using it. So whatever. If I got that, I would feel the need to verify. Like, "Hello, do we like this information? Like, are you aligned? Did you read this?" Like, I would just be questioning. But I think in general, like AI or not, having a massive brand voice guide, this is the closest thing to a hot take I have for you, is I don't think they're necessary, period, for a client. And I will... I don't know if you do this, but I don't require them for copy. I know a lot of copywriters do require you to have a brand messaging guide, or they'll make one for you or whatever. As a copywriter, I do think it's easier, like makes my job way easier if I've made a brand messaging guide and now I'm writing your website copy because I'm like, "Okay, sick. There's like a million things in here that are approved and like spot on for headlines." Like I just wrote a website copy draft for a ADHD and executive function coach, and I did a brand messaging guide for her. I call them brand messaging book, 'cause that's more me. But I did that for her, and I, I was like, had too much to work with. I was like, "Oh, this is sick." Like, her website copy is gonna be done in two seconds because I have so much great content in here. But unless you're using that to like a like junior writer or a social media manager or like teach your team on like how your voice sounds or whatever, I don't think like regular girly who just wants a website and is gonna move on needs a brand messaging guide, period. AI or not.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 25:22

Mm-hmm.

Sara Joelle 25:22

with that?

Sam @ Nomad Copy 25:23

Yeah. Probably nothing or training it to, like training your AI. Like you tr- create a Claude skill or whatever.

Sara Joelle 25:30

Then yeah, sure

Sam @ Nomad Copy 25:31

Yeah. Or what I think a lot of people do is they're like, "Here's my favorite emails that I've ever written. Here's an, like somebody else's website that I like. Like, how would you describe this voice? Okay, now like create a skill." And then they're like using that to train their AI. But yeah, what you use to train your AI is not the same thing as what you use to train your copywriter. What I will say is I love working with people who are doing rebrands or have done one recently, 'cause they've usually worked with a strategist. Yes. Oh, and they're like, it's not even their job to pull out the words, but they're pulling out like the most chef's kiss perfect headlines and like branding statements. I would rather have that than

Sara Joelle 26:09

I would also rather have like a brand designer's or a brand strategist's work obviously than a bot. But I also think like even with the guide, it's hard... And maybe I'm just a copywriter, so just like this is something that lives in my brain, and if I weren't a writer, I would find this helpful. But I don't really see how people like then go use it. Like you found out that your voice was playful, and like then you... Like, I include sample sentences in mine, so you can literally see how to do it. And then I'm writing like I don't know what, if you make them period or what you include on yours. But mine is like quite lengthy, and I know we're talking shit about lengthy ones. But it has like bio for every single situation. It has, your potential tagline options, mission statement options, like a whole guide about your voice. But I would say mine is honestly more focused on who your audience is, who your competitors are. I do a big competitive research one in mine. And then like sample copy. And then I have one page about the voice. But if it's like fucking 30 pages about the voice, I don't know. I just feel like what are you using that for?

Sam @ Nomad Copy 27:07

Well, and people will be like, "Oh, I have a really, like, authentic, playful, like, educational voice." It's like, the fuck does that mean, though? I need examples of what that is, examples of what that isn't. But yeah, somebody will send me something and they're like, "Here's my brand voice guide." And it's like, okay, but, like, do you use emojis? Like, this is important for me if I'm writing your emails. I need to know, like, what's approved here or not.

Sara Joelle 27:29

Right.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 27:30

What...

Sara Joelle 27:30

It's

Sam @ Nomad Copy 27:30

Can I say the F word?

Sara Joelle 27:32

right. Can we fucking swear? Actually, it was so funny. I had a client the other day, he was like, "I really like your website and it makes sense for you, but I'm a child therapist, so just so you know, I won't be swearing." And I was like, "Thank you." Like, I gathered that, but thank you for bringing it up. It's fair- like, people will have to break the news to me, like, "Just so you know, no swearing on my site," 'cause I have so much on mine, 'cause that is just how I talk. Like, it's just me being authentic. But I think it's funny when my client's like, "By the way..." And I have to be like... Like, obviously I'm not gonna be an asshole and be like, "Yeah, I know that." It's like, I know we're not swearing on your site. Like, I appreciate that you're making this clear to me. It's just funny that they have to, like, break the news. No swearing.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 28:09

Yeah, yeah. No, it's not news to me that you and I are not the same person.

