Testosterone: Boost vs Replacement vs Abuse | What Men Need to Know | Vitality Unfiltered

Vitality Unfiltered Podcast

Host: David J. Bauder, PA-C
 Co-Host: Stephanie Lattimore
 Guest: Christopher Reeves

In this episode of Vitality Unfiltered, we explore one of the most widely discussed—and often misunderstood—topics in men’s health: testosterone.

With increasing attention from social media, clinics, and marketing campaigns, many men are left trying to navigate conflicting information about testosterone levels, supplementation, and therapy. This often leads to confusion around what is normal, what is treatable, and what may be harmful.

David J. Bauder, PA-C, founder of Weight Loss & Vitality, along with co-host Stephanie Lattimore and guest Christopher Reeves, break down the key distinctions between testosterone optimization, medical replacement, and misuse.

The discussion explains how testosterone naturally declines with age, why lab values must be interpreted alongside symptoms, and how lifestyle factors influence hormone levels. It also outlines when testosterone replacement therapy is appropriate—and where it crosses into supraphysiologic use associated with increased risk.

Additional topics include the impact of testosterone on fertility and testicular health, the importance of long-term planning, and why testosterone should always be managed as part of a broader hormonal system that includes thyroid, cortisol, insulin, and estrogen balance.

A central message of this episode is that testosterone is not inherently good or bad—it is a powerful hormone that requires thoughtful, individualized care.

In This Episode We Discuss

• The difference between testosterone optimization, replacement, and abuse
 • Why testosterone naturally declines with age and what that means clinically
 • How to interpret testosterone levels in the context of symptoms
 • The limits of lifestyle-based “boosting” strategies
 • When testosterone replacement therapy is appropriate
 • The risks associated with supraphysiologic dosing and misuse
 • The impact of testosterone therapy on fertility and long-term planning
 • Why testosterone is such a polarizing and misunderstood topic
 • How testosterone interacts with other hormonal systems
 • What responsible, medically supervised testosterone therapy looks like

Key Takeaway

Testosterone therapy can be highly effective when used appropriately—but it requires context, medical oversight, and responsible decision-making. Understanding the difference between optimization, treatment, and misuse is essential to protecting long-term health.

Contact Weight Loss & Vitality

📞 Call: 571-550-9000
 🌐 Visit: https://weightlossandvitality.com

About Vitality Unfiltered

Vitality Unfiltered is a medical podcast exploring the science of hormones, longevity, metabolism, weight loss, aesthetics, and precision medicine.

Each episode provides clinical insight from healthcare professionals who treat these conditions every day.

Our goal is simple: to help people better understand the biology of their health so they can make informed decisions about wellness, prevention, and long-term vitality.

⚠️ Disclaimer
This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Listening to this episode does not establish a provider-patient relationship. Always consult your qualified healthcare professional regarding medical concerns, diagnosis, or treatment.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Vitality.

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Vitality Unfiltered.

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Unfiltered with David Bowder.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Welcome back to another episode of Vitality Unfiltered. Joining me today from Weight Loss and Vitality is Dr. Christopher Reeves, Medical Director, and nurse practitioner Stephanie Lattimore from the Washington, D.C. location. Today we'll be discussing testosterone therapy in the in the frameworks of boost, replace, or abuse. And there are three classifications of this. Testosterone messaging is everywhere online. And there's a lot of conflicting information online where patients are wondering what is accurate. It creates confusion, what's real, what's not real. And we want to cut through what the hype we want to cut through the hype on what therapy is and what abuse is and if testosterone levels in a human body can actually be boosted by some reasonable measures. So always keep in mind that testosterone is not magic. It's medicine when used correctly. So to kick this off, let's talk about the decline of testosterone and what occurs. How does testosterone start to decline? And let's go back and let's talk a little bit about the historical perspective of the declining levels of testosterone in men.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

