Episode 19 - Emotions 101: Fear

https://youtu.be/SCHRbZtMWjI

In this episode of Psyched for Sanity, Dr. Doss and Dr. Parker continue the Emotion 101 series with a focus on fear. They break down what fear is, why it exists, and how it shows up in our daily lives. From survival instincts to everyday anxieties, they explore how fear influences our thoughts, behaviors, and decision-making.

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***Listener Discretion Advised:
This episode contains discussions about mental health topics and real-life experiences that may not be suitable for all audiences. While the conversation includes humor and personal stories, some content may be sensitive or triggering. Listener discretion is advised.***

#PsychedForSanity #Emotion101 #Fear #MentalHealthPodcast #Psychology #Anxiety

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello and welcome to Site for Sanity. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Brindle Doss. I'm a licensed psychologist specializing in trauma treatment, assessment, forensic psychology, and geriatric psychology.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

And I'm Dr. Tara McKelvey Parker. I am also a licensed clinical psychologist. I specialize in assessing and treating complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood. Okay. And I am very, very, very scared of bees and wasps and anything that would be considered a flying needle.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

That's what it is. It's a legitimately a flying needle that is going to stabilize. I wasn't prepared. A flying needle? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

I'm literally That's what they they have they stab, they poke you, they sting you, they harm you with their flying needle.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

I'm not disagreeing with the metaphor. I just love it though.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

That's why I'm scared. It's it's when we were on postdoc together, do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Oh my god, wait.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

When we we would sometimes sit most of the time. A lot of, yeah, actually.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

90% of the time because there was nowhere else to eat lunch.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

We they had picnic tables on the patio in the back, and we would go out there and eat. And the building is by like a woodsy.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

It was by a wooded like area. It's like all like overlooking complete solid woods.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

So there were many bees.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Anything that you presume to be a bee.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Anything that is presumed to be a bee, I'm literally in flight mode as fast as possible. I would like hop up on that picnic table. I'd be running down the patio before you guys even knew what was happening.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Yeah, we'd be like, what's going on? And she'd be gone. Gone.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

So you would move very that's the fastest I think I ever saw you move. I have try I've gotten better because I'm like purposefully trying to name my fear. Yeah. And like, you know, because they don't, it's like, it's not logical. If I just stayed still, I'd be less likely to be stung.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Yeah, if you move around a lot, that agitates the bees.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Exactly. So this I know this is a response is not super helpful. Right. You know, unless I can indeed get away super, super fast. But most of the time they've already flown around you and they're you know near you. You really don't like them. I really don't. And um, you know, so I'm trying to really name it good and feel it and tame it, and breathe through it. Yeah. And like stay still. Right. And like know that even if I get stung by a flying insect, I will probably be okay because I'm not allergic or anything. Like my life is not in danger.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Your life is not in danger. You're not on the precipice of death.

unknown 2:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Well, so spoiler alert, I also have a fear of a flying thing, but not bees. Okay. I am afraid of birds. Yeah, I think you've told me that before.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

And I I want to immediately make fun of you, but also there's a whole movie, scary movie, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

About a old movie, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

So, like, I can kind of get it.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Well, you're like, why are you? So I've had several traumatic bird stories. Uh, as a child, I was chased by geese at a park. Yeah, that is scary. And that's scary because I was the same size as the goose.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

That's actually very scary.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

And then second of all, I was going to, I was uh in my probably like early 20s, and there was like some trees outside where I worked, and a baby bird had fallen, and I was trying to like help the baby bird. And of course, when you try to help a baby bird, what does the mama bird do? Yeah. It was very upsetting. I'm like, I'm just trying to help. They don't care. They don't they don't speak English. And so, you know, so I just got assailed by birds, and also like much like bees, they're unpredictable. Hold on, bees are unpredictable or or birds? Both of them. You don't know which way they're gonna go.

unknown 4:03

Well, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

That's the same about cockroaches. You could say that about any scary insect animal thing. But fear.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Birds and like snakes.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Oh, see, I'm the snakes, I'm gonna be around. Snakes, you know what?

