Episode 25: Till Sickness Do Us Part? The Raw Truth About Love And Chronic Illness

This episode was inspired by an insight that cropped up during our weekly date night.
During long, loving relationships – whether they be family, friends or romantic partners, there will be times when the people you love will need support.

What is the correct balance for that support between allowing the other person autonomy to ask for help, looking after yourself and looking after the person you love? The emotions involved can be intense.

We discuss:

•  Richard’s near brush with disability
•  Sara’s realisation of the guilt she carried around for decades about not being there enough for loved ones and how it reinforced the feeling of “I’m a bad person”
•  It’s not about fixing, it’s about being there
•  Resentment vs. guilt. How do you deal with that?
•  Intuitively making the right choice and dealing with your emotions.

We want to hear your thoughts and questions, so if there's anything you would like us to cover on the show, please drop us a line on 

info@thebone-zone.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the Bone Zone. I'm Sarah.

SPEAKER_02 0:05

And I'm Richard.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

And in this podcast, we excavate sex and relationship myths and uncover the truth of how it all really works. We bridge the esoteric and practical worlds to bring you grounded, sage, and tangible advice and tools, whether you're looking to attract a soulmate relationship or grow and expand within an existing one.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Good everything. Good morning, good evening, good night, good afternoon.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

You could just say hi.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Oh, hello everyone. I didn't think of that. Um, welcome back to the show. This one, uh the inspiration for this one is a conversation that we had on date night on Saturday night. Most people think a date night should be well, having sex after a big meal, I really don't think so. But at least having sex before and then going out for a nice romantic dinner where you look into each other's eyes, yada yada yada. But not our date nights.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Well, some of our date nights.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Some of the date nights are like that, but some um some we have arguments. Some we have arguments.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

And some throw up interesting insights.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

And this last one threw up a very interesting insight uh for Sarah, particularly. So I'm gonna let you get on with it. Well, you would get on with it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

No, actually, I wasn't even gonna talk.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Well, you want me to talk?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

I wonder how many seconds I can get talking.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

I want you to talk so I can interrupt. No, kidding.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Fucking whole woman.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Joking, not joking. Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

So seriously, do you want to start or are you No no, I mean I'll I'll tell the story. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Um well actually, given that the story relates to you a few years ago and your back issues, why don't you set the scene with talking about that? And then we'll say how that links into insights.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Alright, so from quite early on, I understood that Sarah had this um adversity to some people from the outside may may call it she she's incapable of looking after people or something like that. She runs away from situations, but I understood it especially from the story that she told me about her how her grandfather died and the guilt that she had around that of kind of beating herself up for not doing enough or not being there enough, not showing uh enough support. I understood this early on in our relationship when I well, first of all, mum died, and um although she was there for me, I still sensed that almost like um a bit nervous or not knowing how to really look after someone going through something as losing a parent from cancer, but not fish out of water, but inexperienced, let's say. And further along to my back issue, I was basically bedridden for three weeks.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

I you might want to explain your back issue.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Well, basically I had a you had a back issue. Uh just literally it was a millimeter away from rupturing my disc in the lower part of my back, and um and people were talking about spinal fusions, which really is a fucking nightmare. You just don't get to do the things that you want to do anymore.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

It was very serious, it was a very serious problem. Could have ended up disabled, like call it very bluntly.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Because I know two people who have had this procedure done and they're they're in really not good shape. So, and in these three weeks, Sarah kind of was missing in all of the physically missing, she had to go to the UK clients, it was a a a kind of extended visit in the UK, and I thought to myself during this time, and this was a life-changing time for me, I gave up all weed, which I'd been smoking for I don't know how many decades. I did made a few decisions in my life, um, and on all of this and during all of this time Sarah wasn't actually there, but I didn't get upset that oh why she's not showing me support and not cooking for me like we're supposed to do when we're when couples are together, when one of them is ill, the other one looks after the other you know, even me when Sarah's ill on day three I start getting a bit impatient, saying, Well, you know, come on, are you bet aren't you better yet?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

I sort of lay on the sort of lovely looking after bit for the first two, three days, and then the fourth day I'm saying two days you're like, Don't worry, babe, I'll look after you, and then like when I'm still like throwing up constantly on the third day, like, what's going on?

