Episode 35 - Perfectionism: When Good Isn’t Good Enough

https://youtu.be/t7cWB_tsC4I

In this episode of Psyched for Sanity, Dr. Parker and Dr. Doss explore perfectionism and the pressure to get everything just right. They discuss where perfectionism comes from, how it can affect our relationships, work, and mental health, and when striving for excellence can become unhealthy.

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***Listener Discretion Advised:
This episode contains discussions about mental health topics and real-life experiences that may not be suitable for all audiences. While the conversation includes humor and personal stories, some content may be sensitive or triggering. Listener discretion is advised.***


#PsychedForSanity #Perfectionism #MentalHealth #Psychology #MentalHealthPodcast #TherapyTalk

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello, and welcome to Psych for Sanity. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Brendel Doss. I'm a licensed psychologist specializing in forensic psychology, geriatric psychology, trauma treatment, and assessment.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

And I'm Dr. Tara McKelvey Parker. I'm also a licensed clinical psychologist. I specialize in assessing and treating complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood. And I am a recovering perfectionist. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

There's a pause there. I'm like, I know a lot about you, but maybe I'm about to learn something new. Recovering perfectionist. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Yeah, we decided to do an episode on perfectionism. Yes. And so it had me thinking a lot about my history, my, you know, background. When I was in school, particularly like middle high school, I was very stereotypically perfectionistic. So like straight A's, like spent hours upon hours working on my assignments. Um, I mean, I would like literally go to the library all weekend and just like do homework. Wow. Um, you know, and like all the organizations. I did all the things. Um, I remember like in my yearbook one year, I think this was like seventh or eighth grade, everyone wrote You Are So Smart. Like literally everyone wrote, You are so smart. Oh. You are so smart. Putting more fuel on the fire. Or you are so pretty. You know, it was like I've nice things very hard to with my appearance. It was very like classically perfectionistic. But when I got out of high school and went to college, I chilled out a little bit and I'm like, I'm not perfectionistic. And then I realized really over the past couple years, and especially writing it all down on paper that I am still very much a perfectionist. Um, even though I do think I've made a lot of progress on it over the years, but I can definitely identify with a lot of the material that we're gonna cover. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Um, on this episode. Well, and I think when you mentioned it, I was kind of like perfectionism. That's you know, not that it's not a thing. I guess I don't identify as a perfectionist. Uh I you're laughing. I think there are elements that I can be really hard on myself about. Maybe certain areas. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But a lot of the things for me don't connect on a personal level. And I think it's been a helpful. You had some some self-awareness when you're doing your podcast prep. When I when we were prepping for this episode on my end, I was like, oh, I need to learn more about this to be more helpful to my patients that may struggle with this. And so this research was super informative for that process too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

So perfectionism. Right. What is it? What is perfectionism? It's not just high standards, although perfectionists do have high standards. Yes, they do. Um, but really at its core is a person feels like they must gain worth or safety or belonging by doing well enough or meeting these high standards. Yes. So it's not just high standards, it's like, you know, my sense of safety and what I what I am worth and and and if I belong really depends on doing well at these certain things. Performance equals value. Yeah, it can be one of one of the things performance equals value. I'm worth something when I perform at this particular level. And that certainly was what drove, I think, all of my perfectionism around achievement in school. And you know, I got a PhD, and there's certainly some perfectionistic strivings, I think, underneath underneath my achievement. Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Didn't you like also like run a marathon while you're getting a PhD?

