A Registered Dietitian Debunks the Biggest Nutrition Myths on Social Media ft. Kylie Sakaida

In this episode, we sit down with one of our closest friends, Registered Dietitian and New York Times best-selling author of 'So Easy, So Good', Kylie Sakaida (nutritionbykylie) to answer some of the internet’s most controversial nutrition questions.

There’s a lot of strong opinions online about food right now, from seed oils and monosodium glutamate (MSG) to soy and the latest updates to the U.S. dietary guidelines. In this conversation, we explore where the confusion comes from and what the evidence actually says.

We discuss:

• The biggest nutrition myths on social media
• The internet debate around seed oils
• The truth about monosodium glutamate (MSG)
• Common myths about soy
• How nutrition misinformation spreads online
• The new U.S. dietary guidelines
• What balanced, sustainable nutrition actually looks like
• Nutrition for people with ADHD

Our goal with this episode is to bring nuance and clarity to topics that are often discussed in very black-and-white ways.

If you’ve ever felt confused by conflicting nutrition advice, this conversation is for you.

If you would like monthly lifting workouts, you can join the Momentum by Sohee fitness app. http://momentumbysohee.com

If you are interested in fat loss science, you can purchase Ben's best-selling comprehensive fat loss book, Everything Fat Loss. http://geni.us/EverythingFatLoss

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Today is a monumental day, and we are extremely excited to introduce you to our first ever guest. Obtaining both her bachelor's and master's degrees in nutrition science from Boston University before working as a registered dietitian in Boston Children's Hospital, Massachusetts General Hospital, and Cedar Sinai Medical Center. She has since gone on to social media amassing over 7 million followers and becoming a New York Times best-selling author. Not only is she incredibly successful and intelligent, she is one of the kindest people that we have ever met, and we are immensely privileged to call her one of our closest friends. It gives me a huge pleasure to introduce you to Kylie Sakida. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_05 0:44

Hi. What an intro!

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah, of course. Of course.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Wow. That means a lot to me. Hi. Thanks for having me. Good job, babe.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

That was really impressive. It is a pleasure. We were so excited when we talked about having our first guest on. We both said we would love Kylie. And also, one specific person not only said, please have Kylie on your show, they said please make Kylie your first guest. So that very one specific person better be very, very happy to do that. We did it just for them.

SPEAKER_04 1:13

Made your dream come true.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

I'm honored.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

And also the most important fact is that we are very close friends in real life.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

This is really important.

SPEAKER_04 1:24

Prudential aside, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

This is true. I think there are it's nice when you have people who are well respected and very intelligent on your show or on social media, but I am more of a proponent of sticking up and amplifying people who are kind, and that is why I always shout so loudly about you, because we have so much love for you. So we are super, super honored to have you here, especially as our first guest.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Guys, you too.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

You too, thanks.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Whatever they just said, right back at you.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Back at you.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

No, truly, it's it's an honor to be here today as your first guest, and also an honor to be your friend. And I remember last year when we were standing in this exact room. Oh, yeah. And you were showing me you're like the podcast room was finished. Yeah. And I was like, that's gonna be so cool. And now I like watched your first podcast. Actually, I mean I I keep up with your podcasts.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

Many episodes in, and hopefully we'll keep going.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Also, I specifically said when you want to come on. I was like, if you come on first, you need to be aware that our audience listenership will be lower now, and you're like, I don't care.

SPEAKER_04 2:34

But also means you can come back later on. Hey, I'm always make a reappearance.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

I'm just happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

Every episode you come on, it'll get subsequently weirder and weirder. And more of our points will come out.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Ooh, I don't know about these three. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Before So he asked the first question, it is uh worthwhile pointing out that at times we are probably, I say we, Kylie and Sohi are probably going to go off on tangents. It's your job to keep us on the and I might have to round them up and get them back in the conversation pen like a And I have I'm I'm trying to stay on track today.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

I'm I'm gonna try my hardest.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

I'm not sure. But you can kick things off and I will just occasionally bring things back.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Honestly, it's quite risky when the two of us get together because I'll call her to ask one question and then we chat for two hours about everything but the one thing that I called her to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

And then we're like, what were we doing? Wait, what were we talking about?

SPEAKER_04 3:29

Or like, I don't remember who's in the numbers so looking forward to this. Okay, I'm gonna get into the first question. Yeah, go ahead. I'm impressed. It only took however many minutes. It's actually been an hour.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

I was just gonna say, it reminds me of the time that you were leaving our house after everyone had already left. You had said goodbye, you were waiting at the door, and it was still 45 minutes afterwards.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Oh, we've one more thing. Oh, we'll have one more thing. And I think we went outside.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

And then we were walking by the car, and we were still walking towards your car, talking, talking, slowly, slowly, talking, talking.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

So, okay, we should go now. Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

It's always like I I like FaceTime you guys, and then I'm like, oh yeah, I just called because and like I just like called for a random reason. And then we just end up facetiming for like hours. I think there was this one time this past summer, I was FaceTiming you guys because I was in New York and you were here in LA, and I just started making dinner. Yes, I remember. I was like, I'm just gonna make dinner while I'm talking to you guys.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

I actually took screenshots of that because you were making a dinner that was a recipe from your book. Oh, exactly. And you were like, This is really good.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

You're like, oh wait one second, let me make another photo of this while you're up.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

But it wasn't in this book. It was, I was like, I'm gonna put this in the next book because it was it was so good that I was like, Can you say that?

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Can you say that? Oh it was the next book?

SPEAKER_02 4:46

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

We might trend we might trend that book.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

I mean, it's okay. I could say it. I could say it. Because who knows? Yeah, we'll see.

unknown 4:57

Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Oh wait, wait, wait, wait. Is this the episode where we're talking about the anyway bridge? This is the anyway bridge.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

The anyway bridge. I will explain this if that's okay, mainly because I'm slightly worried I won't get any words in for the rest of the episode. So he once said to me, She will sometimes go off on a tangent and she'll go, anyway. So what I was saying, and then I'll and she does it. And I said to her, kind of pointed this out, and she said it's actually strategic because I tell I say anyway as an announcement mid-conversation to let the listener, as in you, know that she hasn't forgotten what you asked.

SPEAKER_04 5:30

And I'm coming back.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

And that's why when she goes off on a tangent, she'll sometimes go, anyway. So what I was saying, and that's literally just for you to let you know that she's still anyway. And earlier when you're earlier when you were doing it, you said anyways, and I was like, anyway, bridge.

SPEAKER_04 5:45

It wasn't anyway, bridge. So, anyway, back to our actual questions for the podcast. Besides the mind-blowing intro, which I don't know that I've ever heard anyone give such a beautiful intro without actually reading off a script. You memorized all of this.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

It's because we're on too tight a budget for a teleprompter at this point. I think that anything it makes.

SPEAKER_04 6:05

I know, but you didn't even have notes to reference off of. Anyway, that was anyway. Every time I say it now, I'm gonna pause. I see what you're doing. Okay, besides the intro, everything he covered, obviously he covered basically your professional resume. Are there any other background facts that you think the audience should know about you?

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Oh, see, I didn't prepare as well as Ben. Um, let me think.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Like professionally or just get her off. This is a waste of time.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Professionally or anything. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

I wasn't sure what to include in the intro, and then I thought, mm, maybe if I missed it.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

You covered it pretty well. Um you Boston University, the hospitals. Um I that's it. I like video games.

SPEAKER_04 6:55

Uh I think you do love overcooked. I panicked. We we get really into this game we play together sometimes called Overcooked.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

I can put a video on the screen of the dictating strategy with a drop.