So testosterone decline or andropause is a natural process that occurs in the male body when testosterone levels slowly and gradually decline over time. This is a normal process. It's not as easy to pinpoint as menopause per se, because it can affect a male at any time in his life. And it's not always going to be the more obvious symptoms of ED, erectile dysfunction, and libido changes. It can actually actually start with more kind of subtle insidious changes such as mood and energy levels. But it is a normal, gradual process that will affect most men in their lives. Andropause does start maybe as early as the 40s, 50s, but can start in a male's young 30s, early 30s as well. So it's really important to pay attention to symptoms when diagnosing testosterone decline. In our clinic, I really like to use a screening tool called the Adams Score, the Addams Questionnaire. It's a 10-point questionnaire for androgen deficiency in aging males. Aging males is such a kind of a broad, kind of a broad range. So it really can apply to anybody. And if I suspect a testosterone decline or have a patient who comes with concerns, I will ask him these 10 questions, the more obvious ones, sex drive, libido, erectile dysfunction, but also how is your mood? How is your energy? Are you falling asleep after dinner? That's one of my favorite ones. And some guys will say, gee, I am exhausted. Lack of interest in things that you used to enjoy, performance at work. So it's it can be very broad. So I think that that's my best way to gauge testosterone decline before looking at numbers to see how that affects someone and their life.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Aaron Powell It certainly drives uh it drives the clinical decisions by doing that. It's a great screening tool. And it's it's often interesting to always see how that screening test matches up to the blood test. Absolutely. So it's almost like it's usually a lot of. I mean, there can be other things going on. So then when we think about this conversation that we're having today, boosting, replacing, and abuse. I guess what let's start off by what is boosting?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Aaron Ross Powell, Well So if you think about like those three tiers, it's kind of like three different levels of addressing uh testosterone. Boosting is basically non-pharmacological interventions that you can do, lifestyle modifications that you can do to boost your testosterone levels naturally. One of the most important things is like sleep hygiene, getting adequate sleep, because testosterone is released and generated while you're sleeping at night. Um and it's also related to cortisol and cortisol levels and that sort of thing, and we talked about in previous episodes. Uh when you have uh too high cortisol, you can you suppress that release of uh of the uh the testosterone at night. Other things that uh can increase your testosterone, because it's interesting, you know, most of the testosterone is made in the testes, but you also have a small amount that is made in the adrenals. And so when you think about stressful situations or resistance training or competition, you get an increase, a little small boost in terms of testosterone. So it's interesting that competition increases your testosterone levels, which is kind of an interesting thing uh that kind of comes out there. So kind of the natural way of historically or evolutionarily men kind of going out and um having to be the hunters and that sort of thing in those kind of uh situations can increase your testosterone levels without intervention. Other things uh that can uh help to increase your testosterone levels is um dieting and fat loss, because when you have elevated fat mass, um there's an enzyme called aromatase that converts testosterone to estrogen. So by just losing you using losing fat and taking care of diet and exercise and that sort of thing, you can do these natural things to kind of boost that uh that natural testosterone by 20-25 percent without any intervention.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

I always uh it is uh always a strong, such a strong correlation when we see men in our clinic for weight loss, and they clearly have some weight to lose or they've got the they have way too much adipose tissue around their stomach, and then you check their testosterone level. It's just it's such a strong correlation between the two, the extra body fat that uh is you know that you usually indicates that they're gonna have a low testosterone level. And then that also carries on being like if you don't fix that testosterone level, it's gonna be a really, really tough road trying to get to where you want to go.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Right. Trevor Burrus, Jr. And it's that's that whole kind of negative feedback thing, because you have low testosterone levels, which you're gonna cause you to be a little bit more fatigued and which is gonna make you more sedentary, which is gonna increase your your uh your fat you know composition, which is gonna increase this conversion, which is gonna make you more fatigued. It's kind of a never-ending cycle. You kind of have to just kind of break that cycle and get started with something, whether it be diet, exercise, you know, uh some of these um these boosting techniques to kind of get you started. Um, and then as you uh as these patients kind of progress, you'll decide which ones need other supplementations versus um you know TRT or these kind of things on an individual basis.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Aaron Ross Powell So you mentioned about cortisol a little bit and the adrenal glands. It's it's almost like acute stress, the good stress, the stress that happens, there's a little bit of a boosting effect there, and then the chronic stress, that's the diminished. So you start having the chronic stress and you're in the survival mechanism too long, then you're gonna go the other direction. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Exactly. So what is what when we start to when we start to think about testosterone replacement therapy, when when is it appropriate?

