Episode 11 - Midnight Madness: The Reality of Sleep with Kids

There’s nothing quite like finally getting into bed after a long day… only to hear, “Mom?” from down the hall.

In this honest episode of Midnight Madness, we’re talking about the invisible night shift of motherhood—the wake-ups, the mental load that doesn’t clock out, and the exhaustion that goes far beyond just feeling tired.

This conversation is for the mom lying awake after everyone else is asleep—spiraling, worrying, and wondering why this feels so hard.

Because the truth is: nothing is wrong with you. You’re just carrying a lot.

And for moms who feel like sleep struggles have become their normal, we’re sharing more about Pure Little Sleep—sleep coaching to support families through newborn sleep, early wakings, toddler bedtime battles and beyond. 

Because motherhood doesn’t stop when the lights go out. 

If your nights feel heavy, you are not alone.

Listen now, subscribe, and share with a mom who needs this reminder tonight.

You can connect with Pure Little Sleep at hello@purelittlesleep.com or follow @pure.little.sleep.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome to Messy Minded Mama, a podcast for moms who look managed but might feel a bit messy on the inside. I'm Kate.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

And I'm Jen. And we are here creating space for real talk about motherhood, mental health, and the invisible load so many women carry. Welcome back to Messy Minded Mama. We have spent time in the past talking about our morning madness and what that looks like. And today we're gonna spend time talking about midnight madness. What happens at night? What happens at night? So there is nothing quite like that moment that you finally get into bed and immediately start to hear the mom, mommy, mama.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I think about whatever TV episode, but there's all those messages of like mom, mom, mommy, mom.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

You're right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

It's more rapid than just like oh mom.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

It's definitely like on repeat hollering for us. We've just laid down, the house just got quiet for the first time, probably all day. And we finally feel like we have a little bit of time for ourselves. And immediately there are water requests, there are bad dreams already starting before they've even fallen asleep. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

And the I need you, which is so cute and so irrationally irritating all at once. Totally. Like, how is this already happening? Right. And I think for some of us, not just me, I'm hoping there's more people out there that resonate with this. It's not just one wake up or the trying to get them to sleep. But for us, it's multiple wake-ups. We play musical beds in our house. So we all may start in our own beds, but my husband will end up in Sawyer's bed and I'll end up in Brind and they'll both end up in mine, or who knows where we might end up. So we play musical beds, but we're never really fully settled. And that's been my life for years. My oldest was a great sleeper until she wasn't. And we've just never recovered.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

