Peri-Normal

Motherhood, ADHD, and the Identity Crisis Nobody Warned You About

• Stephanie Sprenger

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Motherhood, ADHD & the Identity Crisis Nobody Warned You About

What happens when a coach realizes she abandoned her own journey while helping everyone else with theirs? Dr. Gertrude Lyons got a doctorate about it. In this warm, wide-ranging conversation, Steph and Dr. Gertrude bond over late ADHD diagnoses, the chaos of new motherhood, and why "doing it differently" isn't something to apologize for.

What we're getting into:

  • Premarital counseling at 23 — weird then, genius in retrospect
  • From economic analyst to transformational leadership doctorate — the winding, beautiful road that got her here
  • What it means to "mother" even if you've never had children (yes, you're already doing it)
  • The moment she realized she'd been coaching everyone but herself
  • Her brand new book Rewrite the Mother Code and the eight-year journey it took to write it
  • Late-in-life ADHD diagnosis talk — the guilt, the grief, the oh thank God that explains it moment
  • Losing yourself in motherhood (even when you know better)
  • Why that "gelatinous mass" of new parenthood is actually a massive opportunity for growth
  • Rewriting your mother code — and what that even means
  • Both Steph and Dr. Lyons have ADHD — and neither of them found out as kids. Here's what that journey looked like
  • Letting go of the guilt that you don't work like your (very organized, very linear) partner
  • Creating structures you'll actually use vs. the ones you think you should use
  • Neurodiverse kids in a square-box world — a real conversation about accommodations, resilience, and meeting in the middle
  • Celebrating the wins (a reminder we all apparently need)

Find Dr. Gertrude Lyons:

See Steph LIVE:

Dr. Gertrude Lyons is the author of Rewrite the Mother Code: From Sacrifice to Stardust - A Cosmic Approach to Motherhood and is a leading coach and educator in women’s leadership development, parenting, and relationship satisfaction. As the founder of Rewrite the Mother Code, LLC, she inspires women to take control of their own personal transformations and has spent the last 27 years empowering individuals, couples, parents, and families to realize meaningful, successful lives. Dr. Lyons has a Masters degree in coaching and a Whole Brain Living certified coach through Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor. Lyons received her B.B.A. in Finance and Accounting from St. Mary’s College, Notre Dame, her M.A. in Psychology from Antioch University McGregor School and her Ed.D and M.A. in Transformational Leadership and Coaching at the Wright Graduate University. She is a noted media and podcast guest, and the host of the popular podcast, Rewrite the Mother Code. A TEDx speaker, Dr. Lyons has spoken at Google and other

Midlife, A DHD can be scary. But it doesn't have to be. Here on paranormal, we are demystifying neurodivergence and perimenopause. Plus, with candid conversations and advice from experts, join me for a no holds barred exploration of what it means to be neurodivergent at midlife. Let's redefine normal together. I'm Steph Springer, and this is paranormal.

Steph

hello everybody. Welcome back to the Per Normal podcast. I'm your host Steph Springer, and today I have Dr. Gertrude Lyons in the studio, and I had the delight of being on her podcast very recently, and I'm excited for you to learn more about it. We had one of those juicy dynamic conversations. Loved

Gertrude

it.

Steph

I know once you start you're like, oh, we could talk all day. Um, so I think you're gonna love her too. And while we were talking, we stumbled into, um, that, that she also had a midlife A DHD diagnosis and. Obviously I never shut up about mine, so we didn't, but we did not set out to talk about this. So once we made that discovery, I was like, I think you need to be on the Paranormal podcast. So we're gonna talk about, about her work and her podcast, um, midlife, motherhood. We can dive in the paranormal, uh, perimenopause waters if we want to. And, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna get into midlife A DHD diagnoses. So, first of all, welcome to the show.

Gertrude

Mm-hmm. Thank you so much, Steph. It's, um, I love, like our conversation, having you on the show was a delight, so this, this is super special to be able to continue our conversation and be with you again. Yay.

Steph

Thank you. I think so too. I'm glad we did. It was just a few weeks ago, so I feel like

Yeah.

Steph

Like we, we were, we were just here in this space, so. Mm-hmm. Will you tell our listeners a little bit about your podcast and also kind of your Sure. Sort of career path that led you to that?

Gertrude

Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. So my podcast is called Rewrite the Mother Code, so that's kind of the umbrella of everything. I published a book this year called Rewrite the Mother Code. It's what I'm all about now. Mm-hmm. But that, you know, that was, those are different ways to get the word out of something I've been working on. Well, I would say throughout my life, kind of through a, a whole, um, awakening awareness when my husband and I got engaged. 36 years ago. 'cause we just celebrated 35 years of marriage that one of the most important things you can do, even though it was so outrageous and out of the ordinary, was to do premarital counseling.

Steph

Right.

Gertrude

And that was a me following a, uh, an intuitive urge or like, oh, that, something about that makes sense even though that's like weird. Like, what do you mean? I just, you know, I'm 23 years old and I found the man in my dreams. Why? What's the problem here? Well. You know, looking at, at families and the couples that raised us, um, there were a lot of problems.

Steph

Right?

Gertrude

Right. So, just the practicality of the fact that, you know, alcohol divorced extramarital affairs, like those were things we already knew about. And then, you know, later you find out even more, um, this was gonna be a good idea. So I start way back there because that was. Kind of the seed, you know, like the starting point, right? Mm-hmm. That's of my choice to, you know, take what my formation years were and, and. Do my, my transformation, my self-actualization become, you know, aware of you and that, you know, I appreciated the therapist we had at the time. 'cause he's like, he helped us create a vision for our marriage and like, wow, what's that? And, and for our life together. And then, um, then said, well, now the best thing you can do for your couple is. Go on your own journey, your personal journey. Yes. Like know you, like if, and know you know your family's histories. Like, know, you, know how you tick and, and so that, because guess what, can

Steph

you imagine how revolutionary it would be if everybody did

Gertrude

that? Like, why isn't that required? Hello? Like this is such a big aspect of our life, right? Yes.