SPEAKER_00 6:48

So when TRT, testosterone replacement therapy is appropriate in the right guy at the right time. When I joined the clinic, I asked you, I don't want to help people who are trying to abuse steroids. I was so nervous about prescribing to the wrong patient. There are so many safety parameters we put in place to avoid that. We're looking to optimize function. We're looking to replace a deficiency in testosterone. So we want to optimize these men to feel their best. And we're treating physiology and function over numbers. So I'm really paying close attention to their symptoms and what has brought them in. The levels in the labs that we check are really important to keep us within safe, not safe ranges to minimize side effects and adverse effects. But the range is so broad, 250 to 950. And that has changed very much over time, as we've discussed. So things that I'm checking on a regular basis, blood pressure. I want to make sure that a patient has well-controlled blood pressure. Um, we're gonna check labs such as hemoglobin and hematocrit. Um, we're gonna check that PSA, prostate-specific antigen, as well as the testosterone level. Um, as you mentioned, there's other things that can be improved, weight loss. I'm gonna look at the cholesterol, liver function, kidney function. So there are these parameters we put in place to replace testosterone safely. I'll check their estrogen level. So to make sure that's not going up. I don't want them to store excess fat as the testosterone goes up, the estrogen goes up. So there's really this great protocol that we use when treating testosterone patients to replace a deficiency. There are patients who are not good candidates, and not every guy needs testosterone. So this is how I can kind of keep close monitoring of my patient to keep them within a safe range, but helping them to physiologically feel better and restore them to a optimal level.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

I'm gonna actually go on the record right here, and I'm gonna say that I think testosterone therapy should be a weight loss drug.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

I really would I would 100% agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And it's kind of like almost like it's counterintuitive to think that it shouldn't be. You know, like if you have somebody with low testosterone and they need to lose weight, how are you going to keep their muscle on their body while they're losing weight if they don't have testosterone? And it can be done safely, like you suggested with all the treatment protocols. And there's if it's done correctly, there really is very, very, very limited risk involved with this if it's done correctly.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

I must emphasize the fact that done correctly and safely, and that means to be done with the provider that can see you on a regular basis and not a once-a year, twice a year kind of thing, because this is not benign. You know, if the um testosterone levels get too high, say above 1200 or so into the abusive range we're supposed to talk about in a minute, that's when you know the cat's out the back in terms of the side effects and really, really significant risk uh these people are putting themselves at uh in terms of the side effect profile for that. So it's really important to be able to be have a, you know, be monitored, check labs on a regular basis at the right time when you're taking the labs uh to make sure that you're see what your levels really are and looking at all of the full picture of free and total and that sort of thing to make the right decisions.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Aaron Powell So well, you mentioned the abuse piece just briefly there. Yeah, well, like what let's let's pull that out. What is what is the difference between reasonable testosterone replacement therapy and abuse?

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Aaron Ross Powell Well, that's the you know the typical one that everybody is scared of testosterone because of the bodybuilder, the the bulging muscles, you know, the the rage, the pimples on the back, you know, all of the things go along with that. But it's can be more insidious than that. You know, you can you have thickening of the blood, right? So you can have strokes and uh blood clots and heart attacks uh can come from uh from the abuse of uh of the steroids if you're not properly monitored and if you're really using it in super therapeutic levels. Um the uh temperament and aggravation and rage uh comes from that, you know, the cardiovascular stress. Um your lipids, you know, can can get out of whack um and get uh you know uh you know HDL, LDL going through the roof. So all these things can be very, very detrimental to to your health. If you look at kind of like I think there was a documentary about like the uh WWE wrestlers from like the 80s and stuff like that, and like how they're all dead. They're all they're all dead. They're all dead because they they they've they have they've jacked up on the steroids for for a decade for the entertainment, and they're all dropping like flies because of the long-term abuse and abuse of of this substances. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Almost all of them, too, is cardiovascular.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Trevor Burrus, Jr. All cardiovascular, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

