Peri-Normal

The Hormonal Accelerant: How Midlife Brings Patterns to the Surface with Dana Bowman

• Stephanie Sprenger

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Steph talks to Dana Bowman, author and TedX speaker, about midlife, recovery, hormones, and identity.

• Sobriety & Motherhood - Getting sober while raising young kids and navigating wine culture

• Perimenopause as a Catalyst - How hormonal changes during perimenopause can reveal underlying issues and trigger addictive patterns

• Process Addictions - Understanding addictions beyond substances (scrolling, sugar, exercise, gambling) and how they emerge during life transitions

• The Medical Gap - Why doctors often miss or dismiss perimenopause symptoms, especially for women in recovery

• Identity Shifts + Invisible Woman Syndrome - Going gray, aging, and redefining yourself at midlife

• Anxiety & Panic - Middle-of-the-night breathing issues, panic attacks, and other lesser-known perimenopause symptoms

• Creative Healing - Using writing, creativity, and self-expression as tools for recovery and self-understanding

• Getting Curious vs. Getting Critical - Approaching your struggles with curiosity instead of shame

• "Be Gentle with Yourself and the Horse" - Learning to extend grace during difficult transitions

Takeaway: Midlife hormonal changes can act as an accelerant for whatever's bubbling beneath the surface. Instead of shame, get curious about what your body and behaviors are trying to tell you.

Meet Dana: 

Dana Bowman is the author of three books. Humble Pie: Addiction, Recovery, and Dessert was published in November of 2025 by Bloomsbury Press. Her two memoirs, Bottled, A Mom’s Guide to Early Recovery, and How To Be Perfect Like Me, were both published by Central Recovery Press. Bottled was selected as a Kansas Notable Book in 2018.

A TEDx speaker, writer for Psychology Today, and occasional stand-up comedian, she shares about beating shame, kicking addictions, and how going gray changed her life. 

Dana has collected numerous awards for her humorous writing, and she earned the moniker of “The Erma Bombeck of alcoholics” from her first publisher, a descriptor she is very proud to carry. Her goal is to provide hope, along with a good laugh and a good story, to help heal the addict within all of us. 

You can find out more about her over at danabowmancreative.com  or at all the socials (even TikTok because she is cool) at @thedanabow

Dana's Books:

Midlife, A DHD can be scary. But it doesn't have to be. Here on paranormal, we are demystifying neurodivergence and perimenopause. Plus, with candid conversations and advice from experts, join me for a no holds barred exploration of what it means to be neurodivergent at midlife. Let's redefine normal together. I'm Steph Springer, and this is paranormal. Welcome back to the Paranormal Podcast. on today's episode, I am speaking with Dana Bowman. We're talking about addiction. We're talking about recovery. Dana explains process addiction to me and talks about what happened when she hit Perry and menopause, and. How this stage of our life hormonally can serve as almost an accelerant for whatever other issues are going on underneath the surface. Dana is the author of three books, humble Pie, addiction Recovery and Dessert. Was published in November of 2025 by Bloomsbury Press. Her two Memoirs Bottled A Mom's Guide to Early Recovery and How to Be Perfect Like Me, were both published by Central Recovery Press. Bottled was selected as a Kansas notable book in 2018. A TEDx speaker writer for Psychology Today, an occasional standup comedian Dana shares about beating, shame, kicking addictions, and how going Gray changed her life. Dana has collected numerous awards for her humorous writing, and she earned the moniker, the Irma Bombeck of Alcoholics from her first publisher. A descriptor she is very proud to carry. Her goal is to provide hope along with a good laugh and a good story to help heal the addict within all of us. So dig in for a raw, honest conversation about perimenopause, menopause, addiction, and how to thrive in this stage of life. Welcome to the podcast Dana.

Dana

thank you so much for having me on the show. I really appreciate this. I always love a good podcast and yours is one of the best in terms of talking about menopausal topics and all of that fun stuff. I am Dana Bowman. I'm an author and a teacher. Um, and I. Speak about and write about all sorts of topics. But the real, um, gist for me was way back in 2018, which was about four years after I got sober, I wrote a book called Bottled and, and it's a book about. Getting sober while you have little kids. So, uh, some people would say in terms of mom hood and, uh, especially with wine culture and all of that, that, that's just impossible. Um, but I had to do it for me, for my journey, and then I ended up writing a book about it. Um, and then I have another book that came out after that about a relapse that occurred called How to Be Perfect Like Me. Um, both of those are, well, you know, regarded in the recovery circles, but. Strangely enough, I got older, you know, time passed, and as I was going into, uh, COVID and those wonderful, that wonderful foray into COVID and the isolation, the awfulness of that, um, I actually started experiencing what I didn't know at the time was, perimenopausal symptoms. I didn't go to the doctor for it because I was avoiding the doctor, like everyone. And, uh. I went into this deep dark hole of all these horrible symptoms that kept happening that I didn't understand. Um, they started hitting up against my recovery and my, and my sober journey. And all of that was just quite a challenge and, and quite a walk. Um, and because of that, it took some time. I. Joke this, I mean, this book is the one that I'm most proud of. It took me six years to write, so it was definitely a journey. Um, that's what Humble Pie is the result of, and the big long title for Humble Pie is, um, humble Pie, sober Menopause, sugar Addiction, and the Sweetness of Recovery, which kind of describes kind of what, what I was up against and what I am up against, so,

Steph

I love the subtitle. I think it, it's, yeah, it says a lot. And

Dana

yes.

Steph

I, okay. I'm taking this about

Dana

a lot,

Steph

I'm sure. And I'm, I'm taking this all in. So, okay. So to begin, so you had little kids when you first Yes. Stopped drinking?