SPEAKER_04 7:08

I think it's interesting to note that you can correct me if I'm wrong. You started social media during the pandemic while you were working in the hospital.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

And you know what? Yeah, that would have been a really that would have been a better fun fact. All I had in that moment, by the way, was I like video games and I don't like butterflies. And I was like, I feel like one of them is slightly more relevant, but yet it's not. And then it came out and made no sense. But yeah, um, I started during the pandemic. I was still working as an outpatient dietitian. So um I worked inpatient, I worked outpatient, and I worked in research. And when I was outpatient, I worked as a journalist. So I worked with patients with multiple or any condition basically that would come in um for nutrition counseling. And during that time, that was the pandemic, and I had started to see a lot of misinformation on social media, as we all did, and I was like, what if I just, you know, I don't know, correct some of these things and try to be helpful during this time, and it kind of, you know, took off from there unexpectedly. And I was actually really, like, really set and really interested in getting my doctor of public health a few years after that because I really wanted to go into public health. I really wanted to be able to implement large-scale interventions and to create more of that impact rather than just working one-on-one with patients. But then I realized that social media was a really cool tool that would allow me to reach millions of people in just like a few minutes or a few hours. So I realized in my own way, this was hopefully a way that I could still create some positive change without having to go back to school so far. But it's something that I'm hopefully looking forward to in the future.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

One thing that I have always really loved about your social media is I feel it like it's a positive place. You know how sometimes you watch people's social media videos, sometimes you can feel a bit stressed or whatever. I always got the vibe, I always got a positive vibe from you. And then obviously, we met you a few years ago. You can tell the story if you want. And I remember being like, she's so much nicer than I even thought. And that was why when I made that video about you before your book, it it seemed like I did a terrible hook at the beginning because I said, Have you ever met someone that you thought you would like and they turned out to be an arsehole? Because I follow people on social media who seemed friendly, and you meet them and you realize it's a facade, it's a it's a show where it's it's a kind of character. And I met you, and I was like, She's so much lovelier than we even realized that you were going to be.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

Well, yeah. And so I would say with your social media, you've you've grown on social media faster than probably anyone that we know, and it's easy to see why. But I remember I started seeing you pop up on my feed more and more and more, and I specifically remember, you'll probably remember this. There was okay, a couple of ones. One was when there was a trend where you try to do something within like two or three minutes, and you're like, I'm gonna make breakfast tacos in three minutes, and you're like, and then do and I did and three minutes and the taco broke at the end.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Oh, you remember that? But it still came out. And that's where it cut. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:10

No, I was like, oh, that was fun to see. And then there was another one where there was, I think, uh the cucumber slicing with the hand over the was it like a Kylie Jenner. It's like a Kendall Jenner kind of one of those jokes. So you were slicing cucumbers with your hands obviously going all the wrong way, and I thought that was funny. But the thing that actually made us connect on social media officially was you did a trending audio where you were like throwing a loaf of bread at the supposed person behind the camera, basically in de in defense of carbs. Right. Right. And I think your last scene had you flying through the air with a a watermelon or something in your hand, and then it was so funny that I I recreated it and I tagged you on on Instagram, and then you followed me back, but we didn't talk. Right. We didn't come, we didn't engage, we didn't we're we were like in the RDMs or anything. And then I think it was not until one or two years later we met for the first time at an actual Meta event, an influencer event. And I was like, wait, that's Kylie! I did your video two years ago. She throws the bread. I threw the bread, I was like, I did the loaf, and I did the baguette and I did the watermelon throwing flying through the air. And I we were in Spain at the time, and I remember I remember it. You were like, you went to the gym and I came back to being pulled the mattress onto the ground to obviously cushion my landing, and I was like, okay, I have a couple more attempts to do, and I was I was doing all that, but that's actually how we connected.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Yeah, I I walked in to see her just jumping on a mattress and regular shoes.

SPEAKER_04 11:42

Obviously, since then we've come become really good friends. You were at our wedding celebration. You actually uh co-hosted my baby our baby shower recently.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Ow, I love it. My baby, oh wait, wait, he's he's here.

SPEAKER_04 11:55

Yeah, we actually made it a co-ed baby shower, fun fact, which uh is not as common, but anyway.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

There's the anyway bridge.

SPEAKER_04 12:04

It was so fun. Testament to our friendship.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

It was very people are gonna pick up on the anyway bridge now. Obviously, you are extremely popular on social media. Is there anything that people don't know about you? I think people who follow you on social media feel like they know you well, but they still only see the kind of content that you put out. Is there anything you want to share, like a fun fact for any of your followers who might not know this about you?

unknown 12:31

Like video games.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

You can do that if you want. You can do anything. I just sometimes it's sometimes it's nice to learn about the person behind the scenes, you know. It's very rare you do these podcasts, and we're very privileged to have you here.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

So No, and I think, as you know, I I just I hate talking about myself. So this question makes me inherently uncomfortable because I have to say something about myself. Okay, well. So I think that was just my go-to answer because it, you know. Yeah. And I I guess that something that I I don't think I feature very often are like I think my friendships with people, like whether it's offline friends or online friends, just because um I never want it to feel as though um people um I think like in social media and in this world, like you never want your friendships with people to feel transactional. And I I try not to, you know, ever make someone uncomfortable with my friendship with them. And I guess something that I mean, at least that's important to me is that I value my friendships and relationships with people so much, and I yeah, and your friendship is a relationship that I value very much.

SPEAKER_04 13:40

So I'm you've really gone out of your way for obviously us, but also your other friends where you'll fly across the country, fly to a different country altogether to be there for them for their special moments, and I I think that's really wholesome.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

I will if you want, I can answer it for you. I I've talked about it a little bit. I've I've talked about it a little bit before, but if it makes you uncomfortable you talking about it. Uh one thing that I especially loved about you is one of the first times that we talked properly, you actually came over to our house when you were closer with Sohi. And I remember sitting outside talking to you and you were talking to me about my book. And I was talking to you about your book project that might happen one day. And I remember you being so incredibly supportive about my book that I was blown away because I'm like, I don't really know you, I don't know you that well. And it seemed odd that someone who I spent very little time with was being more supportive than almost anyone I'd ever met. And that was why when you left, I immediately said to Sophie, I love her, I think she's amazing. It's so rare to get that initial.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

I remember that night too, and I cr I like tell people about that night and how that was actually a big reason why I I think got the courage and motivation to write the cookbook was because when we were talking about your book, and I think we briefly talked about like the idea of my book, and I was like, you know, I I want to do this cookbook, but I'm really nervous that it it's it's one of those feelings where you're like, but why would I why why should I write a cookbook when there are so many other more talented, knowledgeable, cooler people out there who probably deserve one more? And that was kind of the mindset that I was in at that time. And um I think that conversation really encouraged me to lean into my own view of nutrition and health and to not be ashamed or embarrassed of it because I think at the time I was kind of a little intimidated that I wasn't like a professional chef and that that would turn people off from buying a cookbook from someone who isn't a professional chef. But I remember you specifically saying, like, I think that's exactly why someone would want that information, and I was like, Oh, never thought of it that way.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

What what I'm hearing is all the credit should go. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

So that's actually your cookbook up there. Yeah. But I mean, I I think I only mentioned my friends because I'm also very proud of them, and I feel like I I don't know, if I could talk about them all the time, I would. And to be fair, I do I do talk about you guys all the time to people that don't know you. So that's so cute.

SPEAKER_04 16:09

Well, you know what? I will say that being friends with you is so easy, so good. Come on. I tried to be going on. But those of you who don't know, and hopefully all of you do, that is.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Maybe it might feel you stopping because it's making the numbers on I don't know what was coming because I think it's gonna be terrible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:30

I got through the first half of the title. That is the name of uh Kylie's Ben's Times New York Times bestselling Ben's Kylie's New York Times bestselling recipe book. So easy, so good. I'll try to drop it in a couple times or maybe throughout this episode. Yeah. It's okay. You're good. Don't worry about it. Next question. Let's get back on it.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

I'm gonna say next question. I feel like it's basically the first question that we've asked. First proper question. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 16:59

Actual nutrition question. Okay. Yes. Recently, the US released updated dietary guidelines. And we, if you're on social media, you saw a lot of people talking about it. Give us an overview of what it recommends. What parts of it do you like? What would you want to see changed?