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Yeah, well, listen, looking after someone is not is not an easy person. We have a friend who whose father is not well and is in the last stages of his life, and she's been looking after him for a long time. Um, you know, also being a nurse. It's one of those amazing, she really's amazing. You know who you are because you listen to this podcast. You are fucking amazing, my love. You really are. Anyway, um, this can breed feelings of resentment. I saw this with for myself having to look after my mum and my auntie having to look after every single her husband, her mum, and her father, who she was there on their last breath after having looked after them, you know, cleaning their asses, let's get, you know, and all of that, and it does breed feelings of resentment. Now we are married, we are a couple, and we were talking about a minute though.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

I let's let's also look at the other side of this. Yes, being there for someone usually does bring up feelings of resentment because you put start to put yourself last.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Yes, you do, you put yourself last.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

And the other side of that is you know that if you weren't there, you would feel such guilt that it would eat you up.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Yes. So you're kind of between a rock and a hard place. Yeah. So when when I had my back issue, I actually, to be honest, I was pretty thankful that she wasn't there physically because it's something I needed to do by myself. And I had my business partner who was managing my work in the kitchen in the retreats that we were running, and our chef there would cook a meal and she would just literally bring it over, and that was it. However, I imagined what it would have been like had Sarah been there with me for those three weeks. I think she it would have driven her mad. I don't know, it would have really kind of flawed you a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Well, it's hard to say in retrospect, but uh just because you were not used to doing this and because of your grandpa, and then you've been feeling um feelings of guilt of never having you not not being there for him enough. I think it's helpful to put things in context. So I have been in the position of watching people I love very much die um of cancer, actually multiple times now. And um in the context of my grandfather, that was the first instance of it, but he was sick for the last I think ten years of his life, really. He became nil by mouth, so he couldn't even eat. And this was a man that loved food. I mean, you'd go around there for for like or I'd just go around there for lunch, it would just be the two of us, and he'd like he was like, I've cooked like eight chickens and like eight chickens, and like I don't know, all of this stuff. Do you think that's enough? And I'm like, no, why didn't you cook a whole cow as well? Anyway, so last 10 years of his life, uh, by then my grandma had died when I was quite young, so he was by himself. Um my parents and I lived up the road. During this time, I also went off to university, I was abroad for a couple of years. I physically wasn't there for some of that time. But even when I did go round, I had this sense of helplessness that I couldn't do anything, I couldn't do anything to make it better. And it's it was heartbreaking for me to watch someone I love just quietly deteriorating, deteriorating, deteriorating. Um and I think that's the kind of key for me when I know that I can't fix something and there's nothing I can do to make it better, and it is just the way it is, and it's sadly meant to be that way for whatever reason. I find it very hard to physically be present there. Which I understand now is also to do with absorbing other people's emotions and absorbing other people's pain. I didn't know that necessarily at the time.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

But yes, you do do that.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Um I can't remember exactly what I was doing in the UK for these three weeks that Richard's talking about, but I do know that it would have been incredibly difficult for me to be there because at that point we didn't know what would happen. We didn't know that that would work. This was back in 2022, I think it was. We didn't know that this would work. We didn't know that you'd ever be able to function or walk normally again.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Um let alone have sex.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Yeah, I mean like literally you did not move, did not move for three weeks. And um I realised on Saturday, and I can't really remember how this came up, but Richard in all the time that we've been together since 2022 had never really brought this up that I'd gone away for three weeks, but then suddenly decided to bring it up on Saturday at exactly the right time because this stuff always does come up at exactly the right time.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

You brought it up not from a place of anger, but from a place of observation of you have-just sorry, I think what we started to do is you started to talk about feelings of guilt not being there for friends and people that you love, or you mentioned something was that did you mention that first?

