Episode 26 - Child Development: What Parents Should Know

https://youtu.be/dZ9104o7HNI

In this episode of Psyched for Sanity, Dr. Doss and Dr. Parker explore child development and the different stages children move through emotionally, socially, and behaviorally. They discuss what development typically looks like, common concerns parents have, and why understanding development can help support kids more effectively.

Follow us: 
Website: https://www.psychedforsanity.com/
Facebook: Psyched For Sanity Podcast
instagram:    / psychedforsanity  ​
TikTok:    / psychedforsanitypodcast

***Listener Discretion Advised:
This episode contains discussions about mental health topics and real-life experiences that may not be suitable for all audiences. While the conversation includes humor and personal stories, some content may be sensitive or triggering. Listener discretion is advised.***

#PsychedForSanity #ChildDevelopment #ParentingSupport #MentalHealthPodcast #Psychology

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hello and welcome to Psych for Sanity. I am one of your co-hosts, Dr. Brendel Doss. I am a clinical psychologist specializing in trauma treatment, forensic psychology, geriatric psychology, and assessment.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

And I'm Dr. Tara McHelvey Parker. I am also a licensed clinical psychologist working in private practice. I specialize in assessing and treating complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood. And I want to tell you this little story that inspired today's episode. Oh goodness. Yay! And oh goodness. The star of the story is my child who is four, naturally. Okay. And historically speaking, there have been many meltdowns involving her wanting to do something. Right. That I accidentally do first because it's just sort of like normal human behavior. Right. So like going to open a door, for instance, my child may be really angry about that because she really likes opening doors. She does like I've noticed that. She really loves really into it. She's really into doors. She spent like a year at Little Gym opening doors for people. That's like how she was exercising those core muscles, I'm telling you. And so I just let her do it because I'm like, cool, like that's cool. Exercise, you know, right? The skill she's building, whatever. But anyway, she would have pretty epic meltdowns about things like that. Okay. You know, if I like deemed it appropriate maybe to like break her banana in half, and she really wanted that banana hole, it might like result in an epic meltdown. Yeah. Right. And that's pretty, like, pretty common for toddlers. But, you know, my daughter, she's four, like closer to four and a half, and we haven't really had those meltdowns in a while. There are meltdowns about other things, but that has like kind of, you know, been a thing of the past. The other day, I was making her dinner. Yes. And she asked for a piece of cheese with her dinner, and I was like, sure. And I went to get it, and I was going to like unwrap the cheese, and she had one of those meltdowns, and it lasted probably at least five minutes, rolling around on the floor. Oh. Full out meltdown because I had opened her piece of cheese. Dare you. And she really wanted to open that cheese. My gosh. And then I and so I was like, oh my gosh, like, is something going on? Why are we having this meltdown again? It's been a while. Yeah. And so then I thought, you know what? It is so often that I'm worried about something with my daughter because I don't really know what's developmentally appropriate. Or maybe you don't remember in the moment. Or don't remember in the moment, sure. Or like, you know, so I thought it might be really helpful helpful to have an episode on child, you know, or episodes on child development. Because I think the more that we know as parents, the more we know, like, okay, what's typical, what's normal, when to seek support. It can just help us with our, I think, like low level anxiety that we always feel. Stress tolerance.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Our children. Right. Well, fun tidbit. I once had a patient who had a three-year-old, and that three-year-old melted down because the father would not let the patient eat a dead fish that was on the side of a lake. Not sushi. Not a cooked fish, but a dead fish that was on the side of a lake. Yeah. I hear you about the uh wrapping up the cheese. I think that's common that we hear, and those are just it's like so frustrating because it's like, why are you so irrational?