SPEAKER_02 17:18

I think that, you know, there are if I'm looking, if we're looking at the guidelines, I think that there are certain things that, you know, I I will agree with, of course. Like I think that it's important to eat, you know, your portion size and to pay attention to those and to prioritize protein foods as well as fiber-rich foods at meals. I think it's important to eat fruits and vegetables throughout the day. And I think that part of the guidelines, they do say that canned and frozen vegetables are okay. And that's nice. Yeah. And I I was like, you know what, that's actually really great, and I love that they're promoting that accessibility. Um, but I think the issue that I, along with other dietitians have, and something that we're a little concerned about, is the promotion or the yeah, I I would say the promotion of saturated fats. Yeah. Not to say that, you know, you can't have any saturated fats, but saturated fats are definitely promoted to a certain extent that we haven't seen them in previous guidelines. And not because there's a lot of evidence supporting the inclusion of saturated fats and increased amounts of saturated fats, but I think the concern is that there's like an emphasis on like beef tallow or butter in cooking. And not to say that you absolutely can't do that, because you you can, but there's almost um an inconsistency in the messaging because in one sentence they will say, you know, limit your saturated fat intake to ten percent of your daily calories. But when you do the math for this, if you use like 2,000 calories in a day, 10% of that is 200 calories, and I think 200 calories from saturated fat is around 22 grams of saturated fat per day, because nine calories per gram for fat. And then beef tallow is six grams of saturated fat for one tablespoon, butter is seven grams of saturated fat per tablespoon, and let's say a cup of whole milk is eight grams of saturated fat per cup. And the reason I bring up whole milk is because that was also encouraged in the guidelines is to choose full fat dairy, which again I I'm I think dairy is fine and I think it's fine to include in the diet. Whether or not you choose whole is up to you and up to your health goals, but it's not something that I would recommend choosing a hundred percent of the time. So even if you were to, let's say, cook with beef tallow and cook with butter for maybe two meals a day, and on top of that drink a cup of milk, you're already at your daily limit of saturated fat for the day. So I think that's the mismatch that a lot of us are seeing.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

I think there was a uh quite a few comments talking about how it seemed very pro animal protein versus plant protein. And um I know that you're a big advocate for plant proteins and fibre, for example. And I think a lot of the guidelines almost look, from my perspective, almost like they're written by more kind of carnivore, low-carb people, because when they talked about carbohydrates, some of the wording they use seemed like they were nervous to promote plant-based sources rather than animal-based sources. Is that the vibe that you also got?

SPEAKER_02 20:35

Yeah, and again, I'm a consumer of animal protein, but I'm still aware that it's important to include plant-based protein, and I think the more plant-based protein the better. And even though I still consume animal protein, and I think that it's totally fine for others to do so, I think that encouraging it as something that is more nutrient-dense in comparison to plant-based protein isn't necessarily helpful. So I think that it is okay to say, you know, eat fruits and vegetables every day, we're on board for that. To eliminate added sugars that's consistent with previous messaging, but it's more about the concern and confusion around saturated fats and where they fit into our diet realistically.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Uh on the nutrition note, I know that something that you've been a big proponent of that, I don't know if you first saw it on Kylie or if it was like a simultaneous thing. And then something that I have also talked about is the ab add don't subtract message. Uh would you like to talk about that and explain it to anyone who's not familiar? I think if people have listened to our podcast, they might have heard us talking about it, but someone has talked about it a lot.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Yeah, I think that the ad don't subtract mentality is something that we all preach pretty consistently. And it's this idea that instead of focusing Focusing on, you know, what to restrict or what to subtract from your diet. It's about what can we get more of, and it kind of focuses on that abundance mindset rather than that scarcity mindset, which I think people might not be used to after being told for years and years that they have to limit this and they have to cut down on this many calories. So I think that this can be an easy way for people to focus on things that they might be missing. So instead of reducing added sugars because that you're getting too much of it, um, it should be what in this breakfast should I be adding? For example, maybe right now I'm only having a bowl of fruit. Although fruit is wonderful, although it's a um it is a great source of fiber, depending on the fruit. And let's say that it's berries, which is a great source of fiber. What can I add to this? Maybe this bowl of fruit, although it's nutrient dense, might not keep me full for too long. And at breakfast we want to make sure that we're eating enough so that we sustain that energy throughout the morning and that we're staying satiated. So let's try to add some protein to that. And protein sources can look different depending on um what your preferences are. So that can be a very classic Greek yogurt or cottage cheese or eggs or you know, whatever you want for protein. And then maybe on top of that, am I getting a source of maybe like a healthy fat in here too? And I think going from there instead of ooh, this is too much fruit, and fruit has a lot of sugar, and maybe I should be having, you know, something healthier than that, or restricting even like the amount of fruit that you're eating. So I think that this mindset helps people, I think, focus on the things that really are going to be helpful rather than things that might make you feel much more restricted.

SPEAKER_04 23:48

Yeah. I think this is a really powerful mindset shift for people with a long history of dieting attempts, like I did in the past, where everything was about what can you restrict, what can you reduce, what do you have to cut out of your diet? And at least from an eating behavior standpoint, I love talking about beh uh psychology of eating behavior. That's where my master's degree is in. But we know that restriction is a predictor of binge eating. So a lot of times when you try to subtract foods from your diet, especially diet foods that actually make you feel good or that you genuinely enjoy, you are more likely likely to then feel restricted, which could be harmful from a long-term eating behavior or sustainability standpoint. So, you know, at home, I'm always my my favorite ad additions lately are I don't even have to say, you could say chia seeds in yaga with fruit.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Literally just talking about your chia seeds.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

Yes, chia seeds are I I'm obsessed with chia seeds lately. They are such a fantastic source of fiber. But for dinners especially, I'm I'll be like, I made pasta, and I added spinach and bell peppers and beans. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

And also, not only that, you will often say, Here is dinner, but I have also made a dense bean salad or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 25:10

I love a dense bean salad. Me too. Yeah. And then also for satiety, I find personally, for me, whole eggs and avocados do a lot to keep me feeling satisfied for hours and hours. So even though someone might say, Oh, but that's calorie dense, I'm thinking, but it right helps regulate my eating behaviors over the course of the day. So to me, that's a win. Nothing.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

What when I've talked about the ad don't subtract message, it is often met with at least a small subset of people that get quite angry. And I think it's because to a lot of people the idea of dieting seemed very straightforward. So they would say, but does that mean you're advocating that people still consume this and consume this? I can't believe that you're telling people it's okay to drink sugary drinks and eat sugar and blah blah blah. And obviously that isn't actually quite what we're saying. It's more like there are a lot of people who notice they if they remove one food after X period of time, they want to eat it more than they did before. So he said, if you have a failed history of dieting attempts, perhaps it might be better to focus more on the things that you can do to improve your diet rather than focusing on the restriction and the avoidance and the sadness and the misery that dieting often tends to come with.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

And I think people also don't realize at the time, but when you focus on adding certain foods in, you naturally might not eat like certain foods that maybe you've been trying to specifically restrict that's been really hard because you're really fixating and focusing on restricting that food. So instead of just focusing on restricting this food, you still get the satisfaction of other foods that make up for it. And you might be getting more satisfaction from that other food that you're adding than you are from the food that you're trying to restrict. And naturally people find themselves moving towards their health goals in a way that actually works for them. Because I feel like with that add don't subtract mentality, it really focuses on the idea that nobody or it's very rare for someone to sustain long-term change when it feels like a punishment. Yeah. And oftentimes people see dieting and restriction as a negative thing, whereas it's almost reframing it as a positive thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Yeah. While we're on the note of focusing on what to add versus subtracting, I know that you are a bigger proponent of processed foods and you have defended processed foods more so than some dietitians or people on social media, and I would love for you to elaborate on that.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yeah, I think that processed foods get a bad rap, especially today.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

