Why Can't I Just Do _____?

Do you ever struggle to do even the simplest things that you know are good for you? Even when you already did the hard part?

Do you ever wonder how to have the hard conversations with people you love when you see them doing the same thing?

Today we talk: 

• Stages of change and how being in messy midlife impacts our ability to move through them
• How we show up in relationships and how we lovingly talk about hard things
• The importance of talking about the hard things before we are in crisis
• The importance of trusting and loving friendships that are a safe container to talk about shame
• Where "I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, but..." and starting at a solution or absolute belongs in loving and difficult conversations

Chapters

00:00 Welcome and Setting the Stage
01:29 Navigating Personal Health as Doctors
05:20 The Challenge of Self-Care
10:20 The Psychology of Change and Healing
12:08 Honesty in Friendships and Relationships
19:00 Navigating Difficult Conversations
22:21 The Role of Friends in Relationships
24:44 Openness to Change and Acceptance
27:01 The Impact of Shame on Relationships
31:05 Creating Safe Spaces for Conversations
34:30 Curiosity as a Tool for Connection
40:03 Stages of Change and Personal Growth

If our messy is your kind of messy, we would love for you to rate, review and follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. 

We would also love to know what is on your mind. If you were to join us, what would we be talking about? Email us at messymidlifepodcast@gmail.com or message us on Instagram or TikTok @messymidlifepodcast.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Real women.

SPEAKER_04 0:02

Real talk. Real messy. This is Messy Midlife. Hi, everybody, and welcome back to Messy Midlife. Hi, ladies.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Good morning.

SPEAKER_04 0:15

How's everybody doing today? It's a Monday. Actually, so we've had a couple conversations recently that have been a lot more doctory and a lot more professional. I'm hoping that we can just chat today and not be on have our doctor hats on so much. I mean, they might come out anyway, because you know, they just do. We can't help it. But so I'm just curious. Like, let's go back to our roots. What's on your mind?

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Um, I had a good conversation with one of my best friends um from medical school yesterday. And was it yesterday? No, it was Saturday. Anyway. Now, see, I'm turning into my mom. What day was it? Was it it was 11:47 a.m. and we talked for a while.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

It doesn't even matter. And somehow I can't move forward until I figure out this thing that has no relevance on the story at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

That's my so Mel and I were talking, and we hadn't talked in gosh, it'd been a few months at least. And so she was asking me how things were going just with you know, my health and autoimmune and physical stuff. And though, you know, sometimes it's like it's hard because we were our own doctors, right? I don't have a primary care doctor. When I go see a specialist and they ask the primary care doctor, I say self or none. Um, and I recognize and I have recognized that that's not that's not giving myself the support that I tell my patients they need.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

But to be honest, and I mean I agree with that, and I think it is wonderful that you have your own primary and we're here for you. And you have wonderful, you do have a lot of really wonderful resources that frankly, I mean, not to toot our own horn, but you make you you've got a good team. You've got a good team, and I understand why that's come to be, and it's probably a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Which is why I don't, right? Because I've always felt like I have my people I can rely on. I mean, that's just part of being a doctor. But also it's it's different, right? There are times where I don't reach out to my friends because they're busy, they have their lives, making an appointment. This is my time with you. I don't really do that with my friends, right? Mel and I were were talking, and I was filling her in and she was asking a lot of questions. I feel better today. I had a cervical epidural last Tuesday, so six days ago. And it's actually helped a lot with like the hand pain and all of the neuropathy that I've been experiencing. And we were talking about the arthritis picture, and you know, she was shocked that, you know, I'm on two biologics plus sulfazalzine, plus an anti-inflammatory, plus a dietal arthritis. She was shocked that the things I'm taking, and I was telling her how I had a really bad flare last week for a few days. And she was like, How can you possibly have a flare on all those things? So, you know, we talked about the the stress component of it, and I was telling her how, you know, one of the things that is really strange with me is my blood sugar or my hemoglobin C and my blood sugar will be totally normal, even actually on the lower side, but my insulin will be crazy high. And it's been that way. It's not just one time, it's been that way on multiple tests. And I saw an endocrinologist, and maybe this is kind of part of it too. You know, I saw an endocrinologist at UCSD, and I was really concerned about this. And she basically said insulin doesn't matter. And I'm not gonna go into the details of that whole conversation, but basically it just wasn't um anything to consider or think about. Where for me, there's there's a reason. I went so far as to have a not through her, um, but through another doctor, I went so far as to have a C C T scan of my abdomen and pelvis to see if there was like an insulinoma, which there was not, didn't didn't show that at all, which is good. But she was just giving me like these ideas and saying, hey, when when was the last time you did your labs? And have you ever run any autoimmune stuff for like diabetes and blood sugar, right? And which are things I hadn't really thought about, right? I just thought, like, okay, my body is messed up right now. I'm just kind of having to deal with it. And then we were talking about, you know, with the insulin issue plus the joint stuff, you know, should have you have you tried a GLP one? And I said, well, no, but I have a$350 bottle of Redatrutide sitting in my fridge. I've had for months since December. I actually packed up and, you know, took to Palm Springs with me when I was going to take care of my dad, just sat in the fridge there for two weeks, right? Like I mean, I literally went and got uh pulled out my medical kit and got all my needles and syringes and took it with me and then didn't touch it. I have$300 worth of BPC 157 sitting in the fridge that not touched.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