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Well, and I kind of felt like I like a part of me was like, I thought we I thought we were like moved past this. I thought we were over this. That's why I really wanted to do because of course I was like, you know, on Chat GPT and like Googling, like, you know, what's going on. And so then I was like, you know, like, okay, this is like apparently kind of normal. So these regressions and these ebbs and flows, so why don't we do an episode on child development? And since we both have kids in the three to five range, we thought we'd start there. We know about the most baffling development of that time. Yes, and one of the more like baffling sort of age groups. Exactly. Yeah. So ages three to five, we wanted to go through what's developmentally normal so that we can kind of help you guys feel a little bit more confident, a little less anxious if you're like me and you're like, I thought we moved out. I thought we moved past this. Is this normal? And do I need to worry? Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

That's always the question I think a lot of parents have is do I need to worry? Yeah. Is this something I should like seek support with?

SPEAKER_02 4:37

Yeah. So ages three to five, big feelings. Yep, big imagination, big boundary testing. Right. Um, really rapid skill development. Right. Like overnight, right? Like your child could be acquiring a new skill.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Like they wake up one morning and they're like acting like they're 17.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Right, exactly. Yeah. Um, but also, and this helped me when I was thinking about my daughter, and you know, what kind of inspired this episode was like the idea that development is uneven. Yep. So, like in some categories, your child could be pretty, you know, sort of advanced, in others, they could be right on track. Um, within each domain of functioning, there's a lot of regression and inconsistency.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yes. Sometimes we have to take steps backward to take steps forward in development.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Right. It's sort of like up and down, up and down, back for you know, back and forth.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

It's not a progressive stair step, stepwise fashion at all.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

We want it to be that.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Why well and we kind of like, yeah, think it should. We don't I don't know if we naturally think about like growth means up and down or it means regression. Right. Um, that's just really normal. So that helped me when I was thinking about my daughter in in terms of this meltdown because it's like, well, she's like had it pretty, you know, we haven't we haven't had that challenge in a while, but it makes sense that there'd be a little bit of a regression or like, you know, in some instances she may be more upset when she hadn't been for like weeks. So it's like if you ever find yourself thinking my child should know better at this age, it's probably a little bit of a trap because they just kind of go, they're in and out of skill development.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Right. Well, they have a lot of they they can perform them, but it's really inconsistent.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

It's really inconsistent, right? So that's the point I'm trying to make is like with you know, my daughter's meltdown, it's like makes sense that she would revert back or she'd have some trouble when she had been able to do it before because it's so inconsistent development uneven. So yeah, I mean, I thought we thought we could maybe go through some different domains of functioning and kind of talk through what is typical for this age group three to five and when you may want to seek some support.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Yeah, and when we say domains uh functioning, we really mean basically areas of your child's life. Um, because a domain is like, you know, we have so what would be the first domain as an example?

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Like emotion regulation. So this is the one that I'm often thinking about with my daughter, and and that came to mind with the meltdown.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Because, you know, this is this is one area of functioning that I think can be pretty challenging at this age group because um their emotional brain is dominant, like there's no logic design. It doesn't, it's not, it's not developed.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

You cannot rationalize with them.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

They cannot rationalize, they cannot perspective take. Um, so really it is three emotions that is guiding their behavior. Right. So lots of emotion, but very little ability to regulate that emotion.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Right. There's a really uh famous study that's popping into my brain, and I don't recall the author, so I will have to uh apologies to the to the to the internet and social media world for this. But there's a really famous child development study where they took children and they had like a little miniature scene on a mountain. Do you remember this? There was a miniature scene on a mountain on one side of the mountain, there was like it was like there was no um there was no scenery. But on one side there was like little grass and little like a little train set, and like a little like a miniature you'd see. And they put the child, it was behind glass, and the miniature was, and they said, Okay. They said, There's another child on the other side of the mountain. What is the other child seeing? And children in this age range said, Well, they're seeing the same thing I am. Right. So that's the inability to take to take perspective, right? I think that comes in around maybe like starts to happen around seven or eight, and even then it's still in flux.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Right, exactly. And then with logic, you know, we really don't see that sort of developing strongly until like 12-ish. So we're just all emotion with really little ability to regulate. Emotion and water. These kids, yeah, it is very common to have meltdowns in tantrums over very seemingly small things. Absolutely. Like me opening a piece of cheese or opening a door. Right. You know, for kids this age, they want to do everything themselves. Yes. And so it is very disappointing when you open a piece of cheese that they had really decided they'd like to open and you had no idea.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

