Why “Eat Less, Move More” Doesn’t Actually Work

Most people have heard the advice: “eat less, move more.”

And technically from a thermodynamics perspective… it’s true.

But if it were actually helpful, far fewer people would struggle with weight loss.

In this episode, we break down why this phrase, despite sounding simple and logical, often fails people in the real world. We discuss the gap between theory and practice, why oversimplified advice can lead to frustration and rarely to sustainable long-term change.

We also explore:

• Why “eat less” is far more complicated than it sounds
• The role of environment, habits, biology, and psychology
• How vague advice creates confusion instead of clarity

This isn’t about dismissing energy balance. It’s about understanding why knowing something doesn’t always translate into doing it.

If you’ve ever felt like you know what to do but still struggle to apply it, this episode is for you.

If you would like monthly lifting workouts, you can join the Momentum by Sohee fitness app. http://momentumbysohee.com

If you are interested in fat loss science, you can purchase Ben's best-selling comprehensive fat loss book, Everything Fat Loss. http://geni.us/EverythingFatLoss

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Telling people who want to lose weight just to eat less, move more, is useless.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

This is akin to telling someone with depression to smile more, or someone who is drowning to swim better.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

So the inspiration for this episode, this is a topic that we have talked about in the past, but it has been rekindled recently from a video that I made. So there was a woman on social media who said recently, as she's going through menopause, she feels like despite keeping her activity the same, despite keeping her diet the same, she feels like she's now struggling with body fat in a way that she wasn't before. And she said that a young personal trainer basically called her a liar and said, you just need to eat less, move more. That's kind of what it boiled down to. And this is one of the issues with this is it is giving people essentially oversimplified advice, or not even advice, just four words saying eat less, move more and expecting them to be grateful for that input.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Right. Now we're not saying it's factually incorrect, we're saying that that those four words in and of themselves are not going to be sufficient to help most people make meaningful change.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Yeah, so if you came to me as a personal trainer or you went to a medical professional and said, I feel like I'm struggling with my weight, and I said, Well, just eat less, move more, you are probably not going to hug me and say, Thank you so much for your wisdom, oh wise one, as much as want to flick me in the jugular for being a patronizing little shit. I think I think it's I think it can be interpreted as being very condescending because it's giving someone four words and implying that they didn't know that that would be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah. Also implying that they haven't already been trying.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yeah. So I think if you went to a business coach, for example, and said, Hey, I um I would like to earn more money, I'd like to retire wealthy, and they said, Well, have you tried uh spending less and saving more? You would not be like, Fucking, here's 10 grand, thank you for that advice. This was an amazing consultation. You would be like, Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. Yeah, and that is what I think has kind of grown out of this trend of people on social media media saying it's all about calories, it's been simplified down to eat less, move more, that's it, surface level thinking.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Now, when we say this, some people will misinterpret our words to mean we are trying to claim that calories in, calories out does not work.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Which we have never said.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah, which actually some people do try to claim calories in, calories out doesn't always work.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Morons.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

His words, not mine. But the fact of the matter is, calories in, calories out cannot actually be violated. So I think it's important to lay the foundation first of CO, CICO, energy balance, so that we can hopefully all be on the same page as to the fact that yes, it is about calories in, calories out. However, it is a lot more complicated than eat less, move more.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Yeah, so another example that I think is really important, this is a screenshot that I took from my own social media page years ago. There was a video of a woman who was talking about reasons that she struggles with overeating and reasons that she struggles with weight gain. And my response to the video was essentially reiterating what she said, which is it isn't necessarily that people don't know that it's about what you eat and whether you exercise. Of course, they make a difference, but sometimes there are obstacles that people struggle to get over. And someone replied to that video that I made saying it's definitely an emotional, hormonal thing for me. I don't know how to overcome it. I.e., she feels that she eats out of emotions, and someone replied saying, eat less, move more, and they replied saying, whoosh. I.e. the point has gone completely over their head. They know this already, but they're struggling to put it into action. And someone says, Well, just eat less, move more, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Yeah. And then another example of this, another that from from my own personal life is some of you know that I had an eating disorder in my teens. Back when I was told eat less, move more to lose weight. I took this to mean eat less of absolutely everything and move as much as you possibly can, to the point where I wouldn't even eat lettuce. I wouldn't even eat low-calorie food, fruits, vegetables, nothing. And I would do hours and hours of cardio a day because I all because I thought, okay, more is going to be better, more exercise is better, and eating as little as possible is going to be the best. So that there's another way that obviously is taken to the extreme, but it does happen.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

I think the point is if you give people vague advice, you have to recognize that it is very, very open to misinterpretation. Right. And telling people to eat less move more is very, very open to misinterpretation.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

And I think I would say at minimum, it's going to be unhelpful and confusing. At worst, it's going to be actually quite dangerous advice.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