And I think it's really a testimony, the nighttime struggles of the hardest parts of our day. We talked about the morning and now we're talking about the night, are happening when it's supposed to be like quiet. Peaceful. Mellow. Yeah. Yeah. Peaceful. And it's really, it's just not.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Yeah. And it's happening when we no longer have any energy to give, right? It's like we've already given so much all day long. And especially like we talk about morning madness. That after school time, too, I think can be so exhausting of the lead up to bedtime and the wind down. And it's like mentally we are so ready for that break, but we're not getting that break. And I talk about sleep in my house. We've got into this phase of most nights are peaceful, but it's taken me years to get there too. So I have so many years of what you're talking about of that musical beds, of being able to trying to actually relax and not being able to because there's so many other things going on at night.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yeah, it's the mental load that we carry during the day, and we've talked a lot about that. But it continues into the night shift, if you will. Yeah. Um, of not just everything we're thinking about, but how it actually impacts us like physiologically, mentally, emotionally, because we're tired and emotions get heightened. And so it feels like you actually can't like clock out.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah. Yeah. There's something about laying in bed at night when in that little bit of time that maybe you do get the quiet. I think for me in particular, when everything feels quiet and I'm able to slow down, that's when my anxiety ramps up, right? That's when my my heart starts beating a little quicker if I'm really trying to process something that I am actually worried about or fears that I might have, whether it's the health of my kids at that point in time, I'm putting them to bed sick and I'm now thinking about what else is going on. And I have like this health anxiety that pops up for me. Um, so my anxiety gets super loud in those moments where everything feels quiet. So even if you do have somewhat of a peaceful, quiet moment at night, it doesn't mean that our brain is shutting off and that we're actually calm in those moments, at least not for me personally.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Yeah, I feel like my body is like rearing up for war almost. Like I'm that's a really weird way to categorize it, but so relatable. But so yeah, I feel like I'm on edge because I'm anticipating the wake up. I'm we kind of joke like, how long do you think we have till someone comes in or till someone calls out? And my older girl has night terror, so I I vividly remember one time where she woke up screaming, get away from me, I want my mom. And I ran in there ready to fight somebody in this like confused days, and that happened multiple times, and I got to the point where I would just kind of walk because I I knew at that point. Sure. I'm always anticipating, I'm always on edge, and I'm never fully able to rest and turn it off. Yeah, which just makes me tired even more, emotionally exhausted. Yeah. And part of me is like, I really want sleep, and the other part of me is kind of afraid to hit that point because I don't feel like it's gonna be restful.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah. Yeah. And how exhausting before you even go to sleep to already think about I'm gonna be tired tomorrow. Yeah because it's not gonna be a peaceful night, it's not gonna be a restful night. I can't shut my brain off. Whatever's going on, I think that's what we've talked before about how things um kind of build. And for me, it's like those building blocks of things that start to get to the point of exhaustion or rage we've talked about in the past. And I when I think about the days where sleep was not restful, not very often in my house, and multiple night wakings, those are the times that I remember my mornings being the hardest and me having the shorter fuse, right? And the rage coming out so much quicker. And in the moments that weren't even justified, but it was because I was exhausted because I had multiple nights in a row where I hadn't slept and it started to build, and then it came out in my mornings. So mornings became so much harder for me when my nights were a struggle.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Yeah, I the rage is a big one. I'm already like kind of a quick trigger kind of lady. Um, but when I'm exhausted, it's not just rage. I feel like every emotion for me is heightened, and we always talk about and joke, like my eyes water all the time, laughing, crying, whatever. Um, but when I'm tired, it can be the tiniest thing, and my eyes will just go. My I am crying and it's ridiculous. Yeah. But I know that that's my cue of I am so tired because I'm emotional about everything. Yeah. And then I feel silly and then I beat myself up. Yeah. But then I try to go to bed and we're just in this vicious cycle. And again, it's been, it's been years since my my kids were tiny tiny. Um and I I want people to hear some of the thoughts that you've had because it's this idea that when we're sleeping, we're still responsible. Yes. But you've had some thoughts over time that have actually taken that to like a whole separate level in terms of responsibility. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

So I had this realization actually just the other day of how absurd this thought actually is. Because we talk about it's not just a phase, it is the years of building. And so for years in my house, for seven plus years of becoming a mom, I just realized recently I have this absurd thought that I am less deserving of sleep in my house than anyone else. And mainly my partner, right? Tyler does not put this thought on me. He does not put this pressure on me to be the one that is constantly the go-to in the middle of the night. I put that on myself. And it is, it's this absurd thought of he deserves more sleep than I do because he needs to get up and go to the office in the morning, or he needs to get up and go on his run in the morning, or he said earlier he was tired and oh my gosh, I need to not let him be tired. Right. Again, he is not telling it, he's not telling anyone this. He's absolutely not. He's just said, I need more sleep than you. No, he's never in our marriage, in our time together, ever said that I am less deserving of sleep than he is.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

But I do have this thought and on repeat over the last seven years of I I can't wake him up to handle this in the middle of the night, or I can't have the kids go to him in the middle of the night instead of me. I need to be the one that is always on.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

And where does that come from? Why, again, it is an absurd thought. Why do I feel like I am less deserving of sleep? Why do I feel like my well-being is not as important as anyone else's? It's not fair.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

No, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

And I I don't know how to change that personally, but I think realizing it and being able to say that and voice it out loud and realize that it is absurd helps.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Yeah, that's the first step, right? Just noticing. Yes. And I I hear a lot of shoulds in that, which means there's an expectation there. And you've already said Tyler's not the one putting that expectation on you. Right. So where is it coming from? But I've also experienced that. And I think a lot of us as moms take on this primary caregiver, especially in the tiny baby stage. Yeah. Whether you're nursing or you're feeding or whatever, if you are home with baby and your partner is still getting up and going to work, I think it feels like we shouldn't be asking for help because they are having to get up and we're just at home with the baby, which is ridiculous. Because just being at home with the baby is not sitting around eating bonbons, watching TV all day. No, it's a lot of stress, and you're tired and you're sleep deprived. And I feel like it's a harder job in the world. Yeah, and it feels like a blurb. But I think we take that responsibility on because we feel like we should. Yes. And it's our own weird expectation we have of ourselves, and then it's hard to let go. Yep. As years go, it just becomes ingrained in us. Yeah. And I don't know how to release it either.

unknown 11:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

But I think that's where a lot of it comes from is those tiny baby stages. Yep. And then it just continues to grow. I know for us, Taylor is like dead to the world when he sleeps. Yeah. Like some huge explosion could happen and he would sleep right through it. Yeah. And I'm a really light sleeper. And so typically it is me that's getting up. And if I do wake him up, I feel guilty that I'm waking him up, which is silly. Yeah. Because I'm like, oh, I'm already awake. Yeah. I heard it. Maybe I should, you know, or do I pull up the covers and pretend I'm sleeping? Right? Like, I don't know. And so I I feel, I feel exactly what you're saying. I feel guilty waking up and asking for help. And I think Taylor has picked up on that over years too, especially with the musical beds. He'll be like, oh, do you want to go start out in one of these other beds? So that maybe you can get a block of sleep. And he'll just end up sleeping with one of the girls. Yeah. To try to help minimize it, which I appreciate so much because I do, I am not well when I don't sleep. No one is. Yep. But Sawyer will always find me. It doesn't matter what bed you're in. What bed I'm in. Doesn't matter if I'm in the king size or the twin bed. Sawyer will find me and want to snuggle. Snuggle bug. She is. She's a cuddler. But I I think what you're talking about is the expectations we put on ourselves as caregiver. And we're pouring into everybody else at that point and not ourselves. Oh my gosh, stop it.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