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Because nothing without legs should move that freaking fast.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Do they move fast? This is why maybe I'm not scared because I've never really encountered one.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

I have a serious snake story. I don't know if we have time for it, but I have a very scary. I was out watering my plants. I had an apartment complex before I had children, and I had my one of my cats that was um with me, and she likes to go in the patio. It's watering a very large, beautiful fern, a Boston fern, love a fern. It was watering, and I noticed something in there, but I'm like, oh, it's an in like a it's like a lizard. And I kept seeing parts of this like a body, and I found no legs. And then I'm like, oh. So then I was out there watering for at least 30 minutes. It was a hot day in Texas, and the cat was out there with me. And eventually I took a picture of it, and then I took the cat in me inside and I sent it to my friend who's a big herper. That's a name for a person that's really into snakes.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

You surround yourself with people who also do very special things, they know very special things. It's a very unique community.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Herper.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Herper.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Not no H-E-R-P-E-R. I have never heard that word. Okay, continue. Interesting. I'm sure that very into snakes is not the formal definition of herper, but that is the only definition that's coming to mind. Anyway, so took a picture, sent it to him, and I said, Hey, what is he's he's like, hey, where are you? And he he not he's not was not a fast texter. This is a while ago. And I'm like, wow, you're he's like, Yeah, that's one of the two poisonous snakes in Texas. Where are you? I'm coming to get that snake. Why did he come? Why did he go to the snake? Because it was it can't like be out. Well, it was on my patio, and it could have it could have if it had bitten me, I would have had to go. It was like a copperhead. Oh god, it was a copperhead. Oh my gosh. So he's got it. And it would have killed my cat if it had bitten my cat, and it would have definitely I would have had to be hospitalized for sure.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

But it was in my fern.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

That is really, really strange. Well, I was very scared. Well, it ties directly into our next episode, our next episode in this mini-series. Of emotions 101. Emotion 101. Yeah. This one's all about fear. And that's why you have a skull and crossbone sweater on.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Just I just wanted everyone to know why. So they're not confused. I think most people that watch the podcast that would observe my shirt be like, oh yeah, it's that weird one that um is unique and that the other one makes fun of. Yes, no, the the shirt. It's relevant today. It's it's intentional.

unknown 6:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

I'm not transitioning into a pirate.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

See, that's why I needed to clarify though. I wanted to make sure everyone knows you're not trans, because that's something that you could legitimately do basically. That I would be like join piracy? Unique. Yeah, I wouldn't put it past you. You told us. Piracy is illegal. You like you like to watch videos of of horse hooves being trimmed. You're not letting that go, are you? Fear, fear, you know, technically is you know, again, all emotions are messengers, so they serve a purpose. Right. And you guys have probably seen Inside Out, so you probably know this. Fear is meant to keep you safe and protected. Right. Yes. So in your situation, your fear was super helpful. Right? Like snakes can kill you.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Right. Yeah. Um and I wasn't afraid. I was just like more curious and you weren't afraid.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Well, because you didn't know yet.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

I didn't know what it was. I didn't know what kind of snake it was. Right, right. I don't like any snake, but the majority of them are non not going to like are not going to kill your own.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

So she's able to stay calm and logical when she's scared, unlike me, and I'm running she's on top of a picnic. I'm running away. Um, you know, but fear is meant to keep us safe and protected. So it can be super helpful. We all feel scared sometimes. It's really like, you know, take pause before you do that thing or investigate that thing further out of curiosity, right? Or like take precaution to stay safe.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Well, speaking of that, so I have a story to help people understand fear. You always have stories. I do. I'm a story girl.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

You said so. Let me just uh let's just tell you my story. And I'll listen.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

So, okay, imagine you and I are friends.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