All right. Going back to calories and calories out, I want to read this quote from if any of you are nerdy like us, I recommend this paper, Energy Balance and Its Components Implications for Body Weight Regulation. Okay. So it talks about the first law of thermodynamics, which states that energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed. Further, body weight change is associated with an imbalance between the energy content of food eaten and energy expended by the body to maintain life and to perform physical work. Basically, it's a nerdier way of saying calories and calories. Yeah, it's really it really does ultimately boil down to calories in, calories out.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Now, the thing that I think people trip up on, and the thing that I think people get very, very angry about, is when someone says it boils down to calories in, calories out, that is a very, very simplified message for a much, much bigger picture. So for example, if someone goes on a medication and that changes their hormones and therefore they start gaining weight, they'll say, Well, it's not about calories, it's about hormones. But hormones can influence calories in and calories out kind of behind the scenes. So for example, if I'm on social media and I say that weight loss diets work via calorie reduction, there will be people who say, Oh, you believe in calories. You're saying that hormones don't matter. And that is not the case. So biology is very, very complicated. There are millions of things that can happen in your body that can change how you respond to food. For example, however, when you look at dietary success rates, the very, very simple take-home message is the best predictor we have for weight loss and/or fat loss, which gets a little bit more complicated, but let's say weight loss is calorie intake relative to calorie expenditure. So, for example, if you look at research studies where they tightly control how much food they give to people and they measure it to make sure that it's meticulous, it doesn't tend to matter whether someone goes on a low-carb diet or a low-fat diet. Body fat changes tend to be the same based on calorie intake. It doesn't seem to matter what other diet they go on. So if you look at things like intermittent fasting diets or time-restricted feeding diets or Mediterranean diets or whatever it is, again, calorie-controlled diets tend to promote weight loss, and an increase in calorie intake tends to promote weight gain. And this can also be seen in other populations. So you can look at review papers for, say, people with type 2 diabetes, which is an example of something that people would say is a hormonal disorder. But once again, when you put them on calorie-controlled diets, they tend to lose weight. And if you give them a surplus of calories, they tend to gain weight. So this is not denying that biology is complicated. This is not denying that there are things that can happen to you that can influence weight gain and appetite and fat storage patterns and lots and lots of other things. But in terms of practical implementation, when it comes to what diet you are on, calories seem to be the primary driver of weight change.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yeah. With that said, I end monologue. With that said, I do think it's important to acknowledge that absolutely for certain populations, adhering to said calorie calorie deficit is going to be more difficult for some people than others. And I think that's the part that is huge. A lot of people don't acknowledge or think it isn't a thing at all. But of course, that's going to make a difference in people's success rates.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Now I think this is a natural segue into the next quick section, section on diet failure rates.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Yeah, so I think there's a kind of almost like a survivorship bias. I don't know if that's the right logical fallacy for this. But if someone goes on a reduced calorie diet and they lose weight and they feel fine and they've lost weight and they're happy and everything is great, sometimes when they see people struggling, they say, Well, it worked for me. Yes, you are obviously lacking willpower. But that's kind of forgetting all of the behind-the-scenes things that can make it easier for one person than it is for another person. So if I went on a weight training program and someone else went on the same weight training program, one of us might get better results than the other. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are doing something wrong. It's just there can be different biological responses to the same stimulus. So if you look at weight loss research, which we've talked about before in the episode of 95% of diets fail, a lot of people who start at a higher body weight or a higher body fat percentage, or however you want to describe it, if you give them a diet and follow up with them one, two, up to five years later, chances are a lot of them will have regained some of slash most, sometimes all of the weight they have lost. Now, that doesn't mean that diets always fail. It doesn't even necessarily mean that the majority of diets always fail, but there is definitely an implementation issue where if you tell someone to lose weight for whatever reason over the course of five years, they often don't get great success rates. Yeah. And it's important to understand that now because if you tell someone, here is your low-calorie diet, follow it for a year, they're probably not going to do very well. Yeah. But that is very similar to saying eat less, move more, bro, kick them out the door, assist, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Yes. Now, if you were to take a bird's eye view, zoom out a little bit, looking at all the research papers on this topic, you will notice certain themes emerge. You will see in the research papers where they report higher success rates of weight loss maintenance, we're gonna see that they did certain things quite differently. So amongst what other things that they did.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

So these are an example. The the list that's made is from the look-ahead trial, but there are other what are called interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary research studies where instead of giving you a diet and kicking you out the door, they had multiple specialists.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yes, multiple professionals, they had different approaches. So they had structured exercise programs, probably led by a personal trainer or an exercise specialist, they have lifestyle activity recommendations, self-monitoring techniques such as food diary, training log, and so on, nutrition education with the help of a registered dietitian, individual and group sessions with a psychologist, group challenges, so we see social support happening there, behavioral sessions, and regular follow-up appointments with a physician, and so on and so forth. In contrast, we have the lower success rates, which is which they did exactly what you were saying, where all they did was say Here is your diet. Here's your diet, try to eat less, or here's your calorie limit, stick to that, goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Yeah, so think of it like this: if you and a friend both wanted to lose weight, and your friend was given a one-page diet plan, eat this. Here's a here's your meal plan. It's literally on one piece of here's your meal plan, see you in six months. But you had, say, a registered dietitian who was giving you nutrition advice, giving you customized meal templates and things you could actually implement and customize for yourself. Let's say you saw a personal trainer like one of us, and we were helping you in the gym, not just giving you a program and waving you on your way, chances are you would have better success than the person who's been kicked out the door. And that is again a reiteration of why giving people very, very easy, simplified advice and expecting them to implement it perfectly is unrealistic.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Correct. Follow-up question to this, then, is what would make weight loss harder for some people and easier for some people? So we're gonna go over weight loss barriers and facilitators.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Yeah, so I particularly love this topic. It's a topic that I've talked about in my book, it's a topic I've talked about multiple times on social media. So if you are struggling with weight loss or you are struggling with exercise, or you are struggling with healthy eating or whatever it is, rather than saying, well, just do it, which is what eat less move more is, imagine you went to a trained professional, like a dietitian or a personal trainer or a medical professional. The first thing they would normally do, or one of the first things they would do, is sit down with you and ask you questions to try and find out what you are struggling with. Yeah. And there are big research papers that basically do surveys with people to say, tell me what you're struggling with. And they are listed as barriers and facilitators. So barriers, yeah. What are reasons that you are struggling to implement healthy eating or diet or whatever? So we are going to look at barriers or obstacles and then facilitators, things that make things easier. Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Now, as I go through the list of reported barriers, you will probably resonate with several, if not all of these items.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Yeah. Fly through, and then people might think, oh, that one applies to me. Or here are some common examples that uh I have compiled that was seen in different research papers.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