Sara Joelle 28:12

yeah, which I do feel like

Sam @ Nomad Copy 28:14

That

Sara Joelle 28:14

I don't know how you feel about this, me interviewing you now, I feel like sometimes people like my voice and they're like, "I want you, but my version. Like, I want you, but my industry." And I'm like, "All right,

Sam @ Nomad Copy 28:25

Mm-hmm.

Sara Joelle 28:26

could do that."

Sam @ Nomad Copy 28:26

Yeah

Sara Joelle 28:27

say that to you?

Sam @ Nomad Copy 28:28

Yeah, I get that a lot, especially for emails, is like, I want my emails to sound like I'm writing a note to a friend the way that yours do. Which I can do. The way that I describe that to people is like, Picasso is not Van Gogh. So, like, I just don't work in, like, med tech because I am just, like, way too fun for

Sara Joelle 28:46

Yeah

Sam @ Nomad Copy 28:47

I don't have a strong niche, I wouldn't say. But yeah, I get that a lot and it's like, I can, Picasso in blue, I can Picasso in green, I can Picasso in red, right? But I cannot Van Gogh, is the way that I see it. 'Cause, I'm not for everyone, and that's okay.

Sara Joelle 29:02

Period

Sam @ Nomad Copy 29:03

And, the way that I write for myself is the way that I love to write. So if you want really long-form homepages,

Sara Joelle 29:11

If you want

Sam @ Nomad Copy 29:12

find somebody else.

Sara Joelle 29:13

Yeah, I don't-- I would

Sam @ Nomad Copy 29:14

Yeah

Sara Joelle 29:15

don't even have a brand voice. I just have a voice that you're hearing through the brand. Like, I've never developed any sort of brand guide, any sort of anything for myself. Like, my voice is only documented through what I've written

Sam @ Nomad Copy 29:26

I did once because I was trying to see what the hype was about with Claude.

Sara Joelle 29:31

Okay. Did it work? Did you

Sam @ Nomad Copy 29:32

And so I like

Sara Joelle 29:33

did it

Sam @ Nomad Copy 29:33

tried creating a... No. No.

Sara Joelle 29:36

Okay.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 29:37

Like,

Sara Joelle 29:37

one

Sam @ Nomad Copy 29:38

and like

Sara Joelle 29:38

that

Sam @ Nomad Copy 29:38

How much time do I have to spend to save time using a tool like that just doesn't quite click with me. I'd rather

Sara Joelle 29:45

I

Sam @ Nomad Copy 29:46

take the time to sit down for a couple hours and like write.

Sara Joelle 29:49

it to spend the

Sam @ Nomad Copy 29:49

Yeah

Sara Joelle 29:50

Am impatient and neurodivergent, period. Like, I don't even wanna train a person, let alone a tool, so

Sam @ Nomad Copy 29:56

Gosh, you said something a few minutes ago and it totally... I should've taken notes.

Sara Joelle 29:59

I say? I'd be saying a lot

Sam @ Nomad Copy 30:00

Oh, so you train copywriters. Do you train them on business or do you train them on how to write better copy? And I ask in the context of I teach non-copywriters how to write better copy. So I'm curious, like, where our philosophies kind of cross over there

Sara Joelle 30:17

The simplest way to answer the question would probably be business. Like, I teach them how to run a copywriting business. But if they need help with copy, then we talk about that as well. So every Friday I do Feedback Friday, and they submit their copy to me, and then I'll edit it, and then I'll explain why I changed the thing or I'll tell them what needs to be fixed. So I feel like, yes, I'm also teaching them how to write better copy, but it's through editing what they've written. Like I a copywriting course, a website copywriting course, and I have a copywriting basics module in that. The copywriting basics you could just buy on its own. But none of the people in that group program did it that way. That's why I'm saying it like this. So I don't teach about that. I do have a live program I teach twice a year about how to write website copy, and that part is writing copy. But yeah, I would say I focus more on business and then, the copywriting skills come from the editing

Sam @ Nomad Copy 31:04

Yeah. 'Cause I've run into it where I would love to hire a junior copywriter, and I have a complex where I don't think anybody is as good as me for the specific clients that I serve.