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah, I did a marathon. I did, yeah, yes, yes, I did marathon it in musical. I did all kinds of things. I just like to do things. Um, and so there's some perfectionism, I think, under there. Under there? Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I'm saying it's like right there. It's not under it. It seems like it's like more front and center. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

So a lot of times then, you know, at it's at the core, there's usually quite a bit of insecurity.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

And fear. That's what's faster to learn about. Yes, that's driving the perfectionistic behaviors. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

So Yeah, so fear in this realm is like this is but perfectionism would protect against the fear. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yeah, there's um, yes, so it it's like um something bad is gonna happen to me if I do not perform this task at this uber high level. Right. So, like if I don't if I do not get a straight A or if I do not do X, Y, and Z, someone is going to make fun of me. Right? Someone is not going to like me. There's all these fears, and if you trace it down even deeper, underneath that is I am not good enough. Right. Like, I'm not acceptable the way that I am. I must earn these grades or look this particular way or do these particular things in this really high, you know, sort of like rigid way. Yeah. So that I can feel safe, so I can feel good enough, so I can belong. Right. And so that's really hard because then the goal posts constantly moves. Yes. And when you're a perfectionist, nothing is ever good enough and nothing is ever finished. Yes, it's exhausting. It's exhausting. It can be absolutely exhausting. So I think, you know, while I'm not in school anymore striving for straight A's, I still very much recognize that when I don't feel good about the way I, you know, like a session with a patient, um, you know, I might tend to beat myself up, right? Or like really there's that insecurity that pops up or that fear about, oh, like, you know, they're not gonna want to keep coming. And then my, you know, stress around money and and other kinds of things about being a good enough therapist start coming up. So, and that way, you know, I think I'm I still very much identify with the perfectionism.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

The part I could connect with is the there have been moments in my life that I have not felt good enough. I think that um, so there might be just unconnected pieces in myself that I experience. I'm also we've talked about my values in the past, and I place a lot of value on achievement.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

So I definitely think that I think to a degree I think it can become problematic where you have real struggles with perfectionism, but I think all of us might have elements well, and you're bringing up a good point because I do think that there is a difference between excellence and perfectionism. Okay. So, you know, I do think I also really value achievement. Yes. And I want to be good at what I do. Sure. Like it matters to me to do a good job. Yeah. And so there's nothing wrong with having high standards for yourself. And so this is not a video about low just lower your standards. No, or just accept what you don't find comfortable necessarily. Right. So we it's not about that. I mean, excellent, but when someone who's just striving for excellence, normally, um, you know, they know and to be done. Okay. Okay, they have high standards, but they're not like endlessly revising and they're not beating themselves up for mistakes. Typically, people who are growth-oriented, you know, strive for excellence, they're growth-oriented, they learn from mistakes. They know mistakes are part of the process. Yes. And they strive to just do better and to learn. Right. There's a lot more flexibility. They can stop, they can shift tasks. Perfectionists are they're fear and insecurity driven. Okay. They constantly raise the bar.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Right. Again, it's never good enough, it's never finished. Um, and so it it it's different, right? Like, so you can, I do think for a lot of us, we have that striving toward excellence, and then it becomes perfectionistic when we tie our worth, uh-huh, our belonging, our sense of safety to the standard. Right. And to completing in, you know, a task at that level. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Is what I think about. What do you think um perfectionism protects us from?

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Um, you know, I think definitely those emotional experiences that are experiences that are really hard. Because if you, you know, like me, when I was in high school, can make straight A's and can like, you know, do all of the activities and I, you know, have privilege in that kind of way, like being able I was born with some some skills and some some intelligence. And so I did really great in school. And so I didn't have to feel my insecurity. Ah, okay. Right. When we are able to, you know, when when we can achieve, right, we can feel good about ourselves. Our worth is dependent on our level of achievement. So it kind of keeps us from having to feel terrible about ourselves and and scared, anxious. Fear. Fear, exactly. So I would say fear and insecurity. Um, and then I think sometimes perfectionism too stems from I this was certainly the case for me. Um, like my my home environment was incredibly chaotic and unpredictable. Right. And so I think if I could do everything right, then I felt safe. And that certainly is still the case for me today. I feel um, I still feel that way with tasks. If I can just, it's this sort of like relief when I can finish a task, and it feels like if I can just, you know, do it right and enough. I find myself getting into perfectionistic territory with like my you know interior decorating, for instance. Okay. Something I love to do. Right. It's something I want to do really well, and I really enjoy it, but I I can start to tip into like it's never done. It's never done. And it's like even my you know, AI helper will sometimes call me out on that because I use it, I I use it like you know, for um sometimes my like interior decorating and design and stuff for ideas, and it's like you're feeling perfectionistic, you should just be done. And I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

