Gross To Net
Gross to Net is a podcast about what people actually optimize for in business and life and what they're left with after all the costs are tallied. Most business podcasts ask "How did you succeed?" We ask "What did it cost?" Not just money. Time, health, relationships, meaning.
We talk to founders, investors, and operators about the real math: what went in, what came out, and whether they'd make the same tradeoffs again. No highlight reels. No sanitized success stories. Just honest conversations about what you're actually building and why.
Also, we are on a quest to eventually learn the meaning of life.
Gross To Net
Ep. 2 - Building Authority with Ellen Donnelly | Gross To Net
I talked to Ellen Donnelly (Ellen from The Ask) about making the transition from recruiting into coaching entrepreneurs. We talk about why people even start businesses and I get some free, on-air consulting.
Ellen turns the tables back on me but then I turn them back again. My, my, how the turntables have...turned?
I recommend subscribing to Ellen's newsletter, The Ask, at https://the-ask.uk/newsletter
Welcome everybody to Gross 10 Net, the podcast where we talk about the state of work, life, and happiness and explore how to make it all work better. I am really excited. For my guest today. So without further ado, I'm your host, George Milton. And today I'm talking with, Ellen Donnelly, who runs Ellen from the Ask. Welcome Ellen.
Ellen:Hi, George. It's so good to be here with you today.
George Milton:It is really nice to be talking with you again. we chatted once. We were trying to figure out when it was. We'll just say it was a couple months back. And you write.
Ellen:the passage of time.
George Milton:I am trying to deny the passage of time. It's so hard. Ellen, tell us a little bit about, your writing and your coaching and stuff like that. I don't wanna, I don't wanna screw up your bio, so you'll do it better.
Ellen:I am Ellen Donnelly, and I write a newsletter recently renamed Ellen from the ask. my business is called the Ask and I set that up in 2020. the mission behind the ask is. What do people wanna do with their lives and their careers? And that's comes down to questions. Coaching is about good question asking. And I came into this field from a history of startup recruitment. So lots of asking people questions, but recruiters always had an agenda really, they wanted you. I wanted people to take the job that I had available, and I knew from my own firsthand experience and those of my peers and many people I've met over the years, just how few people had good answers to the question of what to do with work. And so I've been on a mission to help people put frameworks and make sense of the options available, specifically the options that come into the like more entrepreneurial fields. And so over time, I really call myself a business coach.'cause most people. Choose entrepreneurship, self-employment, and then they want support making that happen. I write about the future of work being really a very entrepreneurial place. We are in that future today because some people are just really responding to the options that are available. So I know we're gonna talk more about that today.
George Milton:Yeah. Awesome. A great intro and way better than I would've done, but I, I do, I do enjoy reading your writing. I like your writing around the future of work being entrepreneurship. let's just jump right into it. I'm super fascinated with the future of work. specifically one of the reasons that I started this podcast and started my, substack and all of that sort of stuff, what I'm calling the gross to net universe, which is very small universe right now, but the whole reason that I started that was because it seems like things are, have just been rapidly changing and there are a lot of people in a lot of businesses Industries and governments don't really know what to do with where we are today, whether that has to do with ai, displacing jobs or people being unhappy with what they're doing. I'm fascinated with the questions that you asked people, We talked about this previously, but you came into this from being a recruiter, so you were trying to ask people. what kind of questions did you ask people, like what they wanted to do, what their skills were what lights them up? What were you trying to figure out?
Ellen:I wish it was more what lights you up? That was really what I thought people should be asking themselves, and that's the question we need to try and identify for ourselves, which is quite a complex question because you're always trying to fit, what do you wanna do with what's available? What's a marketable opportunity that people will buy, whether. Buying is the context of an employer, willing to pay the salary that you're worth, or whether that context is a customer who wants to buy that skill is like your client. But yeah, as a recruiter, I mean I did probably four or five different recruitment jobs and they all had different. Some of which were agency, some of which were in-house, some of which were like startup founder recruitment almost. But the questions are always, what have you done for a good portion of your working life? what are you better than your peers are? Where do you see your future? what opportunities excite you? What problems do you feel uniquely qualified to tackle? What transferable skills do you bring into this job or whatever? So nowadays, when I coach people, I help them really find answers to those questions so that they can build. path of their own, really, whether that path looks like building a scalable business or whether that path looks like piecing together different things from their background and their interest set to have more of a portfolio career, whether that looks like trying to land a job. Although these days, if somebody's desperate for a job and wants career coaching for attaining a certain position in the job market, I'd send them to a different coach.'cause my skillset has become much more okay, let's build your own thing.
George Milton:Yeah. I'm a big fan of let's build your own thing. You talk a lot about, and your, your a you have a course around authority with capital A and, authority letters. So can,'cause I think that this all has to do with and I'm probably putting some words in your mouth, but the way that I understand it is that like building authority, the way that you talk about it is like, what is it that you're good at that you don't really realize you're good at?
Ellen:think that's a good starting point to look inwards and say, what am I good at? What am I. do I find easy, the reality is that authority is like an external exercise. It's how do other people perceive me? And my whole thesis is that the world of work is becoming so much more entrepreneurial. What I mean by that is more and more people are leaving the nine to five, whether voluntarily like I choose to. Do my own thing. Thank you very much. The barriers to entry have come right down and the risks feels smaller, and I'm gonna choose this life of my own terms, or in many cases it's happening because there are less jobs available. The job market has been squeezed. There have been many cuts in that department from AI and other factors, a lot of people are finding themselves working solo, figuring out how to make ends meet. if you can step into the position of an authority in something really specific, you are going to find that opportunities are easier to come by or easier to secure And B, if you go after those opportunities yourself, you're more likely to be chosen if you are seen as like the go-to person in that field. there are many exercises that you can do to figure out what you are an authority in, I also tell my clients like it's a journey. We can be an aspirational authority in something which give it a month, two months, three months, five years. The decision that you make now has time to compound and build, the experiences will. In total become the thing that you're an authority in. But what a lot of people are afraid of is choosing the wrong thing or, saying that they're good at something when they're still learning and then they stay in this kind of generalist brand for too long and then they never quite get the opportunity to build that domain authority. And from a URL perspective online.
George Milton:What do you think, do you think that people are bad? do you think that people are generally like okay at recognizing where they already have authority or do people that you coach have a hard time with that?
