The Bone Zone

Episode 38: Love on the Ledger

• Sara & Richard

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The idea of fair exchange and equal contribution within the context of a relationship can be complicated.

And it’s often the people shouting the loudest about how much they contribute that need to be doing more!

In this episode, we talk about:

·        Why feeling like you don’t contribute enough may be a sign you might be giving too much

·        The perception of the word “contribution” quite often gets limited to only thinking about financial contribution 

·        Broadening the perception of the word “contribution” to get back into fair exchange

·        Supporting your partner in all ways and playing to each others’ skills

We want to hear your thoughts and questions, so if there's anything you would like us to cover on the show, please drop us a line on

 info@thebone-zone.com 

And if you want to check out Sara’s solo podcast, The Mind Body Spirit Accelerator – where she gives you simple neuroscience-based tips (that actually work) to create the life you want, you can check it out on:

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/033kZ5sPIbZkkQe6j6xJkH?si=99231cc2e65c4d8a or 

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mind-body-spirit-accelerator/id1896793868 

 

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the Bone Zone. I'm Sarah.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm Richard.

SPEAKER_00

And in this podcast, we excavate sex and relationship myths and uncover the truth of how it all really works. We bridge the esoteric and practical worlds to bring you grounded, sage, and tangible advice and tools, whether you're looking to attract a soulmate relationship or grow and expand within an existing one.

SPEAKER_01

Good morning, good evening, good night, and Hello and goodbye. I don't know. Welcome to another episode of The Bone Zone when we have finally figured out what it is the fuck we are talking about today.

SPEAKER_00

Hello!

SPEAKER_01

You don't need to scream the the equalizer right into the red. That's not good for recordings, my love. What?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. I can't see the equalizer.

SPEAKER_01

You can't see the equalizer. Okay, great. So we're gonna get cracking. We were talking earlier on today about contributions within the context of a couple. Um we've seen some anecdotal evidence, but we've seen some uh evidence of uh couples or one side of the couple um saying, Yes, but I contribute, I contribute, I contribute, I do everything I can. When in fact it turns out that they're not really contributing, or they're not realised that the other party is also contributing, but in a different way. Type of a I know we talked about this in previous podcasts, type of a fur exchange type thing. I just wanted to um sort of elaborate on this further today, now that we've actually decided on the topic of discussion for the day.

SPEAKER_00

So um I'm just gonna segment that. So you've got the people that say, I've given 100% in my relationship.

SPEAKER_01

You sound like your father, though.

SPEAKER_00

But they have not. You've got the people who feel like nothing's ever enough in the relationship, and generally that means that they're giving actually too much away, so they're out of fair exchange. Yeah. And then you've got people's limited perceptions of what contribution is, and very often it comes down to money. Money, money.

SPEAKER_01

Great. So it's kind of um um moving on forward from the last one we did where nothing is ever enough. Kind of a fitting uh Yes, but no. Yes, but no, you always do that. Yes, you're right, but you're also completely wrong.

SPEAKER_00

It's it's different in that where someone feels like they're not contributing enough, they're quite often not putting themselves first. So I think we would rather talk about it in that context today. But let's take this piece by piece, and I feel inclined to start with the last piece around what contribution is or what people perceive it to be a lot of the time, and it very, very often comes down to money. So, for example, I've you know come across people that I've met socially and they're like, my partner's earning the money at the moment, therefore I do all of the admin within the relationship, the organization of this, that, and the other, and I run the hope. Okay, but you know, for me that actually starts to sound like my partner is paying me to be his administrator or PA. Like for me, that brings the wrong type of energy to the relationship because it sort of starts to feel like a tit for tat, like my partner is providing money, therefore, I feel like I have to do all of these things to earn or be in fair exchange with this money, and then so many problems come as a result of this perception of money being the thing that is the contribution.

SPEAKER_01

So we live in it getting resentful.

SPEAKER_00

So sorry, can I you've interrupted me? You've interrupted me.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, no, how does it feel?