First one, lack of support, feeling like you're doing this by yourself. Maybe you are sent a fitness program, a weight loss program, you're sent on your way, and there's no check-ins, no one is looking to see how you're doing. Okay. Second one, lack of enjoyment. You hate what you're doing. Yes. You're on a miserable diet, which I've tried to do time and time again in the past. You're on an exercise regimen that you absolutely hate doing a style of workouts that really grinds your gears, does not make you feel good.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

I would imagine most people listening to this would at least be able to say there was one diet they tried or one exercise program they tried that they hated. Oh, yeah. I think everyone can resonate with that.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

That was me in the past for sure. Lack of personalization, which again is a big one, especially we see this a lot with rigid generic meal plans, for example, where a coach would send 200 clients the exact same meal plan.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Which, by the way, very, very quick tangent, but the number of coaches who copy and paste meal plans and training plans. Yes. Every so often people will send me messages and be like, I paid for this from a coach. Yes. And they forgot to change the name at the top. Yes. Because they literally go control V, control V. Even worse.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Even worse. I had a nutrition client come to me years ago, and when they were telling me about their prior experience with the previous coach, they said uh she said she hired, she and her husband together hired the same coach, and she is much smaller than her husband, much different body weights, and the coach gave them both the exact same meal plan.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

It's a great way to charge twice for the case. Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

And I'm like, you didn't even try, bro. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Meal plans online are one of the, in my opinion, one of the biggest scams because so many of them are literally just copy and pasted batches.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yeah, and I think the way that a lot of fitness coaches do them as well, I think is highly unethical. And also, by the way, depending on where you're based, there is also a scope of practice issue. Anyway, I interject side rant over next reporter barrier is going to be time. So time is actually based on research, at least from an exercise standpoint, is one of the biggest barriers to exercising consistently. So you have long work hours, you have a lot of responsibilities at home, looking after multiple children or whatever it is, you don't feel like you have time to meal prep. You don't have to feel like you have time to grocery shop or get to the gym, so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

I feel like time interacts with energy and mental bandwidth. Because sometimes it's not necessarily time. Like you could say, well, if you've got time to watch TV, you've got time to play on your phone, then you've got time to exercise. But at the end of the day, if you're exhausted, it's not necessarily about time. It's the number of hours you have in the day where you actually feel like you've got the energy to do it.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Energy to do things, yeah. Then we have location. Maybe you don't have a decent gym anywhere close to you. Maybe you're living in a place where there are no fresh fruit and vegetables nearby. Sickness or illness if you live with chronic disease or you have joint pain.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

I love that you looked at me.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

I know you won't be offended.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

There is admittedly no one else to look at, but you had if someone has a chronic disease.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

I know you won't be offended by that. Yeah. Then we have money, of course. Money is actually one of, and I'm not gonna go on a rant. I ramp, I will refrain from going on a rant about this. Money is one of the biggest determinants of health status, actually. Um, so money's big. Festivities, so the holiday season, for example, Thanksgiving, at least in America, Thanksgiving, Christmas, this like the there's a whole the holiday season is when uh some people gain very common for people to gain weight.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Very common for weight gain that often is described as not fully compensated for in the remaining months.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Correct. So they a lot of times people will gain a few a handful of pounds, but then throughout the course of the rest of the year, they don't then lose that same weight. So then over year after year the it you know compounds. Then we have weather, so bad weather. I definitely experienced this. When the weather is gloomy, when it's raining.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

If I lived in England, I would never have taken up running.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Yeah. And I'm like, I don't want to go outside for a walk, I don't want to go outside for my run when the weather's not nice. Lack of motivation, that's an obvious one. Obviously. Lack of results, which can ties in tying into lack of motivation, can be very demotivating. Why would you want to continue something if you feel like it's not working for you?

SPEAKER_00 18:50

I think especially when you think how many people join the gym and then go, like if you're not getting results that excite you, it makes it makes sense to cancel.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Right, right, right. Then we also have lack of uh lack of results, which I've covered. We've got inner food cue cues, uh, emotional eating, eating from boredom, sadness, things like that. We've got weight stigma, which I've covered in a previous episode, um, where you are discriminated against and treated more poorly based on your body size, actually is linked to higher calorie intake and less motivation to exercise.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

That's a controversial one. I'm not against doing an episode on that at some point. Log that for later.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

I'm happy to do that because you know I feel very strongly.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

A great example of this because people go, oh, but fat shaming works, blah blah blah blah. If you bully kids in school, I'm saying this as if I did it, I was obviously not the one, but I don't know how else to describe it. If you bully kids in school about their weight, a lot of them are less likely to want to do PE. And that is kind of how it extends into adulthood. Like if you make people feel shit for the way they look, it will often change how they interact with exercise, for example. And that tends to continue into it.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Did you have PE in in England?