Ellen:There's such thing as the curse of knowledge, right? When you're so close to something that you know how to do really well, or that you've got a lot of experience in, sometimes we don't recognize that is a skill or a piece of knowledge other people don't have. We take that for granted. Like everyone can do that, or everyone knows that, and actually they don't. And it could take somebody else to really call that out of them. in other instances, some people. Overinflate their authority. And so I don't think there's everyone does this. It's more trying to find that equilibrium between, we need to. Prop ourselves up. We need to put our best foot forward. And sometimes that does involve a little bit of like finding good words to describe what you've done, telling great stories. That's different than lying. I don't ever tell a client Oh that you've worked with a hundred clients when you haven't, definitely not. But you can do is tell a story about one client you worked with, right? It's very personality dependent on how much people like lean into that authority or not, I knew it would be slightly controversial. Like I knew it would get some people leaning in and like a curious, Ooh, I wanna be an authority. And some people leaning out. I don't wanna be an authority. Authority is a bad idea. I'm not necessarily the coach for everybody who wants to be self-employed. I'm the coach for the people who want to be known for something and build a body of work and stand out really. And that may not be for every single person.
George Milton:Yeah. I love it. you talk about the communication aspect, and I think that is, crucial across so many domains, like, clearly communicating your ideas or your experience. in my last, 20 years, of various types of work, which, now has included running my own company for 13 years, it is almost impossible to communicate what is in your head, to get what is in my head, into your head the same way that it's in my head. It's like an impossible task. ellen from the Ask and some of the other newsletters that you've put together, it's all like, I want to talk about your views on social media and AI and all of these things too. I don't know how we're gonna squeeze it all in, but, a lot of what you're doing is this long form. Content, which I'm incredibly into, and I have avoided social media. The last time I was really into social media was Live Journal, which really dates me, but it was like long form content. Live Journal was basically like substack, from way back in the day. But, I hope that nobody can find my live journal from like circa 2002 because it was angsty like college. Like talk to me a little bit about what it is you love about long form content and how that fits in with authority.
Ellen:Yeah, great question. Building on, from what I was just saying, to be an authority requires. Choosing something that you're going to be an expert in and you want to stand out as the go-to in that space. I believe that long form writing is a great calling card for that kind of work, knowledge work where you're selling your time, you're selling your way of thinking to a client, most likely. Whether you're a strategist, a consultant, a coach, a trainer. most of the kind of knowledge based work can be commoditized, but when you're an authority, you are often known for. Putting ideas into the world, sharpening, perspectives around the field that you operate in, and long form writing is the best way to put those ideas across to your point, George, like it's so hard to communicate what you believe, and what you're trying to portray, especially when you reduce the format down to 140 characters. I know that's like an outdated concept of the tweet now, but even so short form. social media content really relies on click baits and hooks to get people's attention. And some of those ideas that really require you to be an authority and have depth of insight are not translatable to these short form that we've become so accustomed to. dancing reel, for example, is not right for many businesses in the way they wanna sell their time and their services. Long form writing is brilliant. In many ways. It forces you to think clearly. If you can't write 2000 plus words about your domain, maybe you aren't quite there yet in terms of what you're offering. I would hope that you could write 10,000 words, right? The idea of the internet, you can reach audiences globally. Writing is one of those ways to do that, whether it's through Substack or whichever platform you wanna use. Live Journal, maybe not a bit more defunct, but
George Milton:I wanna bring it back. That's what I think my contribution could be.
Ellen:That's what the episode title is, bringing back
George Milton:Nobody will listen to it if I title it that.
Ellen:It's
George Milton:it.
Ellen:Writing online. Yeah. We maybe pay a price in some ways to use these platforms, but. We don't need a video recording podcast studio set up, right? We don't need graphic design. So that's why I love long form writing. And realistically, that's how I've built my business. I'm in year five of money on my own terms, on my own, and having a fully booked coaching practice. And the only thing I've been consistent with is long form writing. So that's why I preach it. And again, not everybody wants to do it. So if you don't, then there are other ways to get attention and stand out. But for those people who want to. deliver work that they find meaningful to solve complex problems, and they need a client base who care about their way of thinking. I think the act of long form writing, whether you just do a few hero pieces as I call them, or whether you publish something weekly, is a really great way to build that, demand.
George Milton:Yeah. I think you're a very good long form writer, I would imagine you might also be a journaler. are you a journaler as well?
Ellen:Yeah, I have a big, box at home with a padlock on it full of my journals from the years, and it's so funny reading like little Ellens. Little quips about life from age eight onwards. And as a person, I don't think I've changed that much. My language and writing has become more sophisticated, but the things I care about and the way I feel about the world is quite similar. So yeah, big journaler, I would love to be more consistent, but. I write when there's something to say, put it that way, or like morning pages. I've done that on and off. the Julia Cameron, of the artist's way is to write three pages of just like unconscious thoughts in the morning. The first thing you do when you get up and whenever I've been doing those consistently things really shift in my life. So I know a lot of people believe in that as well.
George Milton:Yeah, I think that's great. I'm also like fairly inconsistent with my journaling. Like I'll get on a kick. And do it really regularly. And journaling that nobody is gonna read but me,
Ellen:Right.
George Milton:Not like I'm doing it. And I do all of that. I've tried over the years to do personal journaling on various platforms. Like I'm a big, I'm a big notion guy. I love notion. We don't use it at work, but I personally have all of my shit in Notion. And I can't do my personal journaling over there. Like I just have to have a pen and a piece of paper to do it. it really helps me in terms of solving a problem, right? Like I will sometimes have a hard time expressing, like I said, getting the thought out or working my way through a tough problem. And I'll find that, if I sit there and scribble. 10, 20 pages about it, I will have an answer or a set of answers or a whole new set of questions. Maybe I realize, 10 pages then that I was asking just totally the wrong question or was trying to answer the wrong question. we've tried to get people within our organization to do more journaling as well. It's like, that's a harder thing to do at work.'cause you're like, what does that have to do with work? It has a lot to do with everything I think, right. Being able to work through, problems like that.
Ellen:I love that as a management theory. Just like equipping people with the tools to solve their own problems and not making it have to look like a neat process. You can go sit in a corner and it'll look like you are procrastinating, but actually that's the thinking time is the work.