I can picture it, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Okay, ouch. Whoa. We'll talk about that off the pod later. No. You and I decide to go for a walk together in a park that's in our neighborhood. Okay, it's in the evening.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

That sounds lovely. Oh, nighttime? In the evening. See, my fear is spiking. Why are we need to make the bees that come out at night? Because of the nighttime. We need to take appropriate precaution on this walk. What what what precaution do we should take on the always go in pairs? Oh. I was like, you're gonna bring like or maybe some mace. Oh continue. We're walking in the parking lot.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

We're walking on a path, like a concrete path. We're walking on a path, we're walking, we're chit-chatting, you know, uh nothing, nothing specific. And suddenly, um, out of nowhere we hear what is an unmistakable howl. It's not a dog barking, it is a howl.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Okay, okay. So I'm glad I brought mace.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

You're really drawing off my story with this mace.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Continue.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

So anyway, so yes, we have your mace, I guess, but I don't know. So normally, if one does not bring mace and want to fight a wolf, what you normally would have is that normally, typically, the hair on the back of your neck might stand up. Um, your body kind of is alert now on alert. Um, we'll talk about what that looks like in a minute, that alertness, but and you're within your body. But when you both discuss the wolf sound, then maybe you take precaution and the fear that you suddenly feel with a hair back of your neck motivates you to get off the trail and go to your cars.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah, maybe Mace might not work in this situation.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

So maybe you don't fight the wolf.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Maybe I'm just saying no, no, no. I'm not fighting the wolf. I'm saying if it's coming after us and we're running to the car, maybe I spray some in its eyes.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

I think you've watched too much Twilight.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

I yeah, probably. But I think I don't think they're unlike.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

You don't think so? No, I that's not that it wouldn't work. I don't think it's unnecessary. Just leave the trail.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

We'll just try to leave the trail, folks. So, yes, it motivates us, right? It motivates us to take precaution to protect ourselves in some kind of way. Yes. Um, you know, when we in our last episode, we talked a little bit about shame on steroids. Yeah, when you have toxic shame, toxic shame, when you have a history of abuse and or neglect, or you know, trauma in some form. Um whenever you have a history of abuse and neglect and you know, with fear, it becomes fear on steroids. Yeah. Right. So then everything feels lots of things feel scary. Gosh, yeah. And we feel kind of hyper-vigilant. So we're kind of always acting out of fear. We're scanning for threat or danger all of the time. If someone is behind us and you know, they like maybe bump into us, you know, the fear center and our brain kind of lights up, and we may think that's the amygdala. The amygdala, there's some kind of harm intended. Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

You mentioned hypervigilance. Yes, I did. Would you like to hear about the HPA axis?

SPEAKER_02 11:03

I am going, yes, I would love to.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Are you sure? Yeah. You don't sound like you want to.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

It's because it confuses me, but I'm willing to listen. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

All right. So when you are walking in the woods or you perceive you have that trauma event, whatever, you perceive some type of threat or danger. The fear center sends out a chemical messenger to the next part. So the HBA axis stands for hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis. And this is literally the way I like to view it, is literally like a waterfall effect of neurochemical um reactions or like messengers within the body that tells the body to be prepared and to be alert.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

So once the amygdala activates the hypothalamus and then it goes to the pituitary. You've lost me. So these basically it starts in the brain. Starts in the brain, there's a waterfall. Yes. A neurochemical waterfall, literally hormones. Okay. And the last step of the waterfall, it releases cortisol in the body. Okay. This is a really rough. I'm sure we'll have our critics out there, but this is this is a rough.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Yeah, yeah. But that that that little that kind of helped me visualize it a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

