Ep16. Calf-gate, the strength evolution & saunas

In this episode Sarah and Laura discuss their recent training, injury management, recovery techniques and the evolution of strength training - all with their trademark humour, honesty, and evidence-based insights.

Chapters:
00:00 Introduction and High Rocks Anticipation
03:11 Injuries and Training Realities
05:58 Podcasting Adventures and Media Engagements
08:59 Personal Reflections and Health Updates
12:09 The Importance of Recovery and Longevity
15:01 Evolution of Strength Training and Its Impact
17:53 Shifts in Training Mindset and Gender Dynamics
22:12 The Shift to Full Body Training
25:49 Personal Experience and Evidence-Based Training
27:32 The Importance of Listening to Your Body
30:39 Sauna Benefits and Recovery Protocols
35:30 The Science Behind Sauna Use
39:11 Reflections and Future Goals

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello and welcome back to Fit for War, a no-nonsense evidence-based take on health, fitness, and wellness with humour, honesty, and practical advice to help you be fit for whatever life throws at you. My name is Sarah, and if you're not bored of me saying it, I'm PT, women's health expert, and I was very nervous for Hyrux, but we will come back to that shortly.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Oh no, the Hyrux curse again. Yeah, so hello everyone. My name is Laura, also known as Biceps from the internet. I'm a personal trainer, best-selling author, presenter, owner of some sort of low-grade gastroc strain, as of uh diagnosed just this morning. Um, and with reference to uh the Hyrux banter at the start, so it's it's currently a Monday, we're recording on a Monday, and as of Wednesday, Sarah and I, as you may have seen from our social media, we've been bang on the training together, no jokes, we've done no training together. We've done some training separately, but we have been on the edge of um some sort of in you know various niggles and injuries, haven't we? So I thought we were both really looking forward to higher ox on Wednesday, and now I've had to let Sarah down. It turns out this is another learning for me. She's absolutely delighted. I'm absolutely delighted.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

I am absolutely delighted. I was with a client earlier and my phone flashed off. I was like, Laura doesn't always send me like multiple messages at once. I was like, gosh, she's got news to me. Let me just check this, I'll be two seconds. Checked it, and she sent me a picture of her with her tape-top calf, and she said, mate, we're not doing it. And I don't think my clients ever seen me smile so much in my life. She was like, What has she said to you? I was like, I'm not doing high rocks, I'm not doing high rocks. Um, yeah, I'm not gonna lie, I wasn't, do you know what? I wasn't dreading it, but the fact that I'm so relieved, I think I maybe was low-key dreading it.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

I feel terrible now because I don't I really hate forcing people to do things that they don't want to do. And I'm very aware that I force myself to do things I don't really want to do. So I feel bad that I've low-key dragged you down with me.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

No, but I don't think I don't think you I definitely didn't feel like I had to do it. It was more the fact that I was like, yeah, why would we not do this? Like it's a great opportunity for us to do it. I just I do know what I think when we didn't in December, I was like, great, I've got three months to really train for this, and I'll be honest with you, I have not trained for this.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Whose fault is that?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

My fault, totally my fault, and that's why I was never gonna pull out. But Laura made that decision for us, and I am so chuffed with that. I've got my Wednesday back, I'm gonna go see my friend, we're gonna go to the spa. It's gonna be a great day. It's gonna be a very different day.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

So just a four cot for context today. So, firstly, apologies. If you are an avid and loyal listener of the pod, you will know that this one's a little late this week, and we apologize for that. The reason there's multiple reasons actually. The first one is we've just been really busy this weekend. Uh, secondly, I'm uh unofficially depressed because Arsenal didn't win uh the cut. We lost um to City yesterday, yesterday being Sunday, um, so I couldn't possibly be in the mood to record. Uh, thirdly, very randomly, uh, and if you've again watched a little bit of our story, Sarah and I usually record this separately at our own homes. Now, today we are a mere centimetres away from each other, which is very different. Um, and we're actually in Hearst HQ, and if you know Hearst, that is the uh media portfolio company behind various brands, including Women's Health. So we're now we're just having a podcast day, aren't we? Having a very podi day. So I've just recorded an episode of the Women's Health Podcast just as well with editor-in-chief Claire Sanson and Gemma Atkinson off the telly. Off the telly, and she's wonderful, isn't she?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

She's beautiful as well, lovely, lovely person. I came with Laura as her guest, guest of honour, which I was very privileged. I got to sit in a chair and watch her very closely and provide content recording, but um lovely ladies, lovely, lovely ladies, so good, aren't they? Great vibes, yeah, just a very, very pleasant experience all around, really.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

100%. So that I don't know when that podcast will be out, I assume within a few weeks, but um yeah, it was really good to do that, and and obviously I've worked with women's health for uh quite a few times over the years, so I thought, you know what, I'll bring um I'll bring young Padawan with me so you can see how Nan does it. Um and actually this evening it's another podcast. Another podcast. Um we we've got to keep this podcast relatively tight because Gabby Allen, um who you may know off the internet, she was probably most famously known for being in Love Island, but before in Love Island, she was an instructor, PT, at Frame. And that's when I first met her. So she is recording a podcast live. So we're just having a real podcasty uh day today. So yeah, we're we're sat in front of each other, so who knows what will happen. She's given me a squares bar, which I'm thrilled about. And I've had a crunchy Optimum Nutrition fruit protein bottle. We've exchanged, we've exchanged snacks, things are going well. It's quite cold in this room, I can't lie. I she's accused me of stealing her charger. She stole my charger. I didn't. She said, Did you just pull that out? I just had that charge. I said, No, it wasn't in. But she's let me plug it back in for for full transparency. She's I want that one. She's plugged back in. Well, what have what even what day is it? Right, we're Monday. What has been going on last week?

