Ep. 8 - Building Meaning From The Ground Up with Mason Arnold | Gross To Net

Mason was a chemical engineer at UT who started an environmentally-friendly lawncare service and discovered his lifelong addiction to entrepreneurship. Among other amazing accomplishments, Mason founded Greenling as a very early grocery delivery service and hit #3 on the Inc 5000 list when he was running Cece's Veggie Co. 

Now Mason and his wife Jess run Small Potatoes which an anti-PE incubator for amazing early to mid stage CPG food brands. He also writes The Puzzle which is Mason's exploration of, as he says, building meaning from the ground up.

Follow Mason and also give us a 5-star rating on your podcast app! It helps a whole lot. Check out the Gross To Net Substack for more groundbreaking content.

Transcript

George Milton 0:22

Welcome to Gross to Net, the podcast that asks what you're really optimizing for and what it costs to get there. Today's guest has built and sold five companies over 20 years, uh, from organic Lawn care company to the first farm to table grocery delivery service in Texas to CC'S Veggie Co, which hit number three on the ink. 5,000, raised$14 million in private equity and sold, uh, over the last several years. But, uh. That was the A round. Okay. Uh, four years after that he's doing some completely different stuff. Uh, running small potatoes, uh, unlimited with his partner Jess, uh, venture Studio. I think it has the tagline. Don't spend 2 million to make 1 million. I. While simultaneously writing a philosophical newsletter called The Puzzle about presence and meaning that came from what he calls, uh, late Night Float and Vision. We're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about it, what it costs to build those companies, what happens when you take private equity money, and then build, uh, an semi-private equity model. Why somebody who wrote explosive growth to num growth to number three on the Inc. 5,000 is now writing about Zen Buddhism and stillness. Today's guest is none other than Mason Arnold. Welcome Mason.

Mason 1:39

Thanks for having me, George.

George Milton 1:41

Uh, I'm, I know, I know that my listeners are super sick of hearing me say this, but I am very excited to have you on today, man. I feel like, I feel like I,

Mason 1:50

saying it right.

George Milton 1:50

it is the first time that I'm saying it, but hey, if I wasn't excited to have these people on, they just wouldn't be here. It's, I'm just talking to people that I'm excited to talk to, so.

Mason 1:58

Very good.

George Milton 1:59

I'm happy about that, but I'm happy to have you. Uh, we've known each other for a while and I feel like every time I talk to you, I learn something interesting about your past. For example, I had in my intro that you built and sold three companies and you were like, Nope, it's five. So I wanna know about the other two companies. Um, you've, you've done a lot of stuff.

Mason 2:21

Yeah, I've done a lot of stuff over the years. Um, you know, all just trying to, to figure out what I want to do. end up trying a lot of different things.

George Milton 2:30

Yeah, same. I don't think that you're ever gonna get there, and I'm never gonna get there either.

Mason 2:35

true.

George Milton 2:35

Um, but maybe, maybe let's, I, I don't, I don't think we have enough time to learn about how you built and scaled and sold and did all of this every time. But like, what was the first company like, what was the first kind of. Real taste of entrepreneurship where you're like, this is Mason Arnold's company.

Mason 2:56

I mean, I think it was the, the landscaping company. So I'd gotten an engineering degree from ut, went to work as an engineer. And, um, was seeing firsthand what was happening to the environment here in Texas. And, you know, it turns out the, the biggest problem that the Texas environment has is residential, uh, landscaping and lawn care, and the, the chemicals and people overly compared to agriculture, other uses. And so the additional. Fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, all flow into rivers and lakes and, um, you know, cause massive problems that the state has to spend. Uh, I think billions of dollars to kind of remediate. So,

George Milton 3:43

So, uh.

Mason 3:44

You know, that's where I got the idea for my first company. I'd been poking around and doing things, but, um, you know, seeing that kind of stark challenge to the environment, I hadn't really, I was raised by hippies, but was, would not have considered myself an environmentalist before my, um, engineering role where I was literally seeing it. Um, and so that company, is, was. Interesting. It was simple landscaping company labor leverage there. It was a great way to learn fundamentals of business. Um, all the way down to, you know, payment terms, cash conversion cycles and appropriately charging customer service, like all the kind of buckets but without a very complex product. And so, um, it was great for learning about

George Milton 4:34

Learning about all of that.

Mason 4:36

You know, uh, landscape companies don't really grow by marketing. They grow by word of mouth. And for me, that was, uh, too slow. But I had discovered online advertising before anyone in that industry had, and so was able to kind of. Uh, you know, grow faster than the typical model, but still not fast enough for me. Um, and so I sold that company a couple years later and I turned, you know, I started it with of cash from working four months at my engineering job and sold it for half a million dollars a year and a half later. And I was like, all right, this, uh, entrepreneurship thing seems pretty easy. Um, so that was my first success.

George Milton 5:19

And it is you, and you still hold that belief, right? Pretty easy.

Mason 5:23

Definitely not. I think. I

George Milton 5:26

Yeah. That.

Mason 5:27

easy businesses to start and often I sincerely wish that I could find fulfillment in those businesses.

George Milton 5:36

Well, I'm, I, that's something that I want to get into because I agree with like, there are easier ways to make a buck. Like if your, if your goal is to create half a million dollars of value over two years, you could probably make a list of like the quickest ways to do that.

Mason 5:54

Yeah.

George Milton 5:55

Um, and just start at the top of that list. Like that wouldn't be a hard task for a guy as smart as you who's like driven and stuff like that. You could probably come up with that list. You might already have that list somewhere. Of like, here's the easiest bus, here's the easiest way. And you know, like one of the easiest ways for, um, is chemical engineering Is that, that was your degree. So like the e maybe the easiest way for somebody with a chemical engineering degree from UT to create half a million dollars of value in two years is to do chemical engineering.

Mason 6:27

Right. definitely. That would be one, uh, probably the, the easiest and the, the most, uh, appropriate for the education.

George Milton 6:39

But what is it, I guess, uh, you talk about creating meaning and you're, uh, I'll, I'll plug this now like you're, uh, I subscribe to your, um, blog or newsletter. Are we calling them blogs still or are they all newsletters? What are we calling them?

Mason 6:54

I don't, I don't know.

George Milton 6:56

I feel like I think of Substack as like a blog, but it's a newsletter platform, right? So like

Mason 7:01

I don't know

George Milton 7:02

I,

Mason 7:02

that technically, but, uh, I just,

George Milton 7:06

your publication, let's say the puzzle, um, that, that is about finding, it's about finding meaning and about putting those pieces together, right? Am I

Mason 7:17

Yep.

George Milton 7:18

being overly broad?

Mason 7:19

No, that that is.

George Milton 7:22

Well, what is it? So like what is it, aside from like, hey, you can kind of create your destiny as far as like what returns do you want? What, what kind of things kind of, uh, I guess get you going from, from like the, the perspective of creating meaning.