SPEAKER_00

It's really annoying.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, really annoying. Please pray, continue.

SPEAKER_00

Um so taking aside uh this concept of financial abuse, which within abusive relationships, finances are used as a form of control. That's not necessarily what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about let's call it more low-level dysfunction around money. But women have been taught that it's dangerous to lie on a man. And basically, that dependence is a bad thing, which of course it can be a bad thing, it can become toxic, but in a lot of cases, if if each party sat down and thought about fair exchange more broadly, it needn't be a toxic thing or something that causes fear of your partner leaving one day and taking all their money with them. And the other the other kind of argument I've heard around this is well, okay, the woman is earning some money, but in order to maintain her lifestyle, she's dependent on the man, and this is dangerous. And I was talking about this with my cousin the other day, and she said, Well, you know what? If I split up with my partner, who she is currently more financially dependent on, although it has ebbed and flowed and been one person and then the other doing the main support over the course of the relationship, but currently that's the situation. She said, You know what? I trust myself that I'll figure it out, whatever happens in this relationship. So, therefore, there is none of this fear that she tends to carry around uh about relying on her partner for money.

SPEAKER_01

That's that's a great uh attitude because okay, money is not the root of all evil, but it certainly can be the root of a lot of problems if left unchecked. So it's quite a good um thing that she said, your cousin.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, and you know, uh the argument against this could be well, I stayed at home for 10, 15 years looking after the children, and now I'm not desirable in the job market.

SPEAKER_01

Well Well, there are other things one can do.

SPEAKER_00

To that, I say I have worked with uh a few uh women that would fall into that category over the years, and they go on to set up businesses and still go on to create purposeful businesses, they just have to think about it more laterally rather than sort of go into a panic because they're quote unquote too old now and the job market doesn't find them desirable. The job market tends to like people that fit neatly in boxes, yeah. But if you start to think, sorry, I hate this expression, outside the box, it doesn't it doesn't necessarily need to be a limitation for you. And also within the context of a couple where it is a good relationship, the success levels of both parties tend to grow over time within the relationship as well. So the chances are okay, maybe you are at home with the children, but your husband is encouraging you to maybe start a business or a side hustle or something that you can do as well to start to generate money.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I was like this with you. Um the first three, four months. I was everything was uh uh I ended every sentence with if we're still together. So there's this thing that you haven't even begun a relationship and you already think about if you're gonna split up, which is the completely the wrong attitude. No wonder that people like are so fiercely independent and don't want to give uh any part of themselves to the other in that way.

SPEAKER_00

So uh sorry, fun story around that. When I said it back to Richard, if we're still together after about three or four months, he looked really offended. I was like, Oh, you don't like it, do you?

SPEAKER_01

Uh just like you don't like being interrupted.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah, no, it is really annoying.

SPEAKER_01

It is really fucking annoying. Thank you, love. Right, now you know how it feels like. We also have a friend who, for example, she's raised two lovely kids, and I don't know how old they are. Um, maybe just double digits on the uh one is one is about one is ten, the other is seven. She's taken a part-time job and she was out of the market for a number of years. There's always something, yes, you're not gonna go back to sort of a job in banking unless you know you find other stuff to keep you occupied, and maybe from that something beautiful happens.

SPEAKER_00

Just to say though, that's getting a part time job wouldn't maintain her lifestyle, and that's uh a lot of the fear that people carry around. However, what she is also doing is looking at how she can build a business that grows over time.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. There's been pl plenty of success stories, but you know, if you're gonna sort of convince yourself or be convinced that I'm past it, I'm too old, everyone's ages, and blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, then you're fucked, aren't you? Really?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so sorry, let's bring this back on point here around so what do you do about this? It's a question of starting to open up your vision to all the different forms of contribution aside from money. So, an example I give of that is uh quite often multi-multi-multi-millionaires, billionaires, they had a partner, usually a first wife, that supported them in the creation of their companies and their wealth. Now, they would not have been able to do what they did without that support. That in itself is something that nobody ever tends to put a value on.

