Psyched For Sanity

Episode 30 - Understanding Child Development: Ages 6–9

• psychedforsanity

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 39:28

Send us Fan Mail

https://youtu.be/htvFwiBpMv8

In this episode of Psyched for Sanity, Dr. Doss and Dr. Parker continue their discussion on child development, focusing on children ages 6–9. They explore the cognitive, emotional, social, and behavioral milestones that are common during the elementary school years and share practical insights to help parents and caregivers better understand and support their child's development.

Follow us: 
Website: https://www.psychedforsanity.com/
Facebook: Psyched For Sanity Podcast
instagram:    / psychedforsanity  ​
TikTok:    / psychedforsanitypodcast

***Listener Discretion Advised:
This episode contains discussions about mental health topics and real-life experiences that may not be suitable for all audiences. While the conversation includes humor and personal stories, some content may be sensitive or triggering. Listener discretion is advised.***

#PsychedForSanity #ChildDevelopment #ParentingSupport #MentalHealthPodcast #Psychology #Parenting

SPEAKER_00

Hello and welcome to Psych for Sanity. I'm one of your hosts, Dr. Brindle Doss. I'm a licensed psychologist specializing in forensic and clinical psychology with areas of forensic psychology, geriatrics, child treatment, and assessment.

SPEAKER_02

And I'm Dr. Tara McKelvey Parker. I am also one of your hosts and a licensed clinical psychologist. I specialize in assessing and treating complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood. And this has been a morning. It's been a morning. I think both of us have lots of wrenches in the plans.

SPEAKER_00

Um wrenches in the plans for today. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_02

Am I messing? Yeah. I don't know what wrenches in the plans are. You've not heard that saying? Am I making that up?

SPEAKER_00

I think you just like conflated two different sayings.

SPEAKER_02

It's been a morning, is what I'm saying. My brain is not here. It's halfway gone. But we were commiserating about our kids. We're doing another child development episode today. And so we were just sort of commiserating about our mornings with our kids today. Um, I am perpetually surprised by school holidays. Like I literally, and I must, I've there must be something I like about it because I have not changed this habit. I don't look at the calendars in advance. So I'm just like literally surprised by a school holiday yesterday at 5 p.m.

SPEAKER_00

But I feel like I feel like there are several areas of life that you just like, you just don't do. You're like, oh, that's that's a thing that exists in the yes.

SPEAKER_02

I it did not occur to me until the other day when a friend told me she was like, I look at all the school holidays in advance and I'm gonna put them on my calendar. And I was like, That's smart. Seems like a good idea because I'm perpetually surprised by school holidays. So we had to record this morning.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, we're recording today. We're recording right now.

SPEAKER_02

I have my four-year-old daughter, her child, like that needs care, and she has no school. She needs care. None of the family members were available. Right. So I was like, what am I gonna do with her? And I was gonna bring her here and give her like wow, a movie and be like child development live. Like just that would be a whole different podcast. Go over there and watch a movie and don't talk to me. Right. But I felt like that might be tricky with a four-year-old. My very daughter in particular, because she likes to be interactive.

SPEAKER_00

She's especially you. She definitely likes to be with you.

SPEAKER_02

She likes to be with me. She does love movies though. So I thought it was a gamble. It's 50-50. So I was so I realized I had like passed by this drop-in sort of like daycare center by my house before. Uh-huh. And I remembered it and I was like, I'm gonna just see how my daughter will do going there. And she's pretty shy, she's pretty cautious.

SPEAKER_00

Like reserved.

SPEAKER_02

She's reserved. She doesn't typically like love new people right away. She does warm up.

SPEAKER_00

Neither of our daughters are go with the flow people.

SPEAKER_02

They're not go-with the flow. They're pretty sensitive, like you know, um, strong-willed, I think. Like anyway, so it was like, you know, so and I've never dropped her off at any place like this. All of her, her school and her care has been like pretty consistent, the same people. And I do this like purposefully because she does have this temperament. So I want it's like good for her to have routine and structure, but it's also good to challenge these kids to do something new. Right. And if I could get her to like this place, then I could use their services more because it's drop-in and you just pay by the hour.

SPEAKER_01

Love it.