And they're literally developing the skills, hopefully, with your help. We have a whole episode you guys can check out on emotion regulation and parenting on emotion regulation. Um, but that that upset and that disappointment is so big and they have literally no functional or structural understanding of that experience, and so it's just so overwhelming.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Yeah, and that's why at this age, kids still largely rely on co-regulation to feel better. They do not have the emotion regulation skills to deal with that really intense feeling that they're experiencing in their body. So the most, and we have we do have a whole episode on co-regulation, but the most important thing is that you are staying calm and you're able to stay present and help contain, you know. When Penelope was rolling around on the floor, I just, you know, sort of stayed nearby and I was like, Yeah, you really wanted to open that cheese. That's really sad, honey. I'm sorry. Right. And she, of course, demanded another piece of cheese, and that is where I held my boundary. I was like, We're not opening another piece of cheese, honey. I'm, you know, I'm really sorry. Right. You're gonna have to eat this cheese if you want the cheese. And she ate the cheese.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Eventually, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

Eventually ate the cheese after she was done on the floor. But you know, the the tantrums, the meltdowns over small things common, co-regulation necessary, um the inconsistent empathy. Yes, I have that experience with my oldest, and it's really distressing.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Sometimes I'm like, oh my god, this is there's sociopathic or is there psychopathic tendencies that I should know. That's me being dramatic and and and fear-based. No. But it's really it's really hard to understand that development of empathy and like how you can care for others and care about their experience because that's this period of development is so self-focused for them.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Um another one that's still pretty common at this age is aggression when overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

When overwhelmed, yes. When overwhelmed, so pushed.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Still the biting, the scratching, the hitting, the shoving when overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

And it does totally just not from a place of malicious intent or like um intent to like functionally cause harm in their way. There's just so much emotional energy, and energy, you know, cannot be created or destroyed. It has to go somewhere, and sometimes it comes out in negative ways from their body, which is um really hard for me. We've talked about this as well. We all get really triggered when we're hurt by our kids physically. Yes. And it's hard to manage our emotions in that situation.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Yes, and we don't want, you know, I don't want my because my daughter does when she feels overwhelmed, she still does, she can still become aggressive.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Um, even though that's getting a lot better. Um and so I don't want, you know, her to hurt other children. That comes into play too. I start, you know, feeling kind of anxious about um, you know, maybe she's going to be a bully, or maybe she'll never grow out of this, or maybe she'll be hurtful to other kids. Um, so this was this piece was also helpful for me to remember and remind myself about that.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

My three-year-old has this, um, has physical aggression because sometimes he his mouth and his brain cannot work fast enough to come alert us. But when his sister his older sister's really working hard to annoy him and she's not listening to him, he will get physical with her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he is so overwhelmed and does not have the resources yet to fully integrate to say, Mom, so and so is bothering me, or mom, get her out of my face.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Exactly. And for for my daughter, she has um, you know, a language, an expressive language delay and some articulation issues. So speech is hard for her. So when she's especially in the playground or at circle time, and there's a lot of kids around, and you know, turn taking and sharing and all of that stuff is like a component, and she's it it's hard for her to sort of verbally. So what else in this domain do we need to be aware of? And when should we seek support? When we should okay, so when we so all as a lot is like sort of pretty still typical, chaotic and twirly. Yeah, but if you're feeling like any of this stuff is really persistent or pervasive, like if we're seeing very severe aggression that is happening more often than not across settings, across settings, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Or tantrums lasting longer than how long, like as an estimate. And this is variable, of course.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