Steph

Mm-hmm.

Gertrude

Yeah. So, um, so, and, and he went, he did it, which is kinda, you know, one of those small mirror. I. Thank

Steph

the angels. Well, a little, a little revolutionary. Especially even a couple of decades ago, because right now I think there are, I don't wanna stereotype men, but I mean, I love therapy. I've been in therapy forever and not because I have any significant trauma, just because I think there's so much value in exploring ourselves, but stereotypically men aren't like, sweet sign me up for some counseling. So kudos to you. You picked a good one that that 35 years ago.

Gertrude

I can't imagine, I, I can't see a way that that marriage would've worked without work, you know? Right. Without this exploration. Like, there were just too many forces and it's, it's, it's those seeds of, you know, and then kind of working in that arena. I was an economic analyst at the time and I did that for the first 10 years of my career, but there was always the people aspect that I liked and I worked in personal injury and wrongful death. So I worked like, I liked being with the people like numbers, eh, you know, that was something I kind of did. 'cause. I wanted to make money, you know?

Steph

Right.

Gertrude

Didn't, you know, have any guidance otherwise. Uh, so at the juncture of when we decided to start a family and go on that journey is then in the midst of that, I pivoted to start getting, you know, schooled in psychology. Uh, coaching, I, I was really in, the coaching model was just coming into the forefront, so I'm like, yeah, like that's what I wanna do. Um, so I got into that, but realized, you know, in, in, in this mothering journey, like the, I'm so grateful for all the seeds that got planted, all the work that got done. Uh, but it just, you know, it's its own stressor, right? Like it's its own Yes. Cat, you know, kind of, um, inflection point that. I don't think anything can fully prepare you for it, but I was, I don't know what would've happened if I didn't have some semblance of self-awareness and knowledge. You know, I was able to,

Steph

you were primed a little bit. You were

Gertrude

primed. I was definitely primed, you know, and um, um, but what I found out later, which I wish I had known then, is like that. That chaotic because then it was kinda like, well, you're gonna regress, you know, all the work you've done, you know, it's gonna like just unravel and it kind of does, but that's okay. Right. What I, I didn't learn until much later when I studied it for my doctorate. Uh, many years later when my girls were like teenagers and already leaving the house. 'cause I was like, wait, what happened? You know, like,

Steph

right.

Gertrude

What happened? I, I am, I'm a coach. I'm like coaching other people and I lost myself in mothering. I stopped, yes, my own journey. Kind of thinking, I was still doing it, but it was more, it was surface level, right? Like we were consciously parenting, but I had stopped digging into like my own stuff. Really?

Steph

Yes.

Gertrude

Abandoned myself. And it's like, why? Why? How did that happen? Well, you know, a missing piece had been like, well that gelatinous mass time of new motherhood is the ES for transformation. Like, I didn't know how to get the support I needed to stay, you know, the. The people that were in that arena with me at the time weren't acclimated that way. Right. Like it wasn't, that piece wasn't available yet. And so I kind of floundered through and by a second child I was like, Nope. Done. And I didn't say this consciously, I just, it was an awareness, a reflective, when I reflected back, it's like, oh yeah, you really got off the trail, you know? Mm-hmm. Kind of went back to, so that's what led to, okay, like this happened. I have some regret and remorse about that. I, you know, I, I didn't, you know, completely beat myself up, but I let myself have some regret and remorse, like, wow, what would've happened if I had stayed on that journey? You know? And some of the choices I made would've been different. Some I, and who would I have developed into if I had stayed the course? So that's when I decided to study it more in depth and get a doctorate in transformational leadership and coaching with this focus on mothering as a vehicle for transformation. Brilliant. And so that, you know, I came out with that and now I'm like, now what do I do? It's like, ah, this is, this is, you know, really important, but. So that's, that's when it got, I kinda, you know, I hate to distill it to like, calling it like I branded it, but I, I did, you know, the, the, I was had not until finishing that, that work come and working with somebody who can hear all the things that you're trying to convey and then put it into something called rewrite the mother code. I'm like, that says it all. Says so much. No,

Steph

you, I think, I think distillation is the right thing. Like I know we all have to

Gertrude

distillation. Yes,

Steph

we have to brand ourselves. Yes. But it's distilling all of your work thank you. Into something concrete. And I think that's a brilliant thing to do. The encapsulation of that. And I'm just, I'm so in awe of your journey because. I don't really, I don't know if I know any mothers that didn't experience a maternal identity crisis either on the front or back end. Right? Yeah. Um, I, one of my guests, Brit Ballard, she produces a show called The Unsent Show where people, um, read unsent letters on stage. So her whole work is storytelling, but she was talking to me about perimenopause and she was saying when she became a mother, the woman she was before died and she didn't. Properly mourn that woman. And then she was talking about, you know, you, you go down the line and now we're in perimenopause and you know, my girls are 14 and 19 and it's like this identity crisis that I remember as being just paramount of, of my mm-hmm. My life back then. Well, there's a different identity crisis, right? Because it's like. You know, there was this resistance to my name being mommy. And then on the other end it's like, wait, am I not mommy anymore? Like I think women are expected to pivot so many times in ways that, again, with the stereotyping men maybe are not. Mm-hmm. And so, I don't know, even if you've had, you've done all the work, you've done therapy, you know yourself, I don't know if there's any way. To avoid the identity crisis of motherhood and yeah. I love that you were so committed to it, that you were actually like, I'm going to study this and do something with this. And you made it the cornerstone of your work. I just like, I know, like you were doing the good work out there. It's so important.