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Do you think we just did no sport? Or do you mean the name of it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Yeah, we forgot to do it. Physical education. Yeah. Okay. So it would be treated as a class, basically.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Yeah, but we did proper sports like rugby and football, not by football you mean soccer.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Soccer. Yeah, yeah. Uh and then the last two would be saboteurs, so friends and family who actively sabotage or discourage you from eating a nutritious diet, from get going to the gym to get in your work and making time for yourself, and so on. And maybe right now you're thinking of a specific person or two in your life.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

I actually see one more at the bottom of the list.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Um, and one more. Last one, which is dichotomous thinking. My favorite, which is the all or nothing mentality. Many of you know this was my entire master's thesis on this very topic.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Right? So this is when you eat one unplanned cookie, and then you're like, oh, screw it, I've messed up my diet. I'm gonna eat the entire plate of cookies now.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Instead of the all or nothing mentality, maybe an all or something.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Oh, all or something where oh, I can have a cookie and have it fit into my diet and move on with my life.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

If you like the name of the podcast, I'm pretty sure that was Sohi's idea. She deserves all the credit. So if we move on to facilitators and we'll fly through this quickly because we've got a lot of science and shit coming up. So here are some flip examples. Here are things that can make it easier, as reported by lots and lots of people generally. So number one is initial motivation. If you go to the gym and you're feeling pumped, you're psyched, you're ready to go, that's initial motivation. So if someone wants to improve their health or live longer, health, health with an F. If someone wants to improve their health or live longer, mitigate disease risk, whatever, there is often a strong initial motivation that gets them in the gym. That is a very commonly reported facilitator. Obviously, ongoing motivation afterwards. So if you are seeing results or you are feeling results, that tends to spur people on to keep going as. Opposed to I don't know why I'm doing this anymore, my weight loss plateaued, I'm not getting stronger, the gym is a waste of money. Uh exercise flexibility, i.e., helping incorporate activity into your regular routine. If you can get to that point, it is easier to keep going. Pretty straightforward. Uh, social support, things like incentives if you have supportive friends and family or qualified professionals. When I was younger, part of my biggest motivation for going to the gym was I would do it with a friend. We would often say, Hey, do you want to go on bench? Do you want to go and do buys and tries on Friday or whatever? Yeah. If you have social support, it's easier to keep going a lot of the time. Uh, behavioral improvements like increased self-motivation, improved mood, or improved confidence. I personally had improved confidence from going to the gym and lifting weights and feeling stronger and changing the way I look and getting more compliments and blah blah blah blah. And I think that helped set the foundation for why I kept exercise as a habit. Environmental, so having access to inclusive gyms and safe areas for walking. If it's raining and miserable in England in winter or also autumn and often spring a lot of the time, it's very rare to see people out running because it's cold and it's wet and it's miserable compared to summer. So there is a seasonal and weather interaction with how likely you are to go out. Whereas in California, for most of the year, you could go to a beach and you'll see people playing volleyball, skateboarding, jogging, cycling, whatever. Weather is a big component. Problem solving, overcoming barriers when they arise. This one I think is underappreciated. A lot of people will hit a roadblock. Fuck, I don't know what to do, I'll stop. But part of the reason of going down the list of barriers and facilitators is if you can identify the barrier, hopefully you can identify a way around it. And problem-solving strategies was something that was implemented in one of the earlier trials that you talked about that had a much better success, yeah, weight loss success rate. Uh finally, relapse prevention, i.e., resuming active weight loss efforts if someone has regained weight. So if Joe Schmo goes to the gym, loses 20 pounds, but then they start regaining weight, they might go, well, it's not working, fuck it. I'm gonna cancel the gym, I'll go back to what I'm doing before. We've talked about this before. People who lose weight who often start regaining weight will sometimes disengage with exercise completely and healthy eating completely. Right. Relapse prevention, having a strategy, knowing what to do rather than jacking it all in.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Right. The last two points actually remind me of a couple of things that I wanted to bring up. One would be the importance of self-regular self-monitoring, right? Because if you are gaining some of the weight back and you don't realize it, which actually does happen if you're if you're if you're self-monitoring on a regular basis, you're more likely to catch it before it spirals out of control. I had a friend in college who told me he gained 30 pounds in his first semester at university, and he legitimately did not notice until he went back home to see his high school friends over break.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

And they were all like obviously they they had a reaction to how he looked so different. And then that's when he got on the scale and was like, oh my god, I had no idea I had gained this much weight. The other thing, too, so obviously, if he had been, not that weight loss was his goal by any means, but if he had been getting on the scale a bit more regularly or paying a bit more attention to his body size, he would have noticed it sooner and probably nipped it in the bun suiter. The second thing is the going back one, the problem solving. That reminds me of the importance of a growth mindset versus fixed mindset, where you, I think the expectation management can be really helpful where you go into your weight loss journey, understanding that not everything's going to be perfect, you're going to have setbacks. And when that happens, rather than exp demanding perfection and throwing in the towel right away, which is very reflective of a fixed mindset, you are more willing to be curious about what went wrong and more willing to then pivot and try a different strategy. So you're more likely to keep trying.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