Which is a peptide that people are saying is the miracle peptide for all things. We'll probably have a conversation about that when we get our medical hats back on.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

But a lot of people have a lot of joint pain and pain relief with it. Same with the retotrutide, right? That's one of the things that that people are really noticing with it. And I've had a couple of patients tell me that have had significant joint and back pain that it's it's basically helped to go away. So we got into a conversation about how sometimes it's really difficult when you're feeling pulled in all of these different directions and taking care of everyone else. It's hard to just do the things that you know will be helpful for you. Because I was in the space of like, God, I'm just I'm such an idiot. Why, you know, it's literally sitting there in my fridge waiting for me. I don't care. I can inject anything. I have no fear of needles. I've injected stuff in like for you know years and years, right? Why would I, it's not what's keeping me from doing it? And I'm interested in your take, Karen, like from the like therapy perspective too. But it's like, what's stopping me from doing something that is sitting 10 feet away from where I am right now? Like, what's why haven't I done it? Right. And I, and it's that whole, I don't know, the whole idea of our energy is being so pushed out and pulled out to other situations and other people that there's like nothing left for us.

SPEAKER_04 6:16

I think it goes beyond just the energy going out to people. I think that there is, at least for me, and you know, if I'm reading your mind and just how I know you and the conversations we've had, I think that there's also just a limit to how much we have the capacity for. Like you said, you're already taking so many things. I think that sometimes we reach a point where things that we have used having failed us, it feels like one more thing. And what if this fails us? So starting something that might be helpful sometimes, sometimes feels even worse than not having an option because what if this option fails? I think there's also just adding one more thing to an already very full life that requires a certain amount of consistency and not necessarily a daily thing. You have to remember to give yourself an injection at a certain point. And preparing an injection takes a small amount of effort, but sometimes one little more thing that you have to remember to do at a not daily interval feels like a lot. And then let's just be honest, just the daily work without including a medication, all of the things that we feel like we need to do, or that that like legitimately we need to do, that our healthcare providers, friends, just our medical training, social media, whatever happens to be, that are required to take care of an aging body, it is a lot, a lot. And so even doing something that you know you need to do and that will prevent further issues in the long run, or that could help you very immediately right now, can become really hard for all of those things.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

I think you both nailed it. You know, the the piece I would add there, and and it's really just a redelivery of the information that you've both mentioned, Elisa, you specifically targeting the fact that there is so much to do for others, the sandwich generation piece. And then, Jen, what you're talking about, which encompasses the psychology of healing and the psychology of change. And so when we put these two things together, the energy necessary for making the decision and scheduling it is not readily available because you're taking care of so many other things outside of yourself and of yourself, which Jen, you also mentioned, right? It's not like this is the one and only thing you have to do to for your health. There's all of these other things. And so it reminds me of the stages of change. And even though in some moments you may have been at a action stage of change when you purchased it, or there's been a lot of things that have happened. And the the psychological piece around hopelessness that that keeps bubbling up around is anything ever gonna make it better? And I think we've all experienced that in different, different ways, requires us to go from a pre-contemplative stage to a contemplative stage to a preparation stage to an action stage, and then maintenance after that, right? It's not this automatic thing. And that requires energy that is currently being given to our loved ones, our pets, other forms of self-care. That's where we are.