George Milton:You talked about, I feel like you mentioned something about. Coaching be having a little bit of a therapy aspect to it, which I imagine is probably true. Management has a pretty big therapy aspect to it as well, where like you're really just trying to figure out how to get humans out of their way, right? Like where you have somebody who you're like, oh, this person is brilliant at QA or logistics, or a brilliant sales person or brilliant marketer, or whatever. And you kind of see for, you're kind of seeing that they're stepping on their own toes pretty frequently, and you're like, oh, you're, you're, I can see what it is you're amazing at. How do I get you to see it? I can't just tell you that I. I would imagine you probably run into that sometimes when you're coaching, when you're like, I can't just tell can, or maybe you can you just tell somebody, this is what you're good at. Here it is. I can clearly see it with you. Not with everybody, but with you. I see what it is.
Ellen:I think what's coming to mind for me is the number of coaching sessions I have where it feels like a client is saying, I can't just do this, or is hard, or this is where I'm seeing fear. This is what's coming up for me. And it feels a bit like we're at loggerheads, not that we are arguing, Can I do this? And I'm like, yes, you can. Here's how. Okay, but then this is the now the new fear. Okay? And then this is how you'll work that out. And then, okay, but then what? normally what happens with entrepreneurs is they have that internal dialogue on their own, and then they get disheartened because they don't have somebody else holding them to a higher standard for themselves. They don't push through those fears because there's nobody on the other side to say, Hey, I promise you it'll be okay over here. This is what's next. A lot of coaching sessions are a bit like that. They're like, this is how it can look for your business. This is a path I've tried on, or I've helped people tread, can we do this? Can you commit to this? And then they might say, why I'm doubtful. And then we'll have a conversation about that. And then the next thing is Yeah. shining a light on their greatness and what is possible. So it's a lot of motivational stuff as well as the practical stuff for sure.
George Milton:I think there's so much value In having like a specific coach in specific things. I don't think there's value in all coaches in every domain ever, I do think that I remember I was a personal trainer, you know, many years ago, and it was like most of that job was just knowing that somebody was waiting for you at the gym and you had paid for them to be there. It wasn't like there's just not that much specific knowledge that you need for most people it's just like, Hey, if you move for an hour, then it's better than if you don't. That's the key lesson. most people who get a personal trainer just need to move. They just, like, you could just walk on a treadmill for an hour and do some stretching. You don't need a complicated program or nutrition plan. But the fact that there was somebody like waiting for them and the fact that was that there was somebody who was reminding them every day that they could do it, that it wasn't rocket science and like that seemed to be the most valuable thing and it could be life changing. Just to have somebody that you're paying to like, to show up and say, you can do it. And here's, here's some tools. Like it doesn't have to be, I think in the world of entrepreneurship, in the world of fitness, it's so complicated. It's so overly complicated for people. That's, that was one of the reasons I kind of like didn't wanna stay in that industry, is just the, there's so much money around making it complicated. And I think that that's, that's true in a lot of cases, but just like making it simple, like having somebody who can shield out all of this other shit.
Ellen:Because you're not gonna drown out all those other voices. They're still gonna exist telling you perhaps contradictory information, whether it's in exercise, nutrition, or entrepreneurship. But if you've paid for a mentor and you trust that mentor you like the results they have, you trust them as a person, you allow yourself to shut off those other voices and say, look, I'm just gonna listen to this voice. Not to say you can't absorb other stuff, but when it comes down to a decision point, then you go, okay, I'm gonna take this to a mentor and go, yeah. And I just had this experience with a nutritionist, like I've been bombarded with all sorts of advice over the years that I've been half listening to. And it's only when I invested in somebody dedicated to my journey that I was actually able to get results in the areas that I. Thought I could just string it together on my own. And like I always say to my clients, yes, you're investing in me. Like at the end of the day, I have a business and you're paying me to run my business, but you're investing in you. Like choosing me is choosing to put yourself in a position to achieve your goals. I'm just like a conduit for that. So are you ready to invest in you really is the question.
George Milton:I am. sold.
Ellen:I just got a client on this call.
George Milton:Yeah. I wanna talk a little bit about, the future of work being entrepreneur driven. And I know this is a meaty, meaty, meaty subject. So may maybe let me ask you first. How you think, how you're thinking about ai, how you're thinking about how people are thinking about ai.
Ellen:I'm thinking about how people are thinking about ai, I see there being these different camps, right? Some people are all in they've really gone to town with like the learning curve and committed to that. And I don't mean just people who use chapter PT for every question under the sun,'cause I'm becoming one of those terrible people. some people have really gone how do I build something that. I could not have built before. And there's this league of businesses who are competing to be the closest to that one person, billion dollar company. So there's this table we could link, which shows the headcount versus revenue of companies driven by ai. And it's like there are certain people who've really said this is the future. I'm gonna double down. And I've been watching certain entrepreneurs who were doing something and have pivoted. everything has become AI centric. And I think it's like any technological wave. I was used to work in tech recruitment. We'd detach the word the wave to the thing for a bit, like it was like digital roles and then it was. Cloud and then it was SaaS and then it's like everything is just cloud and SaaS and digital, right? And at some point everything will just be ai. But right now we're attaching that label to show that we're like in the know and that we're using it, and then one day it will just become second place. There are obviously so many people or industries that are feeling really adverse to it, in the music industry, for example, they're so aware of copyright and like ripping off the artists that they represent, and therefore, as a company they're saying, we are not using AI internally. we stand against it. so I think we're at this turning point where there will become. The old and the new, and entrepreneurs who work for themselves get to have that choice, but that choice can be super overwhelming when you don't have a boss telling you what to do, and you don't necessarily have time to upskill, in every way. that's why I am, personally like it into my own workflow so I can figure out what I find valuable. And then I'm putting it into my programs as pieces here and there. over time it's I know I have to keep moving in that direction if I wanna stay ahead of the curve, which has always been like my mo. So I dunno if I really answered your big question,
George Milton:No, I wasn't really looking for an answer as much as a conversation around it because I think you, you said that you've become one of those awful people who uses chat, GPT to ask. I don't think, like I feel that way too, and I'm like, somebody's like, oh, let me ask Chad, GBT, like, I feel some, something about that. And I don't really know why. I think that one of the reactions that I have to everybody having chat GBT on their phone is that everybody all of a sudden feels like an expert at everything, which is also, the good part of it you can get deeper and more thorough than a Google search, which is, you know, let me Google it has now been replaced by, let me chat. There's a lot of the in acidification of everything, right? Like Yeah. And I think that I've read, you write that word a handful of times, maybe talking about social media, but there's certainly like an in acidification of AI where you've got a lot of stuff that comes out that's just kind of garbage, where you've got a lot of people trying to build authority around some junk that like Chad, GBT just spit out for them. Yeah,
Ellen:Yeah, I wanna clarify for my own reputation at this point that using it for like, how do I get this stain out of my carpet?