I just don't know how. I don't know either. But I do think you talk about the early days. And you know, there's so much truth in like the hormones that are going on and everything that we are being given in those early days that allows us to be very sleep-deprived and keep going as moms. But I think about the moms that didn't birth their own child, right? Like we we get that if we actually go through the process of carrying our baby. And I believe there is scientific truth to this. But at some point that goes away. And that does not last into seven years afterwards, right? And be nice maybe if it would, but that stops at some point in time. And there's again some people that do not have that from the beginning, depending on their journey and their story of becoming a mom. So I think that we should knock that piece down and just say, if we need help, how do we ask for help? How do we ask for help in the middle of the night? How do we not feel guilty for having to lean into these other pieces and get the support that we need? And I again, I think about all the things that are offered today that are out there today that I wish I would have not only known about, but just taken advantage of and actually thought, like, this is okay to accept the help. Whether it's as someone coming in at the night to be able to help with, you know, in the middle of the night feedings or whatever your family needs. I think being able to really create that community around you for support in whatever way that looks like is so important and does help if we can talk about it out loud, if we can start to release some of that guilt, the shame, whatever's going on for women out there that are going through this and dealing with the nighttime struggles.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yeah, absolutely. And I love what you said about it's not just the hormones in the early days, it's the love that you feel for the tiny people and for your partner. And that's the part that I think pressures it's our own, but gives us that pressure to be the one that's responding all the time. Um, which is hard. And single mamas who don't have a partner to wake up, yeah, I feel for you because I I have Taylor to wake up, but if I didn't, that exhaustion would be tenfold. Yeah, totally. So I think too uh like the spiral we go in at nighttime, right? We talked about the wake ups and the exhaustion, all that. But the actual mental spirals, yeah, I always say the inner critics are loud, right? Our inner critic is loud. And they're rudest and loudest at two in the morning because everything else is quiet. And so that goes into sleep too. It's not just the kids waking up, it's not just the anticipation of I'm gonna have to get up or I have a busy day and how am I gonna do this, but it is still navigating the mental load and the emotional mix that we carry all the time, and so that's where, at least for me, the spiral gets the loudest and where I'm maybe not so nice to myself, which is a really hard thing. But I think that goes into lack of sleep too.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Definitely, and yeah, although my kids' sleep has gotten to a phase of a little bit more peaceful and a little bit more predictable, it doesn't mean mine has. Yeah. And you're right, it's like waking up in the middle of the night with my own thoughts and my own challenges that I'm working through, whether it's related to the kids or not, at this point, to be honest, it's there's these own these thoughts that I carry that are keeping me up in the middle of the night that aren't fair to myself. And yeah, we can definitely be our own worst critic and trying to quiet that voice, trying to calm that voice, yeah. Trying to get that restful sleep when on the nights that our kids are offering us that opportunity would be lovely.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yeah. I and I think I've told you this before, is I I actually have to take medication for sleep. Um, and I was on it before I had kids, and then I had to go off of it because it I couldn't take it when I was pregnant, couldn't take it when I was nursing, and then I didn't want to take it because I was worried about the wake-ups and I didn't want to feel super groggy. And recently I got to a point where I was like, I I have to sleep. I am not showing up the way that I want to. I'm awake too many hours and then I'm grumpy and I'm rageful and I'm emotional and I can't focus. And so uh this is me just trying to normalize that if you need help, whether it is talking to someone, it is your support, if it's a sleep coach, which we're gonna get to, or it's medication, like it's okay uh to to need that because we as humans have to be able to sleep because we can't just say, I can't do this, we can't just not show up. We have to find a way to keep pushing through, but we have to be nice to ourselves in order to do that.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah. Yeah, and getting the support, like you said, in whatever way that you need. I think for me, sometimes it's just I'm gonna go sleep in the basement, right? And you said Sawyer finds you wherever you are. Uh my kids haven't come down to the basement yet. So knock on wood, that doesn't change, but maybe I'll try that, right? I think it's naming it out loud with your partner or just for yourself of I've hit the point where I need that break. And I think trying to say that during the daytime can be hard enough, but saying that at night where I'm physically gonna remove myself from this normal situation from where I normally sleep because I need that restful night. We talked about earlier, like the crying, whatever, right? Your emotions, however, they're coming out and you're crying. For me, the big sign, which I haven't had in a while, but it's I get very slap happy. Like everything is so funny. Yeah, I'm uncontrollably laughing to the point that I am crying, and that's the clear-cut sign or has been in the past of like this woman needs sleep. Yes, yeah. And those are the nights of okay, my husband recognizes it. I recognize it in myself in those moments of like this is a basement night, this is a night where I need sleep. So, whatever that support does look like, whether it's the medication, whether it's just tucking yourself away, um, getting some help or some permission from someone else to be able to say, This is what I need for myself, is huge.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah, absolutely. I will say Taylor's been gone this week. Um, and instead of battling my way through multiple wake-ups, I just let them sleep with me because I needed sleep. I was desperate. It was easier for me. And I used to really beat myself up about that of oh, I really should keep encouraging them to be in their own beds. And I really should, should, should, should, right? All those expectations, and they're ones I'm putting on myself because no one else is living that with me. No one else on the outside is getting up with my kids in the middle of the night.