This is variable. I mean, I would say typical is probably under 30. We're getting closer to that that hour mark, 30 30 minutes to an hour. Yeah, and it's like happening more often at multiple settings too. Then you you want to ask yourself, is it persistent? Is it pervasive? Right. Is it causing impairment? Is it limiting their ability to be with others or to learn or to engage school or to engage socially, or is their mood are you noticing, you know, anything like that? You want to ask yourself in all of these domains, that is when you're probably gonna want to seek support. Okay. So for what about attention in executive function? Because that's another one, I think, wildly misunderstood category, and this is where like concerns about ADHD come in for younger kiddos.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yes. They don't really have this, they don't have the ability to focus for long periods of time. They cannot, they they have still um the ability to first like preferred tasks. If they like it, they can sit and do it for 30 minutes. But for non-preferred tasks, it's developmentally appropriate that they have what a minute, maybe even 30 seconds sometimes for certain things.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Yeah, I would say like no more than five. I've heard like a minute per um year of age. So like from my daughter who's four and a half, five minutes is gonna, I mean kind of max things that she doesn't want to do. Right. Like dinner.

unknown 14:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Same my daughter's the same. This is another area where I've Googled pretty heavily. Like, is it normal that my child doesn't want to sit to eat? Right. And it is apparently still very common. Trying to graze, grazing, wandering, not sitting for longer than five minutes for something they don't like.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Yeah. Yeah. And this is also where the differential ability comes in, where sometimes they can perform things randomly really, really well, and other times they cannot with the, you know, executive functioning abilities.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

It's inconsistent, it's inconsistent, and definitely stronger for preferred activities and weaker for things they don't want to do. Yeah. What else? Impulsivity.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Oh, big area with an executive function. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Highly These kids are impulsive, meaning they are not thinking about what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Well, they literally don't have the brain capacity to do that yet. Impulse um an inhibition or stopping impulsive thoughts or impulsive behaviors is is the prefrontal cortex. And they're still growing there. Literally, their brain is still functionally getting bigger. So they don't have that in their hardware yet.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

Yeah, their ability to sort of think through things or you know about the consequences of the consequences, stop, pause, that reflect. That's not working memory. So your you know, ability to sort of like remember to do multi-step things, like being able to hear your parents say, like put on your PJs, you know, go brush your teeth and get in bed, like that kind of thing is is challenging for a three to five year old. And yes, selective hearing. Selective hearing, yes. Yeah, they'll just listen the they'll hear they hear what they they'll respond to what they want to respond to.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Yeah, and that's developmentally appropriate and expected, and then they're not trying to be a jerk on purpose.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yeah, yeah. I mean, still that idea, like a lot of times with my daughter when I'm trying to get her attention, she can she's very absorbed in what she's doing. Sure. And so that's all of this is really typical.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

That's the that's the shifting attention that's part of you know, of eventual executive function functioning.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

But when you're developing it, you don't have the ability to shift attention easily.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Right. So it's really common to not hear or get really absorbed or get distracted when you've asked them to do two or three things or um, you know, not like act.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

You know, act before they they think or be able to process. That's all super common ages three to five. Um and it's frustrating for us as parents for sure and exhausting. Yeah, yeah. Oh, definitely. You know, what yes, when I feel like I have to tell my daughter things multiple times, it does get really frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Yeah, it's so hard not to respond negatively in that place.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Yeah, and I find it the most helpful to go up to her and get her attention. I have to tell her, you know, hey, look at mommy. Sometimes I'll ask her just to test her to see if she heard me. Like, did you hear what mommy said? A lot of times she's she knows what I've said.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Right. Too. You know, she's but she's engrossed. I have a cue word that I use with my daughter. For some reason, she really loves numbers. She still is is kind of a numbers girly. And I'll I from a young age, when I was trying to get her attention, I'd say 48 or random numbers, and she would try to say that she would say the number back to me. That's funny and then it kind of cues her into hey, hey, fool, I need you to pay attention to me. I need you to focus on something.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and the you know, yes, the common denominator being for these kids, it is unrealistic to expect them to pay attention or to necessarily hear you when they're engrossed in the world. Or to retain something that you've said. Exactly. Or like if you're in another room, that's all bets are kind of off you. It's all of that's super common. So it's helpful to have a strategy, right, for getting their attention, being near them, you know, that kind of thing to help.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

When do parents and when should parents or caretakers look to seek support if they think this is above and beyond what I'm experiencing for that's a good thing?