SPEAKER_02

So I was like, I'm just gonna like take her for it. It was like, you know, five o'clock. I pick up my daughter from school and I'm like, let's just swing by and do a tour. Cause at the very least, then she can like lay her eyes on the space and like maybe see like a teacher, like familiar face, and maybe it will I could do it. And I'm like, so we're going to the stake, you know, the daycare center, and she's super shy, and she's like not looking at anyone and not engaging. I'm like, sure, great. This is like a good sign, sarcastically in my brain. And then we leave and she's like, I wanted to stay and play. And I'm like, Oh, what? I guess you liked it then. Um, so this morning, I saw I was panicking last night. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna take her. We're gonna do it. We're just gonna do it. We're gonna do it. Yep, we're gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. So I prepared her and you know, told her like what we're doing, when I'm picking her up, and she was like, Cool, yeah, I'm gonna go. I'm like, who is this kid? This morning. What are you and what did I do my child? This morning I was like super nervous, but I like was like taking deep breaths and I was trying to hype it up for her, and she was like ready to go. She was like, I she said, I got this. I'm like, okay, girl, you're feeling yourself. Like, I love this. Like, this is not always the case. Some morning she wakes up and I'm literally like, are you possessed by a demon? Right. Like, you know, grumpy. So I was like, okay, so we go, and I'm like, I'm waiting for her to scream or protest or cling to me and refuse to go. And I'd already like prepped myself. If this happens, I'm going. She's gonna be safe. Yeah, the daycare workers will handle it. Like, I am not traumatizing her. So this is all my fear and anxiety, and just like really trying to hype myself up. And you did a great job. She did not care, ladies and gentlemen. She went, she had her little blanky and her stuffed animals. She left. She was fine. Willingly. Peace out. Yeah. And then I ran. I ran as fast as I could to my car just in case she changed her mind. But she didn't. And I called a bit ago and she's totally fine talking to everyone, playing.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm just like, make sure you bring home the right child. Because now it's gonna be hard to tell her apart.

SPEAKER_02

It just feels good because it's some days it is incredibly hard, and I worry about her. She's, you know, more, more cautious or whatever. And I know like she'll get there in her own time, but it's it's hard. And so I when they're in distress, it's so hard for us to be like, well, and I'm like, you know, like okay, like she can't do it. Like, you know, it's she's gonna freak out. Like this makes me, you know, I've been feeling guilty and all the things, but it's it was felt really good to know that she's okay and she did it, and it was like a challenge and it was kind of a gamble for me to stretch her, but she did great. And I'm just like proud of her and proud of me.

SPEAKER_00

I'm proud of both of you. Um, and I'm glad you had a good morning.

SPEAKER_02

I know, and I know you didn't. So I'm like, I'm this is I am grumpy. This is like really not super typical either. Because I feel like I'm usually the one that's like meh nah nah, and you're like, I'm like, oh, we work we worked through it.

SPEAKER_00

No, we didn't work through it today, guys. Didn't work through it. Someone, not to name any names, but my kid, my kid, I was so proud I woke up on time for recording today. I I got dressed and I got ready. And I'm normally in my family like the one that can keep like we can be running late because of me. Okay. Full of transparency.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But we had to drop off the kids um with my dad, and this is a standard thing for her entire life. Every like certain days of the week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She goes with since she was in a since she was in a carrier, my father has been taking his grandchild and grandchildren on certain days. Yeah. This is not new. But today, this is what happened. She didn't eat enough of her breakfast. She was refusing her breakfast, and then she lost her ever-loving bananas because her ever-loving bananas. Yeah, I'm not trying to curse. I don't went in trouble with Chris, the editor. Hey, Chris, shout out. Love you, buddy. Uh I don't want to make his job harder. And she literally lost her bananas today because she couldn't watch TV first this afternoon. Short backstory. For our kids, we let them watch in the mornings if they're home. She goes first and my son goes second. In the mornings, in the afternoons, he goes first and she goes second. For Pharisees. Two two children problems. Yes. Yeah. And they each get like one show, like 30 minutes, 20 minutes, and that's that's the screen time for it today. But she, for some reason, because she was hungry for a reason, lost her ever-loving mind because she was not gonna get to go first this afternoon, which she never does. She never does. But she threw off the whole family this morning, and I left my amazing, I know, wonderful coffee at home.

SPEAKER_02

It's very disappointing. When you have that cup of coffee that you've made just the way you wanted, exactly. And then you leave.

SPEAKER_00

And that you've already paid for. Well, yes. And then on the way here, not one, but two different coffee shops were out of order for some reason, which is that should be a good thing.