unknown 19:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

And so sometimes I have to do what I have to do to get some sound sleep, and they need sleep.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Because just like we are emotional and rageful and snappy or slap happy, whatever, when we're tired, they are too, but they don't have the self-awareness yet to say, oh, I am feeling big feelings because I'm tired. And so they need sleep too, just as much as we do. So, and I will tell you, I have tried all the things. Yeah, I have tried, I have tried the sit by their bed, sit in the chair by the door, slowly exit out, lay with them, don't lay with them, read them a story, no screens, screens. I've tried literally all the things that I can think of, and I think part of it is genetics, right? I don't sleep, my parents don't sleep. It's genetics. I think there's some of that. And I think too, they're just little and connections important, and so we are just doing the best we can.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yeah, I love what you're talking about because I do think it starts to break down this stigma of what you're doing is creating bad habits. Right. It's not creating bad habits, it's what you are doing that is working for your family in whatever way that it needs to, and it can look different tonight than it does tomorrow night, right? It does not, it's not creating bad habits by doing these things that you need to in those moments. It is being in tune with what you need for yourself and your own well-being, what your children need in those moments. The connection is huge, and it's sometimes leaning into that connection for a period of time then does help start to break it and shift it when they're ready for it too. So yeah, I think we have in the back of our minds all the time that, oh, what I'm doing is wrong. Yeah. And it's not wrong. It's what you need and it's working for your family in the moments that it needs to.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Yeah, there's I think a lot of pressure, oh, you said for the habits, right? Don't let them sleep in the bed, have them be in a bassinet, not in the same room, in the same room. There's so much advice across the spectrum, and none of it's wrong, I don't think. You know, safety, yes, is important, but what that looks like for different people is is different because it's different households and different routines. And um, you know, I think they're with sleep, especially tiny tiny babies, right? There, there's a big focus on what that looks like. Yeah, but you still have to do what's right for you. You and what's right for your family without fear of getting judged by other people. Because I will tell you with Bryn, I was very much like she can't be in the bed, she has to be in the bassinet that's X amount away from the bed, all of this stuff. And with Sawyer, I was like, right, I need sleep.

unknown 22:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

There, yes, there is some like just given permission that comes with the second all of a sudden, it doesn't have to look the same, it can look different. And at that point, yeah, it's you I think you recognize sleep is more the most important thing for everyone in the family to kind of keep functioning. And it's just this built-in permission of it doesn't have to um be as stringent as it was maybe with the first. So blessing in disguise sometimes with the second one coming along. But yeah, definitely the message at the end of the day is do what works for your family and try to block out kind of yeah, that outside noise, the inner critic, if that is what is the loudest for you, and do what works. And if that's not working, then small changes at the end of the day can be the saving grace. It doesn't have to be these big changes, it doesn't have to be as consistent as everybody maybe says it does. I think consistency can be key. Yeah, but uh try one small change and then just try to be consistent with that. It doesn't have to um be this big game changer at the end of the day for it to work.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Yeah, absolutely. I also think people saying it's just a phase for me is really unhelpful because, like we've just talked about, it's been years, yeah, it no longer feels like a phase. It just is my normal and you know, sleep shapes how you show up totally in general. We just talked about all of that, and so like maybe ignoring that part of it's just a phase, yes, maybe it is, but it's your reality, and to not minimize the fact that this is your reality right now and to lean into to what you need, yeah. And Jen has created something because everything we just talked about, it was important to her, and so I want to give you some space to talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Yeah, thank you. So, pure little sleep is a new sleep coaching business that I have just launched, and to what you just said, Kate. It it came from really thinking about my own journey as being a mom and what some of the hardest parts were, and it really was the sleep training, the the sleep training, am I doing it right? Yeah. Thoughts of does it need to be the cry it out? Does it need what do I need to be doing to actually allow this to work for our family? And remember being kind of the toughest times, I think, in having children and trying to get through that. It's also something that I see quite often show up in the therapy space of what are new moms struggling with, what are moms of toddlers struggling with? And sleep just became this um conversation on repeat. Yeah. It wasn't just me thinking about my journey in my past. It's something that I see show up with everyone that I'm working with. And to be able to create a space that every the plan can look so many different ways for families, but really have um an offering that does support moms through any phase, parents, moms and dads, whatever your family looks like, um, be able just to feel more support, feel like you have a more consistent plan in front of you, a guide in front of you that you can take what works, you can leave behind what isn't, but you can really just start to focus on what does support look like for my family when it comes to sleep. And again, going back to the sleep isn't just for the baby or for the toddler in your house, sleep is for the whole family. It really does change the whole dynamic, the whole setting, the well-being of everybody when you start to break down how complicated sleep can be, how challenging sleep can be in your house. So created the sleep consulting business to be able to help coach families, to be able to kind of guide them along in a way that that feels gentle, feels supportive, um, and just giving tools that at the end of the day really can help um shift how we think about sleep and how it shows up in our house and how it impacts our well-being at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Yeah, I love that you created it based on not just your own experiences, but you hear it in your therapy sessions. I hear it in in the women and men too that I work with that are parents about how impactful sleep is. And, you know, we've talked a lot about how it shows up for us. I remember, I'm pretty sure I even told you, like, there was one point I felt manic. And I talked to my own therapist about it because I was like, I am worried about myself, not just my mental health, because I'm up a lot and I'm not showing up the way I want, but my physical health and what lack of sleep impacts, and then the impact to my kids and why aren't they sleeping and all of these spiral pieces? And so to have someone that has done training in it that can say, I hear you, I see you, I want to understand your situation and give you a plan that might work for you. Yeah, I think is really beneficial.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yeah. And again, there's so many different layers to this, right? Whether it is the newborn phase and just trying to figure out what do I, what do I do if your first-time mom in particular, I remember that being like, I have no idea what I'm doing, what is safe, what isn't. There's there's some just like gentle education that can go along with that. But then there can also be, I thought I had this figured out, and you hit the four-month sleep regression, right? That is a real thing, and there are real reasons why that's happening for your baby, and actually like very positive reasons. It is your baby starting to develop into uh not an adult, but adult-like sleep, where they are starting to get into these patterns of uh lighter sleeping patterns. We skipped all of that in my household.