Gertrude

So Well, thank you. Yeah. I was kinda like, I'm not gonna let this go to waste, you know, and I, I knew that there was a. A reclaiming of, of, you know, my own work and, and of myself that I thought that process would do. But so it kind of felt easier, like, oh, I'll study it. Yeah. Maybe, you know, before I commit to like, uh, launching myself into the mix of it. But that certainly happened, you know, I, I definitely, well, and

Steph

it probably made it richer too, like, you know, it

Gertrude

did, because I didn't wanna admit it at first. Like, I kind of knew it and that's why, what put me there. But, you know, as I started looking at like. You know, what's my topic gonna be? Or that, and then, you know, one of my advisors was like, well, you know, you didn't really do. What you're advising, you know what you're

Steph

right.

Gertrude

Researching that you want from it. I'm like, what do you mean? Like, you know, it, there was a next level of telling the truth that I really had to, you know, face and let that kind of, almost like that illusion die. Right? Oh

Steph

yeah.

Gertrude

Like I still wanted the illusion 'cause I was, like I said, I was doing some things consciously. I made a lot of good choices. I just left myself out of it. Right. I

Steph

funny how that works. I was just talking with my friend this morning who's a therapist. This whole, she's, you know, like, I have all this knowledge, I know all these things. I advise all these people and in my own life, I mean, it's really like the cobbler's children have no shoes, right? Mm-hmm. It, it doesn't. Mm-hmm.

Gertrude

Like

Steph

I work with writers on time management and this and that. Do I take any of my own vice? I mean, it's, it's interesting, but I think you really do kind of need your feet to be held to the fire sometimes. Yeah. To be like. Are you putting your money where your mouth is? Are you walking your talk? Um, how long ago did you get, did you get your doctoral degree?

Gertrude

I completed it in 2017, so,

Steph

okay. And now you've just finished

Gertrude

eight. So that was, yeah, eight years

Steph

ago.

Gertrude

Had, yeah. So God, I can't believe it's eight years. So eight years ago. So 2018, one daughter graduated from college and one was still in high school. So just to kind of place it. Sure. So I did that whole doctorate mostly while one was still in the house, but the other had mostly been out of the house at college. Maybe she was, when I started she was a senior ish. Yeah. Something like that. So they were still around and like very much in the atmosphere, but on that cusp of, of. You know, becoming, also becoming an empty nester. So it, I didn't say like

Steph

kind of the perfect time.

Gertrude

It was a perfect time. Even though at the time there were some people in the program that their kids were already gone. I'm like, even though they're teenagers, they still take so much time and. You guys have so much more time than I do, you know?

Steph

Oh, yes. No, I do. I do. I believe me. I know. I, so, okay, so in that eight year period, you, you got your degree, and then, and you've, and your book is, first of all, congratulations on your book being out in the world. That really is like having another baby. The birth of a book is, I

Gertrude

just, it wasn't, it is Now. I'm in, I, I, I'm in that new motherhood, but I, this one I can say I, um. I did hold my feet to the fire of being, you know, really mothering myself and, you know, doing the thing I said better, right? Yes. Like, nobody does this perfect. It's a, it's, it'll be a journey until

Steph

Yeah. But you've got another chance at it. Like, like you got another chance to practice it, which is beautiful. So, so tell us about the eight year period between you finished this program. Yeah. Came and now have a book. Came and came

Gertrude

and I realized like, this is a very vulnerable topic. Like my, my doctor, I did a. Um, a curriculum evaluation study. I, I created a, a curriculum for a 12 hour workshop to, to raise women's awareness. But I did it with women who didn't have children yet, so they could, you know, have all this knowledge and prepare or, you know, and start looking at what it looks like to make discerned decisions. But it wasn't easy to get people to that workshop because women, like, it's a very vulnerable time. I discovered, you know, this is part of the process that. Before you're perfectly poised, like, oh, I'm married and we're gonna, we're starting to have children. Or I have a child like that's, that's safe to somewhat talk about motherhood. But for women who, I don't know if this is gonna happen for me, I don't know if I want children, I don't like you don't talk about. Motherhood unless you're in it, you know, or you're actually process. Process. Such a good observation in the process.

Steph

Yeah.

Gertrude

Yeah. And it was, it was like, and they said that when they got there, they're like, this, like, I, I don't talk about about this with anybody. Right? Like other than the people saying like, oh, are you gonna have kids? Or, why don't you have kids yet? Or, you know, I'm sure you're gonna have kids and answering those kind of questions, but not sitting there with other women talking about like, and that's where so much of the really. Beautiful and kind of vulnerable. And some of the unexpected, uh, came out for me in this awareness was 'cause one of the underlying themes carried throughout is even though it's, you know, technically a book about motherhood, it, it really, I'm trying to also expand the definition of, of that to mothering and that, that. And connect us all through mother energy and, and, and put out there a truth that we, I believe we all mother, everyone, mothers, yes. And all women, mother, whether you're, and you may choose to mother children, and that's its own, you know, unique little experience, but you're already mothering. And to say that to them, like, you're already mothering and you may make this choice or you may not, you know, you may have that experience. But you're, you're mothering your business. You're mothering relationships. You're mothering your pets, your dreams, your ideas. Yes. You know, anything we're putting our caring, creative energy into, we're mothering and that the most important person we need to mother is ourselves. This is.