SPEAKER_02 18:11

I think that's a particularly good equ good question with this age group because I do get referrals for ADHD for kids four to five. Yes. Um, and four or five is probably the youngest I'll even take a look at at ADHD for kiddos, but I'm pretty clear with parents that it's it's pretty challenging to determine if that's going on in this age range. They're still so young and these executive functioning skills are still developing. But it is a good idea to have a baseline at that age if you're concerned. So it would be worth it to, you know, maybe get an assessment. But it's any it's anything in these in this category that feels like uh above and beyond their peers, like like super above and beyond. Like, you know, if they're in school or daycare and they're having a hard time being focused in you know, circle time like all the time, every day. Every day the teacher's talking to you about it. Tons of redirection, that kind of you know, or can't follow a one-step direction. Can't follow one-step directions, um is impulsive to the to the point where they may be putting themselves in like dangerous situations, yes, you know, like darting into the road kind of thing, despite um repeated teaching, despite, you know, like like trying to sort of teach this lesson. If it's still like they literally can't control their bodies in in these kinds of instances where they're getting into unsafe situations, that could be absolutely that could definitely be.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

What's the next domain that we're gonna be looking at then?

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Um social functioning. This is another one I think that is like kind of vague, and there's some such uneven skill development that I think I th I thought I learned a lot and thought it would be helpful to talk about. So so what do you think about social development for this being?

SPEAKER_00 20:06

This is a transition period in terms of social development in my mind, where they're transitioning from kind of parallel play where they'll play, they'll play with, and I'm using ear quotes for those listening, with someone, but they're not interacting in that play. So that's kind of like playing like in parallel to someone else. Right. Well, this is when the beginnings start towards the end of this developmental period of interactive or cooperative play, and it's still rough and bumpy and and uneven. Learning to play together. Taking turns is hard in this period of time. Very hard for my child.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

She will literally say that she doesn't want anyone else to be around because it's just it's so much harder to share space and take turns. So it's really not super realistic or appropriate to expect a three to five-year-old to want to take turns and share.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

I think that's the that's an important nuance that I want to make sure and highlight for people. They're not gonna want to do that. It's okay, and it's uh generally speaking, appropriate to sort of help and be open to teaching. But harping on that or making that a huge focus or worrying about it if they're not great at it, it's maybe less helpful to you and your kid.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Exactly. Is that a good way to frame it for folks? Yeah, these are all skills, like all of these things in the these domains, like they're developing and they're teachable. So it's not like we don't want to be encouraging turn taking and sharing. Right. Um, but we want to to keep in mind that it is not easy or realistic. So if there are big feelings also about having trouble, you know, not wanting to take turns or share, that's okay. That's appropriate. This is a common one from my daughter, common meltdowns around this kind of thing. Right. He won't share, she won't share, right. And also, I'm trying to, you know, with my daughter encourage like her to, you know, keep a hold of her things for, you know, as long as she wants to, and and she. Share when she's ready. So that's an added layer. I feel like that makes it a little bit more complex. So you know, I try to when another kid wants something that she wants, like, you know, are you ready to share? She'll say, No, okay, let's go a couple more minutes and then we're gonna we're gonna be done with our turn. Right. But these are ways that we encourage skills. We're developing skills and we kind of have to scaffold and teach and then expect that they're gonna have a harder they're gonna have a hard time with it. Right and lots of big feelings around it.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

It's I always remind people, um, anyone, anyone that's looking at learning a skill or helping someone else, like a child, learn a skill, it's called learning. It is not called knowing. And we go to school for a large number of years in the United States to learn things. So it's unrealistic in my mind that after a week or so of an introducing a new skill or encouraging a skill socially that a kid would know it.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