So I love when you get passionate about psychology.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

I think it's important.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

This was like one of our first conversations ever where we just she goes off on a spiral about psychology, and I found it fascinating. And then next thing we know, we've got a baby on the way. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Basically, that's the basic how our relationship went.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Let's move on.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

All right. With that said, contrary to what a lot of uninformed people believe, obesity is actually quite complex.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

It's actually very complex. So I have pulled out a couple of quotes to read here just to drive the point home. First one, begin quote. Obesity is classified by the World Health Organization as a chronic relapsing disease arising from complex interactions between genetics, neurobiology, eating behaviours, access to healthy diet, market forces, and the broader environment. New quote, separate research paper. Obesity is not caused by personal choice or by society, but rather by the relationship between an individual and the environment. To reiterate, this is not denying that someone can change how much their body weighs, which I think is one of the biggest misconceptions. Because people think, but if you eat less and you move more, you will lose weight. Obesity is a choice. But that is denying the complex underlying uh intertwined factors that drive those things in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yeah. And I'm already I'm I was anticipating someone who was listening to this being like, give me a one-sentence summary of everything you said, and we're like, we it's hard to do that.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Straightforward This is the way it is. Now, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

I think as a very, very quick side tangent, one of the issues here is because for a long time, and I know this is changing now, and there are different perspectives, but for a long time, obesity is diagnosed with your weight as above a certain thing. So if you are in a certain BMI, you are technically obese. Therefore, you can stop yourself being obese by going on a calorie-controlled diet, and therefore, obesity is fully within your control. And I think it makes sense when people look at it from that view, but there is a lot, and I mean a lot of research literature that talks about why that is not the case and it's why it isn't that simple. And we're gonna give you a like super express summary now because it's actually way too complicated for one episode. We could do one episode on every single thing we mention here and not do it justice. So let's express version.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Okay. First things first, when people think of weight loss, they think of maybe the seesaw image, right? Which is again technically correct. You've got energy intake on one side, you've got energy output on the other side, and it really comes down to what is your energy intake relative to energy expenditure that then determines your weight gain versus weight loss.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Quite literally, calories in versus calories out. As long as you can balance those two and make calories in under calories out, that's it. That's all there is to it.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

And again, going back to the beginning of the episode, technically it is correct, but it's only scratching the very, very surface. Imagine, you know, those images where they have the tip of the iceberg in the ocean, and then under the ocean, you've got everything else underneath.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

You never read my second book, did you? Not fully. You can say that, it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Not fully.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Could because you you were like helping me if I asked for like expert opinion by actually using an iceberg in the book.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

But I think it's a great idea.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

I didn't know if you knew that. Oh my god, same wavelength, babe. Same wavelength.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Yeah. So anyway, that's how people like to over they stop there, is what I'm saying. Yeah. But there's a lot more going on.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

It's a simple seesaw.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Yeah. So let's talk about the drivers of said seesaw.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Yeah. These are the underlying or behind the scenes factors that influence the things that people think about. I.e., if there are factors that change how much food you want to eat, that is a big driving force to food intake. Right. But people don't necessarily think about that. They just say, well, eat less, as if it's equal easy for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Right. Now we found this fantastic review paper, and they had a really nice visual.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

We love visuals for anyone watching on Spotify.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

We're going to pop it on to the video version, obviously. And they have drivers of the Seesaw, right? Into three, there's three big buckets that they've identified. We've got the overeating or food intake bucket, we've got low energy expenditure bucket, and we also have the physical inactivity bucket. And then of course, within each of these buckets, there are multiple factors in there. Okay. I'm going to go over the food intake slash overeating bucket. First up, we've got sociocultural. This refers to things like education.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Just in case you didn't elaborate, I was going to say, what does that mean, babe, in case anyone was listening, but sorry, carry on.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Education and income level. Okay. So in general, uh, we find that lower income is associated with higher obesity. So their in income is inversely associated with obesity, in other words.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Yeah, so like research papers on that are a is a little bit more complicated and it can depend on the country and it can depend on whether you're in a lower income or a higher income country.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

It can depend on lots and lots of different things. But generally speaking, if you think here's how I simplify it for people fruits and vegetables are expensive enough that I consider them a luxury. If someone is on a tight food budget, no one's spending$2 on spinach because it doesn't fill you up. So if someone is on a very tight food budget, it is often common that they will buy fewer fruits and vegetables. So that is an example of how income can influence your purchasing habits, which then influence your food intake.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Yep. It can also influence things like higher, you can have higher stress, higher mental disorders, which would then influence your food intake as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Yeah, if someone's like if someone's super tight and worried about their finances, whether they are on a calorie-controlled diet might actually be fairly low down the important things that they're worried about.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Yeah. Another factor that influences your food intake would be food marketing, food environment. Sounds pretty obvious, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:44