Steph

This makes me think about, you know, when we, we can get very literal about masculine and feminine energy. Like it's mm-hmm. Not gender. We're not talking about gender when we're talk. Like that's what I think about with that feminine energy and that receptivity and the nurturing and yes, we all mother, whether you've mothered children or have a womb at all. Um, okay. That's beautiful.

Gertrude

Yeah. So to say that to them in, in that process, um, that was so illuminated, I'm like, okay, that has to keep being part of it. So I came out, you know, with that and, you know, I had statistically significant results even though I didn't have a huge sample. Um, and, you know, I did qualitative, quantitative, like, yeah, this, and just the way the women were after. I'm like, okay, I have to. This is a message that I need to keep building and, and putting out there. So I did more work on creating a keynote talk on it. So, you know, just like maybe women will come just do a talk, you know, and I don't have to sign up for a whole workshop. But then I did start, right, so talks and workshops and bringing it more into my coaching and, um, I mean now to this then, then. Then starting a podcast, like, what are all the ways? Right? Let's try 'em all. No, what are all the

Steph

ways? Oh my gosh. Relatable. That's my career.

Gertrude

What are all the ways? And um, yeah, the, I started the podcast in 2020 and I was like, what am I doing? Like, I don't know how to do this. And I wasn't comfortable like just off the cuff talking and I'm like, so this is perfect. Like, I'm doing this for me, right? Yeah. I'm doing this so much for me, and oh my gosh, even if. Like literally, you know, I'm sure like those first episodes had like 30 people listen to 'em. I'm like, but that's 30 people I would've had to have get into a room and you know, like, I'm like, this is amazing. What a. Awesome vehicle for, you know, sharing and talking. And then I love the guests, right. I loved Sure. Um, all the people I was meeting, I'm like, this is, this is a win. So, yeah. So the, the podcast got started in 2020 and I've, I've kept that going 'cause, 'cause I feel so nourished by it. And that, that's, and you have

Steph

like 200 episodes now, don't you?

Gertrude

Aren't you? Yeah. Something. Yeah. So it's, um. You know, and, and you go through all the things. So it's just like children, right? Like the, the podcast, the book, it's like. Comparing to other, how others are doing. Right. Like my child, how's my child doing compared to your child? Oh, you know?

Steph

Totally. Exactly.

Gertrude

And

Steph

how does like, yes. Is your, is your podcast in the gifted and talented program, are they playing for the competitive league?

Gertrude

Exactly. Oh, are people like. Paying you to do your podcast, you know, all the things.

Steph

Oh, well, when you're a creative and your creations are your babies, of course we have this. Well, and I, we can either put a pin in it or we can dive into it. But the A DHD brain, yes. This is a thing. This is a thing when, when you're saying, how many ways can I do this? That is my whole career. And I think that I have felt tremendously self-conscious about that for so long. Other people just do one thing. Other people have one normal job. Yeah. And I'm producing shows and writing and writing books and podcasting and doing standup comedy. Like why can't I pick a lane? But I'm just like. Bursting with ideas and how many different ways can I

Gertrude

mm-hmm.

Steph

Help women get back in touch with their voices. Let's try it all the ways. Yeah. And that is a very classic a DHD woman thing. That multi creative, that entrepreneurial spirit, that restless slash boredom, but not really. It's just like you have so much you want to do.

Gertrude

Yes.

Steph

And, and you maybe didn't know that about your natural tendencies as it was. I didn't.

Gertrude

I did and I didn't, you know, some, it's like aspects of it that I wouldn't have, like necessarily connected to the, the A DHD, right? Like I'm, so I got diagnosed I think in my early thirties,

Steph

something like that. So you were younger than I I was

Gertrude

45.

Steph

Was younger. Mm-hmm.

Gertrude

Yeah. So it wasn't quite midlife. Um,

Steph

but,

Gertrude

you know, thirties, but you're still, you're still an adult, right? Mm-hmm. And you're like, mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. That brought both peace and oh my God, what do I do? You know, like, what do I do with this now? Right, right. Um, but what you're saying is that the bouncing around and like there's so much in there that wants to get out and, you know, to that it's been such a journey of acceptance and like. This is how I live like this is there's, why do I have to live that the way that's prescribed, you know, by everyone. And that's so structured and rigid and you know, you do the one thing that's been normalized. Um. I, I, I sometimes just like, oh, look at me, like floating from one thing to the next, like in the kitchen, you know? Right. Or whatever.

Steph

Yes.

Gertrude

Like, pull this out and start there. It's like, and then when I do need to be really organized or structured, like when I was writing a book, right? It, I, I had to have some, I created some frameworks or I had, you know, to me, I always need people around me or support to keep me, you know, kind of in my lanes, right? Because I, yep. I knew enough by then to know that. Like I'll just be, oh my God, I'm into this and now I'm researching it. I could write a whole book about this one thing that I was supposed to write, like, you know,

Steph

yes. Side

Gertrude

quest, a section of a chapter.

Steph

Oh my

Gertrude

gosh. And go up there.

Steph

Go up there. That's so true.

Gertrude

Right?

Steph

You described it perfectly though, the like. Yes, but like this is how I live. Like you said it, with such agency, like sovereignty is the word that comes to mind. Like,

Gertrude

yeah,

Steph

this is how I live. Why would I make an apology for it? Why would I try to fit this shape peg into that shape whole Like this is me. This is mine. And. I think that, I think you are probably an unusually strong and driven woman because I think many of us have a lot of guilt or shame about the fact that we don't live that traditional life, that we don't fit into that paradigm. And I just love the way that you speak about it. And I'm sure it was a journey. I'm sure that you has just wake up on the planet being like, I am who I am and I'm sticking to it.