SPEAKER_00 5:25

I just feel like last week flashback. When did we record last? Was it last Saturday? Yeah. Yes, it was last Saturday. Last Saturday, and then Sunday I had like a proper, I had a day bath. I had a day bath on Sunday and it had it and I read it.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Looking at me like, oh gosh, who does that? I have three. So you're bottom, do you have three a day? Not three in my water, but Thames water be nothing. No, uh max two, I'd say. Ideally, yeah, if I could have three, I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Oh, it's delightful. So last night it was delightful, and then last week was action-packed. I had three blood tests on the Monday. Three.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Three blood tests. Um, one with H-E-A-L-F health, and then I did one with um an NHS programme actually, which was an interesting um process. I don't actually get the results back, which I find a bit odd. But she did measure me, and I'm officially five foot two. For context, guys, we have this ongoing war of over who is taller. I'd like to explain here I am taller, Laura just has bigger hair. Um, but we battle between five foot two and five foot three consistently. I am five foot three. I'm officially five foot two. But yeah, blood test last week, busy week. I had a photo shoot for some professional headshots. Yeah, some headshots um done by my lovely friend Sash, which was uh quite an experience. I'm I do you know what? I woke up feeling puffy. I wasn't having a good face there. You know, when you wake up and your face doesn't feel like your face. Every day. Yeah, I face isn't really my face, isn't it? Yeah, to be fair, I my face is my face. Yeah. But it just didn't feel like my face. I felt very puffy. Right. I could have done with you know, like that TikTok viral cold water plunge, but I just I didn't have time. I went up to Hackney, which I didn't well I'm not cool enough for Hackney full stop. No, definitely not. No, really, I'm really not five foot two, not a five foot two with a backpack on. Um had a photo shoot, did quite a lot of studying, had a couple of interviews as well. Um tell us about those interviews. I can tell you about those interviews. I can't officially tell you where that interview will be for currently, but I had a successful interview, so I've got some updates I can share next week on the pod, but it needs to be um shared in a different sphere first before I can say it publicly. What, LinkedIn? No, not well. Maybe I might pop it on LinkedIn, maybe with a new head shot. You've got to do I'm delightful.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

I am delighted to announce that I've officially had enough.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

With my new headshots. Um nice headshots. Thanks. I'm really happy with them. They need a bit of touching up. It's made me realise I definitely want to get my teeth done. But um, I want some like little what are they called?

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Composite bonding.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Composite bonding.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

So it's so funny that you've said that. Are you getting them done? I've got an appointment on Wednesday. I told my parents, yeah, I'm not joking, I said to my parents yesterday, they said, What do you because it's my birthday this week, by the way. Happy birthday, yeah. 21st again. Yeah, 25 plus uh 17. What does that make me? Quick maths. 25 plus 17. 25 plus 16. 66. I was gonna say that age yourself, like no, yeah, 41. So mum and dad God bless them. They were like, What do you want for your birthday? And mum was like, let's go to Joe Malone, let's go to blah blah blah. Do you need a new bag? And I said, You know what? I think I just want to go to the dentist. And she was like, Right, let's do that then. Because as I've told you before, and I don't think I've mentioned this on the pod, my top teeth are not my own. Baffling. I have a gap like Madonna. I can't imagine with a gap. I'm gonna find a place. Please find a photo. I will. I look quite cute with it. As a kid, it it I it works for me as a kid. Yep, it's kind of like oh adorable. It's got a big, big old gap in her teeth. But as an adult, you want it closed. No. Wait, when did you get it done? So when I it was when I lived in the Cayman Islands, which was 2008, I I had officially had enough because it's all private health care out there, and I went to the dentist and he said, Do you want me to close this gap for you? And I was like, I'd never really considered it. I said, What do you mean? So what he actually did, he said, Oh, I just treat it like a filling. I mean, this was years ago, it's before I'd ever heard of composite bonding. I assume that's what it's called. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, this has gone very rave, this topic, but I will finish. We forget we're recording actually. Shit. Um basically it's like a filling either side, and I remember so well. I I when I'd finished, I mean, I was like, oh, this looks much better. I don't know why I've never thought about this before. And I said, How long will this last? And he said, I don't know. It could be forever, it could be a year. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. So that's 2008. So I've had it yeah, you've had nearly 20 years. Yeah, I've nearly had it 20 years. And I said, And I remember saying to when I'd had it done, this is back when I liked smoking. I said, when I'd had it done, because they'd all been whitened as well. I said, When can I smoke? He said, Of course, let's go now. And me and my dentist, straight after I had it done, we went outside and had a cigarette. And I thought, I love this dentist. He was a lovely Dutch man, so yeah, I had my teeth done in the Cayman Islands. Anyway, fast forward, and I'm gonna be honest again, I don't know if it's I'm just looking at myself far too often. Maybe you feel the same. Yeah. When you're doing stuff on social media and your photos and all this fucking stuff, there's things that crop up in your mind that you notice, and I'll say to someone, and sometimes maybe they're just being nice to me, but they're like, No, I've never noticed that. And I'm like, Well, it's all I can see. What's your concern? I just want everything to be even. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all it is.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Yeah, my bottom teeth, fine. Top teeth, I want them straight. Thing is, though, I would never say anything. Yeah. No, they bother me. But anyway, here we are, here we are. Here we are talking about composite.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