SPEAKER_02

That's actually really crazy and it blows my mind.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I mean, yes, yes. Yeah. So I arrived here in quite a state. I'm an estate. We're like an hour behind schedule today.

SPEAKER_02

Because of uh, well, you know not because of her, just because of, I think, the state of things. I've been it was just one of those mornings. One of those mornings. So really, you know, child stuff, child development. I mean, last time we talked about ages three to five, and that's where our kids currently are. And that mine's on the cusp. Yeah, sort of younger developmental phase. This is what's coming for me next year once you turn six. Yes, but six to nine is what we wanted to do next because that's where we're headed. And if you're any what we're afraid of. Exactly. If you're anything like us and you're anxious about your kids and you know, doing well enough for them, then you know, this will be helpful because that's the reason why we wanted to do these episodes. Because if you know more about child development and what is typical or normal for certain ages, it's less scary. When they say the thing or do the thing and you're like, oh my gosh, is there something wrong? You can be like, No, no. They're supposed to be they're supposed to be doing this, they're supposed to be saying this. Absolutely. And it's actually really super normal.

SPEAKER_00

And not only normal, but like typical. And it's like it's literally sometimes I think it's helpful for parents to hear, they are supposed to struggle. Yes, they're supposed to be intentional, they're not trying to be jerks on purpose, but they're supposed to have moments of being jerks in development.

SPEAKER_02

Well, because it's all it's all about learning, it's all about learning and developing skills.

SPEAKER_00

Um and they do that within homes and families, yeah, and within and within themselves.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. So you know, three to five, there was a lot of it. We talked a lot about inconsistency with development. Ages six to nine, and that way is a little easier. Okay, more structured. Mm-hmm. A little bit well, a little bit more consistent within their domains of development. Gotcha. Um, and also we're not quite as, you know, it's not quite as focused on the big feelings like we kind of emphasize three to five. These kids still have big feelings, but they're able to participate and regulate a little bit more. So there are some differences um in a positive direction, but it this age range definitely comes with its own challenges.

SPEAKER_00

With its own challenges, what's the core thing that this age range is wrestling with?

SPEAKER_02

So we talked about Ericsson last time. Um, ages three to five was can I try? All about sort of acting on the world in a lot of different ways, doing, trying, experimenting, experimenting. Um, ages six to nine, the core developmental question becomes can I succeed? Am I capable? Am I capable? So kids this age become very focused naturally on achievement, yes, now mastery, learning skills. Um and so, you know, because they're entering school, like school is more structured now if they've been in school, like more formalized. Yeah, they're they're learning reading, they're learning writing, they're learning friendships, they're learning hobbies.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Um, so they are very they're really focused on achievement and competence and mastery and learning new skills. So if a kid can sort of successfully get through this developmental stage, what's the stage called? Just to make sure we talk about that real quick. It's called industry versus inferiority. Right. So if they successfully make it through this stage, then they have industry, which is the capacity to try something.

SPEAKER_00

This is so huge.

SPEAKER_02

And to be able to succeed in a way that makes them feel capable.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

They start thinking, oh, like my effort matters. I can I can do this. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Like I got this. I wanna this is such an important thing. And I think this is such a huge thing that I I preach across the ages, even with people that are adults that did not receive this. Uh-huh. The the concept that their behavior matters and that they can handle whatever happens to them and that they can impact the world. So I think this is such a huge critical time.

SPEAKER_02

It really is, and I think it's sets the stage. Sets the yeah, sets the stage for their sort of budding self-esteem.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And like confidence. Yes. And industry or agency. Right. Um so if a kid though doesn't sort of get through this developmental phase successfully, you know, finger, you know, air quotes, whatever, um, then it means that they start developing this idea that I can't do it. Right. This is too hard, other people are better than me.

SPEAKER_00

Or that they don't feel like their behavior matters or that they can make a like a difference, or like it doesn't matter what I do.

SPEAKER_02

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And this can come, you know, if a kid sort of is is unsuccessful, um, it can stem from excessive criticism. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um, or they just buy rescued by a parent.