No, and also like this is this is so true with my daughter, like we are like kind of harping on. Sometimes she we can like go to social place like public places and she is a rock star sharing and taking turns.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Like other times. Other times, I'm telling you, we have to take multiple breaks because she is screaming in kids' faces, right? Like not wanting to share or take turns or like unrealistically expecting all the children to do what she wants. Right. My daughter has a problem too. She's kind of my she wants everyone to do exactly what she wants all the time. And that's not socially acceptable. No, but it's also very common in this group. So it's like balancing this expect like this is normal. Right. And also we can't yell in other children's faces. Oh, that's not true. So we have to take like a lot of breaks. Right. And I'll just take her to a quiet place or a place on the side, and she will usually just sit or get in my lap or and find a way to co-regulate. Yeah, we'll take a few minutes and then she'll calm down and then she'll be ready to try again. And sometimes she can do great, and other times we have to take another break. We just keep taking breaks. And then we just keep trying because I'm, you know, trying to develop the skill we're learning, right? And there's big feelings, and you know, so sometimes when we're out, that's kind of like what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

What is um in this domain? So we've covered three domains in the social domain.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

When should a parent or caretaker seek support in this domain? Because this is really tricky.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

If you notice your child is not more of the time not interested in engaging with other people, so lack of interest. Lack of interest in in interacting might be something that you would want to seek some support around or kind of be curious around. Um I think about the the sort of social give and take.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

The reciprocal interaction.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

The reciprocal so if they're sort of like inconsistent or limited um being able to do the give and take of of of that, you know, social interaction. So like eye contact or sort of responding to names or questions, or when you seek connection or bids for connection, they don't seem interested or like they're motivated or able to reciprocate.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

And that could be verbal too, but and it's and this is important for kids that are shy or more reserved. That's not what we're talking about with this. There's a real distinction where again, a lot of these things when we're talking about seeking support, it needs to be across settings, which means at church, at home, at s daycare or school, all of these areas, there's your your your kiddo is struggling in this area, and then that's more of the motivation. If you just have a little shy girl or guy, yeah, and they just need longer to warm up, or they only feel comfortable with like maybe a cousin or someone they're really familiar with, that's just called being introverted. That is not a cause for concern. That is different than this.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean exactly. So, um what else? So we've got um, so I think the independence and autonomy. This is a big, this is a big category. Big. Okay, so these kids ages three to five, um, they are in this developmental period called initiative versus guild. Okay. So Eric Erickson, very famous psychologist. Yeah, like sort of yeah, popular um child development, like psychology child development psychologist and researcher.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Would be considered one of the fathers of child development.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

One of the fathers of child development. He sort of created or kind of came up with these stages of development. Right. The idea that, you know, at at each stage there is there's a task to be accomplished, or there's like a child has a primary job. Right. So for this age, the primary job, like what they are supposed to be learning, is that they can act on the world. Okay. That they can make a difference, that they can explore, they can take action, they can create that they can't. Their impact matters that they have agency that they can like do upon the world.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Which is why there's so much autonomy seeking and so much trying to open doors and open cheese packets, even if sometimes you can't eat a dead random fish on the side of a river or a lake.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Exactly. So basically you get a lot of um, you know, I want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

No, my no, I'll do it myself, or I don't want to do it. Let me do it. Or yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Yes, all the time. So then with this stage, it's super, super common to have a lot of power struggles.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Right, because sometimes they're gonna want to do stuff that they a functionally can't do.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Or also with me, one of my growth areas is like I have this time urgency. So if there's not enough time, that's that one gets in the way for me and my daughter.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

A lot of parents feel like we gotta go. We have to we don't have a ton of time to let you kind of wrestle with your socks this morning.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Yes, right. So I will often talk to my daughter about like, you know, we don't have time to practice today, honey. Right. I know you really want to. We'll, you know, we'll do that on the weekend when we have more time, or I'll give you one more minute, sweetheart, to do that yourself. And if you can't, I'm gonna have to help you. Yeah. And of course, this is on mornings where I'm super regulated and it's going super well because other mornings I'm like in the car.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