We're talking about empowering women, and we're like, oh no. I want my teeth once. I want my teeth done. No, but listen, that's that's that's the reality. Yeah. Um, so yes, that my but going back to what the actual flipping question was. Photo shoots. Photoshoots. You've got a new job coming up, but you can't tell us.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Can't tell you, sorry, guys, but next week I definitely can. Um what else would be I've got.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

You did a run?

SPEAKER_00 11:12

I did a 5k run yesterday with no pain. Right. Spoke too soon. Woke up this morning. I've got a groin ache. Right. Lovely. And a slightly sore quart. So, do you know what? High rules just wasn't meant for us. High rules wasn't meant for us.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

I'm actually genuinely, I was looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

That's nice. Do you know what? I think it's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

If we wouldn't listen, can you just be more honest for me going forward? Do you know what? Should I never ask you again?

SPEAKER_00 11:34

No, because I wasn't I wasn't actively dreading it. I wasn't, oh god, I don't want to do this. I just didn't feel prepared enough. But do you know what? That's on me. That's on me. So maybe when we do it, we when we try our third time, I'll be I will be ready and we'll be ready.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

We'll do pro by that point. I'm not so sure. Um Do you know what? I would I I I part of me today, so this morning I went to see the physio because I have a bit of a recurring situation in my calf. I there's a few reasons I think I've it hurts. I got a fist to the calf in jujitsu. I do jujitsu if I've never mentioned that. I've got a fist to the calf, that flipping hurt, and I think I've angered it and then I've run on it. Obviously, I'm doing a lot of run volume. I ran at a slightly different pace over the weekend. I think that has, you know, when you've got faster cadence, less time, ground contact time, uh, different gait, I think, when you run slower. Anyway, I've I've my fri I didn't choose to go to the physio. Emma, my friend, running coach, Emma Kirk Odinubi, the goat of running, forced me. She texted me yesterday and she said, mate, if you don't send me a screenshot of a booked physio appointment, within the next hour I'm booking it for you. I love her. What a mate.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

That's a mate.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

What a mate. That's a mate. And I said, Listen, I'll get it done. That's right. Yeah, you're right, I'll get it done. And I went today and sadly, low low grade. Well, it's good because I've not actually done anything, but basically, the guidance is it's it's hang, it could, it could, which is similar to you, to be fair. Yeah. So that you know, we could do it if we wanted, yeah, but at some point we have to consider the risk reward. Yes. Um, and for me, the the risk was was greater than the reward. Yeah, you know, the goal for me still is to run the MAS. So what I don't want to do is put myself out, and um, I've got a couple of mates that are managing some calf issues now that are trying to run the marathon, and honestly, yeah, I just think you know what? Me five, ten years ago, literally, I would have just gone, yeah, cheers, I hear you, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Yeah, um, even uh recording the podcast today with Claire Sanson, um editor-in-chief of Women's Health, she uh uh ran a marathon a couple of years ago and she had uh an injury and she was told the night before don't run it and she still run it. Yeah, and I just think sometimes we've just got to take the pressure off ourselves. Um I genuinely think a few years ago I would have been worried what people thought.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Uh of like, oh, is she just pulling out because she's scared or she's not ready, or I know that's not right.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

I don't care. I'm gonna be happy to post whatever time.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Because I know that I know me and you, I know we're doing our best. We're not elite athletes, we're not shit either. No, so whatever. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

I was yeah, I was relieved that you made that call for yourself. I was shocked, but I was relieved that you done that.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Well, I've got some sensible bones in me somewhere, I think. But yeah, I I think it's just it's it's one of those things, and I I I definitely think in terms of the industry and the conversations that I'm certainly having with people, the buzzword at the moment really is around longevity. And you know, I made a joke on my Instagram stories this morning, like I'm here for a long time, not a good time, and and and genuinely it is not worth it. And I think we are now as individuals training like athletes, yeah, but we but we don't have lives like one, no, and we don't recover certainly don't recover like one. I'm definitely trying to do more shit like that. Um, and I I actually a few years ago, I remember I did a podcast, and and the the host of the podcast asked me at the end, we were talking about my training and running and blah blah blah, and she said, What do you do for like me time? Like, what's your recovery? And I was so taken aback because I had nothing to say. I had nothing. I made something up.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

What did she say?