SPEAKER_01

No, it's true.

SPEAKER_00

Nobody ever tend like, for example, Richard gets free coaching. What a lucky guy. Free free free intuitive reasons. I don't I see it as um something that creates value and for him and enables him to generate greater levels of success. Do I make him pay me for it? Maybe I see it as being in fair exchange because I can literally think, okay, I'm doing this now, but Richard did this for me yesterday, he does all of these things for me. I don't need to basically think of this as just a monetary thing. Yes, he takes me out to dinner, that has a monetary value, but him fixing things around the house, right?

SPEAKER_01

Fixing everything around the house.

SPEAKER_00

Fixing everything around the house. Him um doing some of the tech stuff for me that is associated with my business. So I'm constantly looking for ways that we are in fair exchange, especially now that I acknowledge um this is actually you know, like the lifestyle we have, you pay for a lot of that lifestyle. Yes, but which is your choice, but for someone that has always been fairly independent, I am constantly balancing here is why we are in fair exchange. Now, that doesn't mean I'm gonna start frantically cooking dinner every night and doing all of that because that would come out of a place of not feeling enough. But I am looking for ways that we can contribute to each other based on our skill sets, what we want to be doing, etc.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely, absolutely, and also I'd like to add that when you're talking about this fair exchange, try not to sort of add up the amount of money on each side that this fair exchange brings because it's a useless exercise. Money is just there to have a lifestyle. Okay, so look at what you're bringing into the relationship, something else the other doesn't have, something else that maybe the other struggles with, and can you always use your health? It can be uh you know, from a man's side, it could be, you know, holding a container for the feminine of your partner, it can be a whole bunch of things. It could be to allow one to feel vulnerable in front of the other. I mean, all these things are are things that you both give to even out this kind of fair exchange. And I think just about doing things around the house. That's what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think this is a conversation that it's really worth having within a relationship because it goes way beyond okay, stay at home, mum, dad goes out and earns the income.

SPEAKER_01

There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that, but that's the woman in that case will be a home maker. You know, a guy can pay for a house, but the woman makes the home.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, no, but you're you're missing what I'm saying. It doesn't have to be in that very traditional sense because that creates the expectation of unless I'm at home having the job of stay-at-home mum, I don't deserve to receive this money, or it can feel like that for some people. So it becomes if this is what I talk mean about seeing things as a job, stay-at-home mum is a job, because I'm sorry, if someone wasn't staying at home with the children, you would pay someone to um to uh do some of the childcare. So it's about really thinking more laterally outside of the realms of what people tend to. Outside the box. Huh?

SPEAKER_01

Outside the box. Yes. Your favorite expression.

SPEAKER_00

In some relationships, it can almost feel like I'm doing X, therefore you have to do Y. So it it takes on this feeling of a job, and I don't know about you, but I don't want to feel like I'm an employee of my partner. But I feel like, sorry, don't interrupt me. Um, I feel like um that's how some people are meant to feel or made to feel like that, and obviously no one can make you feel a way that you don't feel at some level.

SPEAKER_01

Made to feel like that, because there is a bit of contract involved in in family, in raising a family, as to sort of assign maybe tasks, no one can do it all always at once. There is some kind of a non-signed contract somewhere along the line. Yes, okay. We we we we made each other promises. That's kind of a contract. So there is it's it's the person's fault if they are made to Well, actually, it's not the person's fault. If you are made to feel, and that's what I'm kind of isolating, what you just said is very important. If you are made to feel like you're not fucking pulling your weight, here I am, I bring in the money, you couldn't even fucking hoover the floor. That's what changes everything. Yeah. So there's nothing wrong with this non-said, non-spoken contract. I earn the money, I will provide food, I will give you a house, you raise me a beautiful family and make a beautiful home for us. And that's it.

