AI for Sales Teams Without Sounding Like a Bot | Craig (ex-Cheesies)

AI is everywhere in sales right now — and most of what people are doing either turns into spam, or it’s so complicated nobody uses it.

In this episode of Makin Mighty: The Challenger Sessions, Simon Greenwood-Haigh speaks with Craig — founder of Cheesies and a commercial operator/consultant turned AI practitioner — about how challenger brands can use AI to sell more without losing their human edge.

We cover:

•  why sales is one of the safer career paths in an AI world (and what will actually change) 
•  the biggest misuse Craig sees: generic inputs leading to generic output 
•  a practical “start here” setup (Claude Pro, global instructions, connectors, and better prompting) 
•  how to keep AI outreach human, on-brand, and believable 
•  what Craig learned building Cheesies: focus on a single audience and spot early traction signals 
•  what he’d do differently if starting a brand today with AI agents from day one 
•  Craig’s new venture, The Expedition, helping FMCG leaders integrate AI properly 

Link:
 www.makinmighty.com

If you found this useful, please share it with someone building a food or drink brand who’d get value from it.

You can follow me on LinkedIn, TikTok or Instagram for clips and extra insights: just search for @MakinMighty

And if you’ve got a question you’re wrestling with right now (brand, growth, retail, positioning) email it in. We’re collecting real questions from founders and we’ll use those to shape future episodes.

Thanks for listening. See you next time

makinmighty@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

You're listening to Make It Mighty, the Challenger Sessions. I'm Simon Grimward Hay. I'm a fractional commercial lead for food and drink brands that think like challengers. Today's episode is a bit different and it's properly useful. I'm joined by Craig, who's built an iconic challenger brand, Cheesy's, and now helps teams to integrate AI into sales in a way that actually works. Because let's be honest, most AI sales chat either turns into spam or it's so complicated that nobody bloody uses it. In this episode, we're gonna cut through that. We get into what AI is genuinely good for, where it goes wrong, and how challenger brands can use it to sell more without losing their human edge. Let's get into the episode. Craig, thanks for joining us, mate. Really, really appreciate your time. Really appreciate you coming on. Um before we get into it, could you give us just like a one-minute intro so people know who you are, please?

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Thank you so much for having me on. So uh my career, I suppose, is slightly unusual in FMCG terms. Uh, I've had essentially three tracks to it. I started off as a commercial operator, so I started my career at Innocent Drinks working on the Tesco account and went through the usual path of going from commercial exec to NAM to senior NAM controller and so on. The second track has been as a commercial consultant. So I've helped businesses ranging from pre-launch just when they had an idea. So the likes of Delicious Liella, Clean Co., SeedLip, just before they got started, all the way through to covering the Tesco account for Mars Wrigley. So when they were merging, when Wrigley's were merging with Mars, covered that for six months. So a real broad spectrum. I've also been a founder. So the third track is that I've been a founder of a few different businesses, including a drinks brand in the Cordials and Squash category. And then I had Cheesies, which was my savoury snacking brand. We scaled that to have millions of packs sold up and down the UK, even sold into Europe as well. I am now the founder of the NAMBA, which is like a mini MBA for junior account managers. It's all about setting them up for success in their career. And then I have also just co-founded a new venture called The Expedition. And this is where we're going to be coaching founders and senior leaders how to go from knowing they need to do something with AI to setting them up practically, tailored to them individually, and start transforming their output, which I'm sure is some of the stuff that we'll get into today. But yeah, lots of things to keep me busy.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Amazing. I mean, it's a it must give you a unique, a very unique perspective. Having done kind of big corp, having done the bootstrap challenger version, seeing all those struggles with founders, and then and then into um into what you're doing now. And obviously, we've worked together on the NAMBA stuff. You've worked with some of the teams that I've worked with, and the impact is pretty it's pretty phenomenal and pretty instant. So that experience and that unique perspective really carries through. So that's um yeah, amazing. So yeah, thank you for coming on.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

No, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Thanks. The first question I ask um anybody I speak to um is specifically around kind of the word challenger. So when you think about challenger and being a challenger brand in food and drink in particular, what does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 3:56