I love that topic because that's an example of an external factor that changes your behavior and it is well studied. So for example, you can think if you go through the supermarket and there is a special offer on Doritos, and they're at the end of an aisle and they've got a big uh fancy sign and whatever. Maybe you want Doritos, they're on offer. It's buy one, get one, 50% off, or whatever. Food marketing is very, very prevalent, especially today nowadays, and we know that food marketing has the power to influence your purchasing habits. Otherwise, food companies, big food giants wouldn't be spending so much money on food marketing.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Or even even things like your favorite, your favorite food influencer on social media has being paid to promote a certain new product that was released.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Even celebrities are will often do things like where sports people and athletes are in press conferences, they will often have a Coca-Cola in front of them or a Pepsi or a Beta Rate or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Right. Yeah. Right. Uh we have lack of knowledge, simple things like you don't realize what a tablespo how small a tablespoon of peanut butter actually is.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Well, for example. The ver an example I gave in a much earlier episode was the first person who came to me saying they were struggling to build muscle is because they were eating bread for protein.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Yeah. Oh, and then another example that I thought of now, a real life example from a client years ago, she was not, she was on a fat loss diet. I was helping her, she was not losing weight, swore she was doing everything right, da da da. After lots of prying and prying and prying, finally discovered that she thought calories from fruits and veggies and and and liquids did not count.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Oh, yeah, I get that. Some some people say don't worry about these, and it can be interpreted as those don't matter. Um but like I also know people that did this on a popular commercial weight loss plan where they were told fruit was free. And because fruit was free, fruit was the thing that they ate lots of five. Maybe that's where they got bought. I mean like lots and lots and lots of.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

See, that's something I would do.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

I'd be like, free means eat as much of it as you want.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

And generally speaking, fruit is fruit and vegetables are great for weight loss, but of course they can still be abused.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Correct. And you can and I can throw down quite a bit of fruit, like many, many calories worth. Uh, we have peer pressure, self-explanatory. We've got emotional eating.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Uh, I like emotional eating especially because I think a lot of people understand this on at least a surface level, because the Hollywood cliche example that I give over and over again is if someone goes through a breakup, they eat ice cream on the sofa or couch, yeah, watching their favorite film. Yeah. And that is an example of how there's this expectation that if you are sad, you go for comfort food. Yep. But it's actually much deeper than that, and it can be much stronger than that, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a response to sadness. That's just one that people think of.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Yeah. And then of course, we have to acknowledge the opposite side where some people, when they're stressed or sad, they will reduce their food intake.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

I'm which would be you. I'm one of those people when I also mean when I get stressed. If I'm stressed with work, for example, you'll skip meals. Work, work, work, skip meals, and lose weight. Yeah. When when we first started dating and I was went through like a bad life episode, you were very lean. I was like fitness model on stage level. And definitely not on purpose. And not healthy.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Yeah. Last two factors on this list: lack of sleep, which is actually associated with increased ghrelin, which then leads to higher hunger levels.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Yeah, we talked about this in more detail on our uh 10 things that can improve your health and sometimes promote weight loss without calorie tracking. Sleep impairment has a significant literally after one night impact on your appetite, where people tend to eat more food. Yeah. And that's literally after one night of sleep deprivation. But over an extended period of time, it can curtail fat loss efforts. Correct. And it can also curtail lean body mass growth in response to the same weight training program. Correct. Basically, if you're sleep deprived, you become a little bit more snack curious. And if you're sleep deprived a lot and you're also awake for more hours in the day because you're not sleeping as much, it is normal for your food intake to go skew if lastly we have medications which can then impact your appetite. Yeah, so there was uh I can put the image on the screen, but there was an example from one research study that showed drugs linked with obesity, including corticosteroids, antidepressants, antipsychotics, and anti-diabetics, plus others. But there will be people out here that know that when they took a certain medication, they struggled more so thanks. They were ravenous normally. Right. Yeah. I've been on corticosteroids before when I was first diagnosed with Crohn's disease, and they do some pretty wild things. A lot of people say I got really moon-faced, for example, or really puffy and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Then you have the flip side where I was on when I briefly took ADHD. Do you remember this? AD when I took my A medication for my ADHD for only maybe two months. Part of why I got off was that.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

In case you were unsure, Sophie has ADHD.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Yes, what a surprise.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

If you've noticed her talking like three times as fast as me.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yes. And one of the side effects that I really didn't like was that it made me uh completely eliminated my appetite, and I felt super nauseated all the time. The thought of eating food would sometimes make me gag, which I didn't like.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

So I remember you literally saying, I struggle to drink a protein shake because my appetite is so low, and you were kind of like gagging just drinking something.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

And I was like, I'm not really someone who is in a position where I I don't think losing more weight would be healthy for me personally. So that was part of why I got off. Anyway, moving on, next section. We have the second bucket, which you will spearhead.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Yeah, so the next bucket that I I'm using bucket because you've said it, but the image actually isn't a bucket at all. No, it's not a it's not a literal bucket. I just I I like it. I liked it. When when you said bucket, I was like, I'm gonna go down with it. So this one is talking about metabolism and energy expenditure. Yeah. So aging, aging like resting metabolic rate, tends to slowly decline, not super drastically, but it tends to slowly decline over the course of life, can be linked with lower lean body mass in later life as well. But generally speaking, like resting energy expenditure can slowly uh decline. Yeah. Genetic reasons. Genetics is a big one, and personally people get very triggered. People get very triggered, and I honestly don't really understand why, because everyone knows that genetics make a difference for so many things. Like, if you have tall parents, I was gonna say hate, and you then had a tall baby, no one would be like, Holy fuck, I didn't expect that. But for some reason, when it comes to body weight, people are like, Oh, you're blaming genetics, genetics don't make a difference. I've even had people accusing me of lying in a video where I have shown research papers that talk about the role of genetics, and they're like, but you just need to eat fewer calories, and I'm like, Oh, for the love of God, you are so missing the point. So when it I think people think we're gonna say something.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