unknown 27:57

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

And then if you're dealing with the tother and you're dealing with like whether it's early morning wakings or just the tother bedtime battles, there's so many different pieces to this. So creating options that don't just show up for one quote unquote phase of the journey, but all but supporting all of it.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

I love that. Well, I think like a big message for this is that we just want people to know that if if your nights feel chaotic, if you're wondering what am I doing with sleep, why are we not sleeping? I feel not like myself because of the sleep situation. You're not alone. It's something that every mom experiences at some point in their years as a parent. And you know, I remember my dad saying, I used to be like, it's seven, can I go to bed when I was a kid? I was like, Oh, why do my kids not do that? Um, because I still like to go to bed early and my kids like to stay up late. But you're not alone, and if you're hard on yourself, I talked a lot about my inner critic being loud. I get that too. And this is just sleep is hard in general.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yeah. Yeah. The biggest message from me is you're not doing anything wrong. Yeah. This is it is challenging, and it is challenging in these kind of maybe micro phases, but this long period of raising children that you'll run into multiple challenges, and it does not mean that you're doing anything wrong. I think the best thing to be doing for yourself is to recognize what you need through all of this. And again, it going back to you're not creating bad habits by doing what you need in those moments. So really listening to yourself and recognizing it's not a personal failure when sleep isn't working in your house. Um, it's something, maybe small changes that need to shift to be able to help you and support you.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we'll leave you with one of our lines as we typically do. So to end this, I said I was gonna say session again. To end this session or episode, um, motherhood doesn't stop when the lights go out. Right? It's we're still carrying the mental load, we're still carrying the emotional responsibility, and so we carry so much even in the middle of the night. So that's what I leave you with. It's kind of a really long one, but I love it, and it's so true.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

All right, we'll see you next week. See you next time. Thank you for being here with us today. If something in this episode resonated, we're really glad you listened. Messy minded or not, you're not alone in this, and you don't have to have it all figured out.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

If you'd like to stay connected, you can follow Messy Minded Mama wherever you listen to podcasts. And follow us on Instagram at messy.minded.mama. We'll be back to connect again soon. Thanks for being here.