For context, we have just done an episode like a few ago about ultra-processed foods. So people listening to this hopefully will know what we're talking about. But good.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Yeah. Watch that first and then come back and then watch the rest of this. Um, but I think that this blanket shaming of processed foods often almost like moralizes from a place of privilege. Oftentimes, people who think of process there's so many layers to this, by the way. I have to deconstruct all of these. Peeled onion, yes. Okay, so I'm gonna start here and then I'm gonna jump here and I'm gonna go back here. Um, but I think a lot of people don't understand that not everyone has access to fresh produce and uh not everyone also has time to cook from scratch. Not everyone has time to cook a whole meal, or not everyone has like the budget for these healthy foods that are being promoted to them by maybe health influencers or long from health influencers online or even dietitians online. And I think that for many families, processed foods is what makes dinner possible oftentimes. And as someone who comes from a family like that, growing up, I or my family relied a lot on processed foods just because um it was much more realistic budget-wise, and we're still able to find ways to add vegetables to our diet. And I think when I say that processed foods can have a place in the diet, people often get offended because they think that I'm saying that you should be eating more ultra-processed foods and that they are inherently healthier, which I'm never I'm not I'm not necessarily saying that. I'm just saying that processed foods are often the most realistic and accessible option, and that nutrition advice that someone should receive should reflect that and meet them where they're at. And oftentimes nutrition advice doesn't meet people where they're at, which is what makes it so unsustainable and unrealistic. And for processed foods in general, I've unpacked that part. There's also the part that you touched on with your podcasts, which you should watch before you watch them. Um I think that processed foods also gets a bad rap because of the term like processed food, right? People don't understand what processing is. People don't understand that just even like a tub of Greek yogurt or anything frozen, anything that can still be nutrient dense can still be processed, and that and the fact that something is processed doesn't make it inherently unhealthy. Yeah. Sometimes it can just be convenient for people and be a realistic way to get in more nutrition. And I think that people just don't understand the messaging of processed versus ultra-processed and don't realize that a lot of foods that they're eating are processed, even though they don't see it as such. Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

This was one of the things that I think there's an issue with the term processed. I don't know, it's like process or processed. I say processed with food processing or ultra processing, is there is an inherently negative connotation with the word. If you say processed food, people immediately think bad, not realizing that everything they eat is processed to a degree. So even if you go full caveman paleo, whatever, they're still buying meat in a store that has been often like modified atmosphere packaging to keep it fresher for longer, for example, or or mincing or freezing or whatever. And I think uh it's it's become an imperfect word that then people have completely misunderstood that there's a whole spectrum of processing, and just because something is processed doesn't mean it's inherently bad. And one this reminded me of a story I said ages and ages and ages ago, but on like one reel, so I've never mentioned on the podcast. But I remember when I was probably in my twenties or whatever, and I used to joke with my mum because she had a whole cupboard, pantry, full of tin food, that a lot of it was expired. And I used to joke with her, like, why don't you throw this away? This is two years past its expiration. She's like, Ben, it'll be fine. If you open it, it's probably not even moldy, it'll be fine. And we used to joke about the fact she would hoard tins, and then one day she said to me, The reason she hoards tins is because when she was younger, she went through a period where she really struggled to afford food, and that was what she was making her family, including me, survive on. So when people say, You can never eat this, you can never eat this, if it's not organic, if it's not fresh, or whatever, there are a lot of people who hear that message and say, I don't think I can do that. What am I supposed to do? Yeah, exactly. And uh a lot of the time I know from our perspective, I don't want to speak for you, but when we talk about not being scared of food processing and understanding it's a little bit more complicated than that, is because a lot of people hear the term and they don't know how to apply that to their own circumstances.

SPEAKER_04 32:52

Yeah, exactly. I also love that you specifically mention the word privileged. And I say this because anytime I talk about privilege on my platform, anyways, people get really angry. I feel like they take it, they get offended, right? But the reality is a lot of the nutrition advice that we see circulating online is quite privileged, is quite elitist, to where you need to have money to afford a lot of the food, the better quote unquote better food alternatives that these influencers are recommending that in reality are actually completely unnecessary. And what we see happening is oftentimes if people are led to believe, oh, canned vegetables are not good because they're processed according to this person, but I can't afford fresh vegetables, so I'm not gonna eat any vegetables at all. And then they end up shooting themselves in the foot. Um so I personally I think talking about how to increase accessibility for food is really important and helping people understand you can still get in nutrients even if you're not filthy rich. You know, even if you are relying on a lot of packaged foods and canned foods and frozen foods. That's what I think. I think great idea. Okay. I want to talk about something that I saw on your stories a number of years ago that was so good. I remember I screenshotted it and I reposted it to my stories and I tagged you. You were going on one of your very rare ramps. Very rare rants about MSG. Mono sodium sodium glutamate. Okay. My question is what is what is where is all the bad rep for MSG coming from? And what is the reality of how nutritious or how healthy or unhealthy it actually is?

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Yeah. I like that you said one of your rare rants.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Very rare rants.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

No, yeah. Sometimes I just I get so um heated up. And an MSG is definitely something that I think like anything, I understand why people are cautious about things, right? Like they're being told so many things and they might physically experience it themselves, and I totally get that and I see that. But at the same time, it's one of those things that I'm like, no, like you don't have to avoid it. Like I hate seeing people have to restrict their diet unnecessarily in any way due to misinformation of some kind. But basically in the 1960s, there was a doctor who published this short letter, I think, in the New England, um, I think it was the New England Journal of Medicine, and he reported numbness and palpitations after eating at a Chinese restaurant. And MSG was just one of the things that he listed, you know, could potentially be the culprit. I don't think he specifically said it was this, but he just noted it. And this was dubbed as Chinese restaurant syndrome, which caught on pretty quickly, and there was um, I think a lot of anti-Chinese sentiments at the time, and not to say that's the only thing driving it, but I think it would be naive of me to say that that wasn't a small factor, and I think the pushback against MSG, especially because a lot of, you know, Asian restaurants had to specify that they don't have MSG in their foods versus a lot of American snacks and foods. Even though they had MSG, they weren't getting any of the SFLAC, which I thought was very interesting. But MSG was initially blamed. And I believe that they had started to conduct studies, and in one of the studies they injected rats with an absurdly high amount of MSG, I think like 500 times like the aver I think the amount that the average human would like at like typically consume, and obviously these results aren't applicable to humans. Right. And this kind of, you know, strengthened this anti-MSG movement. But in the 1990s, there were more studies that came out that couldn't replicate these findings and saw that even though people are saying that they're having these symptoms from um ch you know, that are very similar to Chinese restaurant syndrome, people who identified as MSG sensitive couldn't distinguish MSG from placebo at meaningful rates. So you know, not to say that these people have never experienced uncomfortable symptoms after eating at certain restaurants. People could still feel physical symptoms. I think that's what placebo can be, but also people can be sensitive to other ingredients as well. And um, sodium is obviously an issue for some people too. So it's hard because I don't want to ever negate someone's uncomfortable experiences, and I don't want to make people feel unheard um when it comes to any experience that they might have as a result from food. But as someone who has seen this research, I always tell people maybe it's important for us to see if there's something else that you might be sensitive to, or you know, let's try to experiment with like different amounts of certain things and go from there. But at the end of the day, from what I've seen, MSG is not necessarily something that had a little mini burp. I thought so.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

Can we do that?

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Did you know that yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Okay, yeah. Did you know that I can't actually burp? I can't burp at all. That's why it was like a it it comes and then it does it never happens. Notice how you've never seen me burp before. Well, it goes back down. It I never burped.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Actually, the first time the first time we met you afterwards, I said like really love her, love her. Like she seems so nice. Didn't see her burp once. Not sure if we can trust her.