Mason 7:40

Yeah, I guess, uh, you know, as I started to explore it through the lens of, uh, the puzzle, which, know, we say came in a, uh, a float in the pool. It was a, a summer, uh, following a or. the midst of a, you know, business failure and conflict with, um, you know, ex-partners and, you know, really just kind of a, a tough time. And this one particular night where things, um. We were, brought to the surface for me as I went to an event with a bunch of other entrepreneurs, essentially celebrating all of our successes. And I had the whole imposter syndrome in it. And, you know, it really sent my mind kind of reeling and, uh, I came home from it, uh, pretty down on myself. Uh, but they were like. Cigars there, and I stole a cigar in my hand and I thought I was

George Milton 8:41

Thought

Mason 8:41

my family, but it turns out they were all gone. And so the, the house

George Milton 8:45

from out the guard,

Mason 8:46

hot, uh, summer day. And so I decided I was just gonna go in

George Milton 8:52

close my school,

Mason 8:53

bottle of wine and a, and the cigar that I had, which I don't normally smoke cigars. I

George Milton 8:58

guard

Mason 8:58

are celebratory things, and I hadn't lit it up that night'cause I didn't feel like celebrating. uh, something about the

George Milton 9:05

about the.

Mason 9:05

of, of all those things and looking up at how the trees and the canopy kind of fit together this v vision, I, you know, say I feel

George Milton 9:15

I feel like

Mason 9:16

handed to me. It felt way more. Uh, like a, a conversation with an, with something external than just my mind ruminating, which my mind ruminates all the time.

George Milton 9:26

the.

Mason 9:27

so I'm very familiar with, I would say, the boundaries of my mind through, you know, drug induced ruminations through, uh, you know, all kinds of emotional ups and downs. And so it, it felt

George Milton 9:39

Felt like

Mason 9:40

crazy, um, conversation. And the, the idea was this entire framework. Um, about, uh, you know, life as, as a puzzle and building our own, um, puzzles and all the

George Milton 9:54

and all this

Mason 9:54

to me that came so fast I could just barely even, um, write it down

George Milton 9:59

down,

Mason 9:59

And so I, I, everything down

George Milton 10:02

down.

Mason 10:03

And then at the very end, and this just rather appropriate. Uh, ending to it. I felt like I had received the entire

George Milton 10:12

I hired

Mason 10:13

I was like, is that it? And my phone just like, died right in front of me and I'm like, okay, that's, that's it. I can't write anymore. So I'm done. And I just get out and, and. Went to bed and just felt weird about it for a

George Milton 10:26

a.

Mason 10:27

And then, um, started, you know, more info started coming to me and I started to think about how to apply it to my life and what that meant. And then through that, as I, it wasn't until I really started writing the newsletter that, um, I was picking apart the ideas and what they meant in and of themselves. And then, and through that I really discovered that, the whole thing. Bubbles up to, uh, you know, a way for us to find meaning that's not, um, prescriptive and, and really a way for me to find meaning that's not prescriptive, but more of like if you apply these things that are a combination of. Our brains kind of natural wirings and tendencies with, um, you know, understanding where we came from and where we are, and then thinking and then visions for the future. That kind of, through these practices, uh, to me I found it was a, a whole new way to find meaning, which was from the ground up rather than thinking about something and then saying, if I go for that, that creates meaning.

George Milton 11:40

Right. I mean, well, that's, that's a lot, man. I think that I ha, I ha I, I, uh. I'm into it. I'm, I'm trying to figure out how to maybe like, uh, for people who haven't read this yet, you should just go read the puzzle, um, by Mason Arnold, subscribe to the newsletter, but I kind of share, I share some of this with you, right? Like, I started writing, I, not, not a, not the exact experience, but I, I think that there, you know, we're kindred spirits in some ways where like, I didn't, I didn't start a food company to like maximize shareholder profits. Like that was never. Y you know, that was never like what I, you know, I, I wasn't like a 9-year-old. Like, what do you wanna be when you grow up? I wanna maximize shareholder profits. Right.

Mason 12:25

Yeah.

George Milton 12:26

I imagine that wasn't, that probably wasn't you either, unless you were like a peculiar 9-year-old, which I imagine you probably were,

Mason 12:32

I was fairly peculiar and,

George Milton 12:36

but.

Mason 12:37

was, I mean, back then I was all about money because we were broke and my parents had, uh, declared bankruptcy. And so I was like studying stock markets and, and money as a young kid. And it wasn't until I graduated and made money that I'm like, oh, this isn't what drives me. I'm not motivated by money. So. Then, then I had to turn my attention to what it all really means.

George Milton 13:01

Yeah. And you've had some, I mean, you've had some, like, at least externally and you, you know, you mentioned having kind of imposter syndrome, which I'm also, uh, pretty familiar with. But like there's, there's this kind of external motivation of like being on the ink, 5,000 lists, like. That's, I've never been there, but like that's pretty externally motivating, right? Like you get, um, you get celebrated in a LinkedIn kind of way, right? In a Forbes kind of way. How, how does that stuff, like, how does that stuff feel to you? Does it feel, does it at least feel good when it pops up? Or like, how do you think about that sort of external.

Mason 13:41

Yeah, like that and, and, you know, I might call it more, you know, it's validation more than, uh, motivation for me. Um, and at, at this point, um, it probably more than anything to the imposter syndrome where I'm like. Why are my projects not number three on the Inc 5,000 again? Um, and it's because each time I'm, you know, I'm, I'm optimizing for different things and having done that, uh, before, like, you know, that the, having achieved that milestone, um, allowed me to. Raise more money, build a bigger network. It was, it really was able to extend my reach, I guess it would say. Um, but it wasn't anything that was fundamentally, uh, either changed me and, and what I really want out of life. Um, nor, you know, in retrospect, is it something that, that I still celebrate?

George Milton 14:53

On your behalf.

Mason 14:55

Okay.

George Milton 14:56

But let's, let's maybe, uh, move forward or back, I guess, at this point to greening, um,'cause greening, I think was what you were, I think you were doing that when I met you first, which was probably 20 10, 20 11, 20 12, somewhere in that timeframe. Um, and you founded that in 2005, is that right?

Mason 15:18

Yeah. So after the, you know, I sold my, um, landscaping company, thought I was gonna be, um. You know, this, uh, just amazing. Do whatever I want. Entrepreneur. And I had this, I had done study abroad in Spain and saw, um, thought had a million ideas over there. There's not a lot of entrepreneurship over there. They were like 30 years out of being a third world country. Um, so it wasn't in their culture. So it just seemed like there's a ton of opportunity. Had this idea for a chain of, um, restaurants. I raised American money. And I had Spanish operating partners. And when I sold the landscape company, I'm like, awesome, I'm gonna move to Spain and be an international, uh, entrepreneur. And, um, that went

George Milton 16:04

that, that was

Mason 16:05

And I, you know, lost all of

George Milton 16:08

always.

Mason 16:08

I had made. Uh, from selling the landscaping company, uh, lost my girlfriend and contracted a parasite. So, you know, in just barely exactly one year, I ended up back on my mom's couch, broke, sick and alone

George Milton 16:22

Or

Mason 16:23

a very, you know, proverbial journey there. you know, some

George Milton 16:28

something

Mason 16:29

out.

George Milton 16:29

stuck out.