Gertrude

No, it, it really has, and especially I've laugh. I only started laughing stuff because I was, my husband's like the exact opposite. Like he's the prototypical, like he's, he's so organized and so structured and can just like focus and mm-hmm. Oh, you know, I think he's like, I'm thinking he's like me at times and he just hasn't, you know, sat down and done that thing yet because he's so distracted. No, like. Once he decides to sit down and do the thing, he does the thing. Mm-hmm. Whereas I like float around and then sit down to do the thing and I'm doing still five other things.

Steph

Right. No, that relatable. And what's interesting, so, um, gosh, I'm trying to remember when we recorded had I, I don't know if I had announced that I had gotten a, that I have a book deal that I like, signed a contract that I, my, I don't know if that had happened yet. I, I can't remember. Remember

Gertrude

if you were on the. Spur a you?

Steph

Actually, I can't. Well, I, it might have happened, but I wasn't allowed to say it

Gertrude

yet.

Steph

Okay. I don't remember. That was like a million years ago. Not a few weeks, but in the last few weeks I was able to announce that I signed a book deal and that my, my memoir is gonna be published in December, 2026. It's called Nostalgia Junkie, but I. You know, basically I got a diagnosis through the process of writing that book, like me diligently doing this like research to learn myself retracing my steps. It was like it all led me to the, like you are neurodivergent. Like there are reasons that you feel this way, but then. So I had a deadline on Monday, the day before yesterday, where I needed to submit my completed manuscript for now. I have known about this for a month. When did I do it? On Sunday? I spent seven hours and I. I keep describing it, like if anyone ever watched friends, the episode where they go to London and Joey is like, you need to get in the map. We're gonna get in the map. I needed to get in my book. I was like in a DH, ADHD hyper focus mode, and I, yes, I technically procrastinated it till the last minute, but I knew that that was the way I needed to do it. I couldn't be half in or half out, but my publisher sent a spreadsheet that is basically the timeline and it's. Two columns and they're color coded and it's like, this is when you have the book, this is when we have the book. This is this, that's that. I'm like, oh, thank God. Like I need someone to be my front brain during this. Like I need

Gertrude

some executive function. Aren you so grateful. Help for the people who create like

Steph

yes.

Gertrude

Create those structures that I can just use. Yes. I don't,

Steph

I am,

Gertrude

I used to feel guilty that like I should know how to do that too for myself. And now I'm like. That would take me forever. Like also that's not, yes, could I do it? But that's not my,

Steph

No, we have, we don't, you can't have all the gifts. That would be very greedy. You need to leave some of the gifts for other people. And if our gift is not to create scaffolding naturally, let's let other people scaffold, um, I'm very curious about. What brought you to that moment when you either decided did you pursue it or did someone say, Hey, do you think

Gertrude

maybe, so it's, it's interesting, like one signal that I, I think was related to this that I, I was actually told to ignore, but in high school, um, one of my teachers told, like shared in a conference or whatever, that she thought I was dyslexic. And I don't know if eight, like if. People were diagnosing, like just kind of like, you seem like you're a DH, ADHD or, she brought up dyslexia and then. We met with the principal at the end. She's like, oh, just don't pay any attention to her. You know, kind of as if like, she crossed a line, she shouldn't have crossed and we don't want you upset, so don't, just don't think about that. I'm like,

Steph

Hmm,

Gertrude

well, okay. So I didn't know what felt better, like, you know, so, right. I just kind of dropped it, but then it was actually in while I was amidst this journey of my. Personal growth and self-actualization. I was, you know, doing one-on-one therapy and then also part of a, of a group, you know, like did group therapy for a number of years. And, you know, every two, three times a year we'd fill out a questionnaire, how you're doing, you know, like what, you know, what's, what's happening, what is, what's doing better, you know, and kind of comparing. But I kept. I, I was never able to say anything was better in the arena of focus or staying, um, on task and that, that like, yeah, no, you know, maybe not worse, but it's definitely not better and like this is an area that feels like it and it, you know, this is in therapy or coaching, so there, you know, assuming it's causing you emotional distress or whatever. So, and it just so happened that. Within the practice. Um, somebody had started working and, and started doing the testing, so why don't you, let's, let's test you and see. 'cause maybe that's part of it. And now granted I wasn't off the charts, but I was definitely over the line. Right? I was definitely in there. Um. But not, it didn't signal anybody. And I, I was very much in an environment that was like, you do everything you can do before you take any kind of medication. Right? Like it was almost a little, probably too far to that side where

Steph

Yep.

Gertrude

You know, like, well try it, see what you think. Like it, that wasn't even a question, you know? Right. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that. Um,

Steph

yep. That's how I was too. Like, oh, why, why would I get a formal diagnosis? I don't need meds. I'm doing just fine. Yeah. It wasn't until I stopped doing just fine that I was like, Hmm. I'm going gonna walk that back. That, so anyway, so, okay. But I can picture it though, that like medicine, that you medication was not the thing that you were ready to just jump into.

Gertrude

Yeah. And just some, some really, like what feel like basic things, but they were just like, oh my gosh, I didn't think about how much creating clean, clear spaces around me, like gave me so much peace. Right? Like if, mm-hmm. If I don't have. All my distractions sitting out on my desk. Like that's very helpful. Right, right.