She's joking. She's telling a jokey joke, guys.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

I have to go to work right now.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

We have we're late.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

We're late. I try I try, I try really hard not to put that on her, but it is hard when she wants to do everything herself. So the agency, it but it's like their job because if they're able to successfully get through this developmental period, the idea is that your kid will feel confident to initiate. Right. Will feel like they can act and explore and be creative.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

And, you know, that's it's hard because it can be scary for parents, but the goal is to foster this independence. To foster it. And to foster it without shame, without fear, like it making them fear like, oh, you're you you know, you don't want to make them afraid to be adventurous or to try things. Sure. That can be problematic. Yeah, but in exactly with limits. Right. Right. So I'm like not going to Well no, things wouldn't be functionally unsafe, but if you just have a personal anxiety, like I have a personal anxiety that's slightly irrational. Like I have the door anxiety of my kid's fingers being indoors.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

So we've talked about this. Yeah. So like I, when when her daughter comes over to my house, I'm very anxious about doors. But her kid's an awesome door door closer.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

She loves doors and she's really good with doors.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

So it's my issue where she's okay to have this autonomous independence. It's a me issue, not a Penelope issue.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Yeah, I do think our fear and anxiety absolutely gets in the way of allowing our kids to be independent and autonomous sometimes. Right, definitely because of our fear. And I don't I'm not scared of the the finger thing, but I have definitely other fears. And other areas. In other areas that make it challenging for me to let her have autonomy and do it. And I'm often sort of teetering between like is this safe? Can she do it, or do I need to help? And so we get into power struggles. Right. And there's resistance because I'm trying to allow her independence, but also there are limits and then, you know, yes, anxiety, concerns, it allows you.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

I think a lot of parenting is teetering.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

A lot of parenting is teetering right on the edge of something really.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

How can I help to keep this kid safe but let them experience what they need to experience in the world?

unknown 30:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

So tricky.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

And it's like literally the job of these children. So it becomes like kind of important for us to manage some of our anxieties and you know, for me to like take a deep breath in the morning when I'm feeling really For me to have confidence in Penelope. Exactly. Um, so you know, like if if our own anxiety does get in the way too much, or if you know, all of this is discouraged enough or punished, right, then it is more likely that a kid is going to feel guilt about their needs.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

They may feel um, you know, you may get a child who's a bit more overly compliant.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Which sounds good on the front, right? Oh, a compliant kid, I would love that. That would be wonderful. Please give me one.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Well, and that's why I said overly, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Well, and that's where that's where it's really more about um even though it's really frustrating and hard in this age range, it's so important to have this ability to allow them to explore the world around them.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Exactly. Yeah, so that they can develop this confidence and you know, you they can they can speak up for themselves and experience.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

This is a tricky one, I think, when looking at seeking support though. I want to make sure we have time for that. What would if a kid um that you're with or that you're you're parenting when would you seek support in this area?

SPEAKER_02 31:26

Well, so I have some experience here because I, you know, have recently s um kind of sought out some more support for my daughter because sometimes I think when things are more chaotic or she's more anxious or she's having more trouble, some of this stuff gets super rigid. Like really, really, really rigid, like you know, bossiness and wanting control, all that's really normal. But sometimes she can really get like it it it starts to impact functioning, right? It starts to get in the way. Right. Um, so we've sought out like some play therapy for her to help, like a little extra support in that way. So if it starts to feel rigid or like problematic, again, pervasive, persistent across settings, impairing functioning.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Right. If you're having a meltdown that's over like 45 minutes because they would not they they wanted to tie their shoes and they cannot downregulate, that might be a time to do that.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Yeah, especially with support.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Right. Okay. So, you know, I think this um this stuff is just important to keep in mind because we want to have appropriate expectations for our three to five year olds.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

What's the last domain that we have to look at today?