SPEAKER_00

There's I feel like it should be discussed explicitly, actually, because I think a lot of times, if it isn't, then it's kind of there's stuff going on under the surface, there's resentments going on under the surface.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely, I agree.

SPEAKER_00

And um, I mean, let's not forget we live in a world where a lot of in a lot of couples both parties need to work, and the woman still ends up taking a lot on of the home responsibilities, which starts to create resentment because it starts to feel really out of fair exchange if the woman is taking on the burden of everything, and you know, I um I have a friend who um her husband was taking on the responsibility of paying the mortgage for a few months, and it was almost like she felt this was a big thing or like he was doing her a favour. They have, you know, a child together. She takes care of most of the stuff within the home. Um, she works as well, she's self-employed, so it's not like a full-time job, but still I found it extraordinary that that that would even be any level of oh, him doing this is a thing. Um, and that comes when you start to see contribution as mostly financial.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yes, it can't really mess things up. Uh money.

SPEAKER_00

People are funny about it.

SPEAKER_01

People need to talk about yeah, well, we talked about it at length. You know, I I made a commitment, you make commitments, and we know that everything's out in the open but a lot of people and they start with these feelings of resentment and they bubble and bubble for years because nothing ever gets talked about. If you really want to have a great relationship with your partner and raise kids who don't get fucked up about money, then these these are things that need to really be talked about, right? Cards on table. And then any resentments that are there, they'll they'll c they'll jump out and then you can resolve them there and then. Otherwise, potentially down the line could be a disaster. Yes. And then with kids involved, even more of a disaster, because then they'll grow up with the same fucking narratives that have been bestowed on them by their parents without even doing it on purpose. The kids are just there, they're like sponges. So, yeah, talk about it. No matter how uncomfortable, actually, the more uncomfortable you feel, the more you need to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I mean, and actually, even before you get to talking about it, I would think about here are all the ways that I contribute. And you know what? If you want to start putting a financial value on that, do that. Not so that you can go into the conversation and be like, look at all the things I do, you'd have to pay X amount on the open market for this. That's not what I mean, but just to really ground into I am worthy and valuable and I deserve to be treated well within this relationship. And sorry, being treated well does not mean your partner gets to do the bare minimum and like no no.

SPEAKER_01

Here's the classic example, actually, is you're going out on a date, okay? And I believe I just can't tolerate this new fucking age shit where by it's going halves on a date. That's such a load of shit. It really is.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I mean, when you say that, but we did that for the first few years of our relationship.

SPEAKER_01

Because of you, because your issues surrounding money. Yeah, that's true. But the first day I took you on, I fucking paid for it.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, because I actually have always believed that a man should pay for the first date because it is true.

SPEAKER_01

I'd spent I got a blow dry and like stop stop stealing my thunder here.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I was about to say all of that, and then you will I like our new boundaries where we're telling each other not to interrupt.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, yeah, shut the fuck up. Please, just no. Okay. Where was I? Yes, so the guides maybe. Sitting there going, Oh, um, I'm going the cheaper side of a restaurant or for a first date. No, a lot of guys, how many guys out there? I don't know if there are any men who listen to this podcast, but guys, how many of you actually bother to to go to the lengths to actually add up how much a woman actually spends on a first date with you with you? How much hair? 100 quid? What for a blow dry? I don't know. Hair, blow dry.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, that's a not even for the listener.

SPEAKER_01

Let's call it 50. Let's call it 50. You're waxing. Waxing, how much?

SPEAKER_00

I'm not going through my entire beauty bell, but it's not insignificant.

SPEAKER_01

But no, I'm not. No, in general, in general, listen, listen, you've got a few hundred pounds, or a few hundred dollars, really, two hundred at the minimum, right? To for a woman to look beautiful on her first date with you. So don't go, oh no, take her to like a £50 a head restaurant. No, do the fair exchange thing. Take her out and wow her. You know? Well, if you care about if you care, but this is the art of fair exchange. I don't know, I don't know how many guys actually think about this. Really, and it's a great example of no.