SPEAKER_04 38:55

Yeah, I know. It's uh this is the funniest thing because you were so diplomatic and so professional and just mid-sentence, and now we're talking about burping, and I can remember what sentence she was on.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Do we do we keep that in? Do we just uh great in that case I will help because I I do this with Sophie where I like try and bring her back on track and I have to remember what you're talking about. One of the one of the things that I love about the angle you took with that is how considerate and compassionate you are for people who still feel a certain way with food. Because if someone listens to this or watches this and says, But I'm someone that gets headaches when I eat this food, for example, and they think it is MSG. I think sometimes if you can make them feel bad for experiencing that and it kind of alienates them. So I think uh maybe a different comparison for people is say people who think they are sensitive to gluten. Part of the reason that placebo trials are important is because it isn't necessarily just gluten they're eating. Sometimes they're eating a high quantity of carbohydrates, sometimes a high quantity of refined carbohydrates, sometimes foods that might bloat them for other reasons. Exactly, yeah. But they attribute it to the gluten. And I say this as someone who is nervous that I might be sensitive to gluten, but I also might be nervous that it's a placebo thing. And that is part of the reason placebo trials are important because you need to isolate how much of the psychology and also the other factors involved with food. So if you completely cut out all carbohydrates for ages and you feel different, it's not necessarily the gluten, it could be the carb content, the calorie content, other factors within the carb content like digestive digestive factors. And it isn't necessarily saying your symptoms are not valid, but it's making sure that you're attributing your symptoms to the right thing. Right. Rather than saying it's definitely Chinese restaurants. Right. For example.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

I think it's always like a hard conversation because it's a nuanced conversation and a very complex topic where a lot of of course I think that a lot of or as we talked about, part of that push against MHG definitely stems from, you know, that racism component. But what I see online is that people will say that they do experience symptoms from something and they might be accused of having those sentiments. And I understand the frustration that both parties feel in this moment. Where, you know, as someone who is Asian, I I'm like, you know, I think people should be okay with MSG, and I use MSG in my cooking, and I don't hide that. Um, because I think it makes it taste even better. But at the same time, like it's important to know the history, but to also understand that people can sometimes experience things that they can't explain themselves, and obviously I would hope that they can work with a healthcare provider to figure out what makes them feel that way and to not have to restrict something just for an un an unnecessary reason.

SPEAKER_04 41:48

As a side note, and we will not get into this. Your mention about giving them giving rats 500 times the normal dose actually made me think of this similar parallel argument we see with artificial sweeteners. I wondered if you were gonna say that where a lot of times they give rats many, many, many, many times the normal dose more than what any human could realistically consume in a day, a week, or even a month, and then they use that to say, therefore, this ingredient is bad for you.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

So sometimes if you inject an ingredient directly into a rodent's brain, it doesn't necessarily behave the same as if a human consumed it by mouth. That's also the same thing. Oh, absolutely. Right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 42:28

It's at the end of the day, it's still uh not a human-controlled trial.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

So on or is that right?

SPEAKER_04 42:34

Did I say that right? A randomized controlled trial in humans.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Same same, same same. We got you, we know you may have a human-controlled trial.

SPEAKER_04 42:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Uh on that note, are there any other commonly demonized foods or ingredients that you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_02 42:52

How much time? What time is it?

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Um we've some of our episodes have been close to two hours long. You've got as long as you want.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

I'll say to save us from being here all night, I'll say one, um, soy. Soy is a big one, yeah. I'm a big soy advocate. Um, as you know, I consume a good amount of soy. And tofu is my favorite food. And I think that a lot of there's a lot of fear around phytoestrogens, and also keep that also came from rat studies. There's a there's a common thread here. Um using amounts that are much higher than what people would normally eat. And I think that it's it's one of those it's one of those myths, again, that I I understand because there is I think a lot of confusion in the research, and I think over time research has been mixed depending on depending on how they've measured health outcomes. But in humans, moderate soy intake doesn't seem to Have meaningful effects on hormones. And I think the results of recent population studies suggest that, or not I think, I'm just trying to think of the types of studies, but recent population studies suggest that soy either has a beneficial or neutral effect on various health conditions, which I think is the opposite of what people would expect. I think people associate soy with increased risks of all of these negative health conditions, but soy is a really great option when it comes to like a like a plant-based protein, something we were talking about earlier. And I think that a lot of people, especially in um the United States, don't necessarily consume a lot of it and may not be as familiar with it if they didn't grow up with it.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

So I'm huge advocator of you know, I'm worried that this might be a can of worms. I don't want to open a can of worms. I'm not saying this to like start a whole new topic, but I have noticed that there is a lot of kind of alpha male, very pro-animal protein, very negative plant protein. So, for example, a common insult online is soy boy. And there's this kind of weird thing where if, for example, I said I consumed plant protein, I know there would be guys online or a subset of guys online who would mock me for saying that. Even though I'm not even saying I don't consume animal protein, it's become there's become such a negative connotation with soy and plant protein and testosterone that it's kind of become its own slur, which I find is a kind of odd thing, especially when so many people in Western culture, America or England or whatever, will often talk about how healthy some Asian populations are by comparison. And I feel like they sometimes cherry-pick like Asian populations do this, so we should try and do more of that, but then people have this phobia of soy, which is so commonly consumed in a lot of Asian cultures. Same with seed oils, but again, I'm not opening that kind of worms. But you know, I was going to later.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

I've also heard soy gives you man boobs. Yeah, yeah, that's a common one. I've heard that one too. Yeah. It's it's something that even when I was a nutritionist, or even when I was in college, I even had questions about it too, because of how much how much people talk about soy and demonize soy. And you know, if you don't want to have soy, that's okay, but don't make up wild claims about soy. Especially when I mean a large I mean a lot of people in Asia consume soy, and we don't necessarily see a lot of those claims. Trying to think of the right way to say this. A lot of people make claims about soy in the United States, but if that were true, that would transfer over to populations that consume even more soy. We don't see that. Correct. So I'm a I'm a soy girl.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Asian Asian cultures aren't facing the consequences that soy phobia would suggest that they would be facing.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

Yeah, like man boobs.

SPEAKER_04 47:12

Yeah. Also, I think back in the the clean eating days, at least for me, which was 2008 for about seven years, plus or minus maybe, um, I noticed that so soy products were not on the quote unquote clean list. And I also briefly worked with a coach who said, who's explicitly said, do not eat soy. And what ended up happening was, you know, people know I'm full Korean. Korean food has a lot of tofu and you know soy-based products in there. I ended up not eating a lot of my favorite Korean dishes for a long, long time. Or when I did, I would feel really terrible because I thought I was doing something bad for my health. And I think that's the we don't have to go into with this rant either, about how a lot of the nutrition advice is very Western food biased, I feel like. Yeah. And it doesn't make it doesn't leave room for ethnic is that the right word term? Like ethnic, like cultural dishes, Asian dishes and whatnot. And so I would say you've actually played a large role in so on social media in helping kind of normalize again the cultural dishes and remind people, hey, these things can, these kinds of Asian dishes. I know you say about half of your dishes in your so easy, so good cookbook are Asian. These foods can fit as part of a perfectly nutritious diet, which I think is an important, very important message for people like people like me. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

Yeah, I I had a really similar experience in college. A lot of dietitians aren't usually Asian. So I think oftentimes a lot of the nutrition recommendations and a lot of the information that we learned in class, like a long, you know, years and years ago now. So I think they've updated the curriculum a lot more. But at the time, a lot of information wasn't very applicable to um non-white populations. And I think I also had a really similar experience where I didn't understand how my own foods could fit into a healthy diet. And when I moved to Boston from Hawaii, I went through a similar period of thinking that my foods were just these un you know, yeah, wrong, unhealthy, and therefore I had to almost convert to eating kale and chicken. I mean, I ate chicken before, but it's different if you have it with kale and and you know, sweet potato. And um I had this I there was this pressure that my meals had to look a certain way, especially because they didn't look the same as my classmates. And I think that going to school in Boston or having my internship be at a hospital that served an underserved population was really helpful in also helping me come to terms with the fact that having knowledge of cultural foods can be really helpful in this field. And I think it's imperative for dietitians to want to learn and to be aware of the differences.