This is a rough sketch of this axis that it basically the whole purpose of the HPA axis is to maintain homeostasis in the body. Homeostasis meaning calm, relatively relaxed state where you're not, in terms of physiological or body-based arousal, you're not um super alert, you're not super drowsy, but just calmness within the body. And so the HPA axis, when it's activated, is a negative feedback loop. The way it's supposed to work, when it's working effectively, is that it's activated to alert the body to prepare for action, which is the message, right? Right. So the the hormone that really you probably have heard of that's ultimate result is cortisol. The last step is the cortisol is released in the body. Cortisol will send the muscles and the blood towards the muscles away from digestion, away from reproduction, and it prepares the body to engage or to move. Yes. In some capacity.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

So when you And then return it to homeostasis.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Yeah. Okay. That does make sense, that makes sense. I f psychophysiology was hard for me.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

I loved it.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

It's a lot of details to hold on to. Yeah. But that makes sense. So, you know, folks with who are hyper-vigilant, right? This process is happening over and over and over and over. It's being triggered over and over and over and over. Like for, you know, like the w because so many things feel scary, and then even if they are, you know, aren't, or you're safe. Right. Right. Like kind of everyday things.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

And the chronic activation keeps a higher level of cortisol in the body and prevents the body from returning to homeostasis. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Yeah. And cortisol is associated with all kinds of physical health issues.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Excessive cortis.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

Excessive cortisol, yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

It's a health, it's a natural process in the body. But when that heightened stress happens and it's maintained at higher levels than is typical.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

That's when it can start to deteriorate. She mentioned trouble with digestion, you know. So like physic when we talk about the different ways that fear manifests, one is somatic. Yes. Or bodily symptoms. Right. Right. So you may not feel a lot of fear. For me, you know, I that is one of the primary ways that I experience fear, but I have a lot of the bodily stuff too. Um, so people with you know overactivation of this system, who are like in chronic stress, who have a lot of cortisol, they're more likely to have like bowel issues. Right, stomach issues, definitely. Definitely. All of that stuff really upsets the pain within the body, like physical pain. That's one of my big ones. Called armoring. When you're hypervigilant and you're sort of always prepared for something to happen. Always tense. Like your body just kind of like does this. This is like physical armor of like bracing. Right. And so for me, like that's where a lot of it is. I have to do, you know, I have to like be aware. You have to intentionally like unlike clench my body. Unrelease the muscles, right? Unclench. Yeah. It's like literally like a clenching of the body. Right. Um, that happens from that overactivation of cortisol. Um, normally too, so it's all in the spectrum. We all do this stuff sometimes, but when it gets to be like armoring, like really kind of like chronic, right? It can you know be more from hypervigilance. Um, what are some other ones? Like b bodily sensations manifestations of anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah, like some people will have recurrent pain in a specific region of the body that's untied to a known injury.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Um you have body pains, fatigue is another big one. Right, because of all of the like um, you know, when you know, this and this is really more again, you know, you can be scared sometimes, and you can be scared often or all of the time. And that is when you get into more of the sort of overactivation. Um, and those folks are exhausted.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Because it's just like a lot of energy. Because the body's working so hard to expend energy to keep it on alert. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Literally, actually, so you are tired. Yeah. Um, you know, so fatigue is one of those things that go with anxiety. So you may not feel anxious, right? But if you're noticing any of these physical signs of fear or anxiety, then it's possible that you are experiencing fear.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

I noticed you said two different words there. Yeah, I know. Caught myself. Yeah. So, but that's not a bad thing. So let's talk about that. So, fear and anxiety. How are those two? Obviously, they're related. Some people might not know that, but they are related. Can you explain to our viewers and listeners like how are fear and anxiety tied together?