SPEAKER_02

Um, yeah, yes. And we'll talk about this a little bit later. But yes, when parents sort of rescue and don't really let their kids struggle, but yes. And believe me, I understand that because it comes from a place of anxiety. Yeah. And I've been there. But um, yes, definitely. Um, chronic failure. And this happens a lot with kiddos who do have like um kiddos with like learning differences, potentially that kind of thing at school, maybe could you know, more likely have like more failure in some academic areas. And so without the right support, they they can't. Without the right reframe about maybe this is not your strength, but other things are, or maybe like reframe right support, like all the things, and they can start to really feel incompetent. Um, also things like um yeah, unrealist unrealistic expectations. Yes, you know, then kiddos kind of feel like they can never quite be good enough.

SPEAKER_00

So or how they do if like let's say I think we talked about this at the younger developmental point, but you know when your uh toddlers doing something they were horribly wrong, like they make more of a mess, but they're trying to learn something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's the criticism component, but also I think in this stage, your kids obviously may be getting better at sweeping the floor with the chore. Yeah. But if you rush in and fix their mistakes in front of them or or highlight how it's not done exactly to your standards, that can be, even if you're not directly criticizing them. I think when I hear criticism, I see a parent be like, da da da. Maybe you're not doing that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But maybe you're maybe you're kind of like overcorrecting or really trying to do it your kind of way and you're being controlling or what in a variety of ways. And so when we go through this, we'll talk through some examples like that, but it is really helpful to be able to step back and allow your kids to learn and maybe scaffold or kind of guide or you know, but kind of let them make mistakes and mess it up.

SPEAKER_00

I try to tell people this is called learning, it's not called knowing.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. But like the messing up can be challenging, um, you know, for me. That's hard. Like with a lot of people, yeah, the messing and the messiness that comes with messing up, right? Like, no, I'm like picturing my daughter trying to learn how to like get water out of the refrigerator and just like spilling all over the floor.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm like, I think there's a lot of videos of a parent like in the background freaking out and a kid pouring milk all over the countertop.

SPEAKER_02

And then, like, you know, like you kind of guide, depending on whatever. But yes, scaffolding and helping. Um, so that's the main developmental question task goal. So let's go through talking maybe through some of these domains of development and talk about what's nor normative and when a parent might be like concerned. Concerned, like concerned, concerned enough to seek support potentially. Um, and kind of talk through how you can help them reach industry in all of these different ways. Um, you know. So okay. What first domains do you want to cover first?

SPEAKER_00

Let's do executive function. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So executive function.

SPEAKER_00

In this area, there's more ability. As we go on, there are some, like you are slowly leveling up, but they still are gonna be disorganized. They're still gonna need structure and reminders.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, still messy.

SPEAKER_00

And their attention's still gonna be very variable at times.

SPEAKER_02

Pretty, pretty, I mean, I would say limited and variable for sure. Yeah. Um, so yeah, you're not, it's super common still in this age range, six to nine, to have messy folders, to have messy backpacks, messy rooms, to have a hard time following three or four-step commands. Losing things, losing things. Um definitely now, yeah. I mean, they are kind of leveling up, so you're not, it's not gonna be like three to five.

SPEAKER_00

Right, they can handle those two-step directions.

SPEAKER_02

They can handle the two-step directions a little bit easier, but they still need frequent reminders for things. So you mentioned routine and structure. So in order to help them, because you are at this stage, parents are are needing to be much more involved in coaching and helping them learn skills. So with executive function, this is a skill that kids actually need help developing. Sure.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And I think when we talk about coaching or like things like that, the way I like to help people say it is like first modeling, which means showing them and then letting them try and then supporting them as they fail and learn.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly. So, so we'll we're gonna be talking about coaching or modeling and all that stuff throughout because it's super important. So for exactly, changes across the age here. Yeah, exactly. You're really wanting to create um, you know, spaces for things like a backpack hook. Like these important items go in particular places as an example, or having like checklists for chores. Okay. And you know, you you maybe would have like two or three chores at this point. Right. So it's sort of limited, um, visual, concrete um, in terms of some of these structures or routines to kind of help them start developing executive function skills.

SPEAKER_00

What about the social emotional domain? I think that's such a fascinating because there's so many complex things happening. Yeah. I think for a parent, I've worked with a lot of kids in this age range. Yeah. It can feel really overwhelming for parents because there's a lot of friend drama. There's a lot of friend drama.

SPEAKER_02

I didn't really know this one. I I hadn't really considered this quite as much, this friendship piece. Okay. Apparently, at this age, it's so relationships become increasingly meaningful. Right. Social root friendships do for ages six to nine. Yes. So then there's a lot more friendship drama. There's a lot more friendship conflict, there's a lot more, you know, I don't like him, or so and so didn't want to play with me today. And they don't they're not my friend anymore.