I mean, I've I've heard some of the previous guests say that uh it's a mindset, essentially, being a challenger is a mindset. And I would I would agree with that. I think it means not just accepting things for the way they are, it means asking why. Why is it being done this way? And I think challengers have a level of curiosity and willing to be willing to go on an adventure and discovery, not knowing they're sort of happy walking down a path, they don't know where it's going to lead, yet they walk down it anyway. I think what I would also say is what a time to be a challenger right now as well. Because never has the playing field been so level. And I think for the self-starters, the people that have got agency, those the people with the entrepreneurial spirit, I think this may well be the most exciting time in history. Um, because as I said, um with the work I'm doing in AI, I think this uh is really leveling the play field, and uh you're gonna see some of these challenges taken on the big corporates, very small teams of 10, 20, 30 people taking on a business of 10,000.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Amazing. I mean, it to be it's the first time, um, and and it's a great, it's a great word for it, that kind of kind of adventure, that that sense of curiosity. But but that is what being a challenge is about. It's that um we were chatting before we started recording about building building the planes you fly was the phrase you used, which that's that's part of the challenge of mindset. So yes, it's about disrupting, being rebellious, but if you're not curious and and you're not having to peek around the corner, you're just gonna run around the thing, um, that that that is part of the mindset as well. Um yeah, brilliant. Yeah, definitely. So getting into the into the the bones of what we really want to discuss, which is AI. So when people say um AI in sales, what do they what do they usually mean? And then what do you think it should mean in practice?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

I mean, I I think when anyone thinks about AI in sales or in any field, almost like the first question that springs to mind is uh is that is it gonna take my job? Right? There's this like underlying fear that AI is gonna come in and take over. And I just categorically do not believe that to be the case. There is a slight nuance to it. I think the people that are using AI will take the jobs of people not using it because they're gonna be so much more ahead because and they're gonna be so much more productive. But I do think specifically within sales, it's one of the more protected career paths. Granted, I'm probably somewhat biased given my background, but like having gone deep with AI over the last couple of years, like I do genuinely think it's one of the safer career paths. Because I think as the digital world becomes busier and busier, you know, people are going to want to go back to more, there's gonna be a clamour almost for human interaction and that one-to-one selling. Now, what AI can't do is those the actual phone calls, the video calls, the meeting for coffee in person, those buyer meetings, the big pitches. But what it can do, and what I think is most exciting for salespeople, is that it's gonna be able to do a lot of the things that they don't enjoy doing. Like I don't know about you, Sai, but I don't know many people that work in sales that enjoy doing things like analysis, doing admin, all like the promo forms and all of that stuff, forecasting, prospecting, internal updates. These are the things that do not give most salespeople energy. And this is where I think, when done in the right way, AI can alleviate all of this. So that's workload and get salespeople doing what they do best, which is being out there selling.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

And I think one of the points you touched on around that kind of that fear. Um, I was I was I get to speak to a lot of a lot of different founders, and one of them I shouted to the other day were talking about it being almost the it was the the kind of uncanny, that that thing that I can't quite put my finger on, therefore I don't trust it. And that there's that side of things, is it gonna steal my job? Is it gonna make me immediately outdated? Um but I think you're right, that blend of human and machine is is an exciting future. But to your point, if I could have not been doing fucking new line forms and been out strategizing and help building better relationships and coming up with creative ideas, I would have been a better salesperson. I know I was um definitely so thinking about some of some of the ways people are using it now that you've come across, think about common ways that founders and sales teams might be misusing AI right now. But what what are you seeing?