SPEAKER_02 16:47

It's a good question. I mean, I think so I I guess first and foremost, I do conceptualize emotions on a spectrum. Yes. You know, so fear is like primitive.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

A spectrum of intensity? Intensity, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Fear is primitive. It's like something bad is going to happen to me. Like I need to move. Right. Like I am unsafe.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Well, all fear at the at the heart of it is fear of death and or serious impairment.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Or abandonment, rejection, extreme loss, like extreme loss, because that triggers a lot of fear too. Like more primitive fear. Yes. So I think about fear being like really intense and really primitive and like core, and anxiety, um, sometimes like feeling like feeling less intense and then being more of the manifestation of fear. So, like, you know, when I think about all these symptoms I just mentioned that go with fear, yeah, they're core symptoms of an anxiety disorder. They are. To me, anxiety, when you have like a generalized anxiety disorder, which means that you are scared all the time. Like you think something bad is going to happen. Oh, if I'm late, I'm gonna be fired, then I'll lose, you know, I'm not gonna have any money, and then I'll live under a bridge. Yeah. Right? It's like this kind of um, you know, like cognitive manifestation of this fear that you have about being like not being able to survive.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Yeah, and that those can present as like racing thoughts, that rumination that you mentioned, catastrophizing.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Yes, exactly. So these are some of the more cognitive manifestations of fear. Right. Like, yes, when I have um, you know, stress about money. And so, really, if I kind of follow my line of thinking back, sure, it goes, oh, that's always about living under a bridge. Like, I will be like homeless, right? Like my fear tells me like if I don't make enough money and like I can't pay my bills, and then I can't like I have a place to live, and then I'm gonna like be on the streets, and that is like incredibly scary. So that's why I'm like, you know, that's like the origin of my fear, you know, anxiety about money. Is that motivational? So it is motivational when it is to a lesser degree, right? But when it gets really intense, it's not motivational.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

What happens then?

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Well, what happens then is I, you know, well, what do you know? That's when the f we freeze, right? Like this is where the four, you know, I think I've talked about it in previous re remind everybody of it. Um the four F's, you know, this is when our fear is on steroids. This is when like it feels really, really scary. We can't see past it. Um, you know, this is when, you know, we usually we have a history of like trauma. Um, we do like these four strategies unconsciously and automatically. One is freeze, like I can't do anything about this. Like, I'm just going to avoid the money situation.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

And I'm just so it's complete and utter inaction. It's not motivating change or change in behavior.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Yeah, you just kind of you freeze, you feel hopeless, you feel overwhelmed, you're panicked, you just can't do anything. Okay. Um, or you dissociate, um, you know, as well. You just kind of like. Um, then there is fawn, and that's when you're that's a newer one. It's a newer one. Yeah. It is when you are it's kind of pe people pleasing, like to the nth degree, you know, at the expense of your identity and your wants and your needs, and you're sort of like, you know, it's all about the other person.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

It's doing anything I can to make myself feel secure.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Well, yeah, in the relationship, yeah. So because the fawning is like a protective strategy from being left, usually or um, and then we've got fight, you know. So then the mace and the wolf. That is my fight response. I should be proud of myself because I'm not usually a fighter. But um, I guess woman imaginary.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Someone be in the car wolves and mace and wolf. Like that's the thing though. Like, you're gonna just leave.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

Why do you need to like and folks, flight? Sorry, is the other F. Yeah, it's it's just getting out of there, leaving running. Dr. Daws in the car. Yeah, it's me and the bees. Um, it's just like you take flight when the bees come after you. I do, and flight is one of my primary strategies in in general. Because it also is overperforming, um, you know, staying extra busy and productive and achievement oriented to the you know, right? It's all of those things too. So that's flight. Um, yeah. So those when that's when we're in like hypervigilance, like really scared, like I'm unsafe, not like oh, maybe this is a poisonous snake. Right. And I need to investigate, slash, get help, slash kind of like keep my distance because that's protective and like normative.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Right. Um relatively motivational, but not overreactive.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Yes, yes, yes. And so, yeah, so that's why I use those, I guess, interchangeably, because that is how I kind of conceptualize. But so fear cognitively, you know, the black and white thinking. Yes, absolute thinking. That's a real big one. So, like I suck, or you know, they suck. It's like that black and white, like can't see gray area thinking. You can't balance out our perspective. Can't integrate is what I like to say. Like you can't integrate at the same time that you are a good person and also make mistakes. Right. It's just I suck. Okay. Um, so catastrophic thinking. So I'm probably living under a bridge. Right. That's catastrophic. Like the worst case scenario is going to happen. This is definitely fear and anxiety. Yeah. Um, mind reading is another one that I is common, I think, is like um assuming you know what that person's thinking about. They probably hate me. They probably think I said something really dumb. Um, these are manifestations of fear and anxiety. Right. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