SPEAKER_00

They're also super sensitive to being feeling left out or excluded.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Um, fairness is a really big one at this age range. Very concerned about things being fair. Yep. Um, so kids this age are starting to learn conflict resolution. Beginnings. Beginnings. They're starting to learn how to take other people's perspective.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, that comes towards the end of the stage, I would say.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So it's just budding. Um, they're starting to sort of like kind of get cooperative play.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Right. And this, of course, we're talking six to nine, so we're gonna get increasingly stronger in this skill.

SPEAKER_00

A six-year-old is gonna look vastly different than a nine-year-old. A nine year old.

SPEAKER_02

Definitely. That's supposed to be the case. Um, and so it is really, yeah, it's so because those skills are emerging and because friendships are so much more important, there's just a lot more big feelings around social relationships, around friendships. And so when I was, when I, you know, was researching and I thought about that, I was like, oh, that was super helpful for me. Cause I think if my daughter came home and she started having friendship problems, I would be concerned. Right. Be like, oh my gosh, like But no, they're supposed to wrestle with this. They're supposed to. This is totally normal. Right.

SPEAKER_00

So I think another big area that is come that people bring up their kids in a lot is self-esteem. Yes, negative, negative self-talk.

SPEAKER_02

I think that's another one. When I was researching, it was actually pretty helpful for me to normalize or to think about how this piece is normal, the negative self-talk. Because in my psychologist brain, if I'm hearing that.

SPEAKER_00

We're very concerned about self-esteem with psychology.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. We worry about it. We would like for people to have healthy positive self-esteem. Because it is really nice to think highly of yourself.

SPEAKER_00

It's really important.

SPEAKER_02

And it's really hard to not right.

SPEAKER_00

But this is where the seeds of this self-concept and self-belief develop. So they're supposed to.

SPEAKER_02

They're supposed to struggle with their self-esteem because they're just developing it. So it's totally normal for them. It's typical. Yeah. At this age, because of all of the learning and the mastery and achievement focus, they become really um way more focused on um comparison. Comparison. Comparison. I'm not good enough. Like I, they're better than me. I'm not, I'm not good at that. Like I'm stupid. A lot of negative actually quite common statements for this age right now.

SPEAKER_00

And it's an easy parent trap to fall into. Lindsay Lohan. What? That was okay. What? Nothing. Okay. It's a parent trap. Yeah, I I got it. It's a different one than the movie, but it's a parent trap. Oh, I'm so stupid. No, you're not.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly. That, yes. Okay. So parent trap. Parent trap. So with this social, yeah, and this sort of self esteem stuff, we we want to A recognize that it's normal. Right. And B recognize that this is actually just asking this the kid, the question underneath these statements that your kid is asking is what are they really wanting? Am I capable?

SPEAKER_00

Can I handle this?

SPEAKER_02

Can I handle this? Can I do this? So So try not to let your fear make you jump in to rescue and be like, no, no, you're so smart. What are you talking about? So and so loves you. All the things that you would want to say. Right.

SPEAKER_00

The sound like they're good things to say as a parent, and it's the parent trap.

SPEAKER_02

Because then you kind of are you're kind of not able to then use the moment as a teaching lesson.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Right. So in these moments, like what the literature really shows is most helpful is to be is to s is to sort of reflect, this is really hard. This is really hard, honey. And you're still learning. So it's gonna be really hard. And it's okay.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And you can do hard things. Yeah. How how can people respond to the she's better than me or like I'm not good at yeah, she's way better at art, or he's better at math. Or well, how can I how can that not fall into that trap? Because that's tricky for me. Putting me on the spot.

SPEAKER_02

So at this age, kids equate, you know, Jill is better than me at soccer to I am bad at soccer.

SPEAKER_00

Right. So it's a lot of black and white thinking.

SPEAKER_02

A lot of black and white thinking, right? And a lot of like not being able to understand nuance and you know, really kind of like concrete.

SPEAKER_01

Sure.