When AI starts to call it out, I know it's a problem.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

It's like I've noticed that you blah blah blah. You should just leave it for now. And I'm like, Wow.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Okay, okay, okay. Um, okay, so your AI is clearly trying to support you in your journey towards mental health. It is. Which is great. It's a great, you're terrified. It's great for a little bit. A little nervous. I have some anxiety right now. This is new information for me. Um we kind of briefly talked about how perfectionism presents.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah, like what does it look like? Yeah. What does it look like? Yeah. I mean, so there's the classic. I think most of us think about the uh the overachieving, right? The overachieving, the super everything is spotless, everything is just right. We've got, you know, the straight A's, uh, you know, uber work performance, you know, wonderful reviews. That is like classic perfectionism. But, and I I explain this to parents all the time in therapy because they are like very confused by their their child, for instance, who who seems to deeply care about school, but who cannot muster the motivation to do the tasks. And so the flip side actually is like paralysis. Lots of people who are perfectionistic because they have those high standards that are tied to their worth and their safety and their belonging, they freeze. And they do nothing. They do nothing. Yes, they're super distracted, they're unmotivated, they're indecisive, they're afraid of failure, so they do not attempt. These kiddos people would rather appear lazy than stupid. Or then risk appearing to fail. Right, which I think ties to them feeling stupid or inferior, or right, because perfectionism is tied to that insecurity. So it is a another way to not have to feel the insecurity. But it's baffling to people because it's like, what? They're not perfectionistic, they're not really trying. But it's the same underlying beliefs, the same underlying feelings that fuel that that behavior pattern. So it can look either way, actually, and be fueled by perfectionism.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

And I think that's so fascinating, and I think you're right. I think parents and generally people don't have this conceptualization or this viewpoint of perfectionism. So I think this is going to be really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yes. I also find it super helpful to think about perfectionism in particular um diagnoses. Um, because these diagnoses can be fueled like psychologically, right? Fueled by these core beliefs and these emotions. So OCD, for instance, certainly has a perfectionistic component. Absolutely. Right. There is moral OCD, relationship OCD, just right OCD, and and and and people who are suffering in this way really, you know, need it to be a particular way. Relationship needs to be okay all of the time. There's incredibly high standards around morals, yeah. Um, and it becomes obsessive. Right. And really, there's still that core shame and fear. Right. I think around, you know, belonging and uh competence and uh all of that, all that stuff, you know. So, you know, same thing with I think eating disorders, even depressive disorders, anxiety disorders. There's a bunch of shame. There's a bunch of fear, um, and a bunch of just ways that we try to manage those emotions to to shield ourselves or protect ourselves from feeling the brunt or the intensity of them. So we develop all of these patterns of behavior to protect ourselves. To protect ourselves, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

But the patterns of behavior uh are problematic. Yeah, there's costs. Oh no. There's costs to maladaptive behavior, Dr. Parko. Oh no. What are the costs for some perfectionistic folks?

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Well, I mean, when I I can I can remember like in pr in high school, you know, just and and you know, that period of time you're talking about in grad school where I think I was just like really, really, really, you know, perfection perfectionistically achieving. I was exhausted. It's really exhausting to hear about everything you did in graduate school. You should have known me in high school. I think if my family members are watching, they're gonna be laughing that I thought I wasn't really a perfectionist anymore. They're gonna be like, ah, that's that's sweet.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Well, this is as a southern thing, bless your heart.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Bless your little heart. Right. Um, I was exhausted. And it, you know, like for me, it's it it really, I think, even though it's so so ironic, but this is the cost of maladaptive coping, you know, skills is I was trying not to feel anxious or out of control. Yes, right, but being that busy is very anxiety-provoking. Exhausting, it's very exhausting. So in the long term, I think perfectionism creates more anxiety, uh, more burnout, more stress.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