SPEAKER_02 32:30

I so sensory, sensory sort of challenges and transitions.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

So let's define sensory real quick for some folks, because people might not understand this that are watching or listening. Sensory is basically we have the five senses, and kids that might have um so senses are another thing that develops, aka is like growing and developing. We don't come with a fully intact set of sensory understandings, like our brain and our body.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Yeah, it doesn't process sensory information perfectly well.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Right. Right out the gate. So sometimes in kids in this area might be like more sensory-seeking, meaning they're looking for more sensory experiences, which is my daughter from a young age. Like moving a lot, doing a lot or like spicy stuff, dropping loud stuff or rubbing the carpet, rubbing it. Like trying to touch everything, even though that's not always appropriate. Yeah. That is actually within within within reason totally appropriate at this age, as well as the avoiding piece. Like not like like you know, for a while I would have to cover my kids' ears and almost sit in a closet because the lawnmowers were here. Like that level, right, of challenge can be somewhat typical in development.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

However, if it's persistent, like noise sensitivity, clothing, right, having clothing preferences, like food texture issues, all this is pr developmentally like pretty normal and normative. But again, like if it's pervasive, persistent, like you know, you're having severe meltdowns, tantrums, like bit power struggles over clothing, right, or you know, it's it's limiting functioning because of noise or light or whatever, that would be a problem. But absolutely in general, that stuff is typical, difficult to transition, so more meltdowns around changes in routine or bedtimes, morning times, like times where there's more transition.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

And they have to change from one area or activity to the other.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

To another. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or yes, more stressful life situations. All that would be considered transition, and and kids this age have a hard time with that. Um, the whole post-school meltdown, that's pretty common.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Overwhelm of coming from yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Being able to kind of hold it together at school for most of the day and then really losing it when they get home. Right. Um, super common for my daughter for sure. For a lot of people's kiddos, I think. Overstimulation. So that's all really, really common in within reason. As long as it's not pervasive, persistent, and like impairing and across settings. That's really what we're wanting to like drive home. So I, you know, these keep these in mind for just when you're worried about your kid, or when you, you know, ask yourself, like, is my expect is the expectation for my child developmentally appropriate based on what we've told you? And then I think that can just help, right, with a framework.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

I think it helps us tolerate, knowing that it's it's it's typical or relatively appropriate for them to have the struggles and for you to kind of unfortunately struggle with them. Anytime we can understand our experience as people and parents, it makes it easier to tolerate and get through. So that's kind of I think the overarching thing that I'm taking away from today is it's typical for my kid to feel like they're a jerk that can't share, and it's mean, right? And this period's typical.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

It's pretty typical, and it's something that we really have to help develop. So that's you know, kind of what I is that what you're taking away taking away from here a couple of things. One, it's totally regressions are normal for a kid to revert back to unhelpful or more immature behavior in some ways in this age group, and then also it's really about teaching skills. Like our kids, they're not giving us a hard time, they are having a hard time with the skills that they are developing.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Right. It's not personal, it's not personal.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

We're we're we're you know, these kiddos have only been in the world for a limited number of years. I'm like, gosh, she's so tiny, she's been here for four years. I have these troubles, and I'm a nearly 40-year-old woman. I have meltdowns.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

That is a whole different episode. That's a whole different episode.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Like, she's four. I think she's okay, and I think we're doing our best.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

We're doing our best, and you're doing your best.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

We're all doing our best, and we thought just having this information would be helpful and you feeling a little bit more confident that you're doing your best.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Right. Leave us a comment, let us know your parenting journey if you are one, or maybe like your journey as an aunt or uncle or around kids. Um, we'd love to hear from you. This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or any kind of professional mental treatment. We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely, and we hope that occasionally we'll make you laugh. Maybe you can relate to our quest and how we're psyched for sanity. The content we share is um our personal opinions and insights. They are not clinical insights to anyone, and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we worked in or have worked for in the past. But if listening to this podcast has made you think, we'd really encourage you to seek out a mental health professional in your area.