SPEAKER_01 8:45

I think most people, in my experience, have absolutely no idea about what's here right now. And I'm not talking about what's coming in the future, and but I'm talking about right now. There is a tidal wave of change on the shore, yet most people are standing with their back to it and not realizing what's already here. And I think that's because they're using things like Copilot, Microsoft Copilot. Uh, they're getting some okay responses, and I think they're also seeing quite a bit of AI slop out there on LinkedIn, on email, and even from I think I'm hearing quite a lot from internal updates and reports where they're just copying and pasting something and sending it over. And I think that's leading to particularly the senior leaders, almost labelling AI as not very good and beginning to dismiss it. But I think if they knew or their teams knew how to use it properly, they'd realize they could get phenomenal outputs and operate at a speed that they just couldn't have even comprehended before. So I think most founders and sales teams are, in my view, giving AI generic inputs. So they're getting generic outputs. They're not tailored specifically to them as an individual or as a business. And they're only using the LLMs, the large language models, which is ChatGPT, ClawChat, Copilot, and they're not moving into where it gets really interesting, which is on the agentic AI. We don't need to get into the weeds too much in terms of the definitions, but essentially agentic AI is when it starts to complete tasks on your behalf and it becomes like an employee that works for you, but that employee can morph into every possible role that you could imagine. And so that's where I think yeah, we're seeing this. We will begin to see a transition of people upskilling, moving away from just the the standard co-pilot chat generic. You know, it was it was amazing when it first came out, but now we move into this agentic AI where it becomes so much more powerful.

unknown 10:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Um, and in terms of I think what what I try and do with uh with these these podcasts is try and give some really practical advice to people that might be listening. So if we assume there's a challenger brand out there, tiny team, maybe just founder and more of the hire, that don't have a fancy stack, what would what would you suggest as kind of a simple way to start using AI? Assume they've done nothing, but if they could start something this month that's genuinely going to help, what would you suggest?

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah. I I would start, let's break it down into some really clear steps and keep it as simple as possible. The first thing to do is go and buy yourself a Claude Pro account, right? Absolutely non-negotiable. Stop using free versions, you need to be paying. It's$20 a month just to get started. I you I cannot tell you how valuable it is. That is the first point. Get Claude. It's the bet in my experience by far the best. It's one I go to what I'm training people on at the moment. So when you've got your Claude Pro account and you've opened it up, use Claude Co-Work as the second step, not Claude Chat and the chat bots that everyone's been used to dealing with. You've got Claude Co-work as the and start reading up on what it is. And this comes back to this agentic AI where it can complete tasks on your behalf. The third thing to be doing is giving it far more context about you and how you work and what types of the outputs that you want, how you want it to write. So you can go into Claude and in the there is and in the settings and the instructions, you can give it global instructions, which you brief it on who you are, what your role is, the projects that you're working on, how you like to receive information. That's the next big thing. Um what else is there to be doing? Uh then, sorry, it's the fourth the fourth step, which is um connecting all of your apps. So if you've got Gmail, Slack, HubSpot, uh I mean all the Microsoft Suite connects into co-work as well. You can go in and see the long list of connectors because what that does, it starts to enrich the AI with more information, it's pulling from more sources. So I've it's something I'm teaching people a lot and just repeat again and again of giving it more context, more understanding, beginning to treat it like it's a human, like it's an employee of yours, and you're onboarding them. That's the type of mindset to be getting into. And then the the fifth step is nailing like some just basic prompts and how to write prompts. Don't just give it a generic write me a report on X, Y, or Z. Like you can use this particular prompt structure. So there's three parts to it. The first is the role, the second is task that you want it to complete, and then the third is context. And I'll give you an example of how that can actually be used. So the role will be what do you want it to do? So in our world, in the world of ours, you might say, I want you to act as a veteran category analyst who specializes in manipulating vast amounts of data and turns that into compelling narratives for retailers. The task would be analyse this attached spreadsheet, pull out the key insights and put them in a one pager for me to share with my buyer. And then the context will be it could be, you know, you could just write and write and write and say, this is the background to the brand, this is the products, this is the current state of play with the uh in terms of the relationship with the retailer. Just give it as much information as you possibly can in that prompt and just see, see what happens, see how much the the output improves just from doing a few of these things, giving it your custom instructions and how you like to work, connecting your tools, and then starting to write better prompts. And I think from there, once you start to get that stuff right, you can start to move into the more complex things. But that that is how I would recommend people get started.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