Dana

Yes. The whole deal was, um, with bottled, I, uh, grew up in a home in recovery. My dad got sober when I was just about two or three years old. I have alcoholism all throughout my family. And of course, and this is just the really quick, I'm giving you like the quick background. So this is like the liner notes and, uh. I just kept thinking I was too smart for that. I, I was an a plus perfectionistic kid, which turned into an A plus perfectionistic, totally messed up codependent young adult. Um, and because of those tendencies, I just thought I could outsmart, um, any sort of addicted profile and any sort of addicted behavior. Come to find out I wasn't smart enough for it. I, I actually didn't really, there's a chapter in bottle called I didn't Dance on tables. Um, I wasn't like a problematic blackout party girl by any means. In fact, my story was pretty much I drank, if I drank, um, it was by myself. I didn't want anyone to see, like me out of control. I wanted to have a very perfectionistic. Just happy little boxed up life, everything tidy, right. Um, and I kept that going and wore a lot of masks. I was a teacher, a high school English teacher for many years and I was really good at it. I will just say that right now. I, I will come out and say that everything on the outside looked pretty darn, um, perfect. And. Do you remember like watching those acts with the people that would spin the plates like that, that old fashioned act where they'd spin the plates? I sure that was me. I sure do. Yep. Okay.

Steph

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Dana

Spinning the plates and I was keeping those plates spinning for a long time. And then what happened is I got married kind of later in life. My husband and I joked, we got married at like 36 and 37, so we're like nearly dead. We always. Joke that we were like with our walkers walking down the aisle, the geriatric

Steph

marriage, like they called the

Dana

geriatric. Yes. The geriatric marriage and yeah.

Steph

Great.

Dana

Congratulations.

Steph

Mm-hmm.

Dana

We made it, you know, and, um, I figured pretty much that, um, from marriage and there on, we moved, I started teaching at another high school that everything was just bliss. Um, but because of the stress of that, my drinking was kind of going up. And, uh, then I had kids and kids, uh, if you didn't know, um, it's in their contract that they are not going to like fit into your perfect little life and keep everything tidy. Yep. Um, and so they kind of blew me out of the water in terms of like motherhood and the isolation of that. I quit my teaching job. I was home. Um. And I just got very, very depressed. I had postpartum with both kids. Um, but actually when I look back, I, I kind of wonder, was it postpartum or was it just alcoholic tendencies, like coming to the surface?

Steph

Well, you know, it's interesting. You, you talk about like the first, like you got sober after having kids and had some struggles right. Around perimenopause. These things aren't an accident. I mean, we talk a lot about a DH, adhd. On this podcast and how many women are diagnosed with A DHD either after having kids or during perimenopause, because when hormonally, the wheels come off the wagon, anything else that's bubbling under the surface is suddenly going to become unmanageable. It's almost like a catalyst.

Dana

Well, I'll show up. Yeah, it'll show up. And I, I always felt like, um, it's a catalyst. Exactly. Um, I don't want people to think that I'm like blaming my children for, you know, what happened to no.'cause it certainly wasn't on them, but they just, they just kinda, um, scratched the surface and opened up the wound that was already kind of festering there. And my, as soon as I was done breastfeeding and all of that, my drinking just went off the charts. It was really scary. And within about two years, I was hiding. You know, vodka in my upstairs closet and, and really was off the charts an alcoholic, full on, and, and then went into recovery and got sober. Um, all of that to say, I, I wrote two books about that. And then I talked about, you know, the whole journey with that. And this is what happens sometimes. Um, alcoholism is really tricky and is any addiction is really tricky because it will constantly tell you that you don't have it. Um, so for example, if you got cancer and you were really sick from cancer, cancer would not keep trying to tell you that you didn't have cancer. Um, you would know it, you'd have the diagnosis, you know, the doctors would be treating you, et cetera. But with addiction, uh, addiction just messes with your mind in the sense that you're just constantly playing this game of, no, I'm fine. Everything's. Okay. I've been sober now for so many years like that, that was me when COVID happened. Right. And, and once again, um, and this is kind of what I focus on in the book is that recovery change and, and life changes. Like you said, when we, when we have the PerMon menopausal symptoms and things like that, it, it's a symptom and then it just unfolds and, and reveals new stuff underneath. That we have to start dealing with. That's a perfect way to describe it. It was tough.

Steph

Yeah. Yes. That these big transitional moments for women that are both like significant in terms of where we are in life, but also hormonally, like, I think we cannot underestimate how bound we are to our hormonal fluctuations and cycles. And, and reveal is really the perfect word, right? Because it, it does, it makes it impossible to hide things anymore. You just simply can't.

Dana

It goes back to identity and I just kept, I kept writing and thinking about that. My identity when I first got sober, the identity thing was all about the new mom. Being a new mom, being a perfect new mom, like, you know, making the organic homemade, uh, pureed vegetables for their, you know, and making sure they never had sugar and making sure they were always alive and like, you know, it was just so. Much about the perfect mom. And then as soon as menopause happened, I mean, and then there was this lull in between there where you're just trucking along and you're a mom. And I, I kind of got comfortable in my recovery and I kind of got comfortable with my life and then menopause happened and it just shook everything up. It, I went gray. I, that was a choice. By the way, and I, I allowed my hair to, to go gray. I ended up doing a TED Talk about it, which was crazy'cause I think I'm the only TED talk out there. It was a TEDx talk and it was about going gray and my identity as a woman and what that did to my identity. It was crazy and I loved how amazing love. I loved that. Yeah. I love that. I did it because it was actually pretty well received and a lot of women responded. Were like the whole going gray thing. Um, oh, we'll

Steph

link to that in the show notes for sure.