SPEAKER_02

So I would I mean, I would always suggest starting with reflecting the feeling. That's so that's that's really sad, honey. Tell me more, right? I that's how I buy time. To be honest, if my kids or patients sometimes will have like a really kind of big, you know, I sometimes I I kind of like, you know, the space helps me organize enough to be able to be like, okay, don't jump in because I want to jump in and and I want to rescue. That's my tendency to do. Sure. Um, like, but yeah, I mean, tell me more. That's really sad. You're still learning, baby. You know, you're still learning.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

You're still getting good at soccer. You can right. Like, I think reinforcing always that just bec you know, like it's yeah, you're like the reality is maybe you're maybe they're not your child's not good at soccer. Yeah, we're not gonna do it. Or maybe they're like not as good as Jill. That's okay. That's okay. You know, honey, if this is important to you and you want to do it and you want to get better, that like, hey, you can do that. You can do it. We can practice, honey, and I'll be here to help you in any way that I can.

SPEAKER_00

It's just like recognizing that like it's okay if your kids are not good at everything, and it's okay if they're struggling, and because that's not realistic, they're learning skills, and this is so huge. It it sounds sort of silly to say. Try not to lie to your kids.

unknown

Try not to lie to you.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, this is why. I cannot tell you the number of kids I've seen in my in my short mini professional career, 10 years, whatever, so far, where kids will come to my office and it's just me and the kid. And even younger children were like, Yeah, mom lied to me, or I yeah, I know dad was lying when he said this. Like, they know kids are not dumb, they are just young. But they are aware when the we are when we are trying to smooth things over to make them feel better in a way that is not accurate, you know? Like they get that, I think.

SPEAKER_02

I think they can sense it, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's you know, I to be to be fair, I do feel like most of us feel like, you know, the maybe like sun shines out of our children. Like we do like look at them and think they're like the most amazing, great, and like, you know, uh yes, it is so there's there's nothing wrong with being biased and thinking that of your children, but yes, we want to be like, we really just want to set realistic expectations and sort of you know help really like in this stage, really. It's really worse that we're just focusing on learning skills and it makes sense that you're having a hard time and we'll figure it out in life. We're just gonna practice, honey. If this is important to you, if you care about this, if you care about it, and that I think is an important distinction for me to be able to set up with my kids because I want them to feel motivated to try hard things in ways that they want to, and try hard things and know it's okay to fail.

SPEAKER_00

That's one thing I have to really work on with my kid because she's already displaying like some kind of perfectionism. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it is, I tell her, I said, you know, in this kind of situation, perfect is not real. Like this is not, there might be a perfect moment or maybe a perfect feeling. It just matters a lot to her. It matters a lot, and is but I don't want her to be blocked by trying to be aiming for perfection because that is a problem, problematic.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, definitely. I think we should probably do an episode on perfectionism at some point. I think that would be actually a pretty good idea. Yeah, it would be um coming from some who needs to work on perfectionism.

SPEAKER_00

Perfectionism. Who needs to work on that?

SPEAKER_02

Of course, we have children who are like that.

SPEAKER_00

Um it's not making us.

SPEAKER_02

It's not we try really hard, but it is impossible not to impact our kids and to have everything like figured out and for them to not be budding perfectionists. So but to a degree, yeah, at this age, that perfectionism perfectionism is a bit more typical.

SPEAKER_00

It's developmentally normal.

SPEAKER_02

Um so it may just be something she's working through.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

So at this stage, they're struggling and they're working through a lie.

SPEAKER_00

And so we just don't want alarm bells to go off and for you to feel when should alarm bells go off for parents of kids in this age across the domains we've talked about so far.

SPEAKER_02

So throughout these domains, as we discuss, you want to be thinking about is it pervasive? Okay. Meaning, is it present in multiple settings?

SPEAKER_00

Uh church, school, and home.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So if your kid was like really socially isolated and had a hard time engaging, is that happening like everywhere? Yeah. Because then it's a bit more of a concern. Yeah. If you're just seeing it at school or just seeing it at home, then there may be something going on in those settings.

SPEAKER_00

And that's saying that's eliciting that experience.

SPEAKER_02

That's eliciting the experience.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Um, is it persistent?

SPEAKER_00

So ongoing.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Um, not something that's after a big transition because kiddos go nuts after transitions. Sure. Something that's occurring for months at a time. Right. Um, that's pretty persistent, not intermittent.

SPEAKER_00

Well, yeah, that's it's more than a week.

SPEAKER_02

It's definitely more than a week. We're talking months.