George Milton:what do I do?
Ellen:in this niche situation that, yeah, previously I might have watched a YouTube video or called my mom and I'm. Let me just do this thing which is quicker, but when it comes to, yeah, building authority, writing, creating something the rules and like frameworks I have around it are so different. because I think that's the one thing that we have to retain ownership of. If we want to know our thoughts, stand out, be unique. Not to say I don't use it for speed sometimes or edits, but I don't wanna start there, put it that way.
George Milton:No, I agree with that. There's a ton happening there. The ability for somebody to be a lightweight entrepreneur is definitely increased a lot. I spent a little bit of time in the music industry many years ago and it drastically changed when all of a sudden you could get pro tools or something and a laptop and have some plugins and have a recording studio at your house for less than$5,000. And that happened in the nineties, Where you could all of a sudden go from it costs$200,000 to make an album to, it costs$10,000 to make an album. And so then you had a lot of people, more people making albums and now there's kind of that thing too where it's like there are all of these digital tools and like if you are a content creator, You just have to know that like, hey, the whole world is connected via the internet and via these social platforms, and you have access to just way more than you used to have access to. So like. It's easier to be an entrepreneur than it ever has been. And you, you've made the statement that the world needs more entrepreneurs, that that's the future of work. Can we talk about that a little bit? what do you mean by that? What do you mean that the world needs more entrepreneurs?
Ellen:I'm not sure if I would have used those exact words,
George Milton:Okay. Tell me the exact words.
Ellen:I
George Milton:I think it's
Ellen:the world is becoming more entrepreneurial. Point blank. Whether I think that's a good thing or not actually is beside the point, is more of an observation. more people are having to fend for themselves in the world of work without the infrastructure of a job, a pension, a secure paycheck, colleagues, life insurance.
George Milton:the 30 year career doesn't really exist anymore for the most part.
Ellen:Exactly. Almost nobody has those kind of securities. There's like what's happening to jobs, and then there's like what's happening in entrepreneurship and then there's what are the implications of that? And I know from a zeitgeist perspective that entrepreneurship has been hyped for a long time, for probably five, 10 plus years now. and with the rise of social media and the creator economy sort of s. Booming around 20 20, 20 21. That just threw into like the public perception, all these different types of entrepreneurs. No longer was it just the Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk who are entrepreneurs. It's like your 16-year-old daughter on TikTok making bank because of the way that TikTok now rewards watch time. So is that an entrepreneur? But, the definitions of entrepreneurship are like very vague and broad. And I've done some research into like why that is, and it's not particularly interesting, but it's basically if you're making money without, a paycheck coming to you just for turning up to a job, you are going out there and creating opportunities. You're creating a demand for something, whether that is a service or a product in a way that's an entrepreneurial path, and more and more people are choosing that path over the. Kind of corporate path because of, like you said, there's less of those kind of stable careers available. But also we've just changed our definitions of what kind of work we want to do and what kind of work we're willing to do. And that's the shift that I've been seeing. if you look at the data. Like two thirds of people are now creating some kind of self-employed income. We just don't all realize it because the shades of gray are so varied. There are so many different ways that can look. And so entrepreneurship is a word I'm holding onto because it's a broad definition people's perception of it will need to shift in order to recognize that. Like there may become a day where everyone has to think like an entrepreneur and figure out how to make work like an entrepreneur has had to do. And so that's the movement that I see happening, and I want to be a source of support for it. I don't necessarily think it's net positive, for lots of reasons.
George Milton:Yeah. I got a lot of thoughts there on that too. one of the things that we talked about, the last time that we talked and didn't record it unfortunately, but I think that you kind of rage against hustle culture in some of the ways that I do as well. Yeah. I think that you mentioned the rising popularity of entrepreneurship, and I think it kind of goes along with Shark Tank everything, right? Shark Tank kind of made that popular, right? We're like really, idolizing these people who have an idea, who want to go be, millionaires with their idea, or their popcorn brand, or their hot sauce brand, or, whatever it is, right? In my view at least, and I think for a lot of people this rise in hustle culture, which I don't even think I have to define for the listener, Just the rise and grind type of get out there and get it. And like you can, we can all be millionaires. You could be a millionaire. You just have to work hard enough. and I kind of hate that just'cause I don't think, I mean one of the, one of the whole reasons that I started this whole thing was to talk about, like, to ask the question. Are you happy at all? Like, are you do you feel good? You know, do you, do you like wake up in the morning and feel good? Do you sleep well at night? You know, like all of these sorts of things. Maybe tell me, I guess tell what do you think about hustle culture, gi, gimme some of your thoughts on that as it regard, as it relates to entrepreneurship.
Ellen:I'd say that Hasa culture received a bad rep in the last few years, didn't it? When we became much more conscious of like burnout and, longevity and these kind of like virtuous things that we should aim for, like balance and not burning ourselves to the ground, which I agree with. And I think that culture and entrepreneurship became synonymous as though there's only one way to be successful as an entrepreneur, and that has to look like. Of people who. want to make something of themselves, who want to really achieve something that 99.9% of people don't. There is a degree of perspiration and luck, and I think what sometimes gets missed out of these conversations is like. Opportunities that get handed to people that they didn't have to hustle for, whether it was connections or beauty or existing wealth or, a family business that got handed down. Some people genuinely do just hustle their way to get to call it the top whatever the top means, and whether or not they get there and feel fulfilled. That's another question and that's a question I have the privilege of helping people answer what's all this for? I've achieved all this, but actually am I happy to your question? And so I definitely don't. a proponent of hustling for hustling's sake, but I am a proponent of working harder than maybe you did in a previous season of life because you are not quite where you wanna be. And actually you can get to the other side and be like, look back and say, wow, I'm really proud of what I've achieved. But doing that with. Cognizance of what you're trying to build and what you want out of life. Because if you just do that because that's the treadmill and you think that's what it's gonna make you happy and you haven't really sat back to ask some of those hard questions, it is a bit of a recipe for an unfulfilled life. The final thing I'll say about hustle culture is I think it also depends on the kind of entrepreneurship. The kind of path that you're going down. So in the more VC backed success at all costs, every portfolio has only one winner. Are you gonna be the winner or are you gonna, the money kind of thing. Founders of those types of businesses do in reality, have to hustle. they choose to take investment. They choose to work a certain way, by contrast. Entrepreneurs who work for themselves, who don't have investment, who are self-funded and are profitable business owners or hopefully profitable, they can choose to go at a different pace. success for them might look like having just enough at the end of the month to pay a bid into savings and, have go on holiday twice a year. But that's where they draw the line. And I think I'm closer to that. Like I've thought about what it would mean to take investment and build something bigger and to really go hard or go home for want of a better phrase.
