Done Shrinking

Welcome to NDA (No D*cks Allowed) — the podcast for women who are done shrinking and ready to rise.

This first episode sets the foundation for everything that follows. We’re not starting with surface-level empowerment or recycled advice. We’re starting with the behavior itself — the subtle, normalized ways women learn to shrink, accommodate, and override themselves in order to be accepted, liked, or “easy to work with.”

We unpack what “shrinking” actually looks like in real life:

•  Downplaying your opinions in a room where you’re the most qualified 
•  Softening your language so you’re not perceived as “too much” 
•  Taking responsibility for other people’s emotions 
•  Staying quiet when something doesn’t sit right 
•  Over-preparing, over-explaining, over-functioning 

These aren’t personality quirks. They’re learned behavioral patterns — and they’re costing more than most women realize.

We also introduce ourselves as your co-hosts and give you a clear sense of how we approach this work. Our perspective is grounded in behavioral awareness and real-world application — not theory for the sake of theory. This is not therapy, and it’s not performative empowerment. It’s about understanding what you do, why you do it, and how to actually shift it.

You’ll hear a bit about our own experiences with shrinking, what pulled us into this work, and why we built this space the way we did — direct, honest, and grounded in reality.

This episode also introduces a core concept you’ll hear throughout the podcast: the difference between awareness and change. Most women already know where they’re shrinking. That’s not the issue. The issue is having the tools, support, and willingness to do something different in the moment it matters.

If you’ve ever walked away from a conversation thinking, “Why didn’t I just say what I meant?” — this is for you.

If you’ve outgrown the version of yourself that keeps playing small — this is for you.

If you’re ready to stop managing perception and start operating in alignment — you’re in the right place.

Welcome to the rise.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, Amanda. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:02

I'm great. I'm very excited to be starting this first episode of our podcast. I was thinking as I was preparing for today that shrinking behavior is everywhere. And we sometimes impose it on ourselves, sometimes it's imposed on us by others. And I came up with an example that happens to me all the time, actually. So as you know, I am on a trivia team with my husband and uh two other friends of ours who are both men. Shout out to I am Smarticus, that's our team name.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Um that name, I love it, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

You know, I honestly don't even remember. It was just like we need a team name. Let's come up with something kind of clever, and that's where we landed. And it's great because if we win, everybody in the room like yells I am Smarticus, which is it just makes it that much better.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Oh I got so even the other teams will yell at?

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

So anyway, um, but there's a situation that happens fairly regularly when we're at trivia, and that is if there's a question that's asked and I think I know the answer, but I'm not a hundred percent confident, I'm the kind of person who is not going to speak up and throw my answer out for fear of looking stupid if it's completely off base and completely wrong. Right. I've noticed over time that my other teammates don't do that as often.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

And, you know, if they have an answer, they'll just share it. And it's like, you know, group discussion. Yes, we think that's right. No, we don't, and we move on. There's never any ridicule or oh my gosh, you're you're such an idiot. Like that doesn't happen. But I impose that on myself that I'm afraid that that's going to be the reaction, even though I have no grounds for thinking that would be the case. They've never said anything to me or done anything that would indicate that that would be the the response. But for whatever reason, I just stay quiet. And then if we get the question wrong and the answer that I had was right, I get mad because you didn't share it. Because I didn't share it. So it's that's that's a super simple example of how we tend to shrink ourselves and minimize ourselves intentionally, unintentionally. Sometimes it just happens, and this is an example of something that I don't necessarily do super consciously or or realize the impact consciously. All right, but over time I've thought about it more and it's like, you know, I should really stop doing that. I should just share the answer that I think might be right. And hey, worst case scenario, we miss the question, not a big deal. There are my other teammates have been responsible for us missing questions plenty of times. Sure. Um so why do I do that to myself?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

So would you say that was in that example? Would you say that's a complete? I don't know if you saw the Seinfeld episode with George and the pool with the shrinkage for that. I do like a lone shrinkage moment in a cold pool, or was it more degree of shrinkage?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

This was, I would say, like um, maybe a we'll call it a micro shrink. Just a little bit, not like super drastic. We're not, you know, majorly impacting anything in my life or others' lives, but but it is something that as I started reflecting, I was like, you know, that that is shrinking behavior, and I should stop doing that. So I'm gonna be more aware of that moving forward.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