You know, the thing that I was struck by in the research for this was the relational cost. Oh, yeah. That folks that are perfection perfectionistic on some level, whether it's relational, moral, there's lots of different yeah, domains in which perfectionism can pop up.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Relationships is one. Well, in that thing, it in when you're perfectionist relationships, there's the one of the costs might be that you feel you have difficulty with vulnerability and it's you feel like inauthentic in relationships.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Yes, because when you have perfectionism around relationships, you think they should always be going right. They should always be okay. Conflict, mistakes, no bueno. People who are perfectionists don't do mistakes. No bueno, they don't do it, they don't want it. Right, you know, so it's no good. Right. So then if you are not okay with making mistakes, right, right, you you you're not you're you're not, you know, a lot of us feel like being vulnerable is messy. It's uncomfortable. Messy and uncomfortable. We don't show that to someone else, you know. That would be considered a weakness or a mistake for many of us who are perfectionistic, so we don't we don't put ourselves out there, right? You know, so then things are more superficial. Um and that obviously limits the amount of connectivity I think you can have a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

If you're not sure if myself, when I have had relationships where I feel like I am am being authentic and vulnerable, which is I feel like I have the opposite problem. I can only be authentic and vulnerable. Except to tell me that you were excited about the podcast. Oh, yeah, I was I was I was shy about that. You were shy about that. We're shy about that. Bashful. Um but I think when I'm in a relationship with someone, a friend, and I feel like I'm being authentic and vulnerable, and I don't receive that, I don't want to continue in that manner with that person necessarily.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Yeah, it's not emotionally safe.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

It doesn't feel safe to be vulnerable, someone who's not also being vulnerable. Yes, yeah, exactly. And I've had that experience over with friendships over the course of years where and I, you know, I have personally just a lot of challenge with friendships. I think I was raised in a really kind of closed environment, and so there was not a lot of options for friends. Okay. And so friendships were harder for me to find lasting good connective friendships. And when I did, I really poured my heart into some of those folks, and then that was also problematic. That's what I know what I mean. Yeah. So then over the years, as I've as I've you know gotten better at this experience relationally, I don't want to be with someone that can't, it's not gonna be close to me.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

In that inner circle. In that way.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

And that makes that makes sense. So we're talking about different areas of perfectionism. You can certainly be perfectionistic in an area or two, or you could be perfectionistic in all the areas. So relationships, we've got the moral. One thing, one that that was, you know, kind of popped up as we were thinking about this episode was health. This was interesting because I identified this on my own in my uh over the past couple of years on my mental health journey because I was like obsessively reading doing all the wellness things and listening to podcasts and doing all the wellness things and trying to heal in the perfect way. And it was kind of crazy, but I was like super anxious and feeling really insecure and going through one of the hardest, you know, periods of my life. So I was like, let me fall back on this, you know, perfectionism thing, this obsessive, you know, kind of dissociative, whatever. Um, and then I realized, wait a second, wait a second. Wait a second, wait a second. What I'm telling myself here is that I need to heal to be okay, right? And that's actually BS. So I backed way, way, way, way, way, way off because I'm like, you know what? Like, I actually think I'm maybe telling myself something that's not so great that I'm not just okay as I am. And so I've been trying to be less crazy and a bit more balanced with it and less perfectionistic because I certainly was doing that in a pretty perfectionistic way.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

I think that's a yeah, you're right. I think until I we had this research kind of in front of us, it wasn't as clear to me about this area of perfectionism. And I had on to be honest, like transparency, transparently, I had like a very narrow view of this topic, and now I'm realizing much more about just the different domains of it and the different way it presents and how while it's not its own diagnosis or disorder, it relates to so many different areas.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