George Milton:Don't do it.
Ellen:Always come back to I value my freedom too much. Like last week I was in New Yorker for four days and I went really last minute because I can, and yeah, my productivity's gonna drop for a few days or week. But then like I choose to have the reward of working for myself,
George Milton:yeah. I love that. Well, I do wanna take a quick break, but you posed the question, and when we come back, we're gonna answer the question, what's it all for? So. An easy one be right back. Stay tuned. And we're back. Okay. I promised we were gonna answer, the biggest question in life. The biggest question in the universe. What's it all for? Ellen. Ellen, what's it all for?
Ellen:You're asking me some easy questions today, George. I'm appreciative. So
George Milton:no problem.
Ellen:It,
George Milton:What's it all mean?
Ellen:No, let's go down a level of hard hardness and we can
George Milton:That's fine.
Ellen:What, why do people run companies? Why do we choose to go after something, right? I guess like entrepreneurship in its more pure form definition is creating something out of nothing and building something that doesn't exist. And maybe I can turn the tables a little bit on you'cause you've done that.
George Milton:Yeah, Dare you.
Ellen:Why did you decide to build the brand that you built?
George Milton:I mean for me and for my partner Aaron, it was about, it was really about creating, like, it was about creating, it was about the act of creation. So it was that. Plus this idea of not answering to this corporate ladder, right? Which is, I think part of my stance on, hey, if you're an entrepreneur and part of the reason that you got into that was freedom and you go get investors, you just hired more bosses, right? So like, if the thing that you want is freedom, to be creative, then that's kind of. That's where I think a lot of entrepreneurs, especially early stage entrepreneurs that I've met, have this. They want to create, they want their life to be what they want it to be, they don't want to say, Hey, I'm shoveling over 40 to 60 hours. A week right there, there's this concept, and I read this somewhere else, so I'm not inventing this, but there's this concept of like intensity versus density. And like when you go, most times when you go work, as a W2 employee. You're getting paid for density, right? Like you're getting paid for the hours that you're putting in. even in a role where your output, right? Maybe like you're a sales role or your, something like that where your output is the most valuable thing. You're still getting paid for a certain amount of like density, like calendar density, whereas like as an entrepreneur, you can kind of like this idea of like gross to net, right? Getting out, you can decide what the quality of your input is, right? So like if I have a work week and I say, okay, I can have a really intense 10 to 15 hours and I'm really gonna spend a lot of time like frameworking. What I need to put into that 15 hours and what I'm gonna get out of it. I can often get more out of a session like that or a week like that than a lot of people can get out of like a month of just like punching a clock at a job. I could talk about that for hours.
Ellen:a fan of Kay. He's work around the 10 K, 10 K work. Do you know about that?
George Milton:No tell.
Ellen:So Khe is a kind of productivity guy that he's an example of somebody who's recently pivoted more into the AI space. But this idea of putting time into quadrants in terms of how much impact you can have per hour. It's is this a 10 k, like$10,000 hour or is this like a 10 hour? And then there's a hundred, and then 1000 point being some pre-thought and framing, you can. have a$10,000 hour, like from a value creation perspective. And the reason being is that you can like, have leverage when you're an entrepreneur. Leverage can come in the form of team, you can outsource stuff so your time becomes double or triple or whatever in the form of code, in the form of media. That's the kind of leverage I talk about with long-form writing, in the form of influence and so on. So point being. Intensity in, in entrepreneurship is, a way to see more created as a result of the time that you put in. And that's very rewarding. And I think your example of starting a company for the act of creation in and of itself was a towards driver. You were driven towards the act of creating, but you also had a drive away from And that's like an away from driver. And in life, if we have. Drivers towards things. We tend to be more fulfilled than if we solely have drivers away from, and that's not to go back in our conversation, but it is one of the things that when it comes to the future of work being entrepreneurship, what pains me is when the sole driver people have for entrepreneurship is the driver away from destitution because they don't have a job. would sooner see more entrepreneurs driven towards. Whatever that is, and this is what we're trying to unearth here. Like is it for? I think as humans, I do think we are hardwired to want to work. I don't necessarily mean the way that work is today like, but to put our skills and our talents into something and see something better as a result or see something change to impact somebody's life or to create something from scratch, whether that's to use our hands or to use our brains. There are different types of intelligence. actually can't remember them all off the top of my head. But apparently like everybody has a different like mode of intelligence. some of us are very intelligent when it comes to like how things fit together. You can see it from early childhood, like the kid who can build stuff out of let go. Some people are driven to social intelligence, like the intelligence of how to interact with others or with animals or with nature or with ideas or words or whatever. I do think. is like the extreme sport of work, and it's for people who love doing the thing that they're good at and they want to do that at scale or they want to make the world better. Then I think there are the entrepreneurs who are driven away from certain bad things, like they don't wanna be insignificant or they don't wanna feel like a loser. And certain entrepreneurs want to prove everybody wrong in their life and go really hard and hustle towards something that maybe is actually driven from a pace of pain. And that's something that therapists who work with entrepreneurs see all the time, not necessarily. The lifestyle entrepreneur who just works freelance and more talking about the kind of big thinkers who maybe are the ones that we see in the news. but yeah, so there's all sorts of reasons, but ideally you are, you're driven towards something you want to see happen.