Dana

Yeah. It was fun. It was a, it was a crazy thing, but it was fun. Um, and going gray, getting older, starting to wrinkle, starting to like, not think of yourself as this young, sexy thing anymore. And, and you're, you can kind of get stuck in some really big, um. I mean, I'm sure every woman can relate. The whole getting older process for women is hard. Like we're supposed to be defy age. Like what, what, what do we hear about on every commercial in terms of like a facial moisturizer? You know, you have to defy age, you have to beat it. You have to make sure you're still young and pretty if you're gonna get irrelevant older, do it pretty, you know, whatever you try to do. So I had that hitting me. And then my recovery also was like. I had become, perhaps, I don't wanna say apathetic about my recovery, but it had become comfortable. And then as I was going into these menopausal symptoms, one of my biggest ones was anxiety in middle of the night. Mm-hmm. Gasping for air, not able to breathe. Um. Doom, like this whole, uh, like three in the morning, um, I would be swept with these horrible feelings of I'm gonna die. I mean, it was just off the charts and I'd never had panic attacks or anxiety like that before, and I could remember getting up. And walking down our hall and at the end of our hall there's a bathroom and it looks out to this, there's a church right across from the back of our house and there's a little stained glass window of an angel. And I would just stare at that angel and be like, what is happening? I want to die, or I feel like I'm gonna die. Mm-hmm. And when I was drinking. I used to, and the babies were up in the middle of the night or whatever. I used to take those babies and I would walk'em down the hall and I would stare out at that angel. And it was like the exact same feelings were happening, the anxiousness, the lack of sleep, the sweat, um, all of the aches and pains that were coming back. And I was like, I feel like I'm drinking again. I feel like this is like a shame hangover happening. Like,

Steph

oh wow.

Dana

It's, it's bringing up a lot of the same. Literally physical feelings, physical bodily feelings, but also a lot of the anxiousness and depression that I dealt with when I was in my last days of drinking and my early days of sobriety too. It was mm-hmm. It, it just brought it all back and it was the first time since, I don't know, since early recovery or mid mid recovery when I had had that thought. You know, what would solve this is you could just have a glass of wine. And I hadn't had those thoughts in ages in years, really. Um, like I said, I got sober in 2014. And I actually got sober in 2011 and was sober for three years and then relapsed. That's what my second book is about. Mm-hmm. And then I sober. Sober from 2014 on, so it's been some time. Right. And to have that thought again, it was so, I know I wasn't gonna do it. I knew in my head I'm not, I'm not, you know, one day at a time I'm not gonna drink again. But all of that addicted, um. Tricky, slick sticky behavior and thoughts was coming back and it hit me like a truck and I was really, I was really floundering for a while, and because of that, I started participating in what I, what is called process addictions, which are. Addictions that are a process as opposed to being addicted to a physical, um, thing like alcohol or drugs. I started participating in like scrolling endlessly, right? Um, eating endlessly. That's a process, you know? Um, right. The gambling. Okay.

Steph

Yeah.

Dana

All of that and it, it just went off the charts. Yeah.

Steph

Okay. That makes sense. I hadn't heard that term before. The process addiction. That makes a lot of sense. And is that where the, the sugar addiction in your Yes. In your subtitle came into play? Yes.

Dana

I actually go through a lot of processes, addictions in my book, like risk taking, gambling. I didn't gamble, but I gambled with other things and, and talked about that as well. But the main one for me was food. And I, I sort of went off the charts in terms of eating sugar addiction, gained a lot of weight, did all that, um. And I found myself, like one of the, one of the stories I tell, which is funny to me now, but was really humiliating at the time, was that I was binging on food. Um, I wasn't binging and purging, but I was just binging out. And then like the next day I would exercise like crazy and do all of that. Um. And kind of, that was another process addiction where I was like madly exercising to try to deal with the fact that I was binging at night and I had been eating a bunch of Reese's peanut butter cups and there were wrappers literally that I shoved under my mattress, which'cause I didn't want anybody to know and it was embarrassing and I felt like an idiot. And then my sweet son found them and just'cause he was, I had asked him to vacuum or something and he came down the hall and he was looking at me with this. Quizzical expression and had in his hand a bunch of rappers, and it's kind of silly. And he just looked at me and he goes, you owe me a bunch of Reese's. I was like, I, yeah. Um, I said to him out loud, which I was proud of. I said, mom's got kind of a problem with sugar right now. And that was the first time I said it out loud to someone. Granted, I was saying it to my young son, which I mean, I don't know how much of that he really processed, but, um, to say it out loud in that moment was embarrassing. But also I had a moment where I, I thought to myself, you just said that out loud, like you just finally. Came forth, and that's what helped me with my initial sobriety was that I finally, after all of this horrific addicted alcoholic drinking, I finally had my lowest point. And in my moment of surrender, I called my husband and said, I can't, I can't quit. And said the words out loud, you know what I mean? Finally got it out. Something kind of flipped in that moment. A switch was flipped and I said, I've gotta start squaring up with sugar and they, I need to like understand what's happening to me right now. And that's when I started thinking about it all.

Steph

Okay. What you said, like, not I've gotta stop eating. I have to understand what's happening to me. Right. That is such a different paradigm than, than a shame paradigm. Yeah. Like, oh, I'm, I'm gaining weight. This isn't healthy. I'm, I have to stop this. It's gonna be

Dana

all carrots from here on. You

Steph

know, like, yeah, no, I need to figure out, I need to understand myself and

Dana

yeah.