SPEAKER_04 9:33

And we end up in this place where we then start to beat ourselves up about not taking this action that might help us. And where's the line of the stress that adding this thing in causes and the ways that we increase our inflammation, increase all of the hormone cascades that we've talked about recently that can make things go a little bit chaotic and and in in like increase the impact that stress has on our our lives and on our health and everything? Where does that line exist? And where do we where do we cross it? Where does the initial stressor and potentially ongoing stressor, where does that become more beneficial to us than not doing something? And where does where does the not doing something help?

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Actually, something really came to mind when you said that for me. And I'm kind of surprised by myself, but I'm actually in this space right now, not beating myself up. And you guys know that's a first for me. So even though I know I have these things available to me, I should, I hate air quotes, but I should have been doing it. I'm not in that place of being mad with myself or upset with myself. And that feels like a big shift, right? I think it's been, it's been coming, right? I've been so much gentler and so much kinder to myself over the last few years in terms of things like that, right? But when you said that, Jen, I like, I was like, surprise, I'm not for once. And I think that's what I think that's what we need to give ourselves, but also give each other, right? And I think that's why being doctors like we are and the type of care we provide is so important for our patients because we don't focus on the you should have been doing this. Oh gosh. Right? It's it's where are you today? Yeah, let's start now. And what you should have been doing doesn't really matter. Yeah. And I say that to patients all the time, right? But this is the first time in a while that I've actually like truly felt that for myself.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

That's celebration worthy for sure. Yeah. That's really, really lovely. And the validation that I think is so helpful to receive from your girlfriends, your loved ones of and it's something that deep down you know, there's a part of you that knows you are busy and the energy necessary to implement a new routine requires and requires energy. And it's not just about the specifics and the logistics. There's a little bit of healing and and um reconciling that has to occur beyond that piece.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Something else that came up was, and it's a little bit of a different topic, but I feel like this is definitely something that's been on my mind too. So relationships with, you know, for us, obviously, we're friends and doctors. Um, and when I was talking to Mel, she's a wonderful doctor as well. But we were talking also about that the dynamic between friends, between our female friends, and being able to be really honest with each other and not feel like it's going to hurt the other person or that we're saying something that they don't want to hear. And like I know Jan and I have had lots of conversations about this, just as friends, you know, but the idea of, you know, when you see a friend or like, you know, a sister like like we are, right? When you see somebody so close to you doing something that you know isn't the right thing for them, or you really feel isn't in their best interest, and how we really hold back from saying that because we don't want them to get defensive, we don't want to risk the chance, like the chance that we could maybe ruin a friendship or there could be resentment or anything. And so we were talking a lot about there has to be like a collective shift in that where we're able to speak freely because the reality is your friends, your closest friends, your sisters, your siblings really honestly, a lot of times when you have that close relationship, do know what's best for you and they can see things that you're not seeing. And how there has to be like this shift in the dynamic of feeling like you can't speak honestly because you're worried about their reaction. Like we have to get to a place where we can find a way to do that and speak that, but then also on the flip side, find a way where we can accept that even if it's not what we want to hear. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 13:51

And this is a hundred percent. So you said it's not connected, but it's a hundred percent connected to what we're talking about because as I was talking, I realized it was. Yeah. Because this is it's not just about should you take this medication or should you go to this doctor appointment. It's about the ways that your body is not responding to things it should be responding to and it's not doing the things that it should be able to do, in large part because of some men who showed up in your life. Honestly, let's just say it right out there. And the truth of the matter is I failed you as a friend because I did not speak up a couple of times with these two men that showed up in your life because I was trying to be respectful of and recognize that I was not the one in the relationship, that I was not the one who was living it, and I didn't necessarily have all of the information that I might need. And I was trying to just respect you and what you wanted and and what you to trust that you were were making the right decision for yourself, even though there were times along the way, multiple times, that I was like, what is she doing? This is not going in the direction it should be going. She is not behaving like herself in these situations. I've lost a little bit of who she is, and I just hope she finds her way back because if this continues along this path, I don't know where our friendship will go because the ways that we are just changed by who we are spending our primary relationship with, right? And all of the ways that I see very clearly looking back to 2019 uh and the trajectory things, the way things have gone that have a very clear pinpoints with how you are doing physically and certain things that show up in those relationships. So I will own right now that I have been one of those people who has been too cautious in some cases because I'm afraid of hurting our friendship, even though our friendship is potentially going to be harmed by the things that I'm not speaking up about, which is like now that I say that out loud, like BTF, you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

But it's it's so common, right? It's so common. I was talking with another friend last night about that, about just not wanting to make the other person feel defensive, right? I think part of why it's hard to hear, to hear that feedback sometimes is because I think that a lot of times we inherently know that. We know that things aren't right, but for whatever reason and whatever situation, we're trying to pretend they are. We're trying to cover it up, we're trying to, we're hopeful, right?

