All