Sara Joelle 31:14

I can

Sam @ Nomad Copy 31:15

Yes, tell me.

Sara Joelle 31:16

that your fear is true. Because if you feel like that, well, for two reasons. Number one, if you feel like that, nobody's ever gonna be good enough for you. Like, if you genuinely believe nobody is gonna be you, then, like, nobody's gonna be you And that is just your truth, and that is also my truth. And then the second reason I know it's true is because I tried that. So a million years ago, and by a million, I mean, like, five, I tried the concept of, like, working with a junior copywriter, and I worked with three different people, and I tried to have them, do some white label work for me. And I always was transparent with the client at the time, by the way. I feel strongly about that. Some people aren't, and that's weird to me. But any time I've ever, white labeled anything, I've told the client, and they've been like, "Cool." 'Cause I'll always edit the final product anyway, and they've been like, "Sick, two copywriters for the price of one." And then I pay that person their full rate. So I don't do that anymore, but just for context. Anywho, nobody was ever me, and they suck I was pissed. But obviously, if you're trying to work with a junior copywriter, clearly they're not at your level, because if they were at your level, they would be charging the same as you, and they wouldn't be white labeling. And it's not, their problem that they're not at that point in their journey, you know what I mean? It's also not their problem that they don't have your same writing style, don't have your same, knowledge, don't have the same brain as you, whatever. I'm not trying to be offensive to the junior writer. But it requires a lot of training, I think, if you want them to be you, and they just can't. So I decided very quickly, that I absolutely do not wanna do that, 'cause it's more work for you to train the person and then edit their work. And then also, one time, I had the person not send it to me on time, like, that I needed it, and I was like, "Oh, my God, now I have to do the whole thing," when I had, mentally not had to do anything for that. And it's just so much management. I hate managing people because I'm a very right now person. I'm impatient. I want it done right now, and I want it done the right way, so which means I have to do it. So I found that it's better for me to outsource other stuff, like the admin stuff, the tech stuff, whatever. So that's what I did.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 33:03

Mm-hmm.

Sara Joelle 33:04

Junior writer,

Sam @ Nomad Copy 33:05

Yeah, that's exactly where I am at. I admire people who... Like, it sounds like you can train people not only on the business but on the copy skills, and I admire that. I love that you can do that. And yeah, I was once an agency. My website still says agency and it's not because

Sara Joelle 33:20

Where agency like,

Sam @ Nomad Copy 33:21

it's hard. It's hard

Sara Joelle 33:22

Yeah, it's a lot of work, and I feel people do it 'cause they think they have to scale that way to make more money.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 33:27

Mm-hmm

Sara Joelle 33:27

I wanna keep all of my money. What do you mean? Like, I don't wanna pay anybody out. The idea of having more volume more things to manage, like in theory, cool, you make more money, but like not really. You have to pay all of these people, and it's so much time.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 33:40

Yeah.

Sara Joelle 33:41

But what do you

Sam @ Nomad Copy 33:42

Yeah. It comes back to the, like, raise your prices conversation.

Sara Joelle 33:44

yeah

Sam @ Nomad Copy 33:45

I think, if people can do it and they like the management and all of that, great, go do it. There's nothing in my eyes that's unethical about running an agency. It just was not for me 'cause exactly like you said, the time and the stress that it took from me did not decrease by having somebody else do it, But, the money for me decreased, and I was like, "Well, this is

Sara Joelle 34:08

"I hate everything."

Sam @ Nomad Copy 34:09

silly goose behavior. Yeah, no, not doing this."

Sara Joelle 34:11

if it's something you like and something you're good at, more power to you, queen. Go ahead, with your agency. That's

Sam @ Nomad Copy 34:16

Yeah.

Sara Joelle 34:17

For me, no

Sam @ Nomad Copy 34:17

Okay, let's wrap up. I have no more squirrel questions for you. But what... Scream something from the rooftops. Give us a mini rant.

Sara Joelle 34:25

A mini

Sam @ Nomad Copy 34:25

What's on your mind before we wrap about copy?

Sara Joelle 34:28

Oh my God, I have so many that it could be. Well, I'll give you my, like classic go-to. Somebody asked me a question on a podcast mini rant 'cause I'm really trying to spread the good word about this one. your about page headline says about, we have a problem, you and me, personal beef, because you can do better, and I would like you to act that way. About me, about us, meet the team, our story, get the fuck out of my face with that. That's what I'm screaming from the rooftops because you can do better, you can make it better, and you can...