SPEAKER_03 16:30

We're in a different stage of change.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

This is really, this is what happens, right? So one friend may be in a place of I am in a stage uh in an action stage of change for my friend, but my friend is in a pre-contemplative stage of change for this particular thing. And I love the idea of both parties being really receptive and open and being able to hold the reality that there is so much love in a friendship that all we want is the best thing for them to support the merging or the coming together of those stages of change. That's the secret sauce.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Well, and the people that you hold so close to your heart know your heart. Know that, you know, I was so so funny. I was, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago. Probably longer than that. I was, oh god, no, probably 15 years ago. I was coming home from Mexico, sir with my family, and I was flying home. And there was a woman on my flight and we were chit-chatting, and she was a TV producer. And it was when there were like when the dating shows, like The Bachelor, those types of things were like kind of becoming big and first starting out. It was before we had all the ones there are now. And she was saying, like, her idea was that siblings, parents, and best friends, it was a show, this was like her show idea, would would pick, they would have, you know, the candidates and they would pick the partner or their family member or friend, and the family member and friend would have to agree. It was like she was saying like that you would marry them, right? But like the whole idea like was based on the premise that like your friends and family really do know so much about you and know who would be a good partner for you. And that sometimes when we're in relationship, we don't see all of that, right? But they can see so clearly, and it was really interesting because that's one of the things I've thought about too, is in my last relationship, my friends and family saw so clearly what I was unable or unwilling to see. You know, and I just thought I I still think that's like a fantastic premise because I really think you would have it would be something that was long-lasting when they got to know them, right? So basically uh an arranged marriage dating show. Oh but not based on religion or wealth or social, right? But just based on really who would be a good match for your person.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Like a heart-centered, heart-driven, really aligned ideally.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

That sounds amazing and funny.

SPEAKER_04 18:58

I don't know why that popped into my head. It makes sense for why it popped into your head because it's about having these conversations that are a little bit hard. And one of the hardest conversations I think for people to have is about something that can feel like a judgment and that you have a you're having a chemical response that is very different, that's basically removing you from reality. So I'm thinking of, you know, falling in love and the fact that we are all basically on drugs of our own making when we're falling in love. So we cannot see things clearly because we're all freaking high for the first six months or so that we're falling in l into romantic love with somebody. And that that's also why we we are constantly seeking something that is not gonna be reproducible with the same person again in most circumstances because of without a substantial amount of effort, because it's just the the chemistry that brings you to falling in love with somebody is just very different than staying in love with somebody. So I think it's there's that. There's also when it's something is happening related to substance substance use, that your perception of reality is very different than the people who are around you. And also if there's mental health stuff where your perception of reality is very different than what's happening around you or what people are seeing around you. Those are the three that really jump to mind. There's probably others as well, including things like with body, body dysmorphia, which is like physical and mental and that kind of thing. But most physical things, for the most part, people under like we have a similar reality, even if we don't have the same sensation sensations. We understand what's to a degree about like this the agreed upon space. And so it's when we have these like differing like realities, honestly, that it can be the hardest to have conversations because it depends on how some how committed somebody is to their current perception of reality that's different from everybody else versus how committed they are to the friendship and to knowing the strength of that. And this came up for me a long time ago, where my first long-term boyfriend was a disaster, like across the board, disaster in so many ways, red flags everywhere that I can see so clearly with time at distance. But my friends at the time only brought this up to my attention when I we would we had like broken up for however many times and it was finally sticking. And one friend in particular, I will never forget where that I'm still friends with, said, You need to bring people around earlier because you don't bring them around until you've already made your mind up about how you feel. And it's not safe to share what you're what you're feeling, like what we see that's a problem. And so I started making a change. I took that very seriously. And I did start bringing people around a lot earlier. And I was like, okay, if I'm into like the third date and I think that I'm gonna, there might be something here, friends need to be involved. Like they need to be meeting friends. And it's not about like, hey, you're gonna be around forever. It's hey, I'm I Thinking this might turn into a thing. And I want people to have the opportunity to say right up front, like, hey, you are not seeing this. And what do you think about this? And I also have this whole like dating thing that I figured out that people used to tell me I needed to write a book about this, how I mastered or figured out online dating. And one of the things that I did was I made sure I dated multiple people at a time before I got really serious or anything with a single person, because I needed to have perspective on the things that people were doing that might be red flags or deal breakers that I might be ignoring and not saying to somebody else, and then blaming myself for and saying, like, oh, this is me. This is a problem with me, or oh, I'm expecting too much, or oh, I'm whatever. I'm the problem. When it's like, but this other person over here is not being a dick about this. So it's clearly not me. This is not an unreasonable expectation for you to be a civil human about this scenario. So it helped to keep things a little bit more clear in my brain because we can't see things clearly. And then we have all of the long-term impacts when we are not able to trust those friendships and those relationships, right? It's all it's like so many of us have this ability to have the conversation only when things get to crisis. Exactly. And at that point, you're like, well, I'm gonna lose this friendship if I don't say anything. So I'm gonna take a chance of saying something in the hopes that I can keep this friendship and that they will understand and forgive. I've got a couple of friends, and Aliza, you're one of them, where I finally got the point that I was like, I'm gonna just start saying the stuff. You're welcome in these situations, and he is not. So you just need to be aware of that. You know, it's like the red, like a reg flag panel, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Like the the partner must go before the panel, right? And then they can figure things out. I mean, it is, it's it's hard, but I think it's like, I don't know, it's more so for me, the more so the focus on being open to accepting that, right? Because we can do all the things and we can bring people around and we can our friends can tell us things, but for us individually, like being open to accepting that maybe this isn't what I thought it was.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