George Milton:I think that's a really good call out because I talk to a lot of entrepreneurs and there's some folks that I kind of unofficially mentor. I see people tripping over these things that tripped over in my own way. You talk about getting investors and like. One of the first questions that I get asked by early stage entrepreneurs, that are trying to build a product, I'm usually talking to product people'cause I'm a product person, right? So like that's just kind of the circle. But, building a product and scaling a product is super expensive. like not only do you have to do the marketing, but you have to do physical distribution and you have to physically make it every time. right? If I'm a content creator, I don't have to physically remake the video for every single person who is gonna play the video. I make it one time and then I'm marketing it. But like physical goods, you do all of the marketing stuff. And you have to physically distribute it and physically make it every time, which takes half of the, it's like half of the cost is just physically making it. So like I get asked the question a lot often one of the first questions, that I get asked early stage or aspiring entrepreneurs is. How do I get investors or like why I need to get investors for this thing. and I will ask back the question of like, what is it that you're trying to do? Like, why did you start this? And a lot of times the answer is that they we're like, oh, well there's a white space in the market for X, y, or Z and I talk to a lot of food entrepreneurs, right? So you might. Say like, oh, well there's a, you know, there's a big trend towards protein, so this is a protein snack. And it's like, do people a, like, the first question I always ask is like, do people like this thing? Especially in food, like, are people gonna use it? Are like, do people like the way that it tastes? Do people like the thing that you're selling? because you have to answer that question before you answer the, like, before I go say, Hey, I wanna raise a million dollars, or. the other question is like, what is it that you're trying to do with your life? Like what is it all for? That question of like, what is it all for? Because if you're trying to make money, right? If you're trying to make if I'm trying to make$20 million, if I'm trying to go like. Get, acquire generational wealth for the first time in my, because that, you know, if I were to have a big win, it would be the first time in my family history. We don't have, I don't have any generational wealth to speak of, and my partner doesn't either. But that's often the answer that they kind of want this moonshot and you can just really clearly look at the statistics and there is not a statistic, like if you want. To do better, you will find a career that pays more. Just find a career that pays more. If your whole goal is financial, I don't wanna say go be a lawyer'cause I don't know what AI is gonna do to the legal profession. Like now that Chad g
Ellen:At the moment,
George Milton:Nothing's safe. Yeah. But it's like, there are other things where you could say Hey, if I'm going to start a proteins from an odds perspective. Exactly.
Ellen:Yeah.
George Milton:and so like, that's kind of the first question that I am asking people that it's like, okay, well if you, if you don't really believe in the product really, right? You're just saying like, oh, well people want a protein snack, so here's a protein snack. And you really want freedom or what, whatever it is that you really want. It's like, you should be asking all those questions. I should be sending those people to you. Right? And you say like, Hey, here's the 10 questions. I'm gonna do a little bit of, coaching slash therapy. And say like, Hey, what is it that I really, really want, out of this? And I'm asking, you know, I'm kind of in a new season of my life too, so I'm, I'm kind of asking, you know, myself those questions as like. I'm in my early forties now, and I'm like, what is it that I want out of this decade or outta this season of life? I'm interested, I wanna, appreciate you in interviewing me back. But I want to ask you, like, you've been doing this for five years. I think I know a little bit of this, but what was it that kind of pushed you, to like, what is it that you want? What do you want outta all of this?
Ellen:Yeah, good question. Thank you for turning the table back again and I'll it my best shot at answering.'cause I think those motivations as you're just talking to for yourself, they do change over time and we go through seasons of life. So certain points, our motivation for our business shifts and then we have to check in. The reason I started this maybe is no longer as pressing, do I still want this? And I had a bit of that questioning last year in fact. And I had a season of probably six to seven months of not being quite so sure and pulling back and starting a second kind of newsletter and pulling back on that. And then re reigned, but if I go back to my original desire to do what I do today, if I was to see myself now in that point in time, I would be like, great. I want that. Yes, let's go. So in that sense, I'm successful from that original desire, which was a, to feel rewarded by the effort I put in. If we use your gross to net kind of analogy, I actually, my corporate effort, passion, dedication, everything. And there were multiple times where I felt like that wasn't appreciated or rewarded. so I like the idea of having complete autonomy over, like if I wanted, I'm gonna use lots of your analogies back to you now. If I wanna put in intensity over density, I'll get rewarded for that. That was one, and I think one was like a passion driver of I'm so interested in this space. I'm so interested in work and how things are evolving and I wanna dedicate more of my attention and energy to that. I've always enjoyed work. I've always enjoyed school or whatever and I wanted to be in a position where every single day I would turn up and feel like, cool, I get to do the things that I'm interested in and get paid perhaps more than I could. In a corporate field because I'm in control of what I charge and how much I work and what the opportunities are. And I also saw the opportunities of the media industry shifting towards personal brands. I saw the rise of the creator economy. I saw a bit of a white space for who talk about work. That white space has since been filled, but when I had the idea in 2019 or whatever it was, I was like, I don't really see people talking about these ideas and these concepts, and in some ways I've not been successful in that pursuit because I'm not famous. I'm not an influencer.
George Milton:Stuff.
Ellen:what I figured out. Through my own set of questions is actually I don't want that. I want to be doing deep work with people. I don't wanna be doing shallow surface level content just to have some brands sponsor me who I don't even know the brand, right? I'm much more interested in doing this, like behind closed doors work than I do for the most part with my clients, and then I write about it. So I wanted to spend my working hours coaching and writing, creating new stuff and helping people figure out what they want to do for their work and get paid as much, if not more than I could in my corporate. Field. And I think I've ticked all those boxes. think the money side of things, I'm still hoping it will compound over time. But I've, certainly made it work and feel grateful for that. now I feel like the motivations have shifted again to bit more systemic stuff. Okay, this is how the landscape of work is shifting. I wanna be. A voice and a guide to help people navigate what I think in the future will become increasingly uncertain and increasingly confusing. So my role as a coach has gone Away from helping an individual find the quote unquote perfect job or business towards helping lots of people make sense and then survive and thrive in this more messy, uncertain world of work. And if I get to do. the things that I've been doing along the way whilst helping people, then that's tick for me.
George Milton:I like that about surviving, the modern, just like surviving is, that's number one right? Is figuring out how to survive.
Ellen:of needs.
George Milton:Yeah. Yeah. And I think that you can really easily but can really easily be like, Hey, let's do a podcast or whatever. That's about like growing a hundred million dollar business, right? There's like a lot of that, like, how do you grow a hundred million dollar business or like, the first like one person billion dollar business. And I think that It sort of skims right past this question that most people have, which is, how do I survive? There are a number of people out there who are doing very well and have enough. Maybe they've got enough investments or savings or something that they're okay, but for most people, that's not the truth, For most people, if you took away the thing that you had today, most people have a fuse, and it's not super long. As far as how long could they exist without replacing that,
Ellen:Yeah.