Steph

It does give you a new paradigm to reorder

Gertrude

your environment. It gave a paradigm. Mm-hmm. Exactly. And, you know, um, so just trying some practices like that, uh, helped. i'm trying to think like was there one thing, but it was such an evolution of the combination of. Of appreciating structures, appreciating accountability, but also like the, the journey was then not feeling the guilt and the shame and the blame when I couldn't meet them or if I wasn't

Steph

Yes.

Gertrude

Doing them right away to eventually get to like, I want, I don't have to be the one doing them. And yes, I need people, I need su, you know, kind of support around me and there's nothing wrong with that. Um. It's like brilliant. When I, you know, signed with my publisher, I'm like, the best thing that came outta that was I got a deadline because yes, I, you know, like I basically, it's like

Steph

relatable.

Gertrude

Yeah. Like give me a deadline and Yeah. And within that deadline I may, like you said, I may have these spurts of like last minute doing, you know, a lot of last minute stuff, but also, you know, creating structures where it's like I might set up in my calendar. You know, and I, and my, this is where my husband like, didn't quite understand my process. 'cause he's like, well just do it in between things and write, you know, while you're on, you know. Yeah. Uh, on an airplane and stuff. I'm like, no, you don't understand. I'm like, there's certain like maybe some editing I could do that way, but like that kind of process where I need to drop in, like I need to put. A block of six hours on my calendar.

Steph

Yes.

Gertrude

For writing of which I will probably do one hour of writing, just,

Steph

but you need to prepare the environment. You need to

Gertrude

clear, prepare the set No, exactly. And, and be okay. And not think that there's something wrong with that. Right. Or that, that, that I, I should be able to write that whole six hours if I'm putting it in my calendar. Right. And it, it took a while to realize like, no, no, that's just what you give yourself to. And yeah, I could set a goal, I could still set a goal of like what I wanted out of that writing session. Um. Just to give again, a game, a structure, you know, to keep, keep some focused, but, you know, and then just knowing that all the things like creating a ri like a ritual before I sit down. Yes. That's huge. Remembering why's I'm doing this right. The, that part, the, you know, like, it's so, it's so great. What's available now, like Spotify. Give me music to help me focus. Oh, yes. Like gimme the frequencies,

Steph

right? It's like how it's much easier to be gluten-free now than it was 20 years ago. Like I think maybe it's easier to, I mean, on one hand it's not easier to have a DH ADHD because we're all so digitally saturated, but no, there are tools and the thing that I keep hearing from you, I keep thinking of the words permission. Acceptance. Yeah. Like you have accepted this is the way I am and there's nothing wrong with it. There's no apology, and you are giving yourself permission to do it the way that works for you. Mm. And that's the thing that I think a lot of women who have a DHD diagnoses later than childhood struggle with, because we've been on this one track that we've been told is the right track. Mm-hmm. And to deviate from it means that you have failed. And I think you have to go through that process. You have to feel that guilt and that shame and mm-hmm. And I mean, I had feelings like, why didn't anyone notice? That I might have DH adhd. Like why didn't, why what doctor, therapist, teacher, no one noticed that like you have to go through your, your grieving or your anger or whatever, but like, it's like the quicker we can get to that place of acceptance and permission mm-hmm. The more easily we will thrive as adult women with a DH adhd. Yeah.

Gertrude

Yeah, no, thank That's so true and so, so beautiful. And the, and that process of the, you know, the acceptance, you know, to, to I can, I celebrated it like when I got to the point where, you know, um, I. I didn't think I was supposed to do it like my husband did it. Right? Yes. And, and where I could just say, he's like, why don't you do this or that? I'm like, 'cause I do it differently.

Steph

Yeah.

Gertrude

cause I'm different.

Steph

Yes.

Gertrude

Not better. Wrong. Like my way's better. Yours is better. No, we're we really go about. Doing things and creating things differently.

Steph

You know, that's

Gertrude

what

Steph

I'm,

Gertrude

that's it. End of story.

Steph

Yeah, that's, that's just it. It's just, that's just, we have different operating systems. You don't plug in your phone with this cord because it's not the same as my phone. We need different cords. We need D different chargers, and I think as women we can really get. Stuck in that we, we've been told we have to do it this way. And I think, I don't think it's a coincidence that either of us were kind of fully immersed in our own personal growth journeys when we got the A DH ADHD diagnosis. Yeah, that's true.

Gertrude

Yeah,

Steph

like it was like you, again, you're primed for it. If you were really like digging in the dirt of your own psyche and your own habits and your own life and relationships, you are going to be. Noticing your own system and you're gonna be curious about it. I understand that we don't wanna pathologize everyone's tendencies, but there's sort of a blowback against diagnoses right now in some ways I think. Doesn't everyone have a DHD? Does everyone need to be diagnosed with anxiety and depression? Does everyone need to? And I'm like, label me. I am a child of the eighties and I like the magazine quizzes that tell me who I am. But I also think there is, I think we, we should know who we are. Yeah. Not so that we can say, I identify only as a person with. A DH adhd. Right. But so that we can,

Gertrude

or it's an excuse like, oh, you know, right. And being a victim to it or excuse Oh,

Steph

correct.

Gertrude

You know, and throw it out there all the time. Like that's where we

Steph

havet be

Gertrude

responsible. I can't, I can't. I,

Steph

I can't. My a DH ADHD is acting up. Yeah, no. And my daughters have it too, and I am like, you've got a 5 0 4, not so that we can just say peace out on your math homework. But it's like. That to me, I think people think that we wanna use diagnoses as an excuse. Mm-hmm. When I'm just saying no, I need to identify which, which charging cord to plug in my system. I just need to identify the correct manual.