And I feel like like again, ties back into everything, like being open with our bodies to say, like, maybe I think that this is what's happening, but being open to maybe that's not what it is, right? I think in a lot of ways with health stuff too, and I have patients like this all the time, like I'm coming in because of one and two. And it's like, but that's actually not what's happening. It's you know, 57, 58, and 59. You don't even think about. And so I feel like it's just it's the there's a bigger picture with it, right? It's each of our individual ability and willingness and openness to accepting that there are things that we don't see and hearing that and being willing to to pivot and to change paths or trajectories or whatever you want to call it. And I think that's just as important as the people saying, Hey, I need you to see this, or I need you to, I need to tell you that I'm seeing this. We have to be able to say, okay, like I'm open to seeing that too.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

I think that's what's really special about I have been on both ends of the spectrum. We I know what you're saying, Elisa, is this is much bigger than just the, you know, the partnership and uh relationship dynamic. And I hear that to keep with that same example. I've been on both sides of that. I've been on the side of the top being the one in the toxic relationship in my very early years, 19, early 20s, and then 30s and 40s being on the friend side of that. And what's really lovely is that I am finding more relationships are evolving and maturing in a way that we're having this conversation. This is a container that is safe. And your first question was why is that GLP one in my fridge still, you know? And maybe, maybe there's a part of you that's curious about having a conver a really like heart-to-heart conversation around that and or something else, you know. But it's lovely that we have, I think what we're doing right in this moment is looking at how valuable our friendships are. And the value goes beyond the fact that we all bring such really interesting backgrounds and information. It comes back to the fact that we really care about each other. And we we want to step into this container for our own growth, trusting that each of us really loves the other person and would never say something to be spiteful or hurtful, really to say, hey, this is my perspective, maybe this is something you haven't thought of, and being open and willing to play with that idea that might be really out of the line of trajectory that we were originally thinking.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Yeah. What I just wrote down was like shame because I think a lot of it comes back to that, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Whether it's about I should have been doing these things for my body that I haven't, or I've gained weight, or I'm in a partnership with somebody who does things I don't like. So like I think that the big part of that, and I think a big part of why we have difficulty saying that to people, but also difficulty hearing it, is because I do think it brings up shame. I think there is shame around that.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