Mason 16:30

was that I had spent a year like chasing, Like chasing success. And at the end of that year, had failed and I had failed in a way where I was like, I don't, I, nothing along the way that I did there help to the world in any way. And so that didn't feel good. It didn't feel good to feel like I wasted a year without doing anything to make the world better. Another thing that stuck out was that, you know, I had. Made money, uh, pretty quickly and then lost it. And of running away from entrepreneurship, I was just like, oh, this, this is gonna be my life. Like I'm, I'm gonna be a feast of famine kind of person. And there's gonna be ups and downs and hopefully they. Have more zeros at at the end because then that it makes it in some ways, makes it easier, in some ways, makes it a lot harder.'cause know, now I've got. Two kids and, you know, a, a train that I'm pulling that's, uh, it can't, can't quite handle, uh, back to zero very well. So,

George Milton 17:46

So, uh,

Mason 17:47

know, those

George Milton 17:48

those things, stuff out

Mason 17:49

when I returned home, uh, I actually got a job working at Dell for like six months selling computers and I. Very quickly caught the attention of the management there. I won some awards and they're like, Hey, you know, here's this fast track to management. I'm like, guys, I'm, I'm literally just trying to get back on my feet to, to start another

George Milton 18:09

on

Mason 18:09

'cause

George Milton 18:10

property.

Mason 18:10

how addicted I already was to the, uh, entrepreneurial journey. And so that was the

George Milton 18:16

About for

Mason 18:17

And so Green L was a model

George Milton 18:20

model that

Mason 18:22

I felt

George Milton 18:22

felt question,

Mason 18:23

when I went to work, at the end of the day, if I got hit by a bus, I felt like I had helped the world a little in that day. And in that way, I felt better about it, knowing

George Milton 18:33

knowing that.

Mason 18:34

it may succeed or it may fail. Um, but either way, I felt like I was doing good.

George Milton 18:40

Greening was, can, can you briefly like give us kind of the synopsis of what Greening was?

Mason 18:46

Yeah, so Greenland was, um, super early in grocery delivery, but we started as a, the, the arc for the company was that we were gonna start as a meta CSA product working with a bunch of local farms that we vetted and having a CSA box every week that was more variable than individual farm CSA boxes could be. And then through and then grow into a curated grocery delivery where we still carried, you know, coffee and, and bananas even though those don't grow anywhere near local, but focused primarily on local and organic goods.

George Milton 19:27

But 20 years ago you were like, Hey, grocery Delivery's gonna be big.

Mason 19:31

Yeah.

George Milton 19:34

Could have been listening to Mason Arnold back then. Yeah. And, and that's, I mean, I love that that is, I mean, impactful, right? Like it's a great, honestly, like, still probably a gap in the market where you've got, you know, farmhouse delivery doing some stuff, and then you've got every grocer, uh, you know, deliverying grocers groceries, but it, it kind of doesn't address the. I don't know. I mean, farmhouse delivery is great and the services like that are great, but there's still this huge hole in like local or even regional, like, not even hyper-local, but just like, just like, Hey, can I get my groceries from Texas? Like, how much stuff can I get from Texas before I go elsewhere? And, um, that there's kind of a big hole there.

Mason 20:21

Yeah.

George Milton 20:22

Yeah.

Mason 20:23

Um, and, you know, uh, when we sold to, to farmhouse, um. We are actually, we are larger than them, but I saw, I saw the market getting really hard, at least for a while with Amazon and Instacart, um, moving in. And so I, I felt, and I was just, um, just completely burned out. I mean, I, I describe it. I. To people that I, I ran the business for 10 years and it took 20 years of my life. Like I was just beating my head against the wall for a decade. Um, and very fulfilling, but still, you know, beating your head against the wall causes brain damage after a while. Um, even if it there, it provides some kind of, uh, value. And so

George Milton 21:04

So I.

Mason 21:05

a gap for curated food and curated for. Um,'cause then farmhouse delivery took it back to only local and I'm like, ah, God. Like it, it doesn't address, you know, I, I, I think our general diet should be 50% local,

George Milton 21:22

So

Mason 21:22

regional, and then 25% like wherever. Things can grow in bounty and I think it's phenomenal when, you know, some area can grow chocolate better than 99.9% of the world and can grow enough to share with the world and you know, make wealth for that area of the world. So I think those

George Milton 21:41

I.

Mason 21:41

be supported but not. You know, count it on, or, um, or, uh, you know, what is it taken advantage of where you then destroy the ecosystem by, uh, you know, creating just one product and an ecosystem. Mm-hmm.

George Milton 21:56

We shouldn't be throwing away Texas tomatoes to buy like, to, uh, tomatoes from Mexico or something.

Mason 22:03

Yeah, exactly.

George Milton 22:05

Um. Then you started, uh, and then you started CCS after that. And, and one of the interesting things about cece is,'cause I've been in a handful of, uh, conversations, usually over a bourbon or something where you talked about the machinery. Um, and I think you guys developed a lot of that machinery. So CCS started as uh, veggie noodle co.

Mason 22:30

Yeah.

George Milton 22:30

Right? It was Veggie Noodle Co. And then cece's veggie Noodle Co. And then.

Mason 22:34

Cc's

George Milton 22:34

I getting it right? And then cc's veggie co. So you started, you started, um, I mean, I think you, you probably single-handedly started that kind of like, uh, prepped veggie movement that every, you know, like I, I feel like whenever I go into HEB or something and I see like, like pre-sliced cucumber or whatever, I'm, I'm like, oh, that, you know, that's there, the prepped veggie kinda section. I, I feel like I give, uh, you know, ccs a lot of credit. For that.

Mason 23:04

We, and we brought like the, we proved that brand could succeed in produce,'cause a lot of stores thought it couldn't and thought that it had to be considered, like made in-house for it to be fresh. And so that. Certainly informed, like our packaging design. And our initial packaging was the exact same claim shells that most of the in-store, um, created, prepped veggies were in. But then we put a, a sleeve on it with branding that built

George Milton 23:36

Built better

Mason 23:37

than,

George Milton 23:38

the.

Mason 23:38

you know, that those chopped veggies did. And so, uh, we created a little rocket ship and it was, you know, in terms of. Thinking about gross to net, like I was burned out from Green Lane. The exit there was not, uh, you know, financially beneficial. So I was, um, struggling and, uh, broke again. And, but I knew the only thing that I could do was. only thing that I wanted to do was entrepreneurship. And so I kind of, I backed off of

George Milton 24:12

I kind of.

Mason 24:13

um, it Mission with ccs, where Green Lang was. I wanted to hit every sustainability, uh, governance, um, you know, team, like every, everywhere that I could do the right thing. I wanted to do it. And you know, that made it exceedingly difficult all the

George Milton 24:36

Called, not

Mason 24:37

And so for

George Milton 24:38

so for

Mason 24:38

I was like, look, I'm gonna

George Milton 24:39

customer.

Mason 24:40

product. still gonna be better for you and it's still gonna be helping people eat veggies. So it's gonna, it's gonna be, and it's, and it was all certified organic. And so it was all, it was good for the world. But you know, we used some virgin plastic and we had, we were trucking, you know, vegetables all over the US so there were things that were not. um, you know, for it, but for me, I was like, I need to shift my focus too. things that allow me to, to take care of my family and the people around me. Um, e easier than also trying to save the world at, at the same time. And so, um, I invented the machine that makes, uh, PAs out of fresh vegetables. It's still the, the i, it is still the best I look. I drove around and, and met with other people inventing similar machines, and I'm still like. The no one quite got it in terms of, um, efficiency and quality of the product, uh, compared to that machine. And that machine is still around, you know, making noodles for, um, people just, uh, not us anymore.