You said racing. Racing thoughts. Yeah. Just where your thoughts feel like they're tumbling like so fast you cannot get one or the other, and you feel almost like out of breath from how fast your brain is spinning and spiraling without any kind of balance or reality testing.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Yeah. So you're hitting, yeah, you're hitting on the racing and also sort of the disorganized. Sometimes it's like they're going really fast, but also sometimes they're jumbly and they don't make sense.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Jumbly and all over the place and just distorted. Chaotic.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Distorted, chaotic. This can be fear and anxiety. Absolutely. Um, and then looping.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Oh, okay. Looping.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Looping. Oh my god, I said that thing to that person. They probably think I'm the like biggest loser.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

So you're just rehearsing it, re rehashing it over and over again.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Over and over and over, and it gets really loopy. Right. And that can be anxiety. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Yeah. So cognitive, yeah. Those are so we've talked about cognitive, we talked about somatic.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Have we talked about behavioral?

SPEAKER_02 23:28

No. Behavioral. Okay. Yeah. What are some behavioral manifestations of anxious fear and anxiety that you might recognize in yourself?

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Yeah. I think it might feel um I think any emotion can be manifest. Most emotion can be manifest to the body. I don't, you know, can't. I think your chest can get tight for some people. I think you can get tense too with an fear, like rigid. Kind of like that freezing response you talked about. Yeah, definitely. Um, what do you think behaviorally? How do you think fear would manifest to the body? Well, you'll be running, running from bees, running or wolves.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Um, yeah, so those you're talking talking about two, yeah, some more sensations or bodily sort of ways that anxiety can manifest.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Behaviorally, I think about running, restlessness, that used agitation, not being able to sit still.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

That used to be one of my main tells. Like I could not sit still for a movie.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Like I felt like I needed to be doing something all of the time. Right. And I'm better at this, but one of my main when I start to get hyper-vigilant and scared, like I'm a fleer. I'm just gonna stay busy. Stay busy, I'm gonna distract myself, I'm gonna do more work, I'm gonna do more things, I'm just extra productive. Right. Um, so that's you know, when you notice yourself and just not even it could just be also like fidgetiness, like restlessness, right, right? Like in the body, unable to hold still.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

So that's why some of these things can start to look like ADHD because it's like you're it's ADHD, attention deficit, hyperactivity disorder, and anxiety are so commonly mistook for one another. Um, we've had we have episodes on that as well about how important testing is to help people differentiate between the two.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

This is one of the things I actually love to do with testing, is some of this emotion 101 stuff. Right. Like when they come in with these symptoms and they're wanting to know what to attribute it to. Right, to understand. And then I, you know, like if they're getting an anxiety disorder diagnosis because they are chronically anxious or hypervigilant, and then I love talking about fear and trauma because so much of us with anxiety disorders, you know, we we had adverse childhood experiences.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

But well, I wanted to talk to you about another thing that I a kind of example that I use in terms of hypervigilance, another story.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