I very, very specifically remember Jen one time like walking with you in Balboa Park. And as I'm saying, oh, I'm gonna do this, you know, knowing, like knowing that you were like in your mind going, that's a really tough and terrible idea, Lisa. But you didn't say it out loud, right? Because you were trying to be supportive. I knew that, but we get into a place where we're like, hey, well, I'm doing these things that maybe aren't the best for me, and then it's easy to close off because you recognize that, but then you know you're still doing it. You're making a decision that you know isn't in your best interest. And I think that that's where you know we have to let go of the idea of it that it's shameful.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Shame, shame is one of the primary emotions that keeps us, all humans, stuck in that pre-contemplation, contemplation stage. Because that's where the shadows are, that's where the darkness is, and shame is a concealing emotion. We can't look, we don't want to look at it.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

I should say, I remember thinking that like, how did this become my life? I've said that to myself that like, how did this become my life? And there is, there does, it does, it does feel shameful around that, right? But it's like, why? Because I made a a bad decision, because I love somebody that maybe I shouldn't have loved. Like it's not, I didn't do go into it, and none of us do, right? Like, oh, I'm gonna do this thing that I know is bad for me.

SPEAKER_04 28:55

Exactly. And that's right now, I like you. There's even some shame coming up right now with the words you're choosing that that you love somebody you shouldn't have, or you've did something something you shouldn't have. You always made the best choice you could with the information you had at the time. And there is some ownership that people who had different information with for not speaking up out of love for you own. And so every single one of us, like nobody ever, unless you're a sociopath, and even then, they're still making the best choice that they are capable of making with how they are wired and the information they have at the time. So there are very few people in the world who will actively say, I know I should be doing this thing and I'm still gonna do this other thing anyway, even if they know, even if you're in the place, I know I should quit drinking, I know I should be stretching every night, I know I should be whatever that thing might be, writing a gratitude journal. And if you aren't, there is a reason why you aren't, which there's that means that there is some sort of need being that's not being met. There's some sort of barrier, some sort of thing. And so we just need to give ourselves forgiveness, even in how we're talking about things now in retrospect. Would you do something differently today with the information you have today? Yeah. Or can you say you shouldn't have loved him? No, you did love him, and that's just the truth. And did you make some decisions that put him above you? And the other one too. That like, did you make some decisions that put him and other people above yourself? Yes. And it still was the best decision you could have made at the time with the totality of the circumstances and who and where you were at that time. So let's just shift that a little bit. You're right.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

And the GLP one, you know, I think we can we can apply the same thought process about putting other people before yourself and before the things that could be potentially beneficial for you and us. I mean, this is sounding like we're piling on Aliza. And obviously, as I'm as we're talking about this, I'm thinking about myself. I'm thinking about, you know, how this applies to me as well. This is a human experience.

SPEAKER_04 31:05

I also want to just before we wrap this conversation, I want to point out about the fact that it's there are some things that are just not going to be safe to really talk about, or that we need to be willing to have a response that tells people, I appreciate your concern and I love you, and I'm not in the place that I can talk about this right now. And this comes up specifically, not to point it again to you, Elisa, but I know you had this happen to you with some with a good friend. Wait, wait conversations, right? I rem I remember you had somebody who loved you very much and loves you very much. I don't remember exactly which person it was that came to you and said, I just have to say this to you. You need to lose a lot of weight. At one point, somebody said that to you. And it's just sometimes those things that you think you're saying from a place of love and like saying something that somebody needs to hear, you're actually saying something that can be really hurtful too, that is not helpful, that further drives the shame spiral and that might be missing a whole lot of information and just is misinformed. You know, we'll have a conversation at some point about health at every size. It's one of our requested topics and something that is, I know, really important to all of us and is uh one of your passions, Elisa. So I know we'll have a conversation all about that. But there's a lot of things that people are doing to drive weight loss that are really, really counterproductive for overall health and well-being in so many ways that it that drives greater mortality, even. Frequent dieters are dying earlier because of the causes of frequent dieting. And so there's some things that are just not going to be safe to talk about. And so just because we're saying we need to have these hard conversations, it doesn't mean that you just say whatever the hell you're thinking. It also means that we need to be able to respond and say, hey, I appreciate your concern and that's not okay to say, and I don't really welcome this. And perhaps even say, in the future, uh, I don't want you to not talk to me about these things that you might have concerns about. So I don't want to shut this down completely. I just need you to know that this conversation and this approach is not working and it's not helpful. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_03 33:11

It needs to be a two-way street, right? If somebody comes, a relationship is safe when somebody comes with a piece of information and they're willing to receive feedback about that.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:22

If they're just like, I know what the truth is and I think that this is what's best for you, then that's not a safe relationship. And why am I gonna waste my time and make myself vulnerable if they're not willing to have a dialogue that is based on growth and love?