Steph

I think at midlife that is. I think we don't do that often enough. I think we're critical of our own behaviors and habits. I think we think about where we should be, what we need to be doing, what's on our list, what we've failed at,

Dana

what's on, what's on the list, and let's get a list going.

Steph

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But not. But not, I want to figure out what's happening inside me.

Dana

Exactly.

Steph

You must have done so much work to get to that point where that was the, that was what you needed to solve was I need to understand myself and my system.

Dana

Yeah. And it took me a long time even after that.'cause I am a real, like, as I talked about my perfectionist qualities, um. Prior to this, there had been lots of times where I'm like, that's it. I'm gonna get rid of all the chocolate and the sugar. And I would throw it all out and I'll be like, it's going to be carrots and like kale soup for a whole week. And I would do those over the top, which is exactly what I did with the alcohol. Like, I did the same things. I'd throw out the alcohol and I'd be like, I'm not gonna drink. And then of course I would fall apart and, and, you know, end up bing out again. And the, when I finally kind of decided that it, it wasn't like I had this huge. Moment where I'm like, okay, like this is it. It just kind of came to me naturally. I think my body was exhausted and had gone through so many ups and downs of trying to stop and then, you know, benching out again. And then the shame and the secrecy where my body and I just sort of decided to hang out with each other and I was, I told myself. If you're gonna binge out, that's fine. Let's just do it and let's let people know and let's explain what's going on and just do it. And if you, if you have to, fine. And we're gonna try to see what, you know, what's going on with your head. And I started researching and I started writing about it and, um, kind of went on a journey in that. That took me a long time because menopausal stuff is not explained very well in the scientific community. And a lot of the information that's out there that I was trying to find, I mean, there are books and I, and I'm really grateful for all of them and I have some great ones, but it took a while, like. And even like trying to talk to my doctor was just a joke. I hate to say it, but

Steph

this is no, this is, this has come up time and time again on this podcast. Yeah. That, that we are the ones, we are doing the research. Yeah. It's on us. We're, we're asking for the scripts. We are like, we're finding other people who can give us a script of say this to your doctor. We're we are passing the word around between our friends. No one has prepared us for this. No one's talked about it. Our doctors aren't bringing it up to us in our thirties and in our forties and saying, okay, be prepared for this. And one of my last guests, and I said, yeah, like imagine if this was menopause. Yes. And, and, and how? Like, oh my God, you better believe we'd all be prepared for menopause. There would be

Dana

a booklet. There'd be a flyer or something. There be some preparation. Yeah.

Steph

Now we have to know the secret knock. We have to know, we have to be ready to make understanding our bodies and our brains at this stage of life. It has to be our full-time job. Forget the fact that we also have jobs and families and homes. Now you're also your own researcher,

Dana

yeah, it's very frustrating and it's just darn right rude because like I, you get so much layered on you already as a woman. And then I remember just kind of yelling at my husband, like, I have enough to do. I don't have time to try to figure this out. Like he's, because he was the ones like. You need to figure this out. And I'm like, why? It's a medical thing, right? Like why can't, I was never told about menopause. I was never, it was never explained to me. I was never warned. I was never given, you know, and I had to look all that up myself. I had to do all the reading. And then of course there's like incorrect information out there, right? And so it was very frustrating'cause I felt like I have enough to do in my damn life. I don't need another thing to do on top of everything else.

Steph

Exactly it. And then I'll, I'll, you know, take to my personal doctor chat, GPT and be like,

Dana

yes,

Steph

you know, blah, blah, blah, blah is happening. What could that be? And it's sort of like, um. Like, well, you might need more estrogen or you might have too much estrogen. I'm like, well, that's just great. Terrific. Not helpful. Thank you. So, no, I mean, and that's the thing. It's like there aren't easy answers and we aren't able to monitor our hormones. 24 7 there, it's, there's not like a. I mean, and everyone's different. Everyone has different chemistry and I mean, the fact is there just has not been research and money and science going into understanding what happens to women at this stage of our life because frankly, it's not important societally. Um, not, yeah, I do think Gen X women are changing that. I think we are demanding. I mean, and when you look around, it's like there are a lot of podcasters and like there are doctors on Instagram. There are like, mm-hmm. Now it's a little easier to find. It's like, oh, follow these three people and subscribe to their newsletters. Right. Uhhuh,

Dana

you get three. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and, and those are great. And I'm really grateful that it's changing, but I have to admit, like it was the same. I keep coming up with like the similarities between when I got sober and when this happened. Yeah. Because it was the same thing. I would go to my doctors and I finally fessed up and said, look, I'm sober now, um, and I'm, and this, and this is happening, or I'm feeling this or should I be taking this medication? And they treated me, first of all with, it was. Kind of shaming that, the, the way they treated me. And it was also really clear that the doctor that I had at least was not, did not understand sobriety or recovery at all. And so just didn't really have anything to tell me. Um, and I felt sort of lost, like, why did I even tell him? That I was sober. It didn't really change anything in terms of what's going on with me, but I feel like I'm going crazy. Um, and then the same thing happened when I, when I spent a puzzle. I'm like, what's going on with this? Of course, I also shot myself in the foot because, because of my symptoms. Being during COVID and avoiding my doctor for like a year, I came in there finally and was like, look, I'm having these crazy hot sweats. I'm waking up gasping for air. My main thing was like the breathing, my throat would close up and I couldn't breathe, um, which is a symptom of menopause. I found out and I thought I was like having, I, I didn't know what was going on and they had absolutely no help for me in terms of, um, what to do or they wanted to give me anti-anxiety medication, which. I understand like it's an anxiety thing, but the word menopause was never even mentioned until about my first appointment.

Steph

So you felt like you couldn't breathe? Yes. And And that's something that actually happens in menopause. I didn't know that.