We get I get this is bonus story. Yeah. Too for no, so I think sometimes having like I use this a lot in my clinical work. I don't often use it, but metaphors can help people understand things from a different perspective when it's sometimes not as personal towards them. So I kind of conceptualized hypervigilance, especially as it relates to trauma, is like a house. I tell people, imagine that you're a house and you're a nice house, you you know, the lights work, everything's pretty good in the house, things are functional, and you have an alarm system in the house, you know, to detect danger or burglars or things like that. And then unfortunately, something happens, a trauma, traumatic event happens, and the house is um is hurt, damaged, robbed, um, something. Something severe and negative. And the alarm system it it went off, but it didn't functionally like fully protect the house, right? And so after that event, the house is tries to like figure out how to protect itself from things happening. So what the house does in terms of hypervigilance is it definitely turns up the alarm way up, super sensitive. So that way that the alarm system in the house to prevent future danger.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Where the alarm system is going to go off if like a leaf hits the windowsill, other than the alarm will go off. And this keeps happening where the house is again, it's trying to protect itself from future potential danger. It makes the sensitivity so high that it's going off all the time. The wind blows too hard, the house is the alarm's going off. And then what happens to the body is that when your HPA axis is constantly um, you know, acting being activated, and when you're experiencing hypervigilance and that high level of cortisol, over time the body becomes less responsive, and you can develop um adrenal fatigue. Um, but it becomes less responsive to cortisol. And in terms of the metaphor of the house, because every time a leaf hits the window, the house isn't being invaded.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

The house over time learns to ignore its alarm. So because the alarm is not accurate in detecting danger, it learns to ignore its alarm. And eventually the alarm in terms of metaphor can almost be like basically off.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Yeah. Which is also not productive. It's well, yes, and because then you can't accurately detect if you're actually safe or not, because everything feels unsafe. Yeah. Right, exactly. Um, you know, so I think when it comes to, you know, I think we I was going back to the behavioral, making sure that we also yeah, hit on those. But I think in terms of like how to treat fear, like what to do about fear.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

What do we do about fear? How do we manage fear? Like ultimately.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Ultimately, like name it to tame it. Name it to tame it. You know, be able to identify it inside of yourself in some kind of way.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Right. I literally encourage parents, uh uh people that I work patients to like say it in your head, or if you're alone, say it out loud. I am scared right now. I'm feeling afraid, I am anxious.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

And you can begin to do that if you start to notice some of these signs, some of the cognitive signs that we've outlined. Or the bodily signs, the bodily signs, behaviorally, you know, we mentioned the restlessness, but you know, to there is also um irritability to that. Irritable without a reason common one, irritability, um, compulsive or repetitive behavior, yes, rigidity. Um, when you you know, someone who's like behaviorally very rigid, that's usually like a behavioral manifestation of like fear and anxiety. Um, so once you can recognize that you are scared, name it. Yep. Okay. But for me, I'm very somatic. I can feel it. I like to and I think ultimately it's really helpful to teach people to be able to feel it in their bodies. Right. Um, it's just a sensation that will pass. Right. And to be able to tell yourself and really believe I am safe. And right now I'm I'm I'm actually safe. I'm okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

No one is there's actually not real wolves coming at me.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

There are no wolves. I, you know, I'm not going to live under a bridge. And while it is financially, you know, it's scary. Sure. But I have friends. I have resources. I have resources. It will be okay, but it feels so scary. But you you really have to be able to tell yourself that you are safe in some kind of way. Breathing through that fear in your body, talking to your mind and that narrative that it spins, right? Being able to ground yourself. Grounding is, I think, a huge thing. Notice your notice your surroundings. Right. When you are scared, take stock of what you are doing. Sure. You are physically safe. Nobody is around. Everyone here loves you.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Right. And I think that you talked about like anxiety, but I think sometimes you have to do to relieve anxiety and fear, sometimes you need to be calm and still within yourself, right? After you name it. And other times you need to sometimes maybe move your body, maybe go for a brisk walk.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Those are the things that will be yes. So, you know, ultimately it's about creating safety, but sometimes in order to do that, we have to do like different, we we engage in different kinds of strategies. So, like for me, you know, when I'm feeling in my body, I breathe. But and you know, I tell my I tell myself I'm safe. That helps me. Right. But some people, especially like maybe when they're more restless or more irritable or have more energy or agitation, right? Like some like intensive exercise. Some type of movement. Some type of movement. I mean, you know, walking to eat it actually, like for it for at least for trauma survivors when they're getting when they're really, really agitated or really, really ramped up, like like like intense, like kind of like getting it's like a way to get all that energy, anger, excess out. Um so yeah, some kind of move, but for for me, I'm less I I enjoy more of the down, the down regulation strategies.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