SPEAKER_00

Well, look, I actually don't even want to say that. I it's not because you're thinking in terms of money here, and I just want most people do think but I want to take it outside the realms of money. Let's say you don't have a lot of money, and you you're like, I I really care about this person and making a good impression, but I don't want to spend $200, whatever. So that doesn't mean that you can't create a thoughtful date for someone. For example, you could put together a beautiful picnic and take someone to a beautiful place, which shows that you've put thought into doing that. Um, and that's because again, I the reason why I mention this is because I've read statistics around how Gen Z aren't dating because it's too expensive. And I'm like, that's an excuse. There it's about the effort and thought that goes into something, not the amount of money per se. And yes, money is one of the ways of showing effort and thought, but a lot of people throw money at something without actually any effort or thought behind it.

SPEAKER_01

This is oh, that's a really valid point. So once again, I was right but wrong.

SPEAKER_00

No, but it's it it actually just goes to show how insidious this programming around money is.

SPEAKER_01

It really, really is. She will know if you've been creative and taken her out on this wonderful date and whatever it is, and you've gotten really creative. And I'm just that's like a uh uh much more than money, really.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, and just to say we had spent time together before you took me on the first date. So maybe I don't know, you meet someone for a coffee and you really hit it off, and then you plan something really special, and uh that's fine too. But the point is just to put some effort to, and I'm sorry, like going for a coffee is not an official first date, like it involves no real thoughts at all.

SPEAKER_01

Also, also, people um how often do they actually maybe they might hear what you're saying, but they're not really listening, or is it vice versa? So if you're sitting down having a coffee and you're speaking to someone and they say, Oh, I really love to do this X, or I don't know, whatever the fuck it is that they're saying that they like to do, and then you take that bit of information because you've been listening and hearing, and then you plan the date around in that. It could be, oh, it's this player I really want to see, or I can't get in, and then you endeavour to go and get the tickets for said play and take her out to this play. Doesn't have to be dinner. Yes, I mean it's about and it doesn't have to be front row seats at 200 pounds a pop.

SPEAKER_00

And actually, that's sorry, that's something that a lot of uh wealthy men might not actually put any thought into or anything because they're just like I'll throw money at the problem and whatever. But that again is the programming of it's all about money, yes, it is, and that's quite unfortunate. Then you've got people that are like, I've put in so much effort into the relationship, and they literally keep repeating this story, and when it comes down to it, they've done nothing really. Or maybe they did therapy at one point for like what 10 years ago? Yeah, for well, no, even a few years ago for a few months, and they did therapy, but they never went below the surface level, they never talked outside of therapy, and they're like, No, I I did all of this, I did all of that, and it didn't work.

SPEAKER_01

Actually, making an effort in that respect is when you just empty yourself and become vulnerable and go to the places that make you them give you the most discomfort, that's putting everything into a relationship.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, and also sorry, if you're stuck on surface level stuff, that's not the thing.

SPEAKER_01

That's seemingly doing something but resolving nothing.

SPEAKER_00

I've uh and look, in in my work as a coach, I've come across these types of people before who were like, I've been I've done the therapy thing, it turned out they'd been to four sessions and it was a bit uncomfortable, so they gave up. Or they were like, Yeah, I've done like this for like two sessions and nothing changed, so I gave up. Or I've done these action steps once and nothing changed.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, and nothing happened, so I stopped. Yeah, it's classic, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

So what I'm saying around that is if you are saying that, right? Chances are you're saying it because you're trying to prop up some kind of story that you've told yourself to make yourself feel better around whatever's gone on. And I get it, these stories are like really compelling. I've I find myself falling into this as well sometimes. Oh, I've done this thing, but it turns out I kind of did it for a week and then kind of forgot about it, and blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_01

Somewhere guilty of that.