SPEAKER_00

Months.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and then is it impairing? So is it actually impacting in a negative way their functioning? Is it getting in the way of them building relationships? Or learning skills or learning skill relationships? Is it getting in the way of them learning at school?

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Right. So when we talk about attention, this is a big age.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Now, you know, by the time we get to like eight, nine, it's getting a little bit better. And if compared to everyone else in their class, they're really having a hard time focusing, they can't learn. Yes. Well, okay, then that's that's different. That's different. So that's when we are concerned. Right. Um, and then within each domain, when you do teach skills, if they're not able to progress, then it starts to become like, okay, maybe there's something else going on here and we need to like evaluate or check it out. Okay. Um so in just to close the loop on the relationship piece, on the social functioning, we had talked about, we were talking about how parents can help. And I wanted to emphasize in this section too, um, to really like think about coaching social skills. I think this is hard, this is something that I have to do more intentionally. It's harder for me to just naturally remember. But if a kiddo is coming to you with a relationship problem like that friendship drama, right, similar to when they're struggling with self-esteem, try not to get in there and rescue and give advice as much as listen validate and put it back on them. Like, what do you think you're gonna do about that?

SPEAKER_00

Right?

SPEAKER_02

We want to start putting it back on them to develop. Yeah, what what what could you do about it?

SPEAKER_00

What are your options?

SPEAKER_02

Or, you know, with the self-esteem stuff, right? If they say I'm bad at this, is there another possibility?

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Like encouraging them to think about their friendship drama and how they may want to handle it. And of course, again, we're talking about scaffolding this up. So a six-year-old's not gonna do this as well as a nine-year-old.

SPEAKER_00

Nine-year-olds are much better at that.

SPEAKER_02

But you can start giving them suggestions. Well, maybe you can ask them to play again tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00

Or maybe you can say, I don't like when you talk to me that way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, or maybe you can say, Stop, please, I don't like that.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

So you're sort of giving them options and coaching them, and this is the case, you know, for all of them. That makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I think the big thing that I keep coming back to is at the end of each of these coaching elements or scaffolding, one thing I try to do, um, even with my five-year-old, is say, Well, you know, I I trust your judgment. I know you can handle what's happening. And I don't leave her without any suggestions or feedback.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, she probably needs some options or suggestions and feedback still, but wanting to communicate that you got this.

SPEAKER_00

But towards the end of this this kind of scaffolding experience when I'm kind of helping her work through a problem or a situation after there's validation and support, I say, Well, you know, I trust your judgment. I know you can handle this. That is to me, during this stage, the biggest gift.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, because we really want to praise and like lend our confidence in areas like judgment, right, strategy, uh effort.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Right. So we want to really praise those qualities to really like boost that self-esteem. So less like, you know, wow, you're so smart, and more like, wow, you really care about that. Right. That's important to you. You did not give up even when that was hard, or I trust your judgment. I know you can figure this out.

SPEAKER_00

And but because I think it covers so many domains, whether it's schoolwork, friendships, confidence, all the things. I believe in your capacity to handle whatever happens to you.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and it's it's it's directly tying back to that question am I capable? Am I capable? And the answer is. Can I be successful? So we want to really focus on the qualities that really do promote success, which is persistence, yeah, frustration tolerance, like real figuring out a way problem solving problem solving. Exactly. Um, you know, judgment, trusting one's instinct and judgment and feelings.

SPEAKER_00

And then if it goes south or doesn't work, or there's failure, which is also called learning, being able to go from there and and do the next step. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

So, you know, I I think um that's all very it's all true. And I think it like is very I I I find this a little more challenging because of my own um nervousness or anxiety around um failure. Right. And so I have to watch, you know, I have to really like watch myself.

SPEAKER_00

You and I are yin-gang yang on this. I had a very intentional female parent growing up that from a very young age, kind of aggressively, maybe a dad aggressively told me that I was very capable and I could handle whatever happened to me. Yeah. So much so that on my tombstone, not only will my name be there, but also the word determined.

SPEAKER_02

That's the thing about this stuff, guys, is like what you say to your kid matters, and it gets internalized. And this is her internal working model of her competence.

SPEAKER_00

I feel yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Whereas mine is very hard-earned. I have to have hard-earned things. I have to tell myself this is those things do not come as naturally to me. Right. So I have a lot of anxiety about failure, um, which I'm trying really hard not to pass on to my kid by over-rescuing, right? Or like thinking everything is a problem, which is why I wanted to do these episodes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, my I still think I have anxiety around new, like new things that are challenging, but I think there's still this persistent belief that you can do it and you're capable of it. But even if I fail, I'm gonna handle the failure.