Dana

Yeah. It's another symptom. It, it's one of those that's like in terms of the most prevalent symptoms you get the hot sweats, you get like everyone kind of jokes about menopause and talks about hot sweats. That's the thing. It's the trigger word. But for me, the middle of the night breathing issue where I would be gasping for air and I felt like I was choking and dying, it's, it's, um, it was a closing of my throat and it was happening in terms because of anxiety and also hormonal shifts in the middle of the night. Um, and I was, I had to. Find out that myself, I had to do some research on my own, um, and figured it out. There isn't really anything I could do for it except take anxiety medication, um, which didn't really work for me. But the main thing that I found in terms of at least having the conversation is that the doctors kind of treated me like I was either making it up or I, um, was making too big of a deal out of it and that, oh my god. Yeah, it's the same with my sobriety. It was not,

Steph

well, aren't you precious about your breathing?

Dana

Yeah, I know. Geez. You feel like you're dying. Well, okay, so and then that was the other part that I had a hard time with in terms of addicted mindset and being, um, a woman who's, you know, in recovery and is sober, they wanted to give me all these heavy, heavy, um, a lot of. S medications I don't really wanna touch because they're things that I could kind of get addicted to in terms of how they would make me feel. I was trying to explain that and um, we just were not communicating well. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, I have a better doctor now and that's kind of helped the conversation, but I still, every time I go in. I can see her trying and I get it. Doctors are overwhelmed and overloaded and I don't wanna really just throw her under the bus, but there would be the same conversation. She'd be looking through the chart. She's like, okay, so I see that. You don't want this medication for this. Um, and I'm like, yes, because I'm sober to have the same conversation again. Um, and it just felt a little bit diminishing in terms of what I was dealing with. So,

Steph

mm-hmm.

Dana

Fun times, right? Trying to get medical help in terms of this hormonal stuff. And

Steph

so what, so what happened after that? And did you find, have you found help? Have you found relief and support?

Dana

Well, one of the main things I found a therapist. Okay. And she was amazing. In fact, she is a, I can't remember the difference between the psychologist and this and the, she's the one that could administer medication.

Steph

Psychiatrist

Dana

can do med. Yes. Psychiatrist. Thank you. She, and I don't know how I happened upon her. It was kind of like a miraculous like event where I found, and I, I write about her in the book and I say Everyone should have a Kayla Wirick. Like, I love my doctor. Um, because she sat me down and I started explaining all of this. Stuff and I thought we were just gonna talk about mental stuff, but then she goes, you know, there's like a really great, I, I was on anti-depressants, which I have been on since I've been in my twenties. And she's like, there's a great, um. And a depressant that's really helpful for menopausal women. And then there's also a great sleep, blah, blah, blah. That's great for menopausal. It's like she knew the information and it was really a godsend that I found her because she was able to sit me down and say, okay, first of all, all this stuff is okay and normal, and what you're going through is not crazy and you're not making it up. So she validated me and then she was able to find, um, medications that are. Helpful for a woman who's going through that hormone shift, and that really helped. And first of, in terms of my sleep, in terms of my mental state and the anxiety went away. Um, and honestly, I kind of think just because I had someone who listened to me and knew what it was that I was going through that helped

Steph

yes.

Dana

I was so strung out on feeling alone and isolated, and then having my Kayla as I call her come along, um, was super helpful. So yeah. And then on the flip side, I started writing like crazy. And one of my things that I pushed for or talk about a lot is that we need an outlet. Um, we need to be creative. Like you have your podcasts, that's your outlet, right? That's your, that's your moment where you're like creating this to help others, but it's also helping you, I'm assuming. Yeah, that's what I had. And, and the writing, we need something.

Steph

In January, I did a 12 week workshop with, for midlife women based on the Artist Way by Julia Cameron.

Dana

See?

Steph

That's

Dana

exactly,

Steph

yep. And it's be, it was like. It's, it's not just for real artists. You don't have to be a,

Dana

I

Steph

know. A painter.

Dana

Yes.

Steph

Or a writer. Or a sculptor. Or a musician, exactly. But it's basically bringing you back into alignment with your own creative flow.

Dana

We're all creative.

Steph

We are all creative. All creative.

Dana

Yes.

Steph

Yeah. And I think that women, especially, we get to this age and things are shifting in terms of our bodies and our responsibilities and our brains. And if we don't have something that brings us a sense of creativity or play or connection with ourselves, we are gonna become disconnected. You

Dana

know? Oh my gosh. You are preach. It's

Steph

essential.

Dana

The word. Mm-hmm. I, I write about that and I talk about it in, in the book. And I say, if we're not in line with something like. What happened for me during this period was I started to experience, for the first time in my life, I started to experience boredom because I wasn't as interested in the things that I used to love. And it was like my shifting hormones were taking joy away from me and kind of sucking the joy. I'm like, I used to love to read what's going on, like I'm not Yes, getting the same enjoyment out of it. Um, so for me, writing has always been the thing and I started writing again and that really like. It was sort of like, um, just allowed me to get this weird analogy, but it felt like my body just got excited and, and, and alive again. I got juicy again. I got interested in things again, and it really helped. And I, I say it like whenever I bring up creativity, I was talking to my dad who's like an ex farmer and I mean, he's just a business guy and he was like, well, I'm not creative, like, I don't know what you're talking about. And I said, dad, you used to take the lawnmower. They have a lawnmower. From like 1995 in their garage and he would go out there and tinker with it and fix it miraculously, like bring that thing back to life and all of those little things that you had judged and fixed, like that's creativity right there, right? Like it's amazing what. We write ourselves off if we're not out there sculpting something.