Gertrude

A hundred percent. I love what you're saying and thinking about that with what you said about your daughter, it's like, well the world is set up mm-hmm. To only support and, you know, especially school, right? Yes. Like where that's set up in such a, um. I'm gonna say it this way, like a more masculine paradigm. Yes. Of you know, this is how you do it. And if within that, yeah, we need to say, Hey, I'm different. I don't fit this operating system. Yes. So I gotta work differently here because. It's just because I just don't fit that system. Not 'cause there's something wrong with me. Right. That system was based on a small sample of people that it, that worked for.

Steph

I am gonna pick your brain here and I know I'm like, I we're getting to like the last five minutes and again, I feel like I could talk to you for all day, but I wanna, I wanna put you on the spot and ask you this question. 'cause a, a particular beloved of mine who shall remain nameless, and I frequently have conversations about that very thing, like on the one hand. So I've got two highly sensitive neurodivergent girls. Look man, we're a special snowflake family. Okay? We, we are, we are different. Um, the world is, I agree. Let's use that masculine paradigm. We do it this way. Mm-hmm. So, um. One school of thought might be too bad for you and your special needs, like this is the way of the world. Suck it up. Buttercup, bootstraps and all of that business and the world isn't going to do you any favors? Toughen up. And then I think, well, I do wanna toughen up my daughters for the world, but more so I want to soften up the world for my daughters. Mm-hmm. I want to contribute to a world that is aware that it is a neuro diverse. Place with people of different races and cultures and genders and all the things. So what do you say to that when it's like, yes, we live in this square box paradigm, but maybe we as, as a person who's a mother and who's self-aware and who has an A DH ADHD diagnosis, what do you say? What do we do with that when we've got children who don't fit the mold or ourselves who don't fit the mold?

Gertrude

That's, it's such a good question, Stefan, as as I know you even asking it. No, there isn't any easy answer to it, so

Steph

No, I just want you to tell me I'm right so I can end the argument with the anonymous person. No, she's right. No, she's right. You're wrong. Go ahead.

Gertrude

Well, I am gonna put you in, you know, I, I will say I like your thinking, right? So then I'm not making a wrong, very diploma, but,

Steph

um, very

Gertrude

diplomatic. She

Steph

agrees with me with the record, reflect.

Gertrude

Because I, I think it is some of both, right? Like, because the, the world has been set up this way for so long. Um, we're, we're not just gonna, it's not just gonna topple in one day, right? So being kind of armed and ready and know what I need to do to like. Live in this world, but to really understand what that structure is, where, you know, where do I have trouble with it, right? And where, you know, what are my challenges with it specifically and, and to what extent can I, uh, but what I love everybody to be, aware that we're all set up a certain way. To, um, I'm gonna call it style shift amongst ourselves. Ooh. Right. And, and like it, and, and try out like, and understand like, oh, you know, that's not how I operate, but let's be curious about how you do and what, how does it work for you? Oh. And do we. You know, this can, can we doing it our own ways get to the same result or, you know, I'm just thinking about school like in the end. Sure. Did I, do I learn the same thing or can I solve that problem? But differently, like, okay, we can look at it that way. Like if, if the outcome, but I'm hundred percent is the key. Curiosity is the key, you know, a hundred percent. Behind. I don't think our world can survive us thinking that there's one right way to, that the world should be set up and like everybody should just change how their agreed kind of their natural. But it's, it's behooved me a lot to build some skills and, and understand where I, I can, even if it takes me a long time or I have to do certain things to. Do things in that framework and in that way, you know? Right. And, and that, and I'm proud of the skills that I, but is that where I wanna live? Does that give me pleasure? No, no,

Steph

no. I, I agree. I think yes, having some adaptability, having some of that resilience those are important skills. But then I also think, you know, if people are to say. You know, uh, why are we making exceptions for all these other people to do it this way? Can't they just, and I'm thinking, well, that is a very patriarchal, heteronormative, ableist. The people who are, who it was built for are mad about the accommodations. But the rest of us, I think need to be a little bit. More vocal. Mm-hmm. It's like in the, maybe what, late nineties when we started to understand, oh, there are visual, auditory, and kinesthetic learners. Like, that was a mind blowing, it's, it's seven

Gertrude

intelligences. We have all these different kinds of intelligence.

Steph

Like we're, we're getting there, I think. Yeah, I think, but I think we need to keep shoving our foot in the door and, and insisting, no, we're gonna leave it open. Um,

Gertrude

and I think those voices do need to be louder, you know? Yes. And then. And in the hopes that like the, and never in the way, 'cause I say this a lot about like, you know, living in an over. Dominant masculine culture, it's doesn't mean that we should then become an over dominant feminine value culture.

Steph

Correct.

Gertrude

It's like the two can work together really well. It's like my husband and I are a great team.

Steph

I was just gonna say, there's your example right there.

Gertrude

Right? Like he, you know, and what I love about him with how he operates is also what drives me crazy and vice versa. Sure. Right. Like they, but. Give us a project and the two of us, when we, when we're in the space of valuing what each other's bringing to it, it's, it's incredible because the feminine, the masculine working in balance are harmony. I balance harmony and appreciating each other, um, and what they bring to the table. Not, you know, because you get a bunch of, of like hymns, like that way of thinking. Yes. And who knows this like. We've done, we, I, we would do this with groups, you know, 'cause you could, you could also kind of categorize these as personality styles tend to like, fit, you know, some of these. And I'm much more of a people person, much more of a like relationship. And, you know, his personality is more of a like, get it done at whatever it takes, right? Mm-hmm. And, uh mm-hmm. And vision, like, we'd get in groups and kind of be, and you're with all your like-minded people, I mean. I didn't wanna be in that group. Like they weren't having any fun. They're just like,