SPEAKER_02

And that, my friends, is industry. She is an industry. I'm still working, I'm still working on industry. Well, I am, yes, but I don't always have that sort of internal stable sense of like I can do it.

SPEAKER_00

Sure.

SPEAKER_02

And like I can handle failure. And know that that piece.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Um, so before we're done, let's touch on emotion regulation because I feel like this is a big one that we kind of just do need to cover for a few minutes. Sure. Um, and then we'll wrap up because I know we're getting long on or short on time. Um, emotion regulation is another real big one here.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Kidddos at this age range, they um still need a lot of help from parents, but they can participate more in their own emotion regulation. So kids still depend on co-regulation, meaning you breathe, you stay calm, you stay confident. They borrow the calmness, that calmness and confidence. Okay. So they still need it. They still need your empathy and validation and support. Right. But because they have more language skills, they can reason through things a little better. They can logic through things a little bit better. They can they're also more socially and emotionally aware. Yes. So they can talk and they can start to practice skills on their own.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. Whereas like three to five, like they literally needed your body to be able to calm down. They cannot really very well do skills in the moment. Six to nine-year-olds can now kind of practice deep breathing on their own. Yes. Right? They may practice being able to sort of like calm themselves down with your help and coaching.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So and they also are very aware at this stage, more than other, more than the earlier stage, how you're coping, like the parent, the adult around them, how they're coping with their own emotions.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So you do see a lot of a lot more mimicking here. So if you are mad and yelling, they'll be mad and yelling. They're going to be mad and yelling.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Because that is how they learn. Right. They're starting to learn emotion regulation skills. So we want to continue practicing what we were for ages three to five.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But now we're kind of like making them a little bit more of an active agent in their own. Just a little more bonus on them. Yeah. So, like, oh, you're so, you know, once, once you lend your co-regulation and your empathy and validation and whatever. How would you like to calm down? What can you do? Yeah, what can you do? Or if, you know, after they've come out of it, hey, what can you, what do you think you could do next time if you're feeling really mad? And they can just participate more in that kind of stuff and really take it in and learn. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So what are you taking away today from our conversation around this period about which we're about to enter?

SPEAKER_02

We're about to enter. I'm feeling more confident.

SPEAKER_00

Good.

SPEAKER_02

So that's not a good idea. I love that. I do really, it was helpful for me to learn that a lot of this stuff and these statements are normative. Because I think definitely my anxious brain would have, if my daughter were saying these things, been like, you know, all the things like I'm a terrible mom and my daughter's not okay, because those are my deepest fears. But this is helpful.

SPEAKER_00

It's helpful and I'm just taking away how critical it is to express belief in our kids. Yeah. And I don't think I I always knew that like overarching through childhood, but specifically during this developmental phase, I think it is so crucial to let them uh struggle appropriately and not rescue and then express belief in their capacity to handle whatever happens to them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, with appropriate, I think, coaching and scaffolding and expectations. Yeah. Yeah. They can handle it. They can maybe get through it successfully and be an industry. Oh, also though, one last thing, okay. You can always successfully get through these developmental phases. So I wanted to like lend some hope. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you are recognizing potentially that your kid, you know, is maybe outside this age range and is is is in inferiority or struggling with some of these things. Okay, it is absolutely possible to catch up. To catch up. Right. So you can always start by if you can think in your brain as a parent, oh, my kid is still actually in this phase. They didn't successfully get through it. Focus on the skills we're talking about now in this episode and use them. For your older kid, your 10, 11, 12. These are they're just sort of like they still apply. They still get older. They still as you get older, but also if you're kind of like in a stunted in a developmental phase, and that's kind of what happens if we don't get through it successfully. We kind of need to get just caught up. Caught up. Yeah. Exactly. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Let us know in the comments what you think about this exciting developmental phase that we're about to enter into and pray for us. This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or any kind of professional mental health treatment. We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely, and we hope that occasionally will make you laugh. Maybe you can relate to our quest and our psyched for sanity. The content we share is our personal opinions and insights. They are not clinical insights to anyone, and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we worked in or have worked for in the past. But if listening to this podcast has made you think, we really encourage you to speak out a mental health professional in your area.