People think that when you bring up genetics, they're using it as a crutch. Oh, okay. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

So that I think that I think is fair. If genetics is being used to completely zero personal responsibility, I think when people interpret it as that I can understand.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Which is not what we're saying.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Which is not what we're saying. So genetics is more like uh a dial behind the scenes that can influence what you're doing, sometimes to big, big degrees, and sometimes to much, much smaller degrees. So there are research papers decades old, decades and decades old, that will look at things like twin studies and adoption studies to estimate the heritability of body weight. So, for example, if you have uh twins that are then separated, do they tend to have a similar body weight? Because if so, that would tend to imply that there's a genetic factor behind the scenes. I have a quote from Wern review paper: genetic factors influence how the body regulates appetite, very, very important, burns energy, stores fat, and maintains metabolic health. That's from a review paper from 2025. So a genetic component to obesity can account for 40 to 50% of the variability in body weight status, but is lower for people of for normal weight individuals, quote normal weight, so a bit of a weird term, around 30% and higher in people with severe obesity, which is 60 to 80%, and that's from a review paper from a very, very well-esteemed uh researcher on genetics. So basically there will be some families who are more prone to having a higher body fat percentage than others. I don't think that's a very controversial thing to say. Now, genetics, I know I'm spending slightly too long on this, I'll fly through the others, promise. Genetics, you can view these uh from different perspectives. So sometimes there are rare, more severe cases of extreme, what is called monogenic obesity. So, for example, you there are even, I can put one on the screen, but there have been research studies where they show photos of kids from a very, very young age that clearly are more susceptible to fat storage than you would expect for a child of that age, because their appetite is through the roof. So if you're feeding a child and they're always hungry and they're always hungry, of course they are more susceptible to weight gain. However, most genetic factors or contributors to body weight are more like very, very small dials. So sometimes genetics can contribute a large amount, like£10 or 20 pounds, when you look at population studies. But sometimes it's more like they will identify smaller genetic factors that might be associated with a very small increase in BMI. So a lot of the time genetics are more like you might be a little bit hungrier than someone else, but it's not necessarily a huge difference maker, but it's a difference maker enough that you would have to work harder for the same result. That was a long one, wasn't it? For that one.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Last couple items for you.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Um sarcopenia, age-related, progressive loss of skeletal muscle mass, which actually kind of mentioned earlier when it comes to resting energy expenditure. Medications, again, I've already mentioned, but medications don't necessarily just impact food intake, but can also impact uh energy expenditure, hence them being in two buckets. Yes. Or should I say squares. The brain. So the brain is an interesting one. I'm going to touch on this briefly because when people think about food intake and hunger, they naturally think of the stomach. But neurobiology, the brain is actually a part of your appetite system. So, for example, there is a Harvard Nutrition Obesity Symposium. They had a whole report on the neurobiology of eating behavior. And an example of this, if you are unsure, most people won't know this kind of research exists, but you can look at things like functional MRI studies of people's brains when they will eat certain foods. And you will sometimes see a different result between quote unquote lean individuals and individuals with obesity, i.e., some people have a different food reward system. What's the best way to phrase that? A different food reward system than others.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Food reward response.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

So for example, do you have a friend who just doesn't really care about junk food? Yes. I do. My friend James, you know James. He he there's very few things that he's ever eaten. He just doesn't crave it. Yeah. He he couldn't give a fuck. You could put a donut in front of him and he's like, I'm right, thanks. Yeah. Doesn't bother him. Other people, you put a donut in front of them. Oh my god, I want that donut. Correct. Oh my god, that's all I can think about. Food reward can be different between people.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Yeah. And that is not a matter of a difference in discipline levels or willpower levels, as some people may claim.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Final one, final bucket. Final bucket.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

I can fly through this one. Physical activity, very straightforward. Okay, we have uh sociocultural again level.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Socio cultural.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Socio-cultural, for example, if you do not have access, which we've mentioned before, if you have do not if you have limited access to safe exercise environments, or you live in a very urban area where there's not a lot of parks and and nice areas for you to go walking and things like that, you're going to be less active.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

So I think an easy example for that is like transportation, for example. So there is a general trend that very few people would try and deny that we have more cars, more taxis, more trains, more buses. So you can look at research papers from decades ago, and the percentage of kids that walked or cycled to school was much higher. Yes. Whereas now people tend to get cars, partly for safety, partly for convenience, partly to save time. Things like elevators and escalators save people walking upstairs, which again saves time. Great for disability accessibility. But all of these things combined mean that we don't have to walk as much as we used to. Correct. And that is a perfectly normal consequence of the change in our environment.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Right. So in many ways, it's made our lives easier and more convenient, but it does mean it comes at the cost of our physical activity throughout the day. So this is not even considering formal exercise. This is we can call it neat, right? We can call it non-exercise activity thermogenesis. If you're trying to get from point A to point B, we have much easier and faster ways to accomplish that than walking.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Which, if you go back to our last episode, this is one of the things why activity trackers can actually be a really good thing, because a lot of people would look at their smartwatch and be like, I just don't walk that much. Yeah. If you're sitting on if you get up in the morning, you sit in a car, drive to work, sit at a desk for eight hours, drive home, then sit on the sofa watching TV. Right. It's very common for your step count to be very, very, very low. But that again is a fairly normal consequence of sedentary desk jobs and transport options and everything.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