So let's say for those of you who are wondering what a micro shrink is, I'm gonna come up with a definition. What if a micro shrink is like not a complete getting smaller, but just for a minute, the situation makes you just a little bit temporarily less you. Yeah, I like it. Okay, I think that's a good definition. I'm a fan. All right, I love the shrinkage example. Thank you. You're welcome. Most NDAs keep people quiet. Ours does the opposite.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Around here, NDA means no dicks allowed. Not men, the behaviors that keep women small. This is the podcast for women who are done shrinking and ready to rise. I'm Amanda Kachurka. And I'm Elizabeth Cipola. Welcome to NDA. Welcome to episode one of NDA. Here we are.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Here we are, and I'm clapping. We have been so excited to do this. You have no idea. So excited. I can't even contain it.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Truly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

So we should probably tell our listeners what what exactly we're doing here.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Yeah. Hopefully you're here because you like the name of our podcast, which is no dicks allowed, NDA. And we pause.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

If you have a dick and you're listening, we welcome you. Stay in sit with us for a second because let us explain what it means.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

We are not about excluding men. That's not why we're here. We are not man haters. This is about behavior. This is a podcast about the behaviors that women face, whether that's coming from their own internal pressure or people in their lives, in work, in their personal lives, the behaviors that are imposed on us that we impose on ourselves that keep us small. That's what this is about.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Absolutely. So I don't know if anyone can relate to this, but you know, Amanda and I, when we were trying to envision what this could look like, we were thinking whether you're 20, whether you're 80, whether you're in your 30s or 40s or 50s or 60s, we see you because it's for any woman out there who is exhausted, exhausted from performing, and you know what I mean, and you know what Amanda means when we say that, from second-guessing yourself, overaccommodating, constantly trying to take care of others, and basically being in survival mode.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

And I think even more simply, calling it behaviors that are not true to your authentic self. So anything that you're doing that doesn't feel like you, and we we know we have that little voice that tells us, you know, this doesn't quite feel right, or this isn't me. I feel like I'm not being me right now. That's a sign that there's shrinking behavior in the equation. And so that's what we're gonna talk about. We are super excited to have you here with us on this journey. Welcome to the rise. Yes, welcome to the rise. We don't want to shrink, we want to rise. Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit more about what we mean when we say shrinking behavior. We kind of gave a little bit of an overview of generally speaking what we're talking about, but well, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Amanda, yeah. Let me just say, I don't know. I feel like how we said welcome to the rise. That's not really demonstrating the punch that we want with what a rise looks and feels like. So shouldn't it be like welcome to the rise? Could it be something like that? I'm picturing something very Jessica Day for New Girl.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Okay, yeah, I can picture it in my head. There's hand motions.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yes, oh my gosh, I was just doing my hands. I was doing Jessica's hands on either side of the head and lifting them up. So yes, I like it. Welcome to the rise. All right, yes, let's do it, ladies and gentlemen.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

And gentlemen, yes. So shrinking. What does that look like in practice? Let's dive a little deeper. Minimizing yourself in any way, minimizing your accomplishments. Early on in my in my career, my professional life, I was given a piece of advice by a friend and mentor, and I was introducing myself at a networking event or a conference or something. And I said something about being just an intern. And she pulled me aside afterward and she said, You're never just anything. She was like, I want you to remove that word from your vocabulary within the context of introducing yourself or talking about your accomplishments because you are never just anything. So from that moment, I anytime I hear myself like slipping into just language, nope, that's a shrink.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yeah. So can I give you an example?

SPEAKER_01 8:54

I would love you to give me an example.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

My biggest shrink that I observe and I notice is things we don't say. So nonverbal. And for example, avoiding eye contact and looking down or over when you're talking with someone, literally slouching down and physically making yourself smaller instead of sitting up straight or standing up tall. And another one that a lot of women do, but actually their voice going up a few octaves from what they normally speak. Almost like if you're a really bold speaker like this, maybe you're just dialing back your tone because you don't want to come across too imposing or you don't want to come across too dominant in how you present yourself. So those are examples that I think are pretty interesting. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

And I think kind of along the same lines of how we speak and when we speak, I think that's a shrinking behavior that can come from outside ourselves. When, you know, I'm thinking of um one of the Sex in the City movies where Miranda has a supervisor who every time she starts to talk, like holds his hand up in her face. And that's something that I've seen happen in real life. That's a thing that some people do. And it's a way to get you to stop talking and over time, if it happens repeatedly, especially, really knock you down a few pegs and think, well, okay, maybe my perspective isn't valued. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. So I'm just gonna stop sharing and stop participating in the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