Steph

Right? Cooking can be creative, right? Yeah. Like creating a playlist for yourself can be creative,

Dana

you know, or, or the meals that you make or, you know, even just going on a walk and connecting with nature. Like all of that is stuff that really does help keep our soul aligned with our body. The physical with the absolutely spiritual and the mental. I wanna take your thing.

Steph

Oh my gosh, you should. It was, it was, yeah. It starts January 12th and we, when it's 12 weeks and it was like, I did the artist's way for the first time, like a year ago. Um. But doing it in a group and with midlife women, so it's like the lens is just different. Oh, I love that. And I, it's my favorite. I've been doing writing workshops for like over a decade, and this is my favorite one I've ever taught because it wasn't about how to be a better writer. It wasn't craft based. It was, it's like, how do you unlock yourself? How do you come back to yourself? Right? Like, how do you,

Dana

how do you align yourself? I always talk about

Steph

calibrate Yes. Alignment. Yes. How do we

Dana

calibrate?

Steph

Yes. Goosebump.

Dana

Excited.

Steph

No, it, it's, it was a juicy one and it was like, I feel like this is what we need at midlife is reminders. And like you said, something like almost coming back online in you. It's like things that had been dormant, started firing again. Oh,

Dana

love my gosh. Love that.

Steph

And maybe that's the way to keep us healthy. In a variety of context, whether we're talking about sobriety, whether we're talking about a process addiction, whether sugar or scrolling, which so many people

Dana

Oh yeah.

Steph

Have

Dana

talk about, I still, and I still do it, I, I, I want to elaborate or, or let people know here that I'm not like this fixed person. Like

Steph

right

Dana

when I wrote the book, I was going through it. Right. Yeah. And I still am, and there wasn't like some big huge, like I'm all fixed. I don't scroll anymore. I just scrolled this morning. Like I, I do it right, but it's not as bad and it's not as tied to shame. And there's so much more out there than these process addictions where we end up doing this stuff that we know we shouldn't, um, that I found. So that, I mean, it's been so helpful, but

Steph

Well, but you got to the root of what was you, you got to the root of it rather than just like

Dana

Yeah.

Steph

Judging a behavior you were doing and, and I think we are all, we are all going to do the wrong thing for our bodies and our lives and our schedules. We are going to consciously overbook ourselves. Yes. And we're going to avoid going through the closet. And we're going to eat a shit load of cookies one night, and we're gonna scroll and we're gonna dissociate. Like we cannot live in perfect healthful alignment every moment of the day. But it's like, but how's your foundation? And I think that's the question, right? How's your foundation? Exactly. What is it built on exactly? Is it built on understanding yourself and and self love? Is it built on being in alignment? Mm-hmm. Um. You know, that's

Dana

so true. And that's where, for me, that's where the addictive behaviors came from. Because I wasn't looking at myself, I wasn't allowing myself to really feel feelings. I wasn't allowing myself to really work on the foundation of Dana. Um, there was a lot of stuff from like my, just my childhood and my young adulthood that I didn't really wanna deal with. I didn't like to be, yeah, uncomfortable. I didn't like to deal with discomfort and pain. Um, and then because of that, and, and because I started out my life with this. Hardcore alcoholism, the addicted patterns kept happening with, with the food and the processes and all of that. But my theory, and this kind of sound kind of might kind of sound harsh, but it's not meant to be, is that we're all addicted to something. We all have addicted patterns in our lives. Um, and so when I finally got to a point where I could really accept that and look at data for who she is and try to work with her and. Forgive her. Like I just had to do a lot of grace with Dana. Mm-hmm. Um, no more black and white thinking. No more in terms of good, bad, like you've, it just took a lot of work. Um, but it really, really, it really helped and it resulted and I always feel like this is one of those moments of kismet where. Um, because of the work and because of the hard work. I have this book now and I wish I could hold it in my hands. I still haven't gotten the author's copies and I'm waiting. I'm so anxious. But it's kind of like that baby that came out of all of that and Oh man, it's, it's such a blessing. Yeah.

Steph

Yeah. Absolutely. No, I, I, I think that it is hard work, but I don't think there's any work that's more worthwhile than that. Like I. I feel like everyone should be in therapy, but I al but I really feel like perimenopausal and menopausal women like this is, it's not just because of our need. And this is something that I realized when I was doing my artist's way group with midlife women. I was like, oh, we'll use this lens of midlife womanhood because we have all the, the, the deck is stacked against a sandwich generation and hormones and we're all, you know, frazzled and overwhelmed and caregiving.

Dana

Yeah.

Steph

But what I didn't realize is like, but also. We are ready to step into this new level of, of wisdom and power. Yeah. Like we are, we're, this is a time, like it's worthy of our exploration to do that work, whether it's therapy or you know, or getting back in touch with our own creativity or working with a coach or like, this is a great time to do it. Not just because life is hard, but because we are all becoming more amazing at this stage of life. Yes. You know? Yes.

Dana

There's all this potential. Like at one point when I was, when it was a dark time for me and I was really suffering and feeling like I was stuck, um, I felt like I was on a precipice, like a clip. I'm like, I am, I'm wiser. I'm older, I'm wiser. I have all this potential. And I didn't really, like, my brain didn't really come up with those words, but I felt like I was on a cliff. Okay.

Steph

Yeah.