George Milton 25:49

Yeah. And the y'all's first product was, uh, zucchini noodles. Is that right?

Mason 25:55

zucchini

George Milton 25:55

And then,

Mason 25:56

we launched at the same time.

George Milton 25:59

yeah, I love, man, I loved, uh, both of them, but I liked the, I liked to like fry the sweet potato new IBI basically just use it as a shortcut for making hash browns. Um, so thanks.

Mason 26:11

It did. And uh, you know, I wanted to, uh, launch that as a product.'cause what we would call the shake, which was the stuff that wasn't long noodles, it was a hash. Um, and so I really wanted to, uh, launch that product. But it was, um, shelf life on it was too little for, for our business model. I think it still has some legs to it.

George Milton 26:35

Yeah, so when you started, I mean, you talk about being kind of like addicted to being a serial entrepreneur and I, I feel that I can't, uh, I can't imagine like going and applying for a job. I hope I don't ever have to. I would do it if I had to, but I hope I don't have to. Um,

Mason 26:51

You know, I

George Milton 26:52

but

Mason 26:52

not too long ago. Uh,

George Milton 26:54

really.

Mason 26:55

Yeah,

George Milton 26:55

How did you, how did you fit into an interview process? I'm just trying to have a, I'm trying to imagine you like driving to an interview and just like, I just feel like you would be driving to an interview being like, man, fuck. I don't want to fuck these guys. You.

Mason 27:11

You know, um, we had, uh, it was kind of after our, um. It, it's still going, so I can't call it a failure. But compared to our vision, it was, um, a failure of a, of a business. And we had some other, um, like complexities and, and life hit. Um. Hard in, in several ways. And I was newly married and my wife was like, there's too much risk in this entrepreneurship stuff. And like, we don't have a fast way to cash flow like in the moment. So, you know, we, she convinced me for a moment. She was like, we need to, to get jobs. And I, I was like. I mean, I'm sure I could make a lot of money. Um, so I will go out and, you know, look for a job and, and I also felt, um,

George Milton 28:10

It's the way you said that sentence is how I Ima I will go out and look for a job.

Mason 28:17

and I can, I can talk myself into anything and I can talk a lot of people into, into a few things. And so I talked myself into it as well, like, man, just like. the stress for a while, and we knew we were gonna have, um, some ongoing stress that was also gonna be consuming, uh, you know, more capital than a personal, um, life. And so we, I was like, this is, you know, I think I can walk into just about any. Um, company and, and, you know, really, uh, make a difference for'em. And, uh, got to final interviews on two different roles and, uh, you know, didn't get either of'em. And the feedback was like, what are you doing, Mason? You're an entrepreneur. You're, you're not, you know, they just, they didn't believe that I could be in a job, even though they were like, I wanna,

George Milton 29:10

want.

Mason 29:11

to hire you. I just, I need to hire someone long term for this position. And even though you've. Told it to me 50 times, I don't believe that, uh, you would be in this long term. And, uh, and during that, I had already been, I'm like, okay, well need to sell Jess, my wife on, you know what to do next. I, I've assumed I saw what was

George Milton 29:36

Saw.

Mason 29:36

with that whole process. And so I'm like, okay, well what, you know, what is it gonna be? And so the second job when I didn't get it, um. I was turned to Jess and I'm like, okay, so I don't think this is gonna work. Uh, just listen for a few minutes. I've got a new idea for, uh, pulling together a bunch of companies and having a portfolio and building a facility, and, and let's go do that instead.

George Milton 30:06

You gave, you gave it to her in like bite-sized pieces and not the way you just said it. Right.

Mason 30:11

Ki kind of, yeah, I think it, there was still, I'm like, here's the, you know, three year vision, but yes, step one, we can go do this thing and, uh, essentially, uh, you know, acquire a company that's in distress. And I think I, if we find the right one. That I know I could turn around. Then we essentially walk into an existing business and revenue and can build from there. And so that was step one.

George Milton 30:39

That's kind of the trade off for, like, we're not gonna start from scratch, right? You're gonna, you're gonna walk into something that already has customers and revenue and,

Mason 30:50

Yeah.

George Milton 30:51

and just needs, uh, just needs a little experience and kind of like operating skill.

Mason 30:57

Yep.

George Milton 30:57

And so that's, uh,

Mason 30:59

yeah.

George Milton 30:59

oh, go ahead.

Mason 31:01

Um, and that was even, you know, after,'cause we, our prior one was zero to one and it was, I, of course had a blast, um, doing it. But as soon as we launched and we weren't getting the traction that we had hoped, um, you know, we noticed the mistakes that we had made and we corrected, you know, rather quickly. Um. But it still

George Milton 31:30

But it still

Mason 31:30

fast and it took a long time and it consumed a lot of capital. And, you know, then it, uh, embarked on a, it was gonna continue to consume capital even without us there. So, um, I was like, I, I've gotta get out of the zero to one game. Like I, I, can still, I need to find

George Milton 31:48

So I need to find a way to.

Mason 31:49

I can innovate, um, without being stuck with one innovation. Um, and, and that was part of the genesis of. Small potatoes.

George Milton 32:00

I'm gonna take, let's take a quick break. Um, when we come back, I wanna talk more about small potatoes and I wanna talk about the zero to one game. A lot of theories about that. So stick with us. We'll be back. I. Welcome back. We're talking with Mason Arnold. Uh, we're gonna talk a little more about his, uh, honestly, unhealthy addiction to entrepreneurship. Uh, we're gonna talk a little bit about zero to one, and then I wanna circle back to, uh, the puzzle, uh, before we close out. So, Mason, let's talk a little bit about the zero to one phase because, uh, it's, it's a really weird and hard phase. It's probably. Like monetarily, definitely the least rewarding phase of the entrepreneur journey when you're just trying to figure it out and put it together. Um, my take on zero to one is that it takes an absolutely insane person to do it one time. And probably like somebody with actual brain damage should do it like over and over again from zero to, or masochism or something. Right? Like, like zero. Like zero to one. Um, I, I have done, you know, I have not started and sold. Like you've, you've done this over and over again at this point, you're a serial entrepreneur. My like pre yellowbird stuff could be considered more like sole proprietorship rather than like, oh, I started a business that was, that I could sell. Um, I do, you know, I am gonna do it over and over again.'cause I. I honestly have never, I was never good at, at like working for people. That was one of the main draws for me. That's kind of one of the things that I want to net net out of all of it is like, um, I'm not gonna say that money doesn't matter'cause that no, nobody can say that. The only people who say that money doesn't matter are like the insanely wealthy people. Everybody else, like we, we know the money matters. We know the difference. And it sounds like you know the difference, uh, in your upbringing, you know the difference between. Having money and not having money, and it's a big, big, big difference. So,

Mason 34:51

Mm-hmm.