I have had managers or bosses who, because I'm a very animated person, I'm someone who's very passionate, I'm someone who loves to dream up and think of new ideas. And so I have had this happen so many times where I'm in a meeting and I'm speaking in an animated way, just like how I'm saying this. And I've had people male bosses in these examples, but I've had them say, relax or calm down, or hey, let's do this. It's a much more conservative way of doing it. And I have allowed myself for sure at times to kind of sit back and let them take the ball and run with it, even though I know it's not going to lead to anything good. And then lo and behold, it doesn't. Uh, but that's an example too.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

It is for sure. And I think there's there's so many examples that we can give of when that happens around someone perceiving you as becoming emotional. And we all have different scales of emotional reactivity, as far as you know, we get louder or or we become more animated or whatever the case may be. That that scale looks different for everybody. So to have someone jump in and shut it down when it's like, no, this is just how I communicate when I'm getting excited about something and when I'm passionate about something, and cutting that off is like it's really minimizing. It's a hard environment to feel comfortable communicating in for sure. And deferring expertise is another one too. I'm definitely guilty of that one. But my background originally was in marketing and digital marketing specifically, and it I was getting into it just around the time, you know, early 2000s, like you're just starting to see email marketing and social media and things like that. And I was definitely in a lot of rooms where just because I was young, you know, I was right out of college, um, and sharing my expertise on this topic, it was automatically discounted. And, you know, it's like, well, what could you possibly know? You're 22 years old. Well, yeah, but I also have a lot of education and and practical knowledge of this topic. And over time it does, it really starts to get to you to a point where you let the other people on your team start speaking instead of you. And yeah, that's something that I've absolutely done. Not so much now, I've gotten better at it over the years, but when I was earlier on in my career for sure.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yes. I um when you said that, it was actually making me think about how I've done that, even because the bulk of my career, I've been pretty much the only female, uh, either the only female or the youngest member amongst a leadership team. So this is kind of a twist because I'm trying to think of how I've done it. Would you consider shrinking to be if someone has overcompensated for the gender bias, I guess, that that might exist over explaining? I'd say that's one. But also too, I am someone who is very assertive by nature. And we already said I have a lot of conviction and I'm passionate. But there have been times where I have allowed myself in those situations, whether it's because I was the youngest on the team or because I was the only female where I have been less confrontational, and that is completely contradictory of who I am.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

We have a shrinking problem, and that's why we're here. We want to look at this in the context of leadership, work, personal life. It happens everywhere and causes us to form patterns of behavior that don't serve us. And that's what we're here to unpack.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yes. And we are so excited to do this because these are the sorts of things where you walk away feeling like, wait, did that just happen? Or this doesn't feel right, or something feels a little off, or why did I just say that? Or why did I not speak up? But we don't really feel comfortable talking about it. We don't know who to talk to about it, or we've learned to just pass it off and say, oh well, and then go on with the rest of our day. And like you said, it all contributes to the shrinking problem. There is so much shrinkage, we're just swimming in a ice cold pool and we are so shrunken. So we're ready to warm that water up and enlarge each of us.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

That's the goal, anyway. That's the goal. So uh we should also probably share a little bit about us, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Let's do that.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

So uh Elizabeth and I have worked together for the past what five years. Yes. Um, we are very similar in some ways and very different in some ways. I don't know if you want to speak to that.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

I will. So I would say we're very similar in that we both are very driven. We both are confident in our own areas of expertise and passion and knowledge. We both have experienced shrinkage. Do you remember? But we didn't call it that, right? Uh, do you remember when you first started working for me? Because I'll just tell everybody that is the way in which our relationship began. She was hired by our former employer to work directly reporting to me. But I remember you made a comment to me that you were having a hard time getting used to working with me because you were kind of scared that the hammer was going to drop. You're kind of scared that you felt like someone actually got you and that I wasn't trying to water you down. And I was actually wanting you to question things and wanting you to assert yourself and not do all the things that historically you've heard from other managers. Um, and so I remember you shared with me, wow, I can actually see myself working with you for a long time. And I said, Oh, that's really funny because it's tough for me to find someone that really gets me, um, someone to whom I report. And that's something you and I had in common, I would say. We didn't know we were talking about shrinkage, but we were.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