SPEAKER_00

So my point here is in 90% of cases, if you're proudly proclaiming that, it's probably not actually true. So the question is, you know, well, directing this question back on yourself, is this really true that I gave a hundred percent? And most of the time the answer will be no. And I'm not saying this because I want you to beat yourself up because I'm like, oh my god, I didn't. No, it's an opportunity to go and make things right, it's an opportunity to get back on the saddle in the saddle again. Is that the expression? And from a place of radical honesty and be like, okay, you know, it's perfectly normal that sometimes I slide back. Let's just actually really give this a shot. And when I say give this a shot, I don't just mean you have one hour of therapy or one hour of whatever once a week. It's about doing things every fucking day. I cannot express this enough. Like doing things like once a week or letting things lapse for a few weeks or even for a month is going to hamper your progress. So I don't care. Honestly, it's I'm getting on my soap back box now.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, you are.

SPEAKER_00

Honestly, I don't give a crap if you say to me I put 100% into my marriage and it fell apart. If essentially what you mean is you did that up until about two years ago, and then you basically like went on a date night like once a I don't know, a month, or it's not enough to maintain the connection within the relationship. So, again, you don't have to listen to what I'm saying, but the only way that you can get to meaningful change is to do things consistently for a period of time, and you know, it might be you're doing something for a couple of months and then you change to something else and you start building and adding on what you're doing, that's fine, but the point is the consistency.

SPEAKER_01

And additional notes, because the nature of this work is you pretty much go, you need to go relentlessly every day and do at least something, whatever that might be. Should you find yourself in a position where you have not or you've defaulted on that particular commitment to yourself, please, please, please do not go being sorry, do not beat yourself up about it or start to become overly critical to yourself. Just get back on that saddle and resume whatever activity it was. Because when you go down the road of being critical and beating yourself up, that's when you really truly fuck yourself up.

SPEAKER_00

We did an episode on this last week, so if you want to know why, listen to that episode. And on that note No, wait, so sorry, there's one there's one other thing, yes, which is people that feel like they're never giving enough. That's well, first of all, you can refer to everything that we discussed around looking at all of the ways that you do contribute to the relationship and all the ways that you add value and worth to everything that also extends to your work, your friendships, everything in your life to really buoy up this sense of your value in all the areas of life so that you stop or you kind of train yourself out of this feeling of not enoughness. Because if you are carrying that kind of perception around with you, the chances are your partner will start picking at you and being like, Oh, you never do enough, you don't clean well enough, you don't cook it well enough, you don't do X, Y, and Z. Because they are reflecting back what you are feeling at some level in one or more areas of your life. And that's why quite often you see um really nice partners with bitches, and then like the partner is like just giving everything to the other person. Well, you know, what is it about that person that is attracting all of these good things? Well, because they are essentially putting themselves first, they're like, it's all about me, blah blah blah. And I'm totally not saying you should be like that, that's not what I'm saying, but it's to demonstrate the point that the more you feel deficient in the relationship, the more it's going to be reflected back to you. And on that note, Richard is giving me a time out.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, this time out because it was um getting a bit too much information.

SPEAKER_00

Tia mah!

SPEAKER_01

Well, not too much information, but you know, we're kind of getting onto subjects that we can do on subsequent episodes.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So uh final points.

SPEAKER_01

Which is gonna last no, no, no, it isn't.

SPEAKER_00

Uh please do feel free to follow us on Instagram Podcast Bone Zone, which is something we started doing about a month ago now, and we are also introducing monthly live QA's and masterclasses. So you can sign up to our newsletter to know when those are happening.

SPEAKER_01

And on that note.

SPEAKER_00

And on that note, I'm done.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Okay. See you in the next one. See you next time. Bye. We'd like to thank you for tuning in and listening to this episode today. If you like what you heard, I invite you to follow our show. And if you really liked our show, head over and leave a review on your podcast app of choice. We also want to hear your thoughts and questions. So, if there's anything you would like us to cover on the show, please drop us a line on the email below. Thank you for listening, and until next time.