George Milton 34:52

we we're never gonna say that money doesn't matter, but. You realize along this journey, and it sounds like you've realized that and like I have acutely realized that, which is one of the, you know, my gross to net publication, which the podcast kind of sprang out of was me saying like, Hey, I wanna like write this down. It's kind of like therapy for me that I'm just like, oh, there's a lot of other people, uh, especially in this kind of like startup food. Ecosystem, early stage food, better for you, whatever ecosystem. A lot of the people that we, you and I know in, in our industry who are like, wanted to make a difference because if they had been thinking about like maximum money, they just would've kept their job as a lawyer or, you know what I mean? Like they would've done something else for maximum money. Um, so let's go back to zero to one. Tell me a little bit about your experience in zero to one and like why it's not quite palatable today or anymore.

Mason 35:47

Yeah. And, uh, you know, I, I, hopefully it's still kosher to, to quote this man, but there is a Kanye West quote a song where he says, having money is not everything. Not having it is. And meaning not having it is everything, but having it is not everything. Um, and so speaking to your, like, the only people who say it doesn't matter are the people with it. Um,

George Milton 36:15

So, uh.

Mason 36:16

you know, zero to, to one, um, to me is the, the. While it is the hardest and the least, uh, ROI you could possibly do it is the place for the most, uh, what I call artistic expression. Uh, for a long time I started to call myself. I was like, I'm a artist and canvas or commerce is my canvas that, uh, you know, I like to create new things that didn't exist in the world before that make the world a little bit better. And so, um. You know, that requires a lot of zero to one. which for me now I've got, you know. Two kids in, um, they're actually in a, a progressive and, you know, much cheaper than other private schools, but they're in a private school and they are, we're preparing for them to go to college and I've got aging parents that I am, you know, starting to, to care for and, and so there's just a. Um, there's the, the risk profile that I've had for most of my life. I've, uh, recently I've had to really, evaluate against, um, you know, other, other needs and goals and, and be a little less, um, selfish in my pursuit of the, of the art.

George Milton 37:49

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, different seasons of life, um, and all of that stuff. Uh, but you're in, you, you and Jess are running small potatoes now. You, you mentioned that right before the break. And, um, it, it's interesting, and I think we can kind of dig into this a little bit, is that you had this like hugely, I mean, I, I feel like I read. About ccs and maybe it was around the ink list that you guys were like 42000% growth or something, like, something, some monumental number like that. So you were, you were on this like rocket ship, this nationally distributed, you know, company. You know, you're making Top 10 magazine lists for. Entrepreneurship, you know, took a bunch of money from private equity. O obviously everybody's got a kind of a different idea of what a bunch of money means, but you know, it took some private equity money and small potatoes seems to me to be maybe not a middle finger to private equity, but at least the, at least a turning, you know, kind of turning your back on a very specific model for. A very different model. Te tell me about the model of, of of small potatoes and how that kind of fits in with the puzzle and how it fits in with, you know, your journey with, uh, ccs and all that sort of stuff.

Mason 39:13

Yeah. So, um, you know, ccs, uh, in addition to. Uh, you know, I knew I had baggage from green laying that I was dealing with and backing off and, and ccs the

George Milton 39:27

Oh, let's.

Mason 39:27

of it was kind of traditional success. I wanted to grow it and sell it. Um, it, you know, produces is a very high risk, um, category, uh, for a lot of reasons weather. Uh, you know, pathogens are harder to control in produce. There's all these, uh, kinds of things I did. You know what? I couldn't bootstrapped it for the first two years knowing that as soon as I took outside money, I was on a. A very specific timetable, and you're either growing or you're handing the company over to, uh, your investors. And so, um, and growing two, you know, decided, uh, benchmarks for it or ones that you sold. When you were raising the money Now I tried to be, uh, always tried to be clear and was clear like,

George Milton 40:18

We don't know where.

Mason 40:19

the, you know, ceiling is on this, we're growing super fast now. Here's the total market available. Who knows where we're gonna land. Uh, you know, in, in the middle there. Um. And

George Milton 40:31

So, you know.

Mason 40:32

it was to grow it quickly. And for that we needed outside money. I tried to get debt for the facility build. We built out first 40,000 square feet and then we added 20,000, uh, here in Austin and it was a$6 million build. Um, I was trying to raise bank debt for that with. I didn't even have two years of tax returns yet. And they're like, you're like, you're kidding, right, Mason? And I'm like, no, but you know this, this is growing fast and we need it. And we have, you know, we had Costco and Publix, two of the largest accounts in the US so we're like, we want it. When can we get it? We want it right now. And we couldn't deliver to them. So I was like, we absolutely have to do this and we have to do it as fast as we can. I had one bank that, um. You know, they came back and they were like, yeah, the investment committee just doesn't believe you. And I'm like, what? What do, what do you, what do you mean? Like, what, what statement did they not believe? And they're like, they don't believe your, um, growth. And I'm like. Do you, I mean, I've, you say I'm lying on my financial documents. Like, do you, I can send you the pos, like there's, the money is flowing in. How do you not believe it? and they're like, they just, they just don't believe it. And I'm like, that is so

George Milton 41:47

That's crazy.

Mason 41:48

It's crazy. And I'm like, it's, but you can see the money in the bank account like it's coming in and so the growth is, is happening. Um. And I'm like, all right, I guess it is time to go get equity capital. And I, you know, I knew that it started that timetable. Also, investors, there's a, a fundamental, uh, conflict of interest, uh, that is always there between a founder and an investor. Where an investor, the whole point of their investment is to make more money than they put in. And a founder is working off of different goals and visions, and you can often get'em really close. And there are investment groups that are. patient capital and, uh, have different metrics and family offices that are going for, for very specific things where they are more concerned about impact on the world. And so all these things exist, but they, and none of'em, invests money saying, you know, I expect to lose this except for philanthropy, which is not an investment, it's a gift. So, um,

George Milton 42:50

It's always.

Mason 42:51

that conflict of interest. And at some point it often creates real tension that causes, um, you know, founders to, uh. Compromise it on things that maybe they never thought they'd co have to compromise on or don't want to or think. It changes the company fundamentally. But if the vision that they had is not one that makes money and continues to grow and makes money, then they have to change their vision. If they're on this path of we want to Interest and grow and sell for, uh, gobs of money. And so small potatoes were, that is not the path that we are seeking. And so we can't take, uh, you know, like private equity investment capital because we would not be able to look at them and say, yeah, you know. If this path on this one thing doesn't make money, then we're gonna change it to something that does make money. If, if that path is something that can just be sustainable, not make money, but make enough money to make the product. And

George Milton 44:08

So

Mason 44:09

at a healthy rate, then, you know, we're gonna do it. And we're not going to spend money to accelerate growth if we don't know exactly what that money, how, what growth that money is gonna create and, and how, and we'd, uh, you know, to date we have not, spent any money to grow that, um, you know, wasn't. Uh, profitable money that we are spending, like putting profits back in, into the company to grow. And if we can, you know, make a lot of profits and we know that we can accelerate growth with those profits, then you know, we're gonna do it. But fundamentally, the business model is, um, you know, different than the standard, really any kind of, uh, startup. Mm-hmm.

George Milton 44:59

What is the business model? You go into distressed companies or you go into, I imagine you probably talk to more like disillusioned to early stage food founders than anybody. Maybe I'm, maybe I'm wrong about that, but I.