SPEAKER_04 33:37

Maybe that's what the the line is. This what if you're coming with an absolute, you're probably not coming with a safe conversation. If you're coming with curiosity and like, could this be part of it, then it's probably more of a safe conversation than like you need to do this. And that's the answer, period.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Elisa, what just happened? I would love to think, and if you're starting a conversation with, I don't want to hurt your feelings, or I don't want to hurt you, but then don't say it. I think that's the biggest thing is if you know that what you're going to say and how you're going to say it, if you have to preface something with that, shut your mouth and think about it.

unknown 34:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Right. Yes. So that was that was how that started, Jenny. That is that was exactly what was said, but it was prefaced with I don't, I know, I don't want to hurt you.

SPEAKER_04 34:29

But so anytime you say but, you're negating the thing you just said. So it's if you have to say but, then just stop. Yes, correct. And I think that even in the hardest you're gonna about to be an asshole. When you say you know you're about to be an asshole, so just stop yourself. Yeah. I think even in the hardest conversations that can come up with some of the stuff in, especially in midlife, that we can always come from a place of of curiosity and love and know that even if we're gonna say something that is a hard thing, that we might be wrong. And I'm thinking specifically of one of the most difficult conversations I've had to have and some of the things that I had to work through and a decision I made with a friend who was absolutely in crisis. I'm not gonna give any specific details because she sometimes listens to this podcast and I do respect her privacy. And what she went through is something that many people go through in midlife that is not something that people talk about enough. And that is having had a mental health crisis that was beyond anxiety and depression. And that I had to recognize that I wasn't understanding what was happening in her brain and that I needed to meet her with uh, I don't know what is happening. I literally said to her, I I don't know exactly what's happening, but I know you're not safe. Either what is happening in right now that you're experiencing, if it is real, then you are in danger. And if it is not real, you are in danger. It is just a different thing that is dangerous. And we just that's one thing I can say with certainty. You are in danger one way or the other. And I'm curious about which thing it is that is putting you in danger. And I want to get you help. And I had to make some decisions that I had to recognize that I could lose the friendship over, but that I was gonna lose the friendship if I didn't do them anyway, because of what was happening to her. And if we can have those kind of conversations at an earlier stage, I wonder how much we can support each other greater. I mean, even a conversation that might be yeah, weight does contribute to some of the ailments that we experience when we are in midlife. We we can't say that it doesn't contribute at all. Like some of the people in the Health at Every Size movement, there's some people who went too far, I think, with just not acknowledging and accepting that there are some things that are weight related. And not everything that you think is weight related is. And so how we can still even have curiosity about that. How much do you think this might be part of it? And I think there are ways to be curious, passionate, loving conversations that can allow us space to talk about hard things that aren't coming from an absolute or a directive or that puts us on the defensive because then we're having to confront our shame and defend our choices that we clearly made when we were doing the best that we could. And even if we're starting to doubt those questions, we still have to protect our past selves and the decisions that we did make that got us there to a degree.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

And maybe an approach to that is also like, you know, you say like being curious with that other person, but also with ourselves. Right. So, like for me, like, okay, maybe that's what I'm gonna be thinking about, like when I'm walking laps in the pool, is like being curious with myself about that's a lot of what I've been doing lately, right? Is like thinking and having honestly having some aha moments, you know, why I have done certain things and why I have brought certain things into my life. You know, that was like a big moment for me um when I was talking with one of my teachers um last week or the week before was oh, I I need to feel important. I don't want to be discarded. And that's a big piece of why I take care of everything. I do everything perfectly. I do the house and the schedule and the finances and the trips and everything, right? I plan it because I'm doing everything so perfectly. How could you possibly not need me? It's like a way that we make ourselves feel worthy in a way. Or I shouldn't say we, it's a way that I made myself. You could say we. I could feel worthy.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

So and curiosity is it's the light that helps to dissolve the shame. And when the shame starts to dismantle, it doesn't have that vice grip on us anymore. And we just start to flow through the stages of change. It's just about where am I right now? There doesn't need to be a judgment, there doesn't need to be a harshness about it. It's just the reality of where I am. And if I can bring curiosity and that growth mindset to that, shame has no place. It's not being fed by the darkness. Oh, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 39:19