I think I think some of the some of the mindsets of how you consider AI and how you think about it are really I I certainly find really helpful. I feel like I'm still starting my AI journey to be honest, and I've made the made the transition from Chat GPT, which I've used to death, to Claude now, it's a bit scary, but I think so. One of the analogies I've heard about AI in general is almost think of it like a child prodigy. Super clever, will get things very quickly, but knows very little about the world because it's a child prodigy. Um, and then what you just described there. Imagine you're on boarding an employee, you wouldn't just go, Well, there's a server, go and find your own files because I've connected you to it. You would give it clear instruction, otherwise, you'd expect shit back, shit in, shit out.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Um, no, no, it's exactly right. It's so so much of it's about like I say, treat it like it's a human, that you would give it the guidance, you give it a job description. I mean, we don't need to get into it too much, but with my my team of agents that I have working for me, they all have job descriptions, they have KPIs, they have frameworks that are based on assuming that they have prior experience that they're bringing into the job. That's the way to start thinking about it. You've now got this employee or 10 or 20 or 50 that are at your fingertips. And how would you manage them? It's the same principles of managing a person as it should be when you're managing an autonomous agent and yeah, in with AI.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

I mean that's really helpful. Um, I think one of the one of the common things I'm I'm hearing is people using AI for outreach, which is great, a good use case. But one of the things that I also hear back is it just feels like generic noise. I can spot an AI inbound outreach um really clearly. So, from your experience, what you do, what kind of guardrails can you put in place to keep it human and on brand?

SPEAKER_01 17:06

I I completely agree. It is definitely one of people's biggest concerns, and and rightly so. I've I can spot it a mile off. I know when people are writing in that AI style. It's something I have worked really hard to try and get right, and it's still, I mean, I have spent months trying to perfect it, and it's still, I wouldn't say quite there. Um, it still requires as with most of the AI work, it will do 80, 90% of it, and then you have to finesse over the top, especially if you're fairly comfortable with particularly writing, say writing emails, doing LinkedIn posts and yeah, the copywriting, if you're fairly comfortable with that, you'll always want to do that last bit of finessing. I think what you can do is put some really clear to your question, put those really clear guardrails in place to keep it human. There's a few tips that I that I would give here. And the first is record as much of yourself as possible. So when you are on video calls, if you've got a buyer meeting or even an internal, just a one-to-one, record it, leave it running in the background. You can get the transcript from it. You can actually have the audio file and the video, give it to my work way of doing things, give it to Claude, and it will start to give it more of a feel for how you talk and the things that you say. Obviously, it picks up on when I do that, all my little quirks, and as we do, we say we repeat certain words and it picks up on all those things, which is fine, right? You want it to stay human. Then what you can do is create a swipe file. So if you think of if you uh bring in a copywriter to come and work for you, you would give them a swipe file of this is our best bit of copy that we did in email, or these are my favorite LinkedIn posts, even if it's not something that you have written yourself, it's your favorite swipe, your swipe file of your favorite writers and how they do it. You can provide that as well. So that gives it a framework to work within to know, okay, roughly this is the style that I need to be writing towards. You can also be incredibly explicit in your instructions. So a few, a few sort of points here. UK English only. As obviously, they've written all in the US. Make sure they're only using UK English. So in your instructions, say no M dashes. We see that a lot. That's a very common one. No overuse of hyphenated compound words. So things like when you say day-to-day and it's got the dashes in between. AI loves it for some reason. I'm not quite sure why it writes like that all the time, but you can tell it not to do that. And I think one final check that you can do whenever anything has been AI generated, any writing, just ask yourself, would I actually say this? Does this sound like me? And if I were challenged on it, would I know how to respond? Because that's something that I have definitely picked up on where people are doing that sort of generic copy and paste across, putting it into a presentation or writing it in a report. You sort of probe. And it's like, mmm, quite actually, I didn't actually write that because you don't know how to explain it properly. So a couple of sense checks there as well, just to make sure that uh everything has been written in your tone and in your voice.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