We were. My experience uh professionally is not easy to concisely describe. It's not like, oh, I'm a nurse, I'm a graphic designer, I have a specific skill set, and there are positions that are obviously a good fit for my skill set. Right. My skill set's pretty varied. And I've always worked places where I felt like my supervisor never cared enough to really get to know me as a whole human. And I actually had a supervisor say to me once, I get the feeling we're not using your entire skill set, but I'm not sure what to do about that. And that that was like the the clearest summary that I've ever experienced of like honestly, yeah, same. Yeah, yeah. I don't know what to do with me either, but to hear it come from somebody else was like, oh God, I wow, okay, well, then I must not be, you know, a very good fit for the team or fit for this work, or it just it made me feel really, really small in that moment. And I I did, I internalized that and carry that with me for a long time. So yeah, to come to you and then find somebody who was actually interested in getting to know me as a human and understanding what makes me tick and the best ways to leverage my strengths and push me just enough in the areas where I wasn't as strong to at least fully experience something and find out if it is in fact something I don't like, like managing people, for example. That had never happened before. So that was a completely new experience. And that is an experience that I think is so important, and I wish more people had the opportunity to have it. Yeah, I would agree.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

It is, and I so I'd say one thing we have in common, and I'll do a I'll finish. Here's my ADHD, right? Like going down 50 different lanes here.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

We'll eventually get back where we need to. It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

We always do, don't we? I'm dropping breadcrumbs along the way. I got yeah, we got this, but just being seen, neither of us really have ever felt seen before. And I don't mean by our lovely husbands or anything like that, um, but specifically in the workplace. How about I give you a little peek behind the curtain in terms of who I am as a human and as a woman? So why don't we just say I am Elizabeth and I'm originally from the Buffalo region from the youngest of seven? Our family kind of came together like the Brady Bunch. However, unfortunately, it did not have the same happy little ending as you weren't like singing and dancing and putting it in little sixth grade.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

No, okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

No, and it wasn't like uh the partridge family either. But uh, for those of you who even are old enough to know what the heck that is, but anywho, so no family band either. No, no band, no, none of that happened. Um, my next closest sibling is about nine years older than me. And uh I like to say, even though I'm the youngest, I kind of grew up half of my childhood because of the big age gap as an only, which was really interesting. And um, our house was pretty tumultuous. It was a lot of personalities, it was a lot of just you know, kids coming together and a blended family situation and you know, having experienced a broken home. So that was tough. Um, always pushing the envelope, always pushing boundaries, always speaking up, always advocating for others to the point where I even actually ended up being sent to an all-girls Catholic high school because I was advocating and standing up to authority figures in my junior high, and nobody knew what to do with me. Um, met my husband in high school. Best thing that ever happened to me, other than our children. And now, fast forward, we're celebrating our 25-year anniversary this July, and we have three kiddos. So that's a little bit about us.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Thank you for sharing that, and a little bit about me. I grew up in a very small town in northwest Pennsylvania and moved for college like 45 minutes away to uh from my very small town perspective, what was the big city? Um, and that's where I met my husband. Uh from a behavioral perspective, I am an eldest daughter. The things that you see, the the memes and the hosts that are going around on Instagram. It's that's accurate. That's me to a T. Um, you know, I've got this, I'll take it. Definitely like to be in control of things. And you're I'm the fixer. Wow, I didn't know that about you. I'm a fixer. I like to fix things, which oftentimes gets me in a situation where I've overcommitted far beyond what I ever should. I do it all the time. We do not have any pets, we do not have any children, so I think that's a nice sort of difference in our perspectives, Elizabeth. You know, from a child-free perspective versus someone who has children, um, you know, just the the different experiences we have, and there's there's shrinking involved in that too. Let me tell you. The reason we started this podcast is because these behaviors impact us. Uh, it could be in, you know, missed opportunities, stalled growth, damaged relationships, exhaustion, burnout, all of the things. It shows up differently for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

When we think about shrinkage, what are we doing? We are trying to hide or mask the authentic parts of ourselves and living an existence that is not true to who we are. And one can only do that so long. Why we're doing this is because there are so many of us, we know we're not alone. We know we're not. And we see you. We want to give everybody a place to come to share stories, learn from each other, and like we said in the beginning, rise together.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Absolutely. And this, you know, to your point, the the constant flexing of behaviors that are outside of what's authentic and true to ourselves, that puts stress on your body, whether you realize it or not. You know, you've got all these other things that you have to keep track of and do and remember. And then on top of that, you're also trying to put yourself into this shape where you're so contorted and bent out of what's normal for you. And when you add that compounded on top of everything else that you're dealing with, it's fuel to the fire. And so that's why we're here. We want to try to help you identify those shrinking behaviors, like we said, intentionally, unintentionally, for the purpose of helping you break free from that and begin to rise again to your true authentic self.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

I think it's important for everyone to know uh one of the most gorgeous parts of what we have put into place here is the fact that we're not trying to show up like we have all of our shit together. No, because we helped. We want to create this space, this beautiful, amazing space where we can all come together mask-free and just be ourselves and not have to pretend we have it all figured out and be here with each other to walk away through sharing practical things that have helped us, hearing about practical things that have helped you.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