Dana

And I was like, I need to learn like how to get. Across the clip, somehow there's gotta be some sort of impetus or push. Um, and I don't wanna be stuck anymore. I don't wanna be stuck in this zone of overeating, feeling sorry for myself dealing with all these hormones and feeling depressed because of it. And also invisible. It was really like, that's the, the TEDx tox. I, I ended up calling or talking about, there's a thing, a real thing called Invisible women's syndrome. And it, it, it occurs between 55 and 75 for women where they literally feel invisible. Um, and all of that was happening, but I was like, but I still have so much good to me. I have so much that I can do. I have so much potential. But it just felt like it was getting squashed and I had to find a way to. Un squash myself, which is really a technical term, but anyhow, um,

Steph

I love that.

Dana

No more squashing. Yeah,

Steph

no, that's brilliant. Like what a, what an interesting way to frame that. Like playing small or just, just, just the stuckness. I think that happen and, and I do think that that's why I, I think Gen X women are. Are revolutionary in many ways because mm-hmm. It's not just about finding the right form of collagen or following the, the Meow Belly diet. It, it's, oh yeah. It's not about us refusing to age, it's, it's about us. Refusing to succumb to the fear of aging. Yes. Or invisibility. Or irrelevance. Yes. It's like we, we aren't going to do that. We are changing the narrative, I believe mm-hmm. About what midlife means, and I think we'll continue to do it into our sixties and seventies and eighties and, and, and I think that that's, I think that's new, you know? Yeah.

Dana

I have too much to say, you know, I just have too much to say to, to let it all be, um, invisible anymore. And I, I just spent the weekend with my parents and I was kind of watching my mom and I remember telling her about the stuff that's happening, the book that's coming out. You know, she's always so amazed. Spite the stuff that I do, like the TEDx thing took forever. They were like, they did not know what that was. And they were, they were like, what? You're talking to Ted? Like what's happening?

Steph

Oh my God,

Dana

that's amazing. So my mom always says stuff like, she, this is what she says. I'm just. And you weren't like nervous and you weren't scared. And I was like, yeah mom. I was terrified. Like, you have to memorize the whole thing. It's a lot. Um, and she goes, I just never could do the stuff that you do. And she has this look of almost resignation about it. And I know it's a different generation and it's different kind of look at things. Um, but it, it just felt small and I felt kind of bad for her'cause it, it just felt kind of small and I thought, I don't wanna be that. I don't wanna be small and I don't wanna. Disregard myself. Um, no. Anymore, so, yeah.

Steph

And you don't have, and we don't and we don't have to.

Dana

Yeah,

Steph

exactly. And I'm, I'm really excited to read your book and

Dana

Oh, great. I'm

Steph

glad. I think like, rather than being for this very narrow niche, if you, if you've experienced these things you like, it sounds like the lessons that you've learned Yeah. And your process is something that we can all apply to our own. Yeah. Exploration of ourselves and our own journey towards healing ourselves from whatever it is. Yeah. And you know, when you said that you, everyone has, okay. Did you read Liz Gilbert's new book all the Way to the River?

Dana

Yes,

Steph

of

Dana

course. Yes.

Steph

He caught a ton of shit. For, for saying that everyone uses something or someone, people were just clutching their pearls.

Dana

I know.

Steph

Yeah. Like, who the hell are you? Like, yeah. Everybody. We all, we, we, we don't know how to cope with life. It's crazy. It's intense. We're not really sure why we're here. Like it's, we, we do things to numb out. Or to mask or to cope or to like, everybody does it. So the fact does fact that people were just horrified by her proclamation I thought was ridiculous because I think you're right. I think we all have unhealthy patterns, whether it's in our relationships or within our own bodies. And anyone who doesn't believe that they do. You know, has maybe achieved enlightenment. And I don't think those folks are the ones throwing stones at authors. So I don't know. No, I could be wrong. I don't

Dana

either.

Steph

Um,

Dana

I agree with that. And I think we all either have inner or outer stuff that we're, we lean on for release from pain.'cause the world is painful.

Steph

Mm-hmm.

Dana

And, um, and yeah, this was my journey and I, I totally is one of those moments in terms of writing that book where again, I'll say I wrote through it like I was writing through the pain. So, um. But I also love the book in the sense that I feel like it's funny and it shows the humor in things and, and gave moments of true levity because that's how I write. I love humor and I love writing funny'cause that's kind of who I am. Um, me too. And it gave hope, and I know a lot of people have talked about in terms of, um, reading books like this, it's one of those moments where, um, are you gonna read a drunk, a log where everything's awful and it doesn't really offer. Um, a way out or a moment of hope, and I feel like humor provides that. It gives us that, that moment where we're all kind of on the same page and we're all together in it Anyhow. Yeah. Now it sounds like I'm just bragging about my book. No,

Steph

no. But, but you know what? Okay. Speaking of Liz Gilbert, I have two friends and, and my writing community who went to, um, a, like a, an event of hers in Vancouver. Mm-hmm. And she came up to one of them and said, do you love your writing?

Dana

Mm-hmm.

Steph

And my friend said, yeah. I do. And she's like, good, I love mine too. Like, why shouldn't you brag about your book? Why shouldn't you love your book? And, and. And, and I totally agree with you on the humor as, as a lifeline and I, my memoir, which is coming out in December, 2026. So that's exciting. Oh, very exciting. I know. That's

Dana

awesome. Congratulations.

Steph

But I also wrote my way through it, it like, if, if Brene Brown says right from the scar, not the wound, I'm also a big fan of writing wall hemorrhaging. I think that's very useful because like you said, you write your way through it. Yeah. And I think maybe if there, if there's a takeaway to listeners here. I think it's, it's what you said about when you had your moment of like, when you, well in, in Liz's book that like saying, my life like this has become unmanageable. Right? Yeah. Something like I, I've identified that this is not sustainable, it's not working, rather than going to shame or judgment. It was. I need to understand what's happening. Like I would say to anyone who is at this pivotal midlife, not crisis, but whatever it is, um, yeah. Chrysalis that you're about to go into mm-hmm. Go into the midlife chrysalis and figure out what is, what is, what's at the root of this, what do you need to understand about yourself that you're not currently understanding, that's resulting in whatever pattern you're stuck in, that that feels terrible. And then, you know, whether you write your way through it or. Or evening, walk your way through it or journal or meditate or yoga, but like, I think you're right. Doing that, doing something creative like that. Something life-giving.