The checking and the would you and to be challenged on is a very interesting one. Because I I do see that a lot, uh, and some of it smells right potentially. Um, but it reminds me, so I think probably three years ago now, that I interviewed somebody for a role uh when I was still in ABF, and they the last task was uh was a presentation about one of the brands I was looking after. Um said, right, sell that to us, uh, tell us what you know about the brand and sell it back to us. And they they done a really good presentation, presented it with with lots of gusto. Anything I asked questions about, there was kind of nothing, it was all surface level, and then they made a claim about a brand collaboration with Coke in the 1980s or something. I was like, I'm sure I'd know if that happened. And he just I I challenged him on it. I said, Is this AI? Because that's not true. Uh and he was like, Yeah, it is. And I was like, Okay, well, we know because we own the brands that that didn't happen, and it was it was the first time my eyes got kind of open to it. He must have been early 20s, so it's he was more on more on his journey of kind of using chat GPT, but yeah, didn't didn't fact check and it can still get stuff wrong.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Um no, it does, and that's it, it's no, no, it doesn't no, not not at all. It can pull very obscure sources. I mean, right, this this think of uh the LLMs as the world's greatest librarian, right? We'll go through the depths of the internet to find something that it thinks is relevant, but it may not be completely accurate. And so uh you you need to have this is where I think there's certainly people that have got experience still need to be keeping an eye on things and making sure that it is actually doing the work right in the same way again as you would have with a human. It's not any different, right? It's you still when you hire Someone you're still making sure it's not just like delegate and leave it, so you make sure that the work has been done properly, and then over time you trust them to just run with it, and that's the same principle.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Okay, and thinking just just calling on some of your experience if we can. So building cheeses, let's pick out because there's quite a few um challenger brands that you've worked with that I could have picked out, but pick picking out cheeses in particular. Sure. So what did you what's what's something you learned about sales and growth that most founders, in your opinion, still still underestimate?

SPEAKER_01 22:35

There were two really big lessons from it. The first is being incredibly laser focused about who we were going after for the consumer occasion. When you are a challenger and you're bootstrapping, you're right at the very start, there's no money in the bank, you can't be a foot, you cannot afford to spend tens of thousands on marketing campaigns. So you've got to be really focused about it. And what we did with cheesies was because it was 100% cheese, nothing else, it was ideal for those that were doing the keto diet. And that was who we focused for the first 12 months. That was all we did. And this was back in the glory days of Facebook advertising when you could get a ROAS of seven or eight to one. And so we were just obviously putting a bit of money into that and getting the growth out of it. And that gave us our first really loyal fans that then allowed us to make the jump into a wider audience into year two and year three. Um, the the second part of it, and given that I have been fortunate to work on some really great brands over the last 15 years, I'm able to smell like when something is really working, when like it's getting amazing traction. And what we had in the early stages of cheesies was people were just like going like writing crazy reviews, not just like, oh, this is really nice, it's a really nice tasting product. It's like, I want to replace my blood with goat's cheese cheesies. Like that is how like obsessed people were with it. And we also had a because we did we started off just D to C and through our own website, we had a referral scheme where if someone bought the product, they then referred five of their friends, they would all get a 20% discount, and they would also get, I think it was 40% or maybe even been a half price discount. It was fairly significant in the early stages, 40% conversion rate we were getting from those people. So 40% of our customers were recommending it to five friends who were then converting. And so, like those early metrics were like, hey, we are really on to something here, and that's at which point okay, we need to get a bit of investment, or we need to stock up, we need to start talking to retail and all this. So it was like those looking for those early signs that yeah, it gave us something that this wasn't just a nice, yeah, this is an okay product, it's like this this has really got something.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Nice. Um, and so bringing it back to the conversation for today, if you were to go back to when you were starting cheeses with what you've got available now in AI, what would you do differently? And let's think about the first 90 days.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

I think now I would because I love to do this anyway, get my A3 pad out, and I would map out what my new team would look like of agents, and what that would be is I would essentially draw out an org chart of the different functions. So I would be thinking about sales, marketing, finance, supply chain, all the roles underneath it that I could be using AI to help me with, and to help to, I suppose, bring it to life. This would be doing things like if I my finance agent would be having a uh building the cash flow forecast right from day dot. And okay, right, this is this is where we're at, having a scheduled task each week where it sends me a report on Monday morning of this is our cash position, these are all the outgoings, these are all the incomings, these are the decisions that you need to make, this is what we need to adjust. That for me would be like from right from the very beginning away, of been let me allow me to sleep a little bit better, because I'm sure any of the founders listen to this will attest it. So that's one of the things that definitely keeps you awake at night is uh how you're gonna pay the bills. And then I think in the in the sales and marketing, again, or uh uh automating the outreach, the like the social content as well. Like they're able to do things now that I I just so wish was available a few years ago. So actually, Claude isn't so good for image generation and video, whereas say Gemini's nano banana, which is their image generation tool, is amazing for creating content. And so you can do things so much faster, costs it didn't cost hardly anything at all. And so it allows you to scale quicker with less, and uh, and it sort of I suppose brings us full circle to what I said at the very beginning, where I think this is the best time ever for a challenger brand. Uh the le the playing field has never been so level, and uh, if I was to go back and have my time again, then uh yeah, it'd be pretty exciting to build it out using AI.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Amazing. So we we need to watch out for what you're gonna launch next. Is that what is that what you're telling me?