SPEAKER_03 50:18

I agree.

SPEAKER_04 50:20

This should come as a surprise to probably nobody who knows either of us, but you have ADHD.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

What? What?

SPEAKER_04 50:27

I also have ADHD. What?

SPEAKER_00 50:30

This is brand new information to me.

SPEAKER_04 50:32

This is not something that we could be secret. We're we're quite open about this.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

My friend, if you don't mind me saying, Sophie once said, I don't know if I said this on the podcast, she once said, I'm going to get tested for ADHD. And my friend said, Why?

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Why let me save you some money in time? You have ADHD. What's his point?

SPEAKER_00 50:54

I've actually said when you two together, you're kind of like sisters. Because to me, sometimes like I'm I'm used to reigning Sohi in, but sometimes both of you together, it's too much for one person. It's a lot to rein in. Too much for one person.

SPEAKER_04 51:06

It's an arcade game where it goes bing, being being like pinballed. It's like pinball when it wasn't even gonna help.

SPEAKER_03 51:13

We're just gonna make more sounds.

SPEAKER_06 51:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

I like how you picked up and then like the one guy.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

So like I was watching your podcast, I was yeah, watching your YouTube podcast, and you did mention you mentioned ADHD at some point, and you mentioned having me on, and then you mentioned that it would go just like that. I predicted.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

Did she talk about having you on in one of the episodes?

unknown 51:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

It was one of the first few episodes.

SPEAKER_04 51:43

And funnily enough, on a different episode, someone in the YouTube comments asked, this to be me. I was like, oh, what makes you the first person to ever say that to me? Anyway, there was a purpose to this point. Anyway, we both we both have ADHD. You make a lot of, I feel like ADHD friendly content for nutrition. What are some ways that people with neurodivergence can navigate nutrition when it feels impossible?

SPEAKER_02 52:14

Yes, I think that's a big question because there are so many different ways that I think someone with ADHD views food and systems that a neurotypical person might not even be aware of. And I like to tell people to kind of like build on structure, not rely on willpower. I think willpower, that's like a very loaded term. I think in the ADHD world too. And it's I think so important to simplify your systems, specifically like your food systems. So I tell people, you know, really focus on the idea of like mechanical eating versus intuitive eating. I think intuitive eating is confusing for some people with ADHD because for them, they tend to get distracted and they hyperfixate and they forget to eat and then they have time blindness and they quickly lose track of time. So that's why a lot of people with ADHD might set alarms for meals, and they don't necessarily rely on their hunger signals because they might not be aware of them as much as like your typical or as much as your neurotypical person would. So I think that that's a big thing that I notice, and it's interesting because a lot of people without ADHD can't fathom the idea of accidentally missing a meal. It doesn't even come from a place of wanting to restrict, it truly just comes up from a place of just being so into something else that everything else just goes out the window. So everything that I try to do revolves around this idea of making it as easy as possible while you're laughing.

SPEAKER_00 53:52

It's a terrible time to laugh. But when you said that, I just feel like I have to explain this to people now. I've seen you forget about a meal whilst it is in front of you. You can be halfway through a meal and you'll be doing something else. And I will almost remind you, like, are you gonna finish that? And you'll go, Oh, I forgot that I was even eating it. So when you said some people forget to eat meals, I was trying not to laugh because I was thinking of all the times I've seen you, not even with meals, like see you halfway through an email that you're not gonna send and then five hours later, you still haven't sent something.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

In the way that I was switching today between emails and food. Yeah, yes, and I would just keep forgetting about my emails. Yeah, yeah. So many unfinished tasks, so many all the time. Probably forgetting one right now as we speak.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

I I didn't mean I didn't mean to interrupt. It was just as you as you were saying it, I was I could feel myself giggling and I was thinking about thinking back to all the times where you were just sitting there doing something and you completely forgot you were doing it. Yeah. And I'm like, did you say you would send an email like literally three hours ago? And you said I did send it. Wait, did I? And then you'll come back and go, I didn't send it. And then I say if you send it now, and you go, Oh no, wait, I still haven't done it. So I just I thought maybe if I put that in there, people who understand like oh yeah. Neurotypical might suddenly relate to that a little bit more and think, okay, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 55:10

Yeah, and you don't realize sometimes you don't notice hunger cues until it's really urgent. And at that point you're like, I'm so hungry, like what do I do? And you reach for the nearest thing. So a lot of what I try to do is make it so that we prevent ourselves from getting to that point, but also when we do get to that point, what are we gonna reach for? And how do we make it easy to grab something that's gonna be filling and nutritious? So I also tell people to think of meals as formulas and not recipes. So when you think of a template for creating a meal and assembling a meal, you might want to do something like vegetables and protein and a starch, and that's just like a basic building block, and that can look like anything. They don't have to go together, they don't have to be compatible taste and flavor-wise, just try to get it together to see how you feel. So m I think in college I would do something like a Trader Joe's pre-cooked rosemary balsamic chicken, they still sell today. And then I would just get a microwaveable pack of frozen rice. And then I would microwave broccoli, and you're still getting your fiber from your broccoli, that's your vegetable, you're still getting carbs from the rice, you're getting protein from the chicken, and that's the most I could handle at that moment because I was too busy like studying and um even though it's not something that people would find ideal, because in a lot of people's heads cooking from scratch is ideal. Uh-huh. Not using the microwave is ideal doesn't necessarily mean that foods are less nutritious, but I think that's just the health space that's really popular online. But I like to tell people to focus on that template when they're trying to eat and not worry about cooking and chefing it up, but just assembling, just trying to assemble a meal together. I think that a lot of people get really stressed out by meal prep too because it feels really overwhelming. I also don't like meal prepping because I feel really stressed about having to get all the ingredients and then trying to make sure that I have enough of everything and then cooking it, and then I'm like, oh, I don't actually really want to eat that anymore. And it's like the second day. Often what works for people is ingredient prep rather than meal prep. So trying to prep individual components of a meal. So prepping like ground beef, and then when you actually have it the day of, you can flavor it how you want. Prepping a big batch of rice and then freezing it, and then you know, just using it in different meals. And then for vegetables, you know, whether that's you know, roasting vegetables or trying to make it so that you've tried to already cook this vegetable, but then you can just add some sort of flavor or sauce to it. That typically works a lot better for people who have that fatigue from meal prep. And last but not least, I know we were talking about processed foods, but I'm a big proponent of convenience foods because they help convenience foods meet people where they're at. Yeah. And whether that's like a bagged salad or canned beans, both of which I've had today, um rotisserie chicken, something that I love to buy and eat all the time. I think convenience foods can be one of the most valuable resources for people with barriers when it comes to meal prep and eating healthy when it feels really overwhelming.

SPEAKER_04 58:32

Yeah. Oh my god, so relevant. This is actually relevant. Speaking of Trader Joe's and processed foods. And cultural foods, this is the intersection of this is a Venn diagram. I'm in the middle, okay?

SPEAKER_06 58:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 58:43

Trader Joe's, they have they sell, you know, kimp now. Yes. They have tofu kimp. Yes. I've had we have some in our freezer. I'll have that, and I'll add sometimes a can of tuna or something, and then I'll slice half an avocado and I'll eat that as a meal sometimes when I feel overwhelmed. You know, it's crazy that you say that because I've done the same exact thing.

SPEAKER_02 59:03

Really? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

We've actually even stocked up on some of them, the kind of more, I wouldn't necessarily more say more processed, but more convenient foods specifically for after a baby is born.

SPEAKER_04 59:15

I'm like, I don't want to take even 10 minutes to prepare a meal. Don't I can microwave this for two minutes though? Yep. And in the meantime, I can get my cantuna and my avocado ready. And I'm I'm happy. Absolutely. But for those exact reasons you mentioned, but yeah, ADHD.