Steph

right,

Gertrude

how do I get it done? It's like, and we're like touching each other and you know, laughing and holding and yeah, it was gonna take us all day to get done what they might have gotten done in an hour, but. Uh, I enjoy that, that would drive him crazy, right? Uh,

Steph

that's the perfect example. And I mean, yes, I agree. We're not saying now we blot out the masculine energy. No. Listen, I can't have a, a house full of mees. I, I can't, like o only daydreamers allowed nobody who's actually doing stuff. But you know what, not to end on a political note, but I do think that middle ground is going to be the only thing that saves us as, as a culture. Whether it's accepting, okay, this is the, this is the way we've, things have always been, and we need a little more softness and adaptability versus these pendulum swings and these polarizations, and so that would be my call is for a little more curiosity, and I believe that curiosity begins with yourself, and I think you are just the most perfect shining example of what happens when a person, mm. Does get really curious about themselves in relationship and as a person, and how wonderful that you started doing this work so early in your life and that you have become a lantern bearer for so many others.

Gertrude

Yeah. Thank you so much, Seth. That means a lot. Um, 'cause I've, you know, had to work to like really honor the journey, right? Because you can,

Steph

yes,

Gertrude

always stand in a place of like, what more is left to do or like where your gaps are. But if we don't, you know, have each other to reflect, like, wow, that's, look at, you know. What you've done and where you've gotten so far, it's like, yeah, okay, cool. Like pro. Mm-hmm. I, I literally, my, one of my really close friends is also my business coach, and we had a meeting last night. I'm like, this is how every business, and she has, she definitely has more of that left brain. Which is why I need her. But she also has enough of the right brain where it isn't all like business and we have so much fun. We sat on my couch with a fire and I'm like, this is how you should do a business meeting. Like what? Why would, why would we sit at a table? Right? Why would anyone

Steph

want it? Right. Oh my gosh.

Gertrude

But anyway, she is, what a lot of what she ends up doing for me is like, wait, you've had this happen and that happened. Like, uh, those are huge celebrations. Like, yes, and just reminding each other to celebrate these milestones, these victories, and. Because there's still so much more to do, right? Like there's still Right.

Steph

But pause. Pause and appreciate. Pause at the top of the mountain and look at, look at where you've climbed. And not necessarily just the next mountain, but, um, oh my goodness. Just I love talking to you. I, me too. You, you, we may need to, you may need to make you a regular, 'cause I feel like we barely scratched the surface, but as

Gertrude

I would be happy to. And same, same with same back at you.

Steph

Well, as with my A DHD listeners, I'm like, we can't have a, an episode that's more than 45 minutes or I've lost these folks, you know, so well. Ladies and gentlemen or ladies and my dad, um, Dr. Gertrude Lyons, who is just phenomenal. Um, I will put all of this in the show notes, but will you tell our listeners where they can find you?

Gertrude

Yeah, absolutely. And you can see all the things, you know. Um, on my website, www Dr. Dr. Gertrude Lyons, L-Y-O-N-S, I dunno why I don't spell Gertrude, but it is phonetic. Um,

Steph

I don't know that I've, I've, I don't think I've encountered an alternative spelling of Gertrude.

Gertrude

No, there isn't, there aren't unusual spellings of it. So you can find out about the book. I'm. I have openings for coaching. I lead retreats, and that was one of the things we were celebrating. Uh, a woman who came on my Ireland retreat wrote about it and had it, um, as a headline article on Oprah Daily just to

Steph

speak. Oh my gosh. Congratulations to you and her. That's, that's two brilliant.

Gertrude

Like a double win I know. For both of us. Yes.

Steph

Pause and celebrate.

Gertrude

Pause. Brilliant. Pause and celebrate. So, and, and my podcast rewrite the mother code. I'm on Instagram at Dr. Gerhard Lyon, so if you Oh, and I have a TEDx talk, so on You too. Of course

Steph

you do.

Gertrude

Of course I do. That's a whole other, that's a whole other episode is my journey with TEDx. That's next time. Yes. Oh my God,

yes,

Steph

please.

Gertrude

That's a thing.

Steph

Oh, I bet. I bet.

Gertrude

We'll just leave that little tidbit.

Steph

Save that one. Yes. N coming next time. No, I would love to talk about that. Well, thank you for sharing so generously.

Gertrude

Absolutely. Thanks for having me on step. It's a honor and privilege.

If you've ever experienced ambivalence in motherhood or thought, "This is not what I expected it to be, or even I'm not the mother I expect it to be. Listen to Your Mother is the show that is going to normalize your motherhood experience. On Saturday, May 9th listen to your mother Boulder 2026 is coming to First United Methodist Church in downtown Boulder. Listen to Your Mother Boulder is the live storytelling show that gives Mother's Day a microphone. Now, this is not a hallmark show about motherhood. It's about having a mom, being a mom, not having or being a mom, and the show features a dozen local writers sharing their perspectives about motherhood, the hilarious, the embarrassing, the excruciating. And we gather together in community to really celebrate an imperfect version of motherhood and all its glory. If you are local to Denver or Boulder, I would love to see you at the show. Listen to Your Mother Boulder is this Saturday, May 9th at 7:00 PM. Details will be in the show notes. And if you are not local but are intrigued by the idea of a storytelling show that presents a more complete picture of motherhood, you can live stream the show and watch the replay for up to a week. So if you're out of town, I'd love for you to give yourself the Mother's Day gift of feeling seen and heard and listening to other experiences that might make you feel a little bit less alone. Details in the show notes. Thanks for being here. Together, we're going to make midlife neurodivergence less of a mystery.