SPEAKER_01 27:33

No, yeah, definitely not. No, I mean I I've I've got a fair bit on the plate already, but uh no, I've uh I've had a had a couple of cracks at it. I think I think I've had my go, not not again. I'm not sure my my wife would uh thank me for having another crack at doing a brand.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Well, maybe not. Neither to ask, needed to ask. Um so then uh wrapping it up then. Um so what's the that I think there's loads of really good stuff in there. So thank you so much. If there's one thing you want a challenger founder, somebody's working in a challenger brand business to hear from this today and then take one thing away, what what would that be?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

It it's to really start educating yourself on the change that's already here. I'm I'm still seeing a lot of, and I'm not gonna name any names, companies that everyone listening to this will have heard of that are still not doing anything with AI. Like hardly, I mean I'm so maybe a little bit of co-pilot use. Um, people need to get on board with it, otherwise they're gonna get enormously disrupted. And as yeah, I said earlier, AI isn't gonna take their jobs, but the people using AI will. Um, so yeah, the time is now, or is it was three months ago, you need to get get cracking on it, do all you can, even if it's just an hour, an hour a day or something, just start watching a few things, watch it as we live in the most abundant time in history for learning. You can go and watch stuff on YouTube for free and and and learn this stuff, um, which is essentially what I've done for the last couple of years. Things to read, podcasts to listen to. So just just start immersing themselves in it somewhat, even just with an hour a day or even a couple of hours a week is enough to to get started.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Amazing. And before we before we sign off, tell us about the the the new venture. Um, it sounds interesting.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Yeah, so the expedition, uh, I have co-founded it with Laura Rosenberger. So Laura is the ex uh co-founder of Lalo Wines. She was also the COO of Naked Wines, and similar to me, I think we we connected as kindred spirits when uh we were at an AI event a few weeks ago, or yeah, just over a month ago now, and yeah, we were we've just noticed there is this, particularly in FMCG, it seems to still operate like it's in the year 2005. It blows my mind. And so our ambition is to truly transform that. And the first way in which we're going to do it is by coaching the senior leaders, it's the founders, it's the senior leaders of heads of marketing, commercial directors, etc., to it's a six-week coaching program where they go from potentially zero, having very, very little AI experience to a full plan for how they're going to cascade it through the business and start to integrate it using Claude and having all these teams of agents and go from knowing, as I say, they need to do something with AI and they're perhaps using it a little bit to having really clear structure in place and saving themselves hours and hours of work, making them extremely more productive. Uh, and uh yeah, that's that's uh going to be launching very, very soon. We've already started talking to people about it. I can't name any names yet, but we have already got, we're oversubscribed for our first cohort that we're gonna be running come the end of April. Um, so there'll be more to come on that very soon.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Amazing, mate. It sounds brilliant. I'll watch out for that one. Um, mate, thank you so much. I think there's loads of things that I've learned. So I think a lot of people um will take away from this. So thank you for your time, mate. Thanks for your for your insight. Um, yeah, really appreciate it, man.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. I will always happily talk about AI. So uh yeah, if anyone ever wants to message me and uh have have a chat about it, then uh I will always chew their ear off.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Nice cheers, mate. Big thanks to Craig for coming on. There's loads there that I think people can actually apply to their business. So if you found this useful and you know someone running sales and a challenger brand or a founder who's trying to sell more consistently without turning into a robot, please send the message on. Please send the episode on. For clips and extra bits, follow me on TikTok and Instagram at makingmighty. Frameworks and practical takeaways in your inbox, join the mailing list at makingmighty.com. And if you've got a question you want covered in a future episode or a guess you think I should get on, please email me at makingmighty at gmail.com. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next time.