Mason 45:15

you're right. And, um, you know, often times I'm, know, con uh, I guess validating, like no, what you, what you tried to do was good. And you, you can't, what you set out to do can't be done in this, uh, current, at least the current market of, um, CPG. I think we are in a very, um, we're in a, we're in a, as challenging a market as there has been, but also, uh, know, there are, I I think there's still, there's, there's opportunities. And the reason why I think it's challenging, I think it is overcrowded. I think COVID, ID. I mean it probably like more than 50% of the companies that I talked to, um, that are in distress, uh, they started in COVID'cause they had a bunch of time and like now they're like, okay, well now we either need to make money or not consume our time. They either need to not consume money or not consume time. And a lot of'em haven't gotten to the point where either one of those is viable. So the business model for small potatoes, phase one. Was distressed to find companies where we thought the products were great, that they served, uh, consumers in a positive way, and could, if, if they weren't oriented around aspects of sustainability, that we could work on that and make them, you know, better, both for their consumers and for the environment. We stayed away from anything that was. You know, chemicals or anything that, that we didn't think was good for people. Um, and so we would acquire companies in distress. Uh, part of our model to increase margins and get these companies out of distress is to consolidate operations. So we have a production facility in Georgetown, Texas where we make products for about like 15 to 20 different companies. Um, just a select few of those are portfolio brands, but we also do co-manufacturer for other companies that

George Milton 47:24

Are.

Mason 47:25

at, at, at least at this point, have the capital they need to, um. Whether the, the storm of the overcrowded CPG market or, or they're seeing good growth but need, uh, manufacturing.'cause there's also a gap in the market right now for, um, small batch, uh, manufacturing. And so we're trying to do that in a way that, you know, helps, um. us, uh, viable economically, but also allows us to help small companies grow.

George Milton 47:55

so.

Mason 47:56

we have acquired a handful of companies, uh, moved everyone into our facility. We do all of our own fulfillment as well. Um, DC retail builds and we offer three PL services to our koman, uh, clients also, and really increase the margins by operational consolidation. And then. The phase that we're moving into right now is around innovation. And so we've been running, uh, just really fun innovation cycles, uh, for our portfolio companies and then, you know,

George Milton 48:30

Offering.

Mason 48:30

it to our co-man, uh, clients as well that we can run, you know, pretty, very capital efficient innovation cycles to come up with new products or make products better. Um. And, uh, you know, in that way we want to create sustainable, growing, uh, small food brands that are, you know, helping the world be a better place.

George Milton 48:52

I love that that's giving me all the feels, just hearing you explain it. Uh, for all the, for all of the, uh, like early stage food founders who just heard that and said, oh man, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Small potatoes. Life is where you can learn more. Uh, so we won't say that for the end of the show with small potatoes, life, um. I think that's a really cool and refreshing business model. I do think that it's, I mean, it is one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on is just I think that, um, you've got some experience doing it. I mean, you've got experience doing it a bunch of different ways. Um, this kind of like rocket ship, um, that you did at CC'S is. That's hard to repeat. And it's also, it's also pretty hard to live. Um, you know, I've also lived parts of that and wasn't exactly what I thought I signed up for. I mean, it's, you know, like you take the, you know, you take the, like VC or the private equity money and it's, um, I, I heard it. I heard it. Uh. I'm gonna, I'm gonna screw this up, but I heard it described to me by a kind of a serial, I wouldn't, I don't know if I'd say entrepreneur, but a serial kind of like CEO, like somebody who had gone in to a VC or or PE funded companies and over and over and over again and was like, uh, yeah, the hired gun. And he was like, he was like, he was like, man, that like, you know. The best dinners I've ever had are those like dinners when you're signing on to, you know, the greatest wine, you know, like it's, you get treated so nice and then like you feel the gun at the back of your head. He's like, you, he's like, you leave that, he's like, you leave the dinner and you feel the gun at the back of your head and you spend the next like 36 months just outrunning the, you know, outrunning the bullet that's making its way in slow motion down the chamber. And it was like. Um, I, I, I don't think that, uh, I don't think I'd be friends with this person anymore if I outed them for staying that particular phrase, but it is, it is. I was like, oh man, that was, you know, like I've, I've had one, I've had one run at it. And I think you've had one run in that edit, right? In that particular kinda scenario where like you didn't necessarily. You signed up to be an entrepreneur and to be, and to kind of make change in the food system and make the world a better place and all that sort of stuff, you didn't necessarily sign up to be like a pe CEO. It's a different, um.

Mason 51:26

Yeah. Yeah. And once, and they, when, once the PE group, uh, took control, it was, I think C round You know, they wanted me to still behave as if I was a. You know, founder operator, and I'm like, yeah, but, but, but I'm not like, it's your company now. And I'm happy to, you know, continue. Like, I think we've got a good vision and, and we're aligned. I'm like, but I'm not gonna be, um, killing myself the way that I did the first couple of years, um, with it. And that, you know, it, it's a change and it's your decision now. And I'm, I'm not gonna. You know, present myself to the team as if it's all, um, that, that it's still me making the decisions. And,

George Milton 52:17

And I.

Mason 52:18

it, I was very glad I did that because then there came a time when I, they changed like the way that,'cause I was very generous with equity early on with employees and. They didn't like that and they walked back some of that when we, um, you know, when the company hit, uh, a rough patch and, you know, equity value decreased and they could recapture, um, equity, uh, for, uh, cheaply from employees who had received it. And they, and they did that. And I understand.

George Milton 52:50

Why did.

Mason 52:51

did that. And I explained to the people that, you know, they were looking after their capital and their capital was not, uh, you know, the return path wasn't looking as promising as it was before. And so they needed to, to juice those returns. But it, uh, you know, really pissed off some, some people and got people, you know, mad at, at me as, as well. Um, I, I, during it. And you know, the thing that, the thing about that company, so I think people who grow companies to hundreds of, uh, millions of dollars. Um, they do, they're, they're amazing entrepreneurs. Um, I don't think they're anymore amazing than. The zero to one entrepreneurs, and I personally don't enjoy the activities of growing a company from, um, you know, 20 million to hundreds of millions. I, I got a taste of that and I'm like, wow, this stuff is not. Uh, fun as the zero to 20 million. Um, and so that's like my primary, uh, you know, one of my drivers for small potatoes, and it's called small potatoes because that's what, you know, I'm putting a stake in a flag there that I, I like the, um, small business and I don't think there's anything less about that, but I do like, I feel. Uh, you know, even, even though I've had one of these successes, I still like, feel this, uh, judgment sometimes from these larger company, uh, founders or CEOs where it's like, well, why aren't you running big companies? I'm like,'cause I don't want to. It's, I don't think it's fun.

George Milton 54:35

I know exactly what you're talking about, but te tell me some of those things that are different, like zero to 20 versus 20 to a hundred or whatever. Because I think beyond a hundred, it's even a, yeah, I mean that's, you're almost talking like IPO companies and like publicly traded companies at that point. So

Mason 54:53

Yeah.

George Milton 54:53

are some of the things that's different?