SPEAKER_02 59:29

Yeah, no. Jimmy. Have you heard of ADHD? No, but that's that's like the perfect time, I would say. Like, especially when, you know, people are busy, people have different phases of life, and this is about to be a really busy one. And I think that convenience foods definitely have a really great place that can make your life easier and help you still nourish your body during a really busy time.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

You uh said earlier in the episode that you were talking about myth busting on social media, and obviously we have done a fair amount, me especially, of myth busting on social media. What is the biggest myth that you see on social media at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

I'm scared to say it. People get so mad every time I say this.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

You don't have to say it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

I'm gonna say it. You've he's forcing me. Ooh.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:26

What about them specifically? The fear around Where do we start?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

Where do we start?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:32

That warrants an entire episode, I feel like. That that is, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

If you're feeling nervous, I am ready to already back up what you say. Where I if I hear people talking about seed oils, nine times out of ten, their video is garbage. My words, not yours, to the point where it's almost become a litmus test of whether you could trust someone on social media, because most people couldn't give you an accurate explanation of what seed oils even are, but it's become such a big phobia of people that I've seen people getting angry just because someone has said I consume seed oils sometimes. So that in similar uh along similar lines of talking about Asian cultures earlier, if you went to some Asian countries and said that they could never have sesame oil, for example.

unknown 1:01:30

I love sesame oil.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:31

I know. So good.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

But it's just it's just become this thing where people rant about seed oils and talk about all these things that uh they will cause, and most of the time it's it's just nonsense. I'm not even super sure where this has stemmed from and why it's got so out of control.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

That's a good question. I'm trying to think about the path to which seed oils became this really controversial uh topic, and I don't actually know exactly where it came from or where that fear stemmed from. But it's frustrating to see because if it's never great to see a food become so mischaracterized, regardless of whether or not it's nutrient dense or not. But seed oils I I I okay. What a lot of people hear about seed oils is that they're inflammatory and that if you consume seed oils, then and then they usually list like all of these really bad things that can happen if you consume seed oils, but the research shows the opposite. And I think a lot of people are always really surprised to hear that, so much so that they usually try to deny that that's also true.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:44

That what that always confuses me because anytime I've looked into the research on seed oils, I'm like, the research shows that it's neutral to beneficial to your health. And what what are okay, are they reading research papers if at all? And if not, where is this coming from?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

I have never seen in nutrition science, I don't think I have ever seen such a large disparity between what research actually says and what people claim the research says. And it makes me think a lot of people who make claims about them just aren't reading research papers at all. And sometimes there are some people who will cite certain research papers, and I would kind of explain it as if there's a mountain of papers on one side and then there's one paper on the other, sometimes you can tell when they pick up that one paper and say, look at this, they're really bad for you. Right. And you're like, There are newer papers, there are r more recent review papers or meta-analyses or better quality papers.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:42

But they also don't know the difference between all the different types of studies that you can conduct and how one might be much more telling than another one. And I think that's what's really difficult in the science field is I think scientists all agree that we want science to be accessible. We want papers to be accessible. I we don't have anything to hide. But a lot of people don't know how to interpret scientific research, and I wish that weren't the case. I really wish that people could just look at a paper and know exactly what it means, but it takes so long to even understand why certain methods are used in different studies and why maybe one is more effective at measuring this than the other, and why results are significant, not just statistically significant, but how does that actually translate to real life? Yeah. And it does take a good amount of understanding and training to be able to do that. And as much as I want science to be accessible, it oftentimes can get into the hands of people who might not know how to meaningfully interpret something and therefore will take the wrong message from it and amplify it in a way that isn't very helpful.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:55

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:57

Nearing the end of our podcast episode, a lot of times I hear people say nutrition is so overwhelming, I don't know where to start. What would be one small but meaningful change someone can make to their nutrition to get things moving in the right direction?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:16

I think that I understand why nutrition is such an overwhelming thing because as we talked about, there are so many things that people are saying that you should do or you shouldn't do. But I think the one thing that I tell people, right, kind of building on the idea of adding and not subtracting is just just add a vegetable to something that you're already eating. Yeah. It doesn't have to Ice cream. Yeah. Lettuce. You know what? Add a let us sleep to your mint chocolate chip. I don't know what I meant. Just like whatever you're eating. Just add a vegetable. It doesn't have to be like it can be a meal or snack, and it can be whatever you're doing. But like I used to like I'm still a big pepper. Pepperoni pizza fan, but my introduction to salads as a kid was a Caesar salad with a pepperoni pizza. And I know that there are going to be people who say Caesar salads aren't even very healthy, and that your voice maybe laugh.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:25

Caesar salads are for Caesar salads, pepperoni pizza. See, I'm getting the conversation shifter. I do have a purpose here.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:34

Caesars. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Caesars.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:41

Or bromine lettuce has no fiber.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:43

Or like nutrients or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:45

I don't even know what you said then. Bromane lettuce has no fiber. Yeah, I can do it again for you. Yeah, please do. I'm keeping both in. Both are going in the episode. I just need to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:57

Bromane lettuce has no fiber. Nutrients. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

But I think that whatever way you want to have a vegetable, have it. It doesn't have to be the most nutrient-dense way. It doesn't have to be raw without any seasonings. Like however way you like it, add it in to whatever you're eating now, and then go from there. Because vegetables are truly one of the biggest gaps when it comes to what Americans need in their diet. And I'm always a proponent of adding more fiber. And of course, some vegetables have more fiber than the other, but mini burp. We just say I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:36

Just keep just keep it going. It'll be fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:39

Let me think about what I was talking about. Um oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

Am I keeping in the mini burp?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:46

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:46

Because if so, I feel like this reminds me of the time where you're like, mm, when I go on podcasts, I'm never quite sure how much of my own personality to show. And now it's in signal because mini burp.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

But but just know it's not a real burp. Like, that's why it comes in my throat and then it just goes back down. And that's why you never hear anything. That's why I'm always like after I eat.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:15

Do you remember the question?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:17

She said I said small but meaningful change. You said add a vegetable to what you're eating.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:22

You looked at me petrified, like uh romaine lettuce. Romaine lettuce.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:28

Romaine lettuce.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:35

What's he saying with that? Oh yeah. So like whether that's like adding like spinach to your scrambled eggs, like even just like frozen peas thrown into pasta or sliced carrots, whatever you're having, or like, you know, with a sandwich or something. Just whatever way you like to get it in, just do it and then kind of go from there because I feel like people feel the need to make really big changes all at once when it's not necessarily helpful to try to enact all of these changes when it's going to be very unsustainable. So just taking small steps, uh seeing what sticks, seeing what you like, and then going from there.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:12

Great not to behavior change.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:15

Before we uh finish, we have a couple of uh quicker questions. What is one thing you have changed your mind on?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:24

That's not a quick question.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:26

Quick to say, not necessarily quick to answer.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:32

When I was just starting as a dietitian, I used to get a lot of questions about organic versus conventional, and I would tell people that if they really needed extra guidance to look for the dirty dozen and the clean 15, which is a list that the EWG releases every year on which produce has the most and least amount of pesticides, detectable pesticides. And I use this as a very quick, easy way to, you know, um suggest whether someone should buy conventional or organic. And I have since changed my mind on that. After becoming more acquainted with where after becoming more acquainted with what these lists mean and why they're not actually very helpful, I think a lot of times you might see produce on these lists that of course have pesticides, but the the amount of pesticides that they're detecting is so below the level of what is even considered um acceptable for human consumption that it's not significant. It's not chemically or significant or relevant. And you would need to eat like hundreds of a serving in order to even reach that minimum threshold that would be considered um that amount that would be recommended. So I think that it can be very misleading and confusing for consumers to see this and think that they have to buy this organic and this not.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:16

Now I've I've changed or I've I changed my mind on this years and years ago. I think like before social media. Yeah. Um while I was still practicing because I was presented with new information, and I think it's okay to change your mind. You should change your mind, yeah. You should change your mind when you have when you're presented with new information because I think that we're all learning and new information can come out. And new information can come out, and it's something that I still see talked about today every year when that list comes out.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:49