Dana

Yeah.

Steph

To, to help with your healing. I don't know. I just, I think you're onto a really beautiful formula here.

Dana

Yeah.

Steph

About getting curious at what's going on.

Dana

Yes. And that's a word I use. You need to get curious about yourself. If we get curious about other things, you know, like I'll end up researching Tom Hiddleston for like 25 minutes because I wanna know what makes Tom Hiddleston tick, or, um, I don't know why I picked that person, but. I just think he's cute. Well, now I wanna, now

Steph

I wanna research him. Yeah. No, I, I've

Dana

really pointing

Steph

towards stimulus, rabbit hole and I'm there.

Dana

Who knew? Right? Yahoo. Who knew? Um, but it's just funny how we, we give that to so many other things in our life and, and we talk, you know, we will end up, we will research for ages about stuff about our kids so that we can help them. Why do we not do it about ourselves? And I love how you pointed out the chrysalis thing, because even as I talk about the word stuck and feeling stuck and feeling, you know, like you're in limbo and that moment before where something creative comes along and that feeling of stuckness, that's, that's okay too. And that's necessary. And there's a part where hunkering down and isolating might not be the healthiest, but there's right. There's a time for that, you know?

Steph

Well, you can't skip it. I think sometimes you literally need to sit in your shit before you do anything else.

Dana

Exactly. And the pain. And you need to just allow it to happen. Allow it, and sit with it. It's kinda like childbirth. I mean, you have to. Sit through that, those pains and deal with them. Although I wasn't personally dealing with them, I was on drugs at the time. Which, sorry, it's still, sorry. Natural wait metaphor.

Steph

No, the analogy is Yep. Anyhow. And, and know that you're not gonna be in labor forever. Right. Exactly. Like this is

Dana

not, I down and dealt with it. Yeah.

Steph

Yep.

Dana

And kind of isolated. And it was, and, and I knew I was doing it and I was aware of it and, and let myself kind of feel sorry for myself and feel shitty on some days, and then slowly I think it was okay. I think the difference was the feeling stuck part when I finally looked at that too and said, okay, so this is what you're doing right now. I see you're feeling sorry for yourself and you're not, you know, you're not. Really doing much and you're eating too much and you're not really getting outside or dealing with anything that's exercise related.'cause I really, I have to run every day or my brain is bad, you know, that kind of thing. But I wasn't running and all of that. And I, I faced it and I finally was like, okay, all right, I see you, I see you stuck. Um, that's, you're gonna be stuck, I guess, for a while. And then as soon as I did that and admitted to it and, and it. It was able to kind of work itself out. The kinks were working out at the time, and I slowly got back into, into, um, a creative practice and writing every day and then running, and, you know. It's like you have to face it and look at it. It's like the mm-hmm. I used to tell my kids that they had nightmares. Um my son Henry, was really scared of the clown it. And um, I told them, in your dream, I want you to, in your scary dream, I want you to go up to the it clown and I want you to boop it on the nose and just go, boop. And it's the same. It's kind of like, okay, I'm gonna boop you, we call it the boost roll. Yes.

Steph

That is brilliant. That is brilliant. Yeah, I think I, I don't know. And, and, and you know what? We are gonna have, like, we are gonna have dips, we are gonna have ebbs and then we're gonna need to get back into the flow. And I think we need to have the grace and patience during those to know that sometimes we forget and then we're gonna remember again, you know?

Dana

Yeah. It's not gonna go away forever and the body will come back and I, I mean, hopefully the body will come back to where. It, it needs to be, it'll balance it itself out. I know for me, if I go back to drinking, it won't, right.'cause that will just take me off the rails. So there are some things in place where I know, like some really bad stuff if I, if I do this. Yeah. Um. So I have some boundaries in place. I'm not gonna allow myself to just go all out into like, you know, right. Fitness and squalor. Um, but I do, I'm, I just, I guess the word is gentle. I'm just a lot more gentle with, with all of this. I, I just remember when I was a little kid, I wanted to, I had a best friend who had horses and I wanted to learn how to horseback ride'cause it was awesome. And I loved horses. And I just remember one time I just got on this mare and I was just ready. Like I was, we were gonna just canter off and I fell. Off the horse because I tried too hard to do too much and the horse wasn't ready and I wasn't ready. And my friend Tracy walked up to me and I was lying on the ground. And she's like, you all right? And I said, yeah. She goes, you need to be gentle with yourself and the horse. And I just always remembered that like, be gentle with yourself and the horse. So yeah.

Steph

Those are the perfect words to end of this episode with.

Dana

Yeah, that was good. Am I good? Wait,

Steph

bring it home. That was brilliant. Oh, I

Dana

landed the plane.

Steph

Landed the plane. No, I, um, just, I got the goosebumps now. This was, um. Just, I felt like I just took a wisdom bath. You know? I felt like this was a, an hour of just marinating in the good stuff. So

Dana

yeah,

Steph

thank you for being so generous and vulnerable and inspiring, and I can't wait to read your book and we'll link to your book and yay. And your TEDx talk. Yay. And all the places that our listeners can find you in the show notes. thank you so much Dana.

thanks for being here. Together, we're going to make midlife neurodivergence less of a mystery.