You think about the you bring up the WWE and WWF wrestlers, uh and uh I'm sure some of their life was shortened by all of the trauma. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Of course. That too. I mean that's something the body should not endure that jumping off of ropes and and and what have you. But to your point, it's like a majority of them that I you know as a young as a young boy growing up, I I've watched them. I've watched them too. And it's like they're all gone. Yeah. And and uh it was you know um yeah, we we lost uh just recently we lost the good one here just not too long ago.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

So I think that the use of historically the use and abuse of anabolic steroids and testosterone and whatever you can get on the internet gives TRT such a bad and negative rap. But this is a naturally occurring hormone in the body that declines with age that we seek to optimize as men get older. And although there is risk associated with abuse and mismanagement, there are so many benefits of testosterone. I try to frame my thinking of reframe my thinking if a patient is untreated, if they have low testosterone testosterone, men and women, there's a detrimental effect. And we talked about the weight loss potential, and I want to add for men and women. So, but no, there's definitely things that you want to look out for. And I will see one of my patients on TRT every three to six months. I'll be checking labs. Um, I can only prescribe a three-month supply of testosterone. So there is safety parameters built in the sense that I have to see you. I can't really just take off and run with it, you know? So it's we have things in place to keep this safe for patients.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

And that that also can come, you know, because of this, it's I I just keep saying this point that it's why it's it's important to find a good provider because um, you know, there are these pop-up shops all over the place on the internet, you know, um, you know, selling testosterone without any kind of oversight or quality control and that sort of thing. And you can really put yourself at risk, you know, um, if you just kind of uh go to one of these, you know, um kind of fly by night. Uh you know, so do your research and kind of really look out for uh for good quality providers that have a uh you know a reputation and a and a history for treating this. That includes your primary care doctor. Your primary care doctor may not have the experience or willingness to even uh address these concerns with you because they just are they just don't know how to how to do it. They just not used to doing it.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Yeah. I I I recently ran just recently had a uh ran into a patient that was being managed with one of those. Just just happened. And um I actually didn't even know this was a real thing until this patient told me. But it turned out he was running hematocrit, which is hematocrit is the blood test when your red blood cells gets too thick. You take testosterone and your the testosterone starts to tell the body to make extra red blood cells, so your red blood cell level goes up and it affects the thickness and consistency of the blood. But this patient had a 56, which is high. You you usually want to stay below 50. It's a great number. He he he he had a thrombosis of his prostate. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he thrombosed his prostate. And I'm just like that's a new one. I mean, like there's not too many patients that run around to get thrombosed prostates. Right. And I'm and that there's a life-changing occurrence right there. You know, and uh and so you do definitely want to watch these blood tests and make sure you're doing it safely, like you're suggesting. So some risks that we think about with patients is one of the big things that comes up in patients, they'll ask us, like, what about fertility?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

So fertility is a big one. I'll always ask a guy, regardless of age, if he has any family planning on the horizon, because supplementing with testosterone can suppress sperm production and render you temporarily unable to conceive. So if a guy is interested in family planning at any time, I will advise him to plan to come off of the testosterone at least six to nine months before family planning to allow that sperm production to pick up again to where it was. And this should this conversation should be had with guys of any age because men are not truly limited by age when it comes to having a family. So I'll have this conversation with all my patients.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

For the most part, uh the original, I think the original study that came out on looking at the fertility component and sperm production in men with testosterone therapy actually, I think, came out of Japan. And they looked at it and in the that study, uh I think it had like an 87 percent success rate for um conception. Contraception. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah. Yeah, not uh and but it's not a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

And uh and I had patients that have you know thought that they were good to go being on testosterone and zero sperm production, and nope, they still got a baby. You know, so it's not a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