I think that another thing that it really brings when you are curious, it is almost like a message to the universe or God or whatever it is that your spiritual connection is, that you are available and willing to get new information, and that you're willing to see something that maybe hadn't been considered before, whether it's being presented by a friend or if it's there and it's present and just waiting for the opportunity in your own mind to jump to the forefront. I think curiosity just allows new things to become available to us in all sorts of places. Karen, I want to ask you really quickly, just because you've said stages of change so many times, can you just rattle off what the stages of change are for people? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:03

Yeah. So pre-contemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, and then maintenance maintenance. And then it's a cycle oftentimes that we go through for many, many things before it becomes something that's more sustainable, that we can create a sustainable process or maybe it's a one-time thing. But the that moving from stage of change to stage of change is it's a very individual process. And I think in bringing curiosity to that is really helpful. As a matter of fact, that's actually that the intervention that's most commonly used in helping people to move through those stages of change is called motivational interviewing. And curiosity is a big part of that. So when we can do that with ourselves and have that openness, solutions just start like what you were saying, didn't like they just appear.

SPEAKER_04 40:51

Yeah. And curiosity, I think, is one of the foundations for connection to connection with ourselves, connection with the world around us, connection with each other is being curious about others' experiences, others' opinions, others, whatever that can then change our own personal experience and also help us just know somebody in a deeper way than if we're coming with an answer. When we come with an answer, there's no growth. There's no growth opportunities, there's no chance to connect. You but you're establishing, I know more than you. This is what our relationship is. It is not a give and take. We don't have things to contribute to each other. I have something to give and you need to receive. And it is trying to establish a power dynamic that is just not great.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

That's one of the things I love, Jen, about when you respond to messages that I send in our group chat that are like, you know, I've got this big bomb of thing that is happening for me. And you're like, tell me more about, you know, whatever it is to help you understand. Because when someone's not in the middle of the issue, it's not as clear to them what the big deal is, right? But I can feel that you're wanting to meet me there and you're wanting to help support me through whatever that is. So I just wanted to honor, and Elisa, of course, same, right? Like I just wanted to honor how um I see that in our friendship. And it and it is so valuable.

SPEAKER_04 42:12

I thank you for recognizing that and pointing out because that's also going to reinforce that I continue to do that. I know part of it is that I recognize when I'm like having when you're having something, I am creating a story in my head about what it is. And I'm like, hmm, this might be not the real thing that's happening. This is my story. I don't know this. This is her story. And before I respond with a solution that you might be looking for, I'm not, I need to understand what the actual story is. So all right. I felt like I had 10,000 more things to say, as I usually do. And I'm going to suggest that we wrap our conversation for today and pick up maybe with some other topics that are just swirling from this in our next time we talk.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Can I show you guys something funny before we go? Well, it's not kind of funny. But you know, I we all said, okay, when something comes to mind, like write it down so we don't forget. This is my ADHD list from today.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

Just just so everyone That's funny that that's right. It's ADHD list. I'll have to show you mine sometime. I don't have one today.

SPEAKER_04 43:12

Mine's just all over. I have one here that I've got a couple of notes because the reason this is being said is because I had actually a really important point that never came back to me that we've probably edited it out because I got so lost and sidetracked, but that I have no idea what I was saying. So I we also have something written down, but my ADHD is that. Plus, I'm you know always knitting when we talk so that I not get distracted by writing down a whole bunch of things or random things popping up. So all right. Well, I'm glad that it's that even the non-ADHD, or at least non-official ADHD in our group still has that. So hopefully somebody feels seen with who got who got the video, because those those who are doing the audio only, Aliza was sharing this lots of colors and stars and hearts, all beautifully organized. Yes, because even yeah, her ADHD is still very. Organized and not pretty pretty. Because, you know, everything with Elisa is that way. She wakes up and looks like she's ready to walk the runaway and she doodles notes and it's still gorgeous. And she could hang it on a wall someplace. So, anyway, we're still gonna wrap for today. Love you, ladies. Thanks so much for our conversation today.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

Bye. See you next time. If our messy is your kind of messy, we'd love for you to rate, review, and follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

We'd also love to know what's on your mind. If you were to join us, what would we be talking about? Email us at messy midlifepodcast at gmail.com or message us on Instagram or TikTok.