George Milton:that becomes really difficult. I'm not gonna ask you to answer this because I think that it's kind of a systemic thing where people are like, oh, do we need universal basic income? And different countries and different groups have different ideas about that. I'm not really going to espouse one of those ideas over another idea. I'm just saying that there are a lot of people asking this question about like. Okay, well, not only will AI take our jobs, but like are will something else take our jobs? Like will inflation take these jobs or will the tariffs make these jobs go to another country? Or am I gonna lose my job? Is this company gonna survive? Is this industry gonna survive? And I think there's just kind of a general anxiety, at least I feel this kind of general anxiety around that and around owning more of your future. So like I think that, like when I think of modern entrepreneurship, it's different. Even from when I started, my business where there's kind of this, there's just kind of more anxiety that exists out there around like. what is my future? What does my future look like? And I think if you're like me or like you, you want to be the author of that instead of just the recipient of here's what your future looks like, I'm gonna hand it to you, or the industry's gonna hand it to you, or I'm just gonna be on the job hunting end of it, and I'll just see what's out there and see how I can mold myself into these various shapes that the industry has decided. Exists, in 2025 or 2030 or 2035 or whatever, right? Like however long we're gonna keep, chunking, edit. So I think that's just a big statement, but do you feel this increase in anxiety maybe over the last, I don't know, post COVID, like post ai, like that there's just a, Hey, is the world going to upheave how do I have more control over my own destiny?
Ellen:I think from a certain perspective there's always been that like low level anxiety. In people's lives for different reasons, but in the last few years I think we can all appreciate how many just like global crises there have felt are ongoing. And that's why there's so much mental health, challenges amongst the younger generations.'cause that's all they've known. And I think if we go back to like our childhoods in the nineties or the eighties or whatever, like I don't think that there was quite so many things to be. Quite so scared about, or if there were, we weren't exposed to it every single day through social media and newsfeed. So on that front, I don't think we've ever lived in a time without some issue. But from a work perspective, if I stick to the domain I'm, more familiar with, I think that there is just so much uncertainty post COVID. Realistically, it's since that point in time when. Everyone's eyes open to the fact that like we can work remotely. Okay, so what does that mean? If we are then forced to go back to an office or might get, let go and furlough or get let go and not have a job overnight, but under unforeseen circumstances and at the same time we see more and more people flock to the likes of social media or. Whatever, becoming a LinkedIn influencer or whatever it is to make their own income. And there's more like questioning from people of what am I safe here? And I think the rhetoric has shifted from nine to five, is safe to nine to five is not actually as safe as it once was. It's in fact less safe than owning your own income streams. And there are certain parts of the world where entrepreneurial livelihoods are the more of the norm. So there's less jobs and those that tends to be in lower income countries. So actually in Africa it's 80% entrepreneurship. That doesn't necessarily mean we have more wealth. It means we're surviving, in, in many cases we're putting together what we can to make ends meet. And I think if the. Current kind of situation continues where more and more companies downsize and reduce head count for whatever reasons, then people are starting to feel that shock. People are staying unemployed for longer. And, I think most people know somebody who's found it really hard to get a new job or gone freelance because they couldn't get a job. And I see it in America, in the US especially.'cause they, the two territories that I'm. Most involved with from a client perspective, but I think it's happening worldwide. This sounds super bleak right now. I don't know if helping anyone, but, yeah, why I want to be in the content I create that's free and it's, trying to show people what it can look like to take control of your circumstances. And I just wanna point out that we've touched on a lot of topics quickly, but one of them was, some people have wealth, right? They don't need this business to work, and then other people have this short fuse, and I think if that's where you're at, choosing to build some sort of niche, hard business is probably not your best bet. Your best bet is to probably get a job in a shop or be an Uber driver, right? cover some basic income. Even if it feels way below your station, because the act of creating something from nothing, especially to your product example, does anybody want this? I see that same con. I have to ask that same question in the context of like services and ideas driven businesses. It's yes, you think this is a good idea and you think this is a problem worth solving, but who's willing to pay for this? And if it's something that you've completely like. Come up without a thinner and you're betting your like livelihood on it. Let's cover some income needs elsewhere. And that's where universal basic income would make a lot of sense in some ways. And again, we won't probably get into that here, but I am such a big proponent of the safety net of entrepreneurship has to be secured in whatever way you can. you can be the most creative or the most innovative, because most of the people who are doing that on someone else's money. Investors are partners, family wealth, like I get to see the behind the scenes of many businesses and so many of the founders I work with have a source of income that, that they are using to fund the business, the suits. So yeah. Familiar with all the different ways it can look and I just want people to go in with eyes open, basically.
George Milton:Yeah, I agree with that. I think there is romanticized to just like take the leap of faith. But I think for any aspiring entrepreneurs, or part-time hustlers out there, there has to be some de-risking to that leap, right? I think it shouldn't just be the romantic leap of faith into nothing or over an abyss with no clear. Landing point on the other side. I do think you can de-risk it by answering some of those key questions about like, do people want this thing? Do people want this product or service? Doing, I don't know, a bit of a side hustle. Like it doesn't, you, you talked about income streams. And I think that's a really valuable, you're not the only person that I hear using this phrase. I feel like this idea of multiple income streams, without even using the word entrepreneurship. a really interesting and powerful one, right? Because you can, you talked about Uber driving. there is this gig economy that exists out there, right? And so You don't have to necessarily be one thing. Right? Like I had, I will say that even though I didn't get to start my business with generational wealth. I was before, I didn't, regardless of how I might talk about corporate, I didn't come from corporate. I was a bar musician before I had this business. One of the interesting parts about that is it's gig work. Like it's the original gig work, right? like bar gigs are the original
Ellen:Yeah.
George Milton:It's not something that takes 60 hours of your week. it is also one of those things that for me was more like energizing than it was draining to do. I could still go make hot sauce and start a business I don't think if I had a full-time job that I was at for 60 hours every week, it would've been really hard to have the flexibility to do that. So I think that like having income streams where you're like, Hey, this is not. I'm not putting it all into this basket, or I've got a couple of things that I can do. Right. I think that's a really powerful, thing. I do wanna talk a little bit and maybe make the conversation just slightly lighter than like, survival. just how do, how do we survive? Talk, talking about in acidification, and we've talked a little bit about content and social platforms. I think, and you'll have to, you'll have to correct me if I'm mis mischaracterizing your stance on this, but I think that I, I think that you've written a little bit about owning your own content, owning your voice, and kind of owning your space. And I know you just recently switched from. Substack to beehive. how are, how do you think about, like what is your position on the social media platforms and like the general and acidification of social media?