SPEAKER_01 15:19

I think I said like I go to the cinema with my friends, which is like a sentence you learn in French at school that you think, shit, I'm never gonna I'm never gonna use this again. I was like, oh yeah, like things like I like to spend time with my friends avec mon poppines dans le discotheque. I'm thinking, no, I don't. I just go gym, work, and sleep and go and have pastries. And then I was trying to explain to my dad yesterday that actually my social life looks very different now.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

And why I like jujitsu and why I forced myself to go for that flipping drink with the jujitsu club that I was like, oh god. I'm really glad I did. I'm really glad you did. Yeah. Because social, you know, socials look different for us. Like, yeah, you know, you're trying to, you know, pursue your freelance career in business, you're not trying to uh win world championships at Hyrux.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Not yet. Next year. Not our height. Not quite too. I always do that when I was doing some wool balls on uh Friday and I was like, God, this would just be so much easier if I was a bit taller. Like I have got quite a way to go to get that ball up there. It's a big push.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Do you know what? Lara said, uh Lara Gadson, she's a PT at third space, lovely Laura, she said, use your thumbs to push. And I never thought of it like that. Thumbs to push. Yeah, so when you you sit down into the squat and as you go to throw it in the air, push with your thumbs. It doesn't sound right saying or say, but next time you're in there, try.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

I will. Well, no, no T no shade, but we haven't got proper wall balls at my gym, Laura. So I'm having to use a smaller ball. What a basic bitch gym. I'm poor me. But um interesting, I hadn't ever thought of that. Well, that could be the difference for us from a PB and not, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Well, I think sadly for us, the focus now in the short term is our rehab, and we've got to do what our uh physios have said. We've been halted by nature. We have um and I think it's also interesting in the podcast earlier that I recorded um for the the Justice World podcast, we one of the questions was, how have I seen, because obviously I'm a bit elder, how have I seen the industry evolve over the last 10 years? And I think strength, you know, we talk about strength training like a real you know pillar, foundation of of health and longevity now. Whereas previously we hadn't, it was really sort of like bro science. Like I remember back in the day, I don't know if you remember, T Nation and Bodybuilding.com, two websites that you know, if you wanted to find out a programme like a squat protocol, you'd go on uh you know T-Nation and they tell you about the 531, you know, lift protocol or bodybuilding.com, that was where everyone got their macro calculator from, and it would tell you sort of what to eat and blah blah blah. That was the only flipping place you could go or buy a magazine, whereas now we're absolutely surrounded, and I think for me the biggest shift is and I've got lots of context and lots of thoughts around this, but in general, from aesthetics to performance to to health and longevity, it is the biggest, like get lean and toned in you know, 10 years ago was was it that's basically get shredded, shred yourself, fuck yourself up, get lean and toned. That's that's what I bought into at that time, and now I'm seeing things like stronger for longer, you know, living longer, performing better, the definition of performance is is different. And I think now strength training is really linked to, as we said, longevity, but also things like bone density. Have you ever woke up in the morning and gone, oh, I really wonder how dense my bones are? No one. But actually, it's a real consideration, and if we don't stress our our skeletal system by doing some sort of plymetric or impact or loading, it does have over time as we get older, you don't have that problem yet. Injury prevention, very on topic for us. But we're doing it, we're doing it. Sometimes these things just happen. But anyway, that that was the biggest thing. What what else do you think has been the biggest shift in how strength training has has looked over the years?

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Oh, that is a big question. I how does it look? I agree, I think it's it's more accepted now. I think before for women in general or okay, yeah. I think women in general, but I feel like for general pop, more people are doing it full stop. Um, I feel like even the male participation in it is different now. I feel like it used to be really extreme, it was like bodybuilding or nothing. Yeah. Whereas I feel like the general person now is just weight training because they know the benefits and it and it it's far more kind of evidence as well. Um but yeah, I just I I think it's it's just more widespread, but I also think women, more women are doing it, but of a again, of a less of an aesthetics driven reason. So I feel like women again are doing it because they know this kind of benefits of bone density, longevity. We talk about all these kind of buzzwords as well. But again, I think it used to be like if you did strength train, it was for an aesthetic reason and you were bodybuilding and you're competing. Yeah, whereas now I I think that's becoming a smaller, smaller percentage of people doing that. I feel like bodybuilding, competitive bodybuilding isn't something that I've ever really been that exposed to. There's a couple of my friends that have done it, but a couple of friends who lived over in the States, it wasn't ever really a thing for me growing up. Um, but I feel like that's getting smaller and smaller and smaller as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Um 100%.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Yeah, I I I remember, and I don't mean to this sound like a flex, like oh, I'm in in good shape or whatever, but I remember I was in a beefa at Ocean Beach, and this is when I like was training, so I would say, no offence to me, but I did look pretty dense at the time. And I was at Ocean Beach, and that crowd at that time, say five, six years ago, I I I stuck out like a I I look very different to every everyone else. And I remember this one lad came up to me and he was like, Are you you do you compete? And I was like, compete at what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was like, Bodybuilding. I was like, You think I'm a bodybuilder? Fuck, like tragic. Like I like some of the people I know that are bodybuilders, like, yeah, and I just thought, God, is that was what they assumed. Yeah, yeah. The assumption was a girl that has muscle, she must be a competitive bodybuilder. And I was like, nah, bro, I just do CrossFit like very averagely, yeah. Um, and I and I do a bit of training here and there, but I I de I definitely think, yeah, that you know, and you mentioned sort of evidence based. I I also think when I sort of talk about bro science, this, you know, back in the day, if you look at a strength split protocol, it was like Chebs and back, you know, Chebs and back, arms and arms and legs. Oh, well, you know, I'm I'm joking, but it was like it was it was like muscle. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember coming into being a PT, and I remember when you know I was learning from my mentor who's come from professional sport and professional rugby, and he's he split up the sessions by compound, and it was broadly a full-body session, and I thought that's such a different way of looking at things. Yeah, it's so much. And actually, now I'm such an advocate of everything. Full body before I'm the same.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