Mason 54:56

You know, um, like I, I. Once we hit 20 million and we're growing one, innovation cycles slowed down like dramatically, and it would take a year and a half to get a new product to market. Um, compared to. You know, at small potatoes, we can do it in, in three months and start testing, um, you know, consumer feedback on it and iterating and, you know, searching for that, um, you know, kind of perfect product that hits all the, hits, consumer trends and, and helps the world. So, um, the, the main thing for me was innovation. Now when we are going from, uh, 20 million plus, uh, there's a full executive team at that point and and board. And so everything had to be, every idea to be negotiated because the, the risk of. An idea of failure. When innovation cycles are longer and more expensive and everyone's involved, the risk is more for ideas. And if the idea fails, it can be expensive and take a bunch of time. And

George Milton 56:14

I understand why,

Mason 56:15

needs to be a lot more negotiation for it,

George Milton 56:17

but I don't. I don't.

Mason 56:18

think in today's market.

George Milton 56:21

That's why going.

Mason 56:22

companies move slower and, and can't innovate because of, uh, the risks of it. And I would rather be in a space where we can, uh, you know, play more and then, you know, not to make, so there's all the negotiations and all the egos and everyone is smart in the room and I enjoyed that part of it. I enjoyed kind of the, um. You know, really the, uh, the complex negotiations and, and jockeying to try to get something going.

George Milton 56:52

What I didn't realize was

Mason 56:54

as a bigger company, you're, you're literally automatically going to get sued. Frivolously multiple times. People just trying to, um, get a handout. And

George Milton 57:07

that.

Mason 57:07

uh, is really infuriating to me. Um, and then, you know, also ensuring where it's, there's more meetings about HR handbooks and you have to be more protective of the company, so you have to. ex the, the appearance is that you care less about the employees because you can't say the things that mean you care and you can't do things that mean more you care because the liability of it and the, and the risk of it. And if you do risky things or do something for one person, you have to do it for everyone. And if you can't do it for everyone, then that's discrimination. And so there's a just a. The complexity of, of trying to build, um, a team, um, was also less fun.

George Milton 57:58

Yeah, I gotcha. And I also like, like small potatoes, I feel like people use in the, like in the pejorative, like they use it as a derogatory term. Like, oh man, that's small potatoes. And you're like, yeah, fucking it is small potatoes, small business man.

Mason 58:12

Yep. Yep. Yeah, that's why I love it. I used to always, I, I've a lot. I, I prefer to be underestimated, um, because then that leaves a lot of space, uh, you know, to, to do what you want and then also to over deliver.

George Milton 58:28

Yeah, so like if small potatoes is a, is a stays a small company that. Operates like meaningful brands and makes positive change and flows some money to the bottom line and takes care of its partners and you know, stakeholders and stuff. That's a success. If small potatoes become, becomes the next billion dollar, you know, food company just from running in a really like sustainable way, that's also a huge success. Like you can't fail with a model like small potatoes. I'm saying. I'm saying here. I hope that's a good, I hope that's a good prediction. Yeah.

Mason 59:05

because I, uh, you know, I'm still, uh, I still fear failure and I see ways, um, you know, I, I see risks and things that could, um, you know, take us down or ways that could become not financially sustainable, but one of the. You know, people are like, well, what do you do with these comp? What if a company does take off and starts growing really fast? I'm like, I would love to then pass it off to a group that I believe are doing things for the right reason, and would n. Much rather, they need a company that's already at 10 million and, and has a solid growth path and they're the ones that can, you know, invest capital in the right way to grow.'cause I, I, I think once you get beyond. if, if you're selling in retail, you absolutely have to have some deep pockets behind you once you hit national, um, distribution because one, you know, disco could, could completely destroy a company if you don't have, um, capital behind it. So, or you just have to be really careful about it, or really secure in what you're doing, which is, you know, what we're going for now, that if we were to. Um, sign back on. Some of our brands have national distribution. Most of'em are kind of fading away from, from that because we, potatoes don't have the resources to support national campaigns and,

George Milton 1:00:36

Yeah,

Mason 1:00:37

distribution. But companies we bought had it and we were gonna see those out to their, to their end. Um, and

George Milton 1:00:44

I.

Mason 1:00:44

there is a way to gain that, where we're like, we are so confident based on our velocities at other stores. That are comparable and looking, evaluating their set and price matrix and all of that, we're so confident that we're gonna be successful that, you know, we'll jump into bed with a, a target or, um, you know, a, um, uh, some other major, uh, retailer because we know that we're gonna succeed. Um, but, uh, lots of brands are like hoping that that distribution is what then brings them success, but, um, it could just as likely take the company down.

George Milton 1:01:19

I think there's potentially like, that's interesting for you to say.'cause I think you know, the same way that there's a gap in the market for. Kind of this mid-size like co-manufacturer. I think there's also, I, I see this more and more now, right? Because like the investing profiles have changed a, like, the market's just changed a lot in the last 10 years where you've got like the, the answer to like, what do you do with a profitable$3 million food brand is like, nobody fucking knows. You know, like, but like nobody knows what to do with it. I'm like, and, and I'm like. Almost constantly talking to people who have something that they've proved the success of it, right? They've, to a certain degree, but they're like, Hey, I want to gain more distribution on this. There used to be kind of a pathway for like, I've got a$3 million brand that's got some traction and has, you know, some sales and is, you know, as profitable and winning in these particular channels. Like in 2017, you kind of had a pitch that was a pitch. That was like a pitch you could go make to, and there was a, there were a bunch of funds who, who would hear a pitch like that? Right? And the number of funds who's like, who want to pitch like that, that is like a, oh, call me when you get to 20 million is like a lot of'em now. And it's like, well how, how the fuck do you do that? How do you get from three, you know what I mean? Like, how do you get from 3 million to 20 million in the food industry with like no additional support. Right? Because at some point. You could make the argument that, like, you could go make that with one account. Like, but for in, in my category, for instance, you can't. Really make that with one account, right? You've gotta, you've gotta be kind of like a omnichannel operator. So like, to get from 3 million to 20 million often means that you've got to have some support for like a national campaign somewhere. Even if that's just like Publix or Target or pick one, right? Or you're going hard on Amazon or something like that. So it's like, there, there is kind of this like, uh, like dead zone, but you know, earlier than 20 million. And at least in food, uh, in food brands right now. And I feel like I hear about this all the time, so like I feel like there's a huge opportunity to kind of like be the, you know, maybe be the middleman in there who will take on some of that risk, but maybe not the full, like zero to one risk that you're talking about and say like, Hey, you've got a bunch of really passionate slash crazy people who will go do zero to one. Or one to three or one to five, um, and kind of don't know how to get it up the hump. I, I think that there's potentially like a really big, um, a really big play in, in just being like a, hey, we'll kind of deal with some of this middle market stuff that nobody wants to touch. And then, and, and then it's like, okay, if you get, if you get some that are like. Past 20 and you're like, okay, well our team doesn't really, like, I don't wanna deal with all the B, like I don't wanna have a, I don't wanna have, I don't wanna have board meetings every time I wanna, you know, every time I wanna like, you know, add a company holiday or try a new product. Or if I, like, I don't wanna have a board meeting every time I want to make some tiny decision, um, then maybe there's other groups that are more suited for that. So. That's cool, man. I'm, I'm excited about what you guys are doing. Like, when I first read small potatoes, I was like, I just, the name was like, oh, I get it. You know?