And we are we're experiencing this experiencing this more now than ever, to the point where I feel like you have to make an intentional, concerted effort to go out of your way to keep your daily activity level up.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Now.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

That's fair. Yeah. I don't think that I don't think it's a case of us getting lazier as much as if you give human beings an easier way to do something, it makes sense they're gonna do it. If there's an elevator going up a long staircase in a an underground station, very few people will take the staircase when the elevator's more so if you work from home.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Like we go.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

I thought I said elevator. I'm turning into an American. Versus what? Uh we say lift in England.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Sometimes I just use the American term because I think Americans won't necessarily know the word I'm talking about. You are correct about that.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Yeah. So work from home would make things a lot harder if you don't have to commute. You don't have to leave your house to go to work and your office is you know five steps away. Uh then we have, I'm gonna lumbies together, chronic fatigue, muscle pain, and joint pain, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:03

I want to just go straight in and take over. Very relatable for you. Because I have suffered with more joint pain in my life and more muscle pain than I have let on for most people. I have had years, possibly even over a decade, where every single day I will have some degree of joint pain or muscle ache or whatever. And at its worst, I can spend most of the day in bed. I will often not want to do things, I'll not want to go out, and if people are living with chronic diseases of any kind, that can significantly impact their want and desire to do anything in life, right? Staying alive for one, dark, but you know what I mean, let alone I'm gonna go for a workout. If you're in pain, a lot of people are like, Right, you have a little pregnancy niggle today, we don't need to go into it, and you're like, mm-hmm I don't want to work out today. If you had that all the time for years, can't blame people for not wanting to go to the gym when their body hurts you.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

When it takes so much more mental and physical exertion to do simple tasks like getting out of bed, putting on your socks, putting on your shoes. You have to help me put on my shoes now and my socks. Yeah, it is way harder to do that now.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

Um so it is not a matter of, oh, I'm gonna go for a simple workout, I'll be right back.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

I've had many days where I couldn't where I really struggle to put on my uh shoes and socks, and it's unlikely that I'm gonna go, you know what, I'm gonna go to the gym and deadlift.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

Yeah. Or you can't say it's not as simple as I'm gonna go out for a lovely stroll through the neighborhood. What if walking induces pain?

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

It's not so pleasant anymore.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Yeah. Let's round this, let's round this up.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

Uh and then the last the last thing for this one was again, we also see medications. We medications was actually all in all three buckets or categories. So again, depending on the medication, can make you feel more lethargic, right? Make you less willing to engage in exercise and physical movement in general. So that's another one.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Yeah, so this is going to be a slightly image-heavy moment because I know some people can't see the images. I'll describe the images to you. But generally speaking, if you have the CSAW of calories in and calories out, there are some factors that are environmental or external, and there are some that are biological. And like we have discussed, sometimes they are relatively small contributors, sometimes they can be large contributors, but there are things that can influence your body weight. So if you gain weight, it is a natural consequence of that. So food marketing doesn't sound like you you couldn't say food marketing causes obesity, but if an increase in food marketing encourages children to eat more junk food, then therefore it does cause weight gain. So these are kind of contributing factors. So one of the most popular images, possibly even the most popular image, is something from the UK Foresight Report. Someone even messaged me literally a couple of weeks ago saying, What's that image I've seen you post about before? And I already knew what it was, and I sent it back, and they were like, That's the one, thank you. So the UK have this foresight report where it discusses obesity, and it literally has over a hundred different factors that contribute to obesity. And you can look at any one of these individual factors, and if you're a just eat less, move more bro wanker, you would be like, that's bullshit, that's bullshit, that's bullshit, genetics doesn't count because you can still eat less food, blah blah blah blah blah. All of these things are contributors to some degree, whether it's to resting energy expenditure or appetite or food reward or whatever. Right in the middle, right in the middle is still energy balance. Yep. These are factors that influence energy balance. They are they are factors that influence the number of calories you consume, the number of calories you burn. Whether it's hormonal or biological or appetite or environmental or whatever, calories in, calories out is the tip of the iceberg, but there are hundreds of things under that that influence those two very simple sounding factors.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Now, with all of that said, we've gone through a lot. What are the primary takeaways from this episode? My takeaway for the audience is simply to say that none of these things that we've discussed violate calories in, calories out.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

No.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

It does not make it invalid. It does not make energy balance invalid. However, I want people to walk away from this episode with an appreciation of the sheer complexity of the many, many, many factors that influence obesity.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

That is my primary takeaway.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

My biggest takeaway that I would like people to take from this is there are people who diet and lose body fat very, very easily who often do not resonate with how many people who really struggle to change their body weights, and that's part of the reason we talk about this a lot. My second take-home message that I would like people to take, and I don't mind ending the episode on this, the top researchers in the world who look at obesity, there are whole research papers that look at genetics or epigenetics or food environments or neurobiology. If the top researchers in the world all universally, unanimously agree that obesity is complex, and some fuckstick on social media says, actually it's easy, just eat less, move more. Who do you think is more informed on this topic? That is why we are doing this episode. This is a median, this is us kind of trying to introduce you to some of the complexities that a lot of people just don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Yeah. And weight loss might be easy for you, it does not mean it's going to be equally as easy for everybody else for the reasons that we've gone over today.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

That's the end. Bing part up. Hope you've enjoyed it. I'll catch you at the next one.