Ellen:I think the. Way that we've used social media over recent years has become much more about self-promotion than it has social connection. And that's been driven partly for the reasons I've been talking about today, like the need, the necessity and or desire to make an income of our own, whether we have a job or not. Whether we are doing that to promote something we're trying to build or. Sell something to make ends meet. And so there has just become a lot more noise on those platforms and a lot more people wanting to filter out that noise.'cause that's realistically when you're selling something, 1% of your audience are really in the market to buy that thing. So 99% of your audience want to not listen to you in that moment if you're promoting something. I think that's one reason. And the other is the word in justification for anybody who's not familiar is the term coined by Corey doctor, who is like a kind of thinker in space of culture and business, I believe, and said like all platforms, and this includes Amazon, to Facebook, to and insert other type of platform, but go through a cycle of we need users, so how do we get users? We're super generous to our users. So if we take LinkedIn as an example. LinkedIn itself after the Microsoft acquisition became cool again after years. There really only recruiters using LinkedIn. I was using LinkedIn and no one else was. And then in the recent years, a lot of people went to LinkedIn and were like, oh, this is fun. We can other people and promote our services and LinkedIn were being super generous to its users in that period. And then the next phase of unification is being generous to the people that pay for the service who are not us.'cause we get it for free. That's the advertisers. And in order to be generous to advertisers, you have to promote advertising content. because there's only so much space on the feed, you have to deprioritize the free content. Meaning that if you're posting about your personal brand or your business on LinkedIn and you're not paying to do that, your posts are now receiving less reach. the final stage of certification is, it just becomes bad for everyone. Like neither the people paying nor the people who are not paying are really having a good time on there. There's too much rubbish on there. There's too many ads, there's too much like slop basically, and AI has entered the picture and now LinkedIn is very different than it was I think even a year ago. There's just way more, let's call it slop. And so that leaves a lot of people who've maybe built brands or audiences on those platforms feeling like I'm not quite getting what I want out of this space. And that is a cycle that will repeat itself on many platforms over whatever, 10 years or is it one year? Substack is a good example of like super generous to its early users. Now everyone has a substack and there's this kind of different thing going on there and good and bad. So if you own your own space, you have your own website, you have your own email list, then you have to fight harder to get eyeballs to it because there's not in Bill eyeballs on those platforms. No one was gonna find your website unless you send them there in the way that they might find your LinkedIn because you are. went viral. then once you have their attention, you can arbitrate. You know how people interact with your stuff. You can send an email and a hundred percent of your a hundred people on that email list will receive it. Versus you post into an algorithm like LinkedIn or Instagram, maybe 3% of your audience even see that post. So that's why I'm doubling down on long form writing. Off social media. Not to say I'm against social media, I just think if you are really trying to thrive in the online space as a thought leader, thinker, someone whose time is worth paying for, you don't wanna do that on what we call rented land. Like we, we are renting our land when it comes to social media.
George Milton:I'm curious if you've got thoughts about this. I'm not super heavy into like Web3 or all of that stuff, but it's very interesting to me. I know that there's a Web3 kind of like substack, called paragraph. Do you know about that or are you kind of like, because I guess the idea of Web3 is that you own all of this stuff. Take it with you all the time. are you interested in any of that stuff or are you, because I agree that like kind of having your own website and your own distribution list is sort of like the top of the mountain, but
Ellen:Yeah, I just did a quick search and paragraph. They look really cool. I haven't seen them before, but my sort of like very quick, not super informed take on Web3.
George Milton:I.
Ellen:Is that right now it's still in that early adopted only phase. So there's only the people who've really adopted it and are in those communities that are really utilizing it and it's still not meet reach like mass So therefore it could reach that tipping point where the people who got in first have advantages in the same way that people with like early blogs had a web two advantage, but it also, there's a risk. It never reaches mass adoption. And so we could go. on Web3 and not really be necessary. But I know that it's been in the, in discussions for four or five years and it's still not quite taken off in the mainstream.
George Milton:I don't know. I've just like, keep poking into paragraph and I'm like, oh, do I wanna move to paragraph or to beehive or I like beehive a lot. I just have built a, like I would have to move all of my stuff over. Anyway, that's a question for another time.
Ellen:I could import all my previous substack into beehive with one click. So that was great. But from a people expect George to show up on a substack perspective, then yeah, you are gonna have to rebuild kind of, like brand in a way. And branding as well, changes.
George Milton:Yeah, I'm not so in the substack world that people would necessarily miss me in a huge way, over there. I just think it's really interesting. I know we're kind of coming up on our time. I want to ask you, the big question that I think is the most important question. Are you happy? is your life good?
Ellen:Thank you for asking. That's such a, yeah, a wonderful question. I am really happy at the moment. I think I've been very intentional about what I've been building
George Milton:I.
Ellen:a work perspective, but I've also been trying very hard to make sure I'm doing things outside of work that make me happy and I'm in a really good space.
George Milton:More than that.
Ellen:It's not always been the case. So when it is the case, I'm really able to like and say, well done, for sometimes hard choices that I've made before to get to this point. whether it's relationships or bank account or body or health, I think they all take work to have those things in a good space. And they're never perfect, but I'm like, yeah, I'm happy.
George Milton:Good. I'm glad. I'm happy that you're happy. And I think that that's, I should probably ask that question way earlier because that's really, like, I don't want to take advice from people who aren't happy because my goal is to be happy, so
Ellen:Good to know.
George Milton:yeah.
Ellen:you sensed it as well.
George Milton:Yeah, I could feel it. I could feel it. That was, when I was in the fitness, personal training world way back in the day, people would ask, how do you like pick a coach? How do you pick a personal trainer? And it was like, are they what you want to be? do you wanna be fast? Is the person training you fast or have they been fast or,
Ellen:yeah.
George Milton:they stacked, right? Are they, is, are they just absolutely ju because you don't necessarily want a sprinting program from like Mr. Olympia, because that's not what that. Game is about. So anyway, what I'm trying to say is if you're trying to be happy and you're trying to be an entrepreneur, maybe you should talk to Ellen from the Ask Ellen, will you tell people how they can find you? And I think everybody should subscribe for some, at least some of your free content through your, newsletter that you're running now, which I think is amazing.
Ellen:Thank you, George. So my website is the dash. Asks k.uk or.com, and it will redirect. And on there you'll find a blog and you can read some of my kind of best ideas. And also the footer. You'll find a signup form for my newsletter. the newsletter is called Ellen from the Ask. And my tagline is, grow your Business and Build Authority in a world where everyone's an entrepreneur. I talk a lot about. This entrepreneurial future work and then authority building and how you can do that
George Milton:So for all of the stuff that we've kind of veered off into, if you want to learn more about Ellen's, take, follow her there. If you wanna listen to more gross to net, you can find us anywhere that podcasts are available, or george milton.substack.com. For now at least. thanks everybody, and we will see you next time. Bye-bye.