We don't have time. Yeah, that's the thing, like, and I think that science is coming more and more. But even when I try when I trained as a PT, and this was seven years ago, it was like hey, push pull split. How are you going to program this for your clients? Is it push-pull-split? And I I don't think I've programmed anything that isn't full body in the last five years. Like I only program full body, just because I think it just works. I mean, I do work exclusively with women, but I just think it works better.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

And also, just um, for those that are listening, a full body doesn't mean one exercise works the whole body at once. I'm imagining some sort of physical Mexican wave. What we mean by full body is that you know, we would program in a a set, let's say like a tri-set, three exercises, yeah, you would broadly hit all of you know all the muscle groups, posterior, anterior, muscles, musculature on the front and back. Yeah. And also I think it's time efficient. That was one of the biggest things for me. You know, even push-pull, I sort of get it because you know, you get the sort of the the upper to uppers to lowers while you're you know your uppers resting, lowers working, and you know, that you we know that we get you know what is called the sort of the blood flow, the shunt of of moving, the the activity from upper to lower, and we know that that gets has some benefit, you know, for cardiovascular health and and all of that good stuff. But yeah, I I think that's one of the biggest things is like you know, also and also this sort of uh I remember when I was starting, it's all trained to failure, you know, you've got to really be dying on that last rep. And actually, there's been um uh a large peer review study that's come out from the American College of Sports Medicine that basically suggests just lift a little bit of weight two or three times a week, the full body and Bob's your uncle, Fanny's your aunt, and it it's sort of in terms of percentage, they say just around 80%. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

And it's also that it's more satisfying. I used to find when I was training in like a in like a body split way, it I didn't feel totally satisfied by that. Like I'd be I I've just done like triceps and glutes, like I don't really feel like I've done that much, whereas I love feeling like I've actually achieved something in a in a session, I've worked my whole foot full body. Yeah, but I think also a large percentage of the population is sedentary, like it's so important to get every joint and every muscle in the body moving as frequently as you can.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

100%.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Um, so that I think there's so many benefits to training full body, and it is time efficient. People are time poor, or people perceive themselves to be time poor. That's that that eliminates that excuse in training as well.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

100%, and I think this sort of functional fitness, as we call it, um, I definitely was I'm old enough to remember when those questions started to get asked, and you know, for journalists and articles, it's like, what what what exercises are functional? And it's like, well, all of them, yeah, apart from actually I remember at the time, I think I I would describe it as like something that's like basically not a bicep curve. Damn. Yeah, awful. I'm not functional at all. But you know, you could, I don't know, you could argue for to say it is somehow functional, but you know, it's it's these sort of full-body compound movements. I think that that's one of the biggest shifts. As you've said, more women um are into it, you know, there's more evidence-based, and also one of the things that I was talking about earlier is evidence-based is not just what the textbooks say. The evidence, you know, the definition of evidence-based or the collection of evidence can be personal experience as well. So, this is why I think you know, you and I are very aligned to this in our values. I'm I'm very it's unlikely I'm gonna say something is wrong. Because I go, well, why is it wrong? What are you trying to? I can tell you how optimal it is to achieve what you're trying to achieve with it and might suggest other ways of getting there or more efficient. But I don't think we should we're not as black and white anymore. Um, you know, we talked about training to failure. I think again, I remember back in the day, and I used to, I'm definitely uh fall into this. I used to do my squat programmes on percentages. And as a woman, if you look at your program and you have to hit certain percentages and you have to apply progressive overload to lift more or could do a more complex lift, what if you feel like your ovary is gonna fly out your asshole?