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Oh wait, yes, okay. No, I do remember the origin now. So we had been watching this Netflix series about um an uh woman who is being abused by her husband, and then basically she ends up uh being put in a mental institution. Anyway, so this woman has a very, very solid core friend that's there with her to the end, and the husband gets his just desserts and everyone lives happily ever after.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

But it was this called Angela, by the way, it's very good.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

It was this concept of having that very, very solid rock of a friend there to support you through this, and sometimes I feel deficient in the way that I am there to support people. Now I can logical away and say, well, I'm always there to check in, I'm always there to say, you know, if you need me, I'm there. But the reality is that I'm not physically present a lot of the time, like literally being in a different country as well, which is it's different being physically present versus talking on the phone or whatever. So, anyway, we were talking about this, and that's when Richard brought up this three weeks, and I can't remember what reasons I was in the UK for three weeks for, but it was no accident that I happened. Let's face it, let's just be honest here. It was no accident that I happened to pick those three weeks consciously or subconsciously, and it led to this realization that I've been carrying around guilt, I think for for decades now, probably, of the story looks like when people I love really need me, I'm not there, or I'm not there enough. And you translate that down to the root, I'm not enough. Like what I do is not enough. And that also links into the fixing vibe because if I can't help someone to fix what they're going through, help someone to fix, or you fixing them? No, either or either or um, then I find it I used to find it more difficult because I was absorbing all of this as well, all of these feelings from other people. I've got much better at separating myself from that so that I can be present with a person, just listen without offering advice, without telling them what to do, without trying to fix. But it has been something that has been very difficult for me to do in the past, and I almost translated that to I'm a bad person because You kind of did.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Yeah, you were you were very harsh on yourself.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah, like I the translation of all of this was I'm not good enough, but actually stronger than that, I'm a bad person because I wasn't there physically with a lot of people when they were going through very, very difficult.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

The question is, would you have been there more physically had you been residing in the same country as well?

SPEAKER_00 15:50

I did, I did. Like I've never been in a position of actually caring for someone with cancer, but then when my grandpa was going through it, I was young. I've also never had really a role model that's been nurturing towards me. My mother I would not describe as nurturing, certainly when I was growing up. It's almost like she doesn't get it sometimes why you would be physically there to help other people. Yeah um so like yes, I have been physically there, could I have been there more? Sure. But even when I was physically there, it's almost like I felt like a spare part because it wasn't it wasn't helpful in any way. Well, that's what I felt.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Unfortunately, most people, my experiences and my observations, being there for someone is to sit there and go, poor you, and turn that person into a victim, which doesn't actually do them a lot of favours.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

I was never someone that you could do that.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

You provided always something that and sometimes you even come across as brusque or a bit sharp because you have the feeling that people aren't listening, but your advice is actually fucking on point and actually spot on. You have a a very, very good uh intuition for things, but it's no, it's a it's a running joke that um people say to me, Oh, you know you were right about that.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

I was like, Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

You're right, but you see, it it's about this interaction with people, you know. How do you if you if you're not asked, well, you find a different way of saying the same thing for the other thing?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

If you're not asked, just shut the fuck up. Yes, period. Like someone, if your friend just wants you to fucking listen, that's what you do. You don't leap in there and try and fix them when A, they don't need fixing anyway, because you know they're going through their own process, and B, they didn't fucking ask you, so stick your beak out.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

The way I looked after my mum was I you know, she she really did step up for me in my life. Um, I think there's a nice fair exchange going on here. I cooked for her. Um, I just stayed with her, and we we we did her normal routine, which was uh to watch all her shitty TV shows from five o'clock until this time, and then to watch the soap operas from this time to this time, watch eight different versions of the same news on different channels from this time, and I just stayed day in and day out doing that with her, and that's what she wanted, that's what she needed. Sometimes when you're being there for someone, I mean I you know we talked about this as well. I thought, well, what if any one of us two gets super sick? It's not our intention, but it's always a theoretical possibility. And um, do we want to wipe each other's asses if we're really, really sick and stuff like that? And we we decided no, we would get help to come in to do things like that, so none of us would end up maybe resenting the other. We did talk about a little bit about this, yeah. I mean is how to sort of help each other, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Um we talked about, you know, what if the result with your back had been different?