Mason 1:04:46

Yeah.

George Milton 1:04:47

I was like, that's a, that's an exactly Mason Arnold, like, you know what I mean? That's exactly.

Mason 1:04:54

Yeah.

George Milton 1:04:55

Well, we're, we're coming up on, on, coming up on time. I, I would ask one more question, and this'll probably be, because I, I'm hoping that, um, of any of my episodes, I'm hoping that this one gets shared around to kind of some earlier stage folks, just because of the experience that you've had and especially what you're doing with small potatoes now and with, uh, uh, the puzzle. So I had, I had small potatoes pulled up. You can, uh. Follow small potatoes@smallpotatoes.life. What is the puzzle website? How do I, how do people follow the puzzle? I don't have it in front of me.

Mason 1:05:28

The puzzle life. So I'm all about the, I'm all about the.life,

George Milton 1:05:33

the life.

Mason 1:05:34

TLD'cause it's, it's cheap. Uh, none of the domains are taken. And so it's literally, I, I am like, I've got a new idea and I go enter it into GoDaddy and the.com has been taken long ago. And, and right there is life.

George Milton 1:05:51

Dude.

Mason 1:05:51

the things that I'm doing are. Are more about lifestyle and, uh, you know, they're, they're not about the commerce.

George Milton 1:06:01

Yeah. Yeah. The con, I mean, commerce is important, but I mean, if I'm talking about what are you optimizing for, it's about lifestyle. It's about making the world, uh, a better place, and you're pretty actively doing that. I appreciate. I appreciate the hell out of that one. One last question that I want to ask you and the answer to this is probably 30 minutes long or longer by itself, but if you could go back,'cause you know, like talking about, uh. Greening aging you 20 years and 10 years, you know? Um, and, and talking about like some of the, some of the hurdles with ccs and the successes and the imposter syndrome and the like, oh, you actually, you know, probably do deserve some of this stuff. If you could go back to like 2005, like about to start greening. Mason Arnold, which is where I imagine a lot of people are sitting, you know today, a lot of people who are listening to this or reading my newsletter or potentially reading your newsletter or publication or blog or whatever the hell we're calling it that are sitting there saying like, Hey, should I do this thing? What would you go back and say to like 2005 Mason before. Like knowing what you know now and not wanting to too badly, screw up the space time continuum.

Mason 1:07:23

Well, uh, the, yeah, there's some interesting points there.'cause one you say, uh,'cause there are a lot of people in that space when. Um, I, you know, oddly, uh, question has, uh, come up, uh, several times, uh, recently. And, you know, my, uh, answer is, uh, you know, either, uh, the, the anti answer or just skirting the question, but I like, I love. My life. I love where I am. I feel I appreciate the challenges that I've had to go through the, um, you know, struggles that I've had to go through. I don't have, um, regrets. I think everything that I've done to this day has built me. I, there's, you know, things that have hurt other people that I regret, but in terms of like myself,

George Milton 1:08:20

I don't.

Mason 1:08:20

have any regrets to myself. And so if I were to. To go back and, and meet 2005 Mason Arnold, I'd say, Hey, how's it going? See you later. I'm busy.

George Milton 1:08:31

do, uh, you just do the Michael Kane, like Christian Bale. Like Batman nod.

Mason 1:08:38

um, I've, I'm not familiar

George Milton 1:08:40

okay.

Mason 1:08:41

that the, is a, old

George Milton 1:08:43

Yeah. Well, it's, yeah.

Mason 1:08:46

Yeah. So I think everything that I've done to this point has been critical to get me to this point. And, and I love life, so, so I wouldn't change a thing. And so I wouldn't tell, uh, 2005 Mason, um, anything. And if I were to tell other entrepreneurs that are in currently, um, you know, situations similar to a 2005 Mason, the, I think the only thing that I would say is, is to, um. Try to, try to find that alignment for what you are optimizing for. Um, and so, you know, do do some research and, and try to understand it as best you can, but nobody can understand it. More than their current status in life allows them to and experience is the best way to get a better notion of, of all of that. And, uh, you know, it's as entrepreneurship is as good as an experience, as, as

George Milton 1:09:42

Together.

Mason 1:09:42

for learning, um, trials and, and tribulations. So, um, I think we're all on our own, uh, path and our own journey and, and, uh, you know, I wish everyone well.

George Milton 1:09:55

I love that. Um, was that the non-answer or the, which one was that?

Mason 1:09:59

non-answer was that I wouldn't tell myself any because you, you, you posed two questions. One was, what would you tell yourself? And then you're like, but there's other people

George Milton 1:10:07

yeah.

Mason 1:10:08

I'm like, okay,

George Milton 1:10:09

You're right. I gotta, I gotta do better about just asking a single question. I'm so bad at that. Uh, but I, but it sounds like I, one, one of the, one of the things I heard in there, maybe I'm, uh, maybe I'm making it up, but figure out maybe what you want, like what's your goal, I think is, um, uh, a good, a good question to ask. Um,'cause it,'cause I think you,

Mason 1:10:32

it's

George Milton 1:10:33

you can, you can design your business and your life kind of around that, right.

Mason 1:10:39

Yeah. Um, but I'd caution not to, you know, uh, for, to allow it to be malleable. I, I think we do need to set goals in order to measure what we've done.'cause if we're just floating through things, then. You know, you don't even know if you are, uh, heading in the right direction. So I think direction is important. Um, but also most of the goals that I set as a young entrepreneur, I wouldn't set, uh, as an entrepreneur now. And, um, you know, I think are, uh, are. are, aren't good goals anymore. So I, I think it's, IM important to set some short term goals and then look at how your actions and behaviors, um, align with kind of your internal compass as you're trying for that goal. And then change the goal at will.

George Milton 1:11:35

That's awesome, man. Uh, well, I, it's flown by. I appreciate you giving me, you've been very generous with your time today. Um, is there anything you wanna plug, aside from the puzzle life and small potatoes life, are there any more lifes that we should visit this afternoon?

Mason 1:11:50

No, but I think I, I do wanna say one more thing on the puzzle, um, that I, I have become really grounded in this idea that, that we can build. Meaning from the ground up and through daily action and that it's what I have been applying to my life is this cycle of, um, presence. I have a tattoo that says chop wood carry water, which is a Buddhist, uh, parable to remind me to stay present and to be engaged with the thing that's in front of me. And then. Have self-reflection cycles of like, did that feel good? Did it really feel, did it feel aligned with what my brain wanted to do? Or was it extra effort to get my brain to actually do the things that I was doing? And then just, and then it's like a constantly moving, um, compass based on the, you know, experience. And so to me, um, I think it's a, that, that's a, a profound. Idea and, and framework for looking at life that had I, uh, discovered earlier, I may be further along in, in my journey than I am.

George Milton 1:13:11

I think that you're, I mean, from my perspective, you're having a very interesting journey, so I can't wait to come visit you in Georgetown. I hope that that invite will stay, uh, will stay open even though I didn't get to make it up there today. Uh, you guys have been listening to Mason Arnold on gross to net follow. I follow all of our stuff. Uh, subscribe to gross to net for more amazing people like Mason. And, uh, we'd love you and I'll talk to you guys next time. Bye-bye.