But neither are are you know oral con or other methods. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Yeah, other methods too. Yeah, absolutely. Aaron Ross Powell You mentioned this earlier and you started talking a little bit about the in the abuse about why it's polarizing. Uh what's what what do you think is the main reason that there is so much polarization is uh with testosterone therapy?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Aaron Ross Powell Well I think that it's it's kind of the how the media has portrayed it historically, you know, and um and and the misconception that I guess again, you know, like Stephanie had mentioned that you know testosterone is also important for women as well. But you know, the the notion of you know you take any kind of you know, testosterone, you're gonna just bulk up and be like 1980 Schwarzenegger, you know, which is not necessarily the case. It's about being in the therapeutic range for you. Now, you you know, we talked about how that normal range can be from 300 to 900. Well, 300 may be completely adequate for one person, but another person, you know, another man may feel sluggish and all the symptoms of of low T at 300, and they need to be at seven to 800, you know, for them to feel normal. But that's why the social and the history part is important in in terms of understanding this and getting people into a therapeutic range, not super therapeutic, you know, uh range, which is where all the complications and problems and all the confusion comes from in terms of the uh the representation of a roid head or something like that, you know, is I think is really kind of media-driven. And you know, we look at like the blood doping in in the Olympics and uh people got caught. People got caught doing doing these things, whatever. And so people associate any kind of supplemental testosterone with these cases. Um and when that is, again, super therapeutic, overuse, abuse of it, um, you know, as compared to being within a well-managed therapeutic range, there's two different things.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Sometimes I'll have a patient that, you know, that oh, I'll do testosterone therapy and they're on testosterone therapy, everything's fine. And then somehow in a you know in a future appointment or something, it'll come up that testosterone is a steroid. And you'll just see their expression on their face. It's like, what do you mean I'm on a steroid? Yeah. Because steroid has such a negative connotation. Yeah. Absolutely. And then it's like, yeah, but there's good steroids and then that.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

You know, if you're still doing it, fine. And we don't talk about andropause enough. It's natural for your testosterone to decline and you for you to need supplementation. So it's not just like you're you're already maxed out and we're you know, raising you to this unrealistic threshold with with risks associated, but you're low, so we want to bring you back to normal. Yeah. And I tell guys, if they exceed the max, you might put on muscle, but you're also at a increased risk of muscle injury. You don't want to overdo it. Now, if you're low and we optimize you to normal, you might have some nice muscle definition, you know, especially in an older guy. And that's just a fantastic benefit. Yes, it is. Um, and we want to keep you within normal, but feeling good.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

And then patients a lot of times don't realize or they or they think of testosterone in a silo focus. They think it's like testosterone is this singular hormone that's in the body that only has one effect, and that's not the case. Testosterone has an enormous effect on a whole bunch of other hormones in the body, such as the thyroid. Testosterone directly affects the metabolism by increasing oxygen consumption at the mitochondrial level. It increases the basal metabolic rate, and that supports thyroid hormones. Insulin, a lot of our obese patients have prediabetes or diabetes. Insulin resistance. You don't put muscle on that patient, you are not going to do anything to improve their insulin resistance. So testosterone therapy helps build the lean muscle mass and lessen insulin resistance, so insulin works more effectively. Estrogen, men need estrogen. They don't need a lot of it, but they need it. And testosterone breaks down, aromatizes, like you said, into estrogen. You also have cortisol, huge hormone. Cortisol, uh, to break this down, um testosterone, hormone, steroids are classified into two categories. Uh anabolic and androgenic. Androgenic is where all of the negative stuff comes from, a st of a of a steroid, such as deepening of the voice, facial hair growth, acne, those are androgenic effects. And anabolic are the positive things. That's where nitrogen is moving into the body, where you're developing muscle mass. And so you have a positive nitrogen balance going into the body, and then you have a catabolic. Catabolic is the breakdown of the body. So cortisol is the catabolic hormone, testosterone is the anabolic hormone. So they kind of like they're kind of like the offsetting hormones. They kind of like support each other and get like neutralize the body. I can't think of any other big, big hormones that it affects. I know that it doesn't work in a silo. I know there's there's some synergy there with growth hormone production and IgF-1 and um and sleep. It's a big one for sleep to allow the body to sleep more.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Aaron Ross Powell Absolutely. So we can think of testosterone as a hormone, as a steroid, we can kind of use those interchangeably.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Absolutely. All right. So if you got a patient and we're going to work them up for what does responsible evaluation look like for a testosterone patient?