I think it relates to yeah, I mean you can certainly have you can certainly be perfectionistic without having a diagnosis. Wanna make that very clear. But I do think when we talk about perfectionism as being just a way to manage fear and shame or avoid it or you know, feel like we belong or we're safe, um you know, that it could be it can get challenging. Absolutely. So, and you know, we didn't talk about two, maybe we should we should talk briefly about where it comes from. Um, I think we've covered some, like right when you have when when you are raised in an environment or you know, maybe just been in an environment where achievement is praised. Yes, or really focused on, or you know, or really, really focused on or yeah, focused on, or maybe um it's it's a higher degree of what people are focused on or praising versus other things about yourself. Sure. Right? Like achievement, performance, then certainly we can develop perfectionism. Um I think when you feel like love or attention or affection is conditional, we kind of develop a fear of rejection. Yes, if I don't this, then that kind of thing. Yeah, like if I am not acting in a particular way or feeling in a particular way or behaving in a particular way to my parents or to my partner or whatever, right, then that means that I'm gonna be rejected and not liked. So then we sort of develop patterns that are um unhelpful. Or um again, the need for control, I think is another one. Like when you I think lots of us um grow up being more perfectionistic if things were more chaotic, potentially as sort of a need, you know, for control. So that's another piece I think about.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

I think there also might be tendencies within personalities towards perfectionism.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Yeah, temperament wise, that's important. So we are talking about the psychological underpinnings of perfectionism, but yeah, there's but there's also temperaments that you're born with that I think naturally predispose people toward more insecurity. or caution. Like I think about really sensitive kiddos who um, you know, they do feel deeply and they do f tend, you know, their emotions do tend to be bigger and overwhelming. And so there's cer definitely certain temperaments I think trace on yeah to perfectionism.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

I think my daughter has some tendencies towards elements of perfectionism. And so one thing since I've noticed it and she's young, I really try to make sure that we reinforce effort and not an outcome.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah so this is one of those things that can really help. Right. Yeah definitely reinforce like validate praise effort strategy persistence instead of achievement. Separate your uh you know help your kid and for you separate your worth from achievement.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Separate that and also just really um focusing on like it's okay to make mistakes it's okay to be messy. It's okay to learn so you don't have to know everything. And practice just being good enough.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Practice in the email finish the task learn to live with that discomfort. Yes learn to live with that discomfort and the more that you do the easier it'll get but ask yourself what am I scared is going to happen if I do not achieve at this level. Great question. And what story am I telling myself about what it's going to mean about me.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

What does this mean about me? Uh-huh exactly um so these are some of the things that help um when you start thinking you know if you identify as being perfectionistic start really identifying that fear and that shame sure and challenging and practicing you know good enough uh self-compassion of course right with mistakes like you were saying so hard also I think we also always want to emphasize that um these are general psychoeducational things but if you feel like this is really a problem for you we really encourage you to talk to a mental health professional um get some resources if you feel like just your own work individually is not enough because perfectionism is really tricky and sometimes we're so used to our inner narrator it can be hard to kind of call ourselves out in this process. Yeah for sure definitely want to normalize seeking support um for things that are hard and difficult.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

If you have any questions about perfectionism I know all the things because that doesn't sound perfectionistic at all. Jeez I'm just saying I am one so I get it I know okay that's a little different. That's what I meant. That's not what you said that's what I meant what are you taking away from this episode that that's what I meant all right well I'm taking this episode just my I'm you know the first thing that popped into my mind was just my trajectory and my progress and it was it was really interesting and to to think about my journey with perfectionism and how it sort of has morphed and how it's still kind of in there and how I do think I've gotten a lot better with it and I can identify right you know all these things. And I just think it takes you know to encourage our audience and our listeners that it just takes some it just takes some time and some intentionality I think at at identifying the patterns and the thought processes and all the things all the things.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

I'm taking away just an expanded view and appreciation for this um symptom adjacent experience. Symptom adjacent yeah I would say it's and I think um it's definitely helped expand my view which I always appreciate a I love a bit of knowledge and so this has been super helpful. The research of this has just been really really helpful. So thanks you're welcome I like to learn we know we know this podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy diagnosis or any kind of professional mental health treatment. We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely and we hope that occasionally we'll make you laugh. Maybe you can relate to our quest and how we're psyched for sanity. The content we share is um our personal opinions and insights they are not clinical insights to anyone and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we work in or have worked for in the past. But if listening to this podcast is to make you think we'd really encourage you to speak out a mental health professional in your area