What your anxiety is telling you, what it needs. What can you do, whether it's down regulating or upregulating, to be able to tolerate that emotion and receive the message?

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Once you learn how it manifests inside of you, then you can kind of start to fit techniques that are good for you. So if you notice restlessness, you're that activity is gonna be so important. If you notice armoring, like for me, tenseness, teness, like bodily anxiety. I have to foam roll, I have to get regular massage, I have to stretch, like those knots are all just physical manifestations of that cortisol. Yeah. That's in my body. Right. It's just all in there.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

You know, so um progressive muscle relaxation helps me so much when I'm armoring. Um, but the I'm I also am a I'm a cognitive girly. So there's all that stuff about everything's black and white and loopy and you know, catastrophic. So I have to like really be intentional about challenging that thought process.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Right. And I think recognizing that you're not being attacked by wolves, that you are safe, I'm yeah helps people receive the message that hopefully can be motivational.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just it's you know, fear we gotta bring it down just enough to where we can like really act um with clarity. Right. Because when we're scared, we just kind of react.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

We just the ultimate message of all of all fear is motivation to action.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

So whether it's a thought, a feel a physical action, a like behavioral one or other. Um what are you gonna take away from our conversation with fear today? You had a lot of anxiety about this episode.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

I did uh think pointing that.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing with you.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

I know. And so you notice the first thing when you ask that question, my brain froze, and then I was like, oh crap, like my brain's been kind of jumbly. Like, what am I gonna say? Yes, because this was a stressful episode because I was very aware of my own fear and anxiety while we were talking about all this. Um, dude, like what I have needed for like three weeks now is a massage. I have a great person.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Well, thank you. I do, I have a I have a person. I just haven't done it because I haven't prioritized it. My body is like in pain. So I am more acutely aware of that right now. Um, so when we're done here, I'm gonna schedule a massage.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Great, yeah, good, good job motivation to action. Thank you. You're welcome. I think I'm taking away just I really appreciate the body's amazing ability. And I think recognizing how phenomenal the body is at at helping us understand our experience because the ultimate goal of all emotion is to tell us about our experience in the world. We haven't really talked about that. I think we should next time we talk about our emotions one-on-one, is how the emotions as messengers work. But really, today I want to leave everyone with my appreciation for generally like how unique um we are in that sense and like how our complex systems are so helpful if we can understand them and work with them.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Yeah, yeah, and then sometimes just get some of these emotions down enough, you know, right, where we can we can move and we can make change.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

I hope people take away the the idea, at least the hope that they can learn with a trained therapist um how to manage their emotions. I think a lot of people feel out of control.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Yeah. Well, and when we don't know what's happening, it's hard to control it's very, very, very hard to feel like you have a sense of agency over your own healing. So that's why the emotion 101 piece is so important to me. Like if you can recognize it, then you can name it and you can figure out some right other way to cope. In particular, if you are, you know, a little bit more severe in your dysregulation, if you do have that like abuse, neglect, or just chronic stress in your childhood, it's something it gets really hard to do. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

So we appreciate you guys doing the hard work with us today.

unknown 35:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or any kind of professional mental treatment. We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely, and we hope that occasionally will make you laugh. Maybe you can relate to our quest and our sight for sanity. The content we share is um our personal opinions and insights. They are not clinical insights to anyone, and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we worked at or have worked for in the past. But if listening to this podcast has to make you think, we really encourage you to speak as a mental health professional in your area.