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Aaron Ross Powell Well, you want to do a thorough history and physical exam to get a full picture of what's going on with the patient. But you also want to get a battery of labs. So you want to look at like, you know, the free and total testosterone, uh, sex binding globulin, um, sex hormone binding globulin. Sorry about that. Uh and and these kind of things, so you can get a full accurate picture of what's going on. Also, in terms of regular routine labs, like, you know, a uh the when we're talking about the thickness of the blood and the number of red blood cells, you want, because you want to monitor that very closely. Also their liver function tests and their um their cholesterol levels and uh and uh lipid lipid panels, because all these things can be thrown off with uh with therapy. So you've got to get a full snapshot picture and then retest these labs every three months to see where the patient is moving up or down so you can adjust your dose accordingly, continuously with the interviewing to see how they're responding to the treatment and the therapy. Also, the we talked about the uh the boosting techniques, you know. So we you employ those, make sure that they're doing the boosting techniques to optimize the non-pharmacologic um responses. So all of these things together, you know, you take into account with each patient to optimize their uh their treatment and their therapy.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Yeah, and it's a it's a totally valid point. You know, sometimes we s we sit around and we talk testosterone, testosterone, testosterone. We talked about boosting. But just when we when we employ or we treat a patient with testosterone, by no means do we ever suggest that they should stop eating correctly, exercising correctly, hydrating, sleeping correctly. I think that sometimes that's um some places, maybe the online resources or or whatever, that's just that's the shortcut. Just discount all of these other things. You can still boost and do testosterone therapy collectively together. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

I have more than more often than not prescribed testosterone with a GLP or a weight loss medication, another weight loss medication. It's a huge part of it. Um one more point about the elevated hematocrit, that increased viscosity of the blood. We see this often, not in every patient, but the solution is donating blood.

SPEAKER_04 23:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

This is a win-win. So I'll always ask my male patient, have you ever donated blood? Many people have. Um I have the fortune at my clinic in DC. The Red Cross is down the road. Yeah, so like a block away. And I so if your labs come back, so they can just head down the street. So that's kind of a great thing, but something that we can easily manage. And um, otherwise, I agree with everything you said lab management, symptom management, symptom improvement. So we're really going off of function and numbers.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Aaron Powell I also love how the Red Cross Cross now tracks your blood.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

They do.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

It's wonderful. It tells you exactly where it goes and you've saved a life.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Yep. Yep. And then also, you know, based upon your blood type, they can tell you when there's shortages and they hit you up when they are ready for more. Uh they could they keep calling me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

So TRT is a commitment. Um management, keeping up with it, but just a lot of education behind it, educating the patient. But it's very important and helpful, and it's a great therapy for a lot of guys.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Aaron Powell, but it's life-changing for a lot of men. It really is life-changing. Like, you know, um, and I'm one of those people that uh kind of it's really changed everything in terms of your ability to um to feel feel young again, to be able to do the things that you need to do to um be able to optimize your health and your conditioning. And you know, and once you start making those changes and you start feeling better, you can do more to just keep climbing up that uh that ladder.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Well great talk. All right. Thank you for both. Uh thank you both for being here today. And uh just in closing, here's the bottom line: testosterone therapy can be life-changing if done correctly, but it can be risky if done carelessly. When you do testosterone therapy or consideration of testosterone therapy, it's not about ego or chasing a number. It's really about restoring health and the benefits overall of testosterone, utilizing testosterone as a tool to get you there. The difference between therapy and abuse is oversight, knowledge, and responsibility. And ultimately, that's what protects you. So I want to thank you all for joining us on Vitality Unfiltered. I will see you next time. Make sure you hit the sub subscribe button below.

SPEAKER_03 25:27

Thanks for joining us on Vitality Unfiltered with David Bowder. Addressing norms, busting myths, and uncovering health realities for a more vibrant life today. For more expert insights and real talk, make sure to subscribe and join us next time.