It surprises me, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:50

Yeah, there are there are people out there that are health professionals that still recommend it. And that's true. It's you know, it's not something that's necessarily it's it's not something that's actively harmful if someone chooses organic versus conventional, but it's not something that is helpful either.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:09

Right. Would you say then that it would be completely okay for someone to buy all their produce, conventional, non-organic, and still have a perfectly nutritious diet? Yeah. You heard it here.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:22

I actually so I actually went through a period when I was younger of only eating organic food. When I say only, as much as possible, and I did it for I'm going to say weeks, possibly months, I'm not sure. And I remember thinking this is really expensive. Yes. I didn't earn a huge amount of money at the time. It was really expensive. My my food, my food bills went up a lot, and I felt literally no different. There were there were there were no tangible differences that I could see, feel, nothing. And it was hard for me to then continue down that road. I'm not saying that every health benefit that is ever obtainable is something you will feel in a course of weeks, but it made me think, hmm, I wonder if I've been missold. Yeah. Just how important this is. And I think that's uh especially when something is often more expensive and the percentage of Americans, for example, obviously other countries exist, the percentage of Americans that already consume, say, fruits and vegetables, for example, is already so small that it makes me nervous when you are adding additional rules that could then be seen as discouraging consumption of those things anyway. So if only 10% of Americans, for example, consume enough fruits and vegetables, if you then say, by the way, they also need to be organic when you do these, I don't think those 10% are then going to suddenly switch their purchasing habits as much as go, oh maybe I shouldn't buy this then because the price is more expensive.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:53

Yeah, exactly. A lot of as you just said, that's what I was gonna say too, where it's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:59

This is why you're on our podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:02

Yeah. Nun staying. Tune in next week. But a lot of people don't get enough vegetables and fruits as is. I mean, I hear the same thing when it comes to like frozen vegetables, where people are like to be fair, frozen is just as, if not more nutritious than fresh. But even if it wasn't, people already don't get in enough vegetables. Why are we policing the way that people are eating their vegetables if they're getting in vegetables? That's our first step. And that's why I tell people have vegetables the way that you want to have vegetables, especially when you don't have any vegetables, because that's still better than not having any at all. And I think people get really overwhelmed with all the advice. And you know, if you want to buy organic, that's fine. Yeah, that that's totally fine. You can absolutely buy organic, but you don't need to buy organic to be healthy and to lead a healthy life.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:51

That I think is a really important takeover.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:54

Last question for you What is a hill you are willing to die on? Mint chocolate chip ice cream is not gonna that's an inside joke.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:04

Should I explain it or just leave it?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:06

No, you can explain it, just in case you want to leave it in.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:09

This is I I will explain it in case we leave it in, which uh when I listen back to this podcast episode, I'm gonna have no much no idea how much we're going to cut or leave it. Uh, we once went for ice cream, and we went to an ice cream. Do you say ice cream parlor? What's the word in America? Yeah, sure. Ice cream parlor. And uh the menu was vast. I mean dozens and dozens of flavours, and you were looking at it for quite a long time, and you said, I think we're gonna have mint chocolate chip. I don't like it. And I I was like, wait, what I don't understand. I thought you were joking. You said, I don't like it. But if I keep eating it, maybe I will like it. And I burst out loud laughing because I don't know anyone who approaches an extensive menu and decides to pick the thing they like the least. And I said, Why would you I still don't understand? Why would you pick the thing that you dislike? And you said, and I've laughed about this several times.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:06

It's been two years, it's been two and a half years.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:08

We've been lying in bed, and I have randomly brought it up several times. Do you remember the time Kylie said she wanted mint chocolate chip ice cream? And you said, and I can nearly quote this word for word, I just think life would be better if I liked mint chocolate ice cream. And I was like, I surely your life no difference. Every time you go to an ice cream shop, you would just order something else. No difference would ever happen. No one goes through life and being like, Life's great, I like mint chocolate chip ice cream. It's one of my favorite the favorite memories of you for random things you say. That's the explanation in case we keep it in. Anyway, what was the question?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:44

No, but truly, wouldn't life be better if you if okay, think of it this way. I think life would be so fun. Like the more foods you like and love, the more fun life is, right? The more you restrict, usually it's kind of sad.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:59

It's like oh Yeah, but that's such a like I don't feel like I need to train myself to love every different flavor of ice cream. It's okay if I don't like whatever and I've just picked something else.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:12

There are only so many flavors of ice cream you can try to love them all.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:16

But that's how I liked red vines, and now I like red vines. Oh no, I can't do that. Well, maybe you shouldn't have to be a fine. Maybe you'll change your mind. Red vines, hard-boiled eggs, oatmeal. Like most of the things I eat now are a result because of I'm just like, I don't really like this. And then I just kept eating it. Like different chips, too. Salt and vinegar chips. I only like salt and vinegar chips. I was like, I was kind of grossed out. So, ooh. Like too vinegary. Too vinegary. And then I was like.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:44

So wait, as this is two years ago, do you now like mint chocolate ice cream?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:50

No. Still working on it. Still working on it. I'm trying. I did think that's hard. It's a hard one.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:55

When we first saw you earlier, I just got this vibe that life wasn't going as well for you as it could.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:02

Chocolate is just too good. Now put two and two together.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:04

I understand what it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:06

Nothing can beat chocolate ice cream for me. Okay. Okay, what's your hill? What is the actual hill? What is the actual hill you're willing to die on? The hill that I'm willing to die on. I'm scared. Okay. The hill that I'm willing to die on is that treating food like medicine for every condition oversimplifies health. Whoa, I was not expecting that.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:29

I like it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:30

So you're saying food is not medicine. I'm saying that food can be very helpful for our health. I think food can support our health in ways that people might not completely understand until they meet with a dietitian or they study nutrition. I think food can be so impactful and such an important part of improving our health. But the second that someone uses food as the only way to treat every medical condition, including cancer, that is when I tap out. Even as a dietitian, as someone who benefits from the messaging food is medicine in the sense that it can replace medicine, I don't agree with the sentiment because I think that they should work hand in hand and that nutrition has its place in a care plan, but so does medication. Yeah. And I I feel like the messaging that food can solve all of your problems can be a dangerous one if it's extreme. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:35

Hard cosine. Wow. Really hard cosine.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:39

A strong note to finish off on.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:40

I say hard cosine because people literally get angry at me on social media and say you have Crohn's disease. If you ate this diet, you would be free of it. And I have even had it where people have said that to me, especially via private message or angry comment on YouTube, with two polar opposite diets. So if you if you were saying that if I cut out these foods and only eat these foods, I would cure Crohn's disease. But someone else is saying, actually, if I ate all the foods this person is telling me to avoid, and I focused on all the foods that they're telling me, or whatever, vice versa. And I'm like, this is uh frustrating that people think that you can cure every single ailment. Oh, I don't need I don't need sympathy. It was more that's but it's frustrating.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:26

I I get the same thing with IBS. Like that's why I was really hesitant to talk about IBS publicly, is because people will blame you for things that are out of your control if you're it's it's the MSG and the frozen foods and the seed oils and and the romaine.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:48

It might be a deficiency in mint chocolate chip.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:52

Should look into that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:54

Do you have anything to sign off before we finish? Oh good. Well, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on. A special pleasure having you as our first guest. Anyone who's made it to the end, thank you for your patience. And I'm sorry. In the for how chaotic this episode is. I think I'm just gonna leave everything in for the edits because that's like a great insight into your wonderful personality that some people might not see on social media. It has been an absolute pleasure having you on. And if you want to check Heiley out, she is very easy to find on social media, and her book is conveniently placed here. So easy, so good.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:30

Also, check out Fat Lost Habits. I Ben Carpenter.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:35

Okay, that's the end. Hi, Five. Thanks for having you on. Love you. Bye.

unknown 1:21:38

Bye.