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

And I honestly at that stage, I just don't know because I was it was four years ago.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

And I told you what I would have done.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

So, Richard, well, you can explain what you would.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

I just would have turned around and said, listen, um I understand if you want to go and uh live your life with someone else or somewhere else, I totally understand. The last thing I'd ever want is a burden to be a burden to anyone because that's just uh or the that the person should feel obliged to. We all have um a right to our own lives and the right to put ourselves first, and I would have at least offered.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

And here's the thing, so I come back to the point made before. Four years ago, would I have stayed? Yes, because well, I loved you, but also because the guilt of not staying would have been huge, but would I have been resentful? Yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

She reminds me of the original Superman from the 70s, Christopher Reeve, who had an accident and fell off his horse and he was quadrupedic. And he said to his wife, just go out and live your life seriously. And she stayed right till the very end of his life, which was uh I don't know, it's really, really a brave thing to do. It's also maybe one could say it's the it's the right thing to do. Is it the right thing to do for yourself? Possibly not, but she did it, and so you try and come up with different ways and you get outside help organized in such a way that it makes your life easier as the carer.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yes, um, and I think most people that end up in that position of care they do just put themselves last, and that's what causes the resentment. Or you could get into victim mode. Oh, I stayed, now my life is ruined, and poor me, and wherever.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Well, that does happen, it will happen. Don't care what anyone says. I've seen this with uh my auntie.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

But you know, again, it it it is up to you as the carer to find a way of doing it with. Where you are happy to do it. Yes. Which it I is not easy. It involves perception shifts, it involves practical steps as well, you know, such as bringing in outside help to help with the burden of caring for someone. But I still maintain that if you genuinely love someone, it would be too heartbreaking to just walk away. I don't think that most people could live with that.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

I couldn't walk away from you. I just couldn't do it. There's no way I'd have to organise my life in such a way where I do put myself first, but I couldn't, I couldn't. I don't I wouldn't want to. Um and I know something about caring uh for someone who's who's sick.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

So of course this is for it for a whole two days.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Huh?

SPEAKER_00 23:02

For a whole two days.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

No, I'm talking about my mother.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

I know.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

I'm just taking 52 return flights in 18 months. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Yes, and um you know, Richard was very lucky to have his auntie very involved. Oh my god, she's safe. Yes. Your auntie is a saint.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

My auntie is the number one caregiver in the world. Yeah, like literally.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

She's like the Italian martyr.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Yeah, she is, but she's you know, she's not in great shape, and uh she is one who has constantly put herself last. And it shows. Yeah, and when you do things like that, you are not doing yourself any great favours energetically, spiritually, or physically, maybe spiritually, I don't know, but physically you're not because your body starts to throw things at you, yeah, um illnesses of your own and stuff like that. So it's it's it's a it's a fine line.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

And I think the other thing I just want to bring into the mix here is autonomy. So again, I'm carrying around this burden, but it's all a burden I put on myself. No one said to me, Sarah, you weren't there for me, you abandoned me when you needed me, or when I needed you, rather. Um everyone knows that they can pick up the phone, ask for support, and they for the most part my friends and family have always, when they wanted to, picked up the phone or texted or whatever to actually ask me. But in feeling like the burden of responsibility is on me, I'm almost taking away their autonomy because I'm like, oh my god, I should absolutely like you know, throw myself out there and force my force like my advice or my help on them. And that takes away other people's autonomy as well. And okay, that doesn't take away from the fact that the best kind of help is help that you don't ask for. And I think intuitively I can say that I've known when to actually push something and like be like, right, you haven't asked for me to do this, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Sometimes it's needed because the person needs to realize But I mean, the wisdom is kind of to know the difference, I think, and to know when you're not doing something because of your own fear of things around it.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Because you have all the answers and you're right, and people should do what you say because you've got an ego about it.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Well, I mean, if I break it down, I have this conflicting thing inside where I'm like, I want you to need me and to draw on me, but also I don't want to because if it's too emotionally painful, I'm gonna have to deal with the emotion, which again you can just I practice actually shielding myself from taking on other people's emotions now, yeah. But like that, but there's sort of still this conflict in me. I'm really annoyed that you don't want me around more, but also I don't want to be around. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

So how do you explain that? There's one last thing that we actually talked about, even with I when we were in London and your uncle was sick. Um we were in London, we were in London, and I suggested we go over to Ireland.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