Sam @ Nomad Copy 34:59

Tell me better. Give me examples

Sara Joelle 35:00

okay, I have an example ready to go. One of my clients a million years ago, this time the million years I'm referencing was probably three. was a photographer, and she really wanted to communicate that you could feel comfortable in front of her camera, okay? This particular photographer, she was cool and fun, and she mentioned somewhere, I think it was on her questionnaire, she like doesn't want people to have to ask what should they do with their hands. So I have to pull her website up to like give you the direct quote, but her about page headline literally says, "What should I do with my hands?" And the reason I'm giving that as an example is because like obviously it's so niche and specific, it's not like something you can copy. It says, "Wedding elopement and family photography for people who wanna stop wondering, 'What should I do with my hands?'"

Sam @ Nomad Copy 35:43

Mm-hmm

Sara Joelle 35:43

it's good because it's attention grabbing, and the what should I do with my hands for context, like if you're a visual person, is big, and then the everything I read before that is tiny and on top. So your eyes will go to the what should I do with my hands first, because everybody has dealt with that struggle of like, "Okay, what the fuck should I do with my hands?" And they don't wanna look fucking weird in their wedding photos. So everybody can find an experience like that and use it. Like none of it's gonna be a template for anybody to use. Like it's all gonna be specific to you. You know what I mean?

Sam @ Nomad Copy 36:12

No, I totally do. And what I like that you did there is you still had the keywords of like wedding and elopement photographer. Like you're still being pragmatic about it. It's not all personality, but when somebody reads it, they're gonna see personality before they see pragmatism

Sara Joelle 36:27

And I feel like another example, I wrote a website for a dietician, and hers says, "You don't wanna work with a registered dietician who tells you to skip happy hour." And then under that it says, "Or shames you for anything related to food, alcohol, or fun for that matter." And again, focusing on their very specific, unique experience that you know they're having or they're feeling when they come to your site. So, definitely don't have to skip the keyword of it all, although I am of the opinion that, unless somebody is googling about Sarah Joelle, my About page should not be the thing that's ranking. You're need to be the best answer to the question, the best solution to the problem. If my About page was not SEO optimized and it was, optimized for the reader instead, I feel like that would be fine. your homepage and your services page were showing up for what you wanted them to show up for

Sam @ Nomad Copy 37:10

Yeah. And, especially in the last month, there have been so many changes in the SEO conversation that it's so important to... Like, anybody can Google, "Find me a good US-based copywriter,"

Sara Joelle 37:22

Right

Sam @ Nomad Copy 37:23

like looking for a woman, like whatever, and you and me and a thousand of our best friends would show up, like, in that Google search or that AI search. So having the, like, personality in there, having the, like, the long-tail keywords and the way that people are searching for things right now is like, "I just want an elopement photographer who's gonna make me feel really good about myself, who's gonna tell me what to do with my hands," da, da, da, da, da. Like, people are searching in paragraphs at this point. So the, the copy itself is the standout factor. It, it's, it's always this is the copy and podcast, right? It's the copy and SEO, the copy and the personality, the way that everything ties together. That was such a good rant.

Sara Joelle 38:06

That's it.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 38:07

Tell me what?

Sara Joelle 38:07

I said add some of

Sam @ Nomad Copy 38:08

Oh yeah, tell me yourself.

Sara Joelle 38:09

Yeah.

Sam @ Nomad Copy 38:10

Yes.

Sara Joelle 38:11

Period

Sam @ Nomad Copy 38:12

Period, 100%. Sarah, thank you for coming on. The classic end of podcast question is tell us where we can learn more about you

Sara Joelle 38:20

where can you find me? You can go to betweenthelinescopy.com/links and you're gonna find everything. I also have a podcast if you're interested. It's called Point of the Story. You can find that, you know, anywhere, or betweenthelinescopy.com/podcast. And I yap my ass off on Threads. I would say if you want to see, the most active platform, I'm BTL Copy everywhere. Not to be confused with BLT. I am a copywriter and not a sandwich. And that's that

Sam @ Nomad Copy 38:43

We love it. Thank you for coming on

Sara Joelle 38:45

for having me. Bye friends