SPEAKER_00 26:31

I'm not doing it, mate. Yeah, exactly. There's just yeah, it just yeah, we're we I think we are super aligned on that. Like, if you're not up to it that day, that's absolutely fine as well. Like, your ever your body is your source of evidence. And I know we bang on about it so much in terms of the more data you've got about yourself, the better. But it's so true, and and your your history of training is evidence and information about yourself, so that should be a key driver of how you're gonna perform an exercise. Like, some women might turn around to me today and say, like, I actually I really fancy training upper body, lower body, or my period's super heavy, I don't want to go near my glutes today. Can we just do upper body? Cool, great. That's that's what's that's what works for you today. That's absolutely fine. Yeah, as long as for the bulk of the sessions that we're that we're doing, you're lifting with intent, with but an element of progressive overload, and you're following a clear structure. If we need to have a couple of sessions off, because your period's really heavy or you don't feel great, that's absolutely fine.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

That again is something we were talking about earlier in the pod. I remember it's like there are lots of people, and and Gemma described it as there are people that describe they fall off the wagon. Yeah. And I've I've I think I've said it historically, and I definitely hear some of my girlfriend saying it. It's like if you were never on the wagon to begin with, you can't fall off it. Like the wagon is life, I guess. Like there's gonna be times where you can't, you know, like you were just saying about HIROCs, right? What you're saying is, and it's quite nice that you're open about it, is what you're actually saying is I hoped I would have prepared better for this moment. Yeah, and I didn't, and and there's five million reasons that are apps perfectly. I mean, it could be no reason as well. I mean, who cares? Exactly. It's not the Olympics, my our lives don't depend on it. And I think what is important for us is to be, yeah, to be honest and uh and authentic, especially you know, if you've got a bit of injury, because that is just not smart, yeah. Um, because if I do, yeah, what was worrying me was the sled on high rocks. Yeah, I was just imagining how would I feel thinking if I push off, if my car's low, yeah, and I was thinking, shit, you know, could you take more of a sled than I've thought now I feel bad because then it'll be unbalanced, and I don't want you to feel like you've got to carry more of the work because you've also got your flipping shin splints. So anyway, it's it's probably uh it's probably a gift. And what I do need to do, talking of diving into sort of other recovery um protocols, I think I'm actually well I haven't done. Do you know why I haven't been to the gym today?

SPEAKER_00 28:51

You haven't! I haven't either. Have I been? No, I haven't.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

I always haven't eaten apart from that square and two coffee.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

I said, Do you want a square spot? Yes, yes I do.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

I've had a ban I I saw a banana, I was like Can I have this banana to my friend at Women's Health. Is this banana going spare? Yeah. Yeah, I've just had a lot of coffee. I've had a lot on today. Um I will I will eat uh very soon, but I will I think I'm gonna I'm up uh not sure I'm gonna go to Jiu Jitsu. I'm just worried that I will in this time period where I've I've ruffled some feathers in my calf, I don't want to upset it. But I will go to the sauna. Oh, the sauna. Now you've had a bit of a um an an up and down situationship with the sauna. It's a love affair, isn't it? You love the sauna, the sauna doesn't like you.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

I love the sauna, the sauna exactly. So I don't I've never been a big sauna person. I remember me and my boyfriend to Copenhagen last year, and there was a sauna there, and George was like, Great, go in the sauna, and I thought, I don't like the saunas, why would I go in the sauna? So if you went, so I to be honest with you, sauna's only really came into my life when I met you. You brought saunas into the into my life with me. What was she doing? Um saunas came into my life when you came into my life. Right. So what what a combo. But yeah, I mean, I think it triggered, it came into it came. I think Laura met me at a time in my life where I was particularly burnt out. And um, for me, my skin is particularly sensitive, and I think the sauna used to aggravate my little sensitive skin a little bit too much. So it used to flare out my peri-oral dermatitis, which is always a mouthful. So yeah, I but you know what? I've actually I've pulled it back, I'm building it back into my routine now. So you didn't progressively overload. I did not, I did not progressively overload a sauna. I think when I left um Third Space, I then was like, where am I going to sauna myself? Then found a sauna at my new lovely gym, and I went straight in 20 minutes. 20 minutes, and I was like, my skin's flared up, what is going on? Um shock shock. Um, but no, I am back in love with a sauna and I do try and go in, I'd say between two and three times a week.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

You go in quite frequently, don't you? Yeah, I ideally I'm like three times a week. I I think it's it's basically I'm very fortunate in that in um third space where I go, it's women's only, so you can go in in your in a towel. Well, yeah, obviously it needs you need to have a towel, but you there's no pressure to wear like a full outfit, so it's easy, it's quicker. But the full outfit, I so at my jiu-jitsu club that I have I told you I do jujitsu, at Armour there is cold plunge and a sauna that is mixed, but it's like it's lovely and it's just nice to go. Yeah, I just think for me, the where I see the benefit is post-workout. Yes. Um in in terms of yeah, just sort of obviously in a workout you are creating a stimulus to the muscles and they're inflamed and they need you know to uh repair and yeah, you sort of get that uh continual heat exposure, improve circulation, um, which has said to help and repo uh what? A poof to help and appooth uh you're recovering. Um yeah, obviously you have to also very much if you are a sauna uh um goer as as we are, we also have to remember all of the the fluid and salt loss.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yes, absolutely, because I think there's a bit of a uh there's I think there's a bit of a assumption here, or maybe there's been a mismanagement of expectations, maybe it's misinformation that people kind of see it's like a detox, which it isn't. Oh no. You're just sweating, you're just losing fluid, you're not losing fat. Um, so I I think that's maybe why I had a bit of a love-hate relationship with it initially, because I think there was a little bit of a how do I describe this? Kind of a bit of a I think because I've had a maybe challenging relationship with kind of my body previously, I think I just steered clear of anything that I thought could be particularly or potentially triggering. So for me, I think I had associated saunering with kind of this extreme fluid loss or extreme fat loss, but now I'm in a far better headspace. Um, for me, I love them. I do definitely feel a benefit from them. Um, obviously, just going through like how they actually work. So I kind of go in them and I was like, how do these actually work? So obviously, we know that it's warming our bodies. The heat exposure raises our temperature to about 40 degrees, did you know? 40. 40 degrees approximately. Um, and it can then cause the heart rate to rise to about 100 to 150 beats per minute, or more if you're mean you're a little too anxious bean. Um, so it's quite similar to kind of like light to moderate exercise, um, but as Laura said rightly, like it basically causes the blood vessels to dilate and then you get you improved circulation, and that's where we see all the benefits in terms of cardiovascular health, relax and stress reduction, um, that kind of muscle recovery and soreness, which I definitely have seen a benefit from um because that increased blood flow. Um, and there has been some links to increased longevity, which is um this is correlation, not guaranteed uh cause. Um, but I think it can it has been shown that actually it can improve longevity, which is our buzzword of the of the season.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

It is, and I think, yeah, lots of people have been talking about it because like if you wear a heart rate monitor um when you're in the sauna, it's it's a bit like uh you know, when you say when you're lifting weight, say you're in doing sort of uppers, lowers, and more of a circuit, you do have there is a cardiovascular demand, let's say, for you know, for for the sake of making this point, you you will raise your heart rate while lifting weights in a sort of a circuit format, which does have cardiovascular benefit. No, it's not actual intensity, uh you know, and it doesn't replace focused cardiovascular work that would be more optimal on like an erg or running or a uh a single mode uh domain of doing cardiovascular, but the same in is basically happening in the sauna. Your heart rate is elevated for a period of time, and your body is under stress that your heart needs to work harder to meet the demands of the environment, this time driven by heat exposure. And obviously, you know, we we don't like the word detox necessarily because we know it comes with lots of different connotations, but you know, yes, you you are you know losing fluid, and you know that there will be an element of some sort of detoxification. Obviously, we're losing some of like the electrolytes and the salts in the body that we need, so we need to replace that. But I think there's also call it a placebo effect, but I think there is an it feels nice as well. I I also think you it's a it can be a relaxing environment once you get used to that heat exposure. Definitely, and one of the things I very much learned is don't take your phone in there because it zaps your battery, um, but you can't take your phone, you're not like you're just you on your own.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Yeah, and I've I've to be fair, I've been taking my book in recently, which has been semi-successful. The glue in the spine of my book, I don't know if I should be recommending this, um, has melted at times, but I quite enjoy having a little read in the in the sauna because now I haven't got my mates to chat about Joe Malone candles with. Who what am I gonna do? So I've started reading in the sauna, which I have actually really enjoyed, but sometimes it I do just really like going in there and just switching off because you can't have you're not meant to have your phone in there, you're not meant to have kind of headphones or anything. But I just that do you know what you saying that just remind me of one of the funniest things you've ever said in the sauna? So we're in the sauna once that third space, and it was me, it was quite a busy one, it was me, Laura, Ether, Claire, and Emma, and Laura starts rubbing her arms. She says, You know, this works better if you rub the sweat off yourself because then you clear your skin, you can start again. And I remember I just remember being so proud of yourself, and it was just and we were just like, Yes, that is right, love. But we know we've had some of our best chats in the sauna, I feel like I feel like we do a lot of we do you do a lot of deep talking in the sauna, some less deep talking, lots of little um candle discussions.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

I think just changing rooms in general, women in changing rooms iconic club toilets just gets deep immediately, doesn't it? Make your best mates in the um toilets of a club or the sauna these days.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Like, why do you why do you use the sauna?

SPEAKER_01 37:10

What's your thing? Um so mine is for uh mainly for the recover the actual science of the recovery behind it. Um and I think yeah, having that sort of heat exposure to help support the information is is really why I'm there. Yes, there's some cardiovascular benefits that you know all all of the things that we know, but I actually think living in London and having two days of summer per year, I just I really like having a s the sort of the it's like the maybe it's a placebo effect, but it's like the structure of I go in the sauna, it feels good, I sweat it out, shower, and off I go. Yeah, so I I I think I just I just like it.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Yeah, but I think you made an interesting point. I don't know we've talked about it publicly before, but you made a really fair point about you feel like it improves your resilience. I think you that's true.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

I do say that's another very good point I've previously made. Thank you for bringing that up. I do think it improves yeah, because it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Yeah, yeah, it's not easy, is it? Like I think, and that's why I've started taking the book in there because I'm not distracted by shit chat anymore. I've got to have some kind of focus, and my reading has helped me with that. But yeah, I mean, sitting in there for 15 minutes with nothing but your own thoughts can actually be quite challenging. So I and I think that's it.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

And so a cold plunge, I'm not doing very well with. Obviously, we know the science behind that that is less um focused for you know, it's less uh that the science is less beneficial for women. We don't need our ovaries to be cold. Um, same polar to men don't like their testicles too warm. So, you know, there are certain gender differences in terms of the benefits and the temperatures that are optimal for us. But yeah, I I I like the sauna, I like it. If it did nothing, it feels good, but it's great that actually there is some really great evidence to support recovery, inflammation, cardiovascular health, and yeah, we're also trying to stick around this gaffe for as long as possible, aren't we? Agreed this planet. Agreed, agreed. Yeah, and what I mean, all also, um, as we've previously said, we're we're in we're sort of in this little room, right? And it's quite funny because we've never been in this room before. My mate at uh Women's Health just gave us a meeting room, so it's be very transparent. We think everyone's gone home. The the office is, I believe, completely empty. It's just the two of us. It's just the two of us in this room talking to each other. Oh, the the producers just walked past, actually. Ruth's still here. Ruth's still here. I still haven't forgiven myself. They on the podcast, they'll edit it out, so you'll never know. But they said, Oh, you did a uh a training programme for us on women's health. Can you tell us a bit about that? And I forgot the name. So it was Beldenberg, it was Gilden Burn.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

I remember it was Burner, I didn't want to shout. I was like, Do you want can I shout in here? And I thought, no, let's enough still with this.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Oh, yeah. Well, anyway, we're in this funny room, it's a great room, really. But um, we're actually now about to we're gonna clo we're gonna close up the pod now because we're gonna go and watch Gabby Allen's podcast live. So this week it is a shorter one. So we hope that if you're listening to us in hopefully not the sauna, or maybe on you're on the toilet, maybe you're on the toilet.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Or maybe you're prepping for high rocks, maybe you're on the wall. Maybe it's cursed, it'll be third time lucky.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

The world just doesn't want to see me do a run or you do a wall bowl.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

No, I don't think anyone needs to see me do a wall bowl, but maybe we'll do.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

We will, I believe we will one day, but we it will have to be when we're in decent health, the stars align. Um, but it has been a wild week. Obviously, yeah, we're here on Monday. I'm hoping that by the next pod I will have managed to do my long run. I've got 34k uh on the plan, which I know today, given everything I've said, sounds like an impossible feat, but my physio said it may be alright. Um I just what we don't want to do is go on a really heavy sled and and sprint round um Kensington Olympia if we don't need to in two days' time. So um I'm I'm gonna finish with um my peak, my peak of the week has got to be uh yeah, getting the opportunity to uh be interviewed by my you know a mate um on her podcast. I've worked with women's health for for many years, and it was it was a really nice sort of full circle moment to be able to sit there and talk to her, um, talked about egg freezing again, which I think yeah, I actually found it's emotional for about 10 seconds and then I pulled it together. Um I think I saw Claire's slightly well up. Oh yeah, I I can't remember what it was I said, but I looked over and I was like, her eyes look a bit glassy. Um, but anyway, um, so that was very, very good. What has been your peak?

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Do you know what? I've had a really lovely time today. Like I feel like last week was great. I had I feel like I'm like, as I said last week, I feel like I'm on a bit of a like momentum journey now. Like I'm I'm doing stuff that I wanted to do and things are getting done. But no, today has been really lovely. I think as a as someone who's always been interested in kind of fitness and wellness, women's health's always been somewhere that I've looked at. Um and to be here behind the scenes is a real privilege. So thank you for bringing me with you.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

No, don't say silly, I feel silly. I just thought it might be a fun day, a fun day out, given we're sort of in our pod infancy. Yeah, we've basically hopefully looked at the future setup. Absolutely. We've got a team at some point. Anyway, here we are, episode 16. Um, so I guess we'll we'll finish with pits. Yeah. Um lowlights of the week. It's got to be it's got to be McCalve. I mean, I'm actually I'm actually annoyed not to be doing High Rocks. I would like to do High Rocks on Wednesday. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yeah. Well, my my pit is I've literally written my groin hurts, sad face. So yeah, it's injuries. We're injury riddled, but I'm gonna go and see my OSTO tomorrow, and you're gonna be a good girl and keep your tape on and do what your physio says. So fingers crossed that won't be our pits next week. But thank you so much for listening, guys. We hope that you enjoyed it. And do you know what? I've actually quite enjoyed doing it in person. Well, really? Yeah, oh alright. Well, we've kind of just thrown it together. Yeah, I'm intrigued to see how this comes out, but resilience we are, so it's because we've been in the sauna, that's why.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Many reasons we're odd. But yes, we um uh we will hopefully return to a slightly longer uh episode um next week. But um we wish you all a wonderful uh week. This will be uh probably out tonight, Monday night if we can. God knows how we're gonna do it, because we're literally off to go and watch another podcast, and then I've got to be up at the crack of sparrow fart in the morning to travel to um I'm going to Midlands again. Oh, lovely. I know, gorgeous. But it will when I next speak to you all, I shall be a whole year older. She will be.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

She will be. On that note, we will leave you there. Speak soon. Goodbye.