We were in Lisbon, darling.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

We were going to London, and I said, let's hop over to go and basically say goodbye to your uncle, and we had an argument, we had a fight about that.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yes, we did.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Do you want to give an insight on that? I hope you don't feel I'm putting on the spot or anything.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah, you definitely put me on the spot.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Well you should answer that.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Um, my uncle died last September. Um, and another very integral uh person in my uh childhood. Again, death by cancer, although on the plus side didn't go through 10 years of it, but anyway, uh around August last year, I knew that he would die within the next few weeks. So Richard was like we should go and see him in they were in Ireland at the time, and um no one had asked me to do this, right? So my logic, this was my logic, my really it was an emotional thing, really. I um got really annoyed with Richard for suggesting it. I was like, don't tell me what to do. Like, have it awesome! So, you know, don't tell me what blah blah blah blah. This was clearly a case of intuitively this was something that I wanted to do intuitively, however, the emotions around it were intense and conflicting, and I knew it would be very difficult for me emotionally, I knew it would be saying goodbye, and so I didn't want to, I wanted to bury my head in the sand. Now, the thing with me, and I was talking about this the other day uh with one of my friends, I was like, you know what? When I know something intuitively is right, I will do the thing and I'll deal with the emotional fallout later. So that's what happened. I got over being annoyed at Richard, and then a few days later I was like, Yeah, you're right, let's do this. So we did indeed go and do it, and it was very much appreciated, even though it was not asked for.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Oh no, yeah, and everyone was really, especially your uncle, he was happy. He was very happy, yeah, and it was uh and so yeah, we didn't want to sort of don't feel too uh brought down with the conversation, but I thought it was a very important conversation to have because it can happen to anyone, a loved one, when someone gets sick and you're faced with and these days it's normally cancer or something derived or something else which is just as serious from the last 50, 60, 70 years of lifestyle, and uh that's a whole different discussion, anyway. I think but I mean you know, any one of us can be faced with this kind of thing, so you know I think sorry, I I think that's a very important message in this.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Sorry to interrupt you, but I was gonna say it wouldn't be a podcast if I didn't interrupt you. Um, it's um the overriding messages, we've all had that feeling where we knew something was the right thing to do, but like our emotions were like, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this, and you feel like a bad person for thinking that, but you're not, you're just fucking human with your human emotions and you know not wanting to see someone in pain, it's what you actually end up doing that counts, and also similarly recognize when you're trying to get involved with something and taking away someone's autonomy because you need some sense of validation. You know, if you could recognise the difference between the scenarios, that's helpful. Was that what you were gonna say?

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Uh no, but I have now forgotten what it was that I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Okay, which means it was probably intuitive, so yeah. My bad for the listeners, you've missed out on you've missed out on my fucking pearls of wisdom. Yeah, your pearls of wisdom now.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Okay. Alright, I think that's enough. Unless you would like to add anything else.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

It's a very weird conversation to have in the context of a couple who's been together for a long time who's never really discussed this. What happens if one of us gets really sick? Um, one of us should prepare for it because it's we all know that being prepared takes away the likelihood of shit happening anyway, so or at least it reduces the impact of what could happen to about 20% if you are prepared. And I'm not saying you know, most people will go, Oh, well, that's tempting fate. There's no such fucking thing, to be honest. If you're prepared for something, the impact will be less if it does even happen. More often than not, if you're fully prepared for something, the thing that you are prepared for is probably likely not to happen.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Then even if it does, like there's nothing worse than like psychological shock that you're like, oh my god, I never visited whatever happened. Really, I wasn't. I mean, in the realm of possibilities of shit, it's clearly likely that this situation could occur.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Especially today, where anything could happen. Well, 95% of us are uh ignorant of what's going on, sick, and poor. And that's the way the powers that be want it.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

So, yeah, so let's get off the conspiracy theory realm, but yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Well, no, but it's true. It's not conspiracy theory, it's a fucking fact.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Anyway, anyway, on that note, I I'm sure uh uh we can have another episode where the lizard man can share his share his musings.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

I love you, babe.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

I love you too, sweetie, and I love you all out there. Take care and catch you on the next one.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Bye for now.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Bye for now. We'd like to thank you for tuning in and listening to this episode today. If you like what you heard, I invite you to follow our show. And if you really liked our show, head over and leave a review on your podcast app of choice. We also want to hear your thoughts and questions. So if there's anything you would like us to cover on the show, please drop us a line on the email below. Thank you for listening, and until next time.