It is a hundred percent. And I think that's actually a really lovely segue to our regular segment that we're going to have on every episode, and it is called shrink this.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

All right.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

So we're we're gonna we're gonna shrink this. So this is an opportunity that we will share every episode where we catch ourselves shrinking. And by ourselves, I mean Elizabeth and I, because we are not perfect, we do not claim to have all the answers for this, but we want to use the opportunities that we have and the the behavior recognition that we have for the benefit of others. So, Elizabeth, I think you have an example that you'd like to share. I do have an example.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

This particular situation, I will say, involved another woman. It's someone that I was working really closely with and somebody who extended themselves to me and offer to do something kind. And it was a lovely kind gesture. I accepted this lovely kind gesture from this person. It was, it wasn't anything massive or major. They offered just to uh do a quick little favor for me because my car was being repaired. Okay. And then fast forward, so I allowed that, I accepted it. And fast forward, I found out that that individual shared that and put an untrue spin on it to make me look bad or messy and said, Oh yeah, I had to do this for her. You know, she didn't have her stuff together. Um, and that really, really hit hard because I thought that this individual, another professional woman, I thought she and I really um were on the same wavelength. And when I say that, I mean I extended myself to be available to be a supportive resource for that individual as well. And uh that just really hurt. And instead of saying something and speaking up, I didn't. I never did. So that's a really good example, I think.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

It is for sure. So given and hopefully you're never in that situation again. But if you are, what would you do differently?

SPEAKER_00 26:50

What I would do, yeah. No, there is something because I think each time we don't advocate for ourselves, it just reinforces that mindset that it's okay to shrink. And I, if I could go back, I would have reached out to that person and I would have said, Hey, do you have a few minutes to chat? Um, maybe go grab a cup of coffee, something. And then during that conversation, I would have shared, hey, you know, here's something that was shared with me relative to you, you know, offering to give me a lift while my car was being repaired. And and that really hurt because I I truly saw our relationship to be different than that. And I'm not sure why you did that, but it I just wanted to share with you that that really hurt and that wasn't okay. That's not okay, and that's not how I allow myself to be treated by people who I allow into my my inner circle. So that's what I would do differently.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yeah, I think that's there's a great lesson there. I think it's too often we, because especially as women, we are automatically lumped into this like overly emotional bucket, which is inaccurate. Um, you know, you have the emotions that you have, and that's fine. You're you're entitled to your emotions just as much as a man is. Um, but as soon as there's any sense of emotion, you know, you get like lumped into this group of, oh, you know, women, they're just overly emotional. And I think we need to really emphasize normalizing, expressing our emotions with each other and modeling that behavior of exactly what you just said, calling out, hey, this is what you did, and this is how it made me feel, and starting to normalize having those conversations openly and honestly. Yeah, it's so important.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

And there's there's something you said, it's owning how you feel because she didn't make me feel that way, right? I chose to feel that way, and obviously it's still bothering me, right? Like right, I wonder if I should be should I reach out to her now? This happened within the past year, I don't know. And in our correspondence just kind of fell off because I I didn't put myself out there. I don't know. Am I sure on that?

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Yeah, give it some thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah, I don't think I want to.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

There you go. Knowledge, it's knowledge for the next time.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

So as we are coming to the end of episode one, we want to give you the opportunity that if you have moments where you've caught yourself shrinking, we want to hear about them. So send us a message on Instagram. We are NDA underscore pod on Instagram. Send us a little DM and explain the situation, the the moment, the shrink that you had when you realized that it was a shrink and any sort of shift or attempted shift or even what you would do differently next time if you find yourself in the same situation. Uh, so that's NDA underscore pod. We would love to hear from you. And this will be a segment on every show. So feel free to send those along because we want to hear them so we can share with everyone else and we can all learn together.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yes, we are so excited to hear from you. And this is where it's gonna really bring all of us in community together to share and to learn and to process together. So we cannot wait to hear from you.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

In our next episode, we are gonna start diving into more specifically the shrinking behaviors that we mentioned earlier. The next one, we're gonna be talking about uh something that Elizabeth just mentioned, which is self-doubt and negative self-talk, things we do to ourselves all the time. So to be sure that you don't miss any future episodes, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. You can also follow us on Instagram at Nda underscore pod. As we said, we are here to create awareness. So as we go through these episodes, if you recognize these behaviors in yourself, it's not failure. You are not failing, you are creating awareness, you are becoming aware so that you can rise. Awareness so you can create choice. Welcome to the rise.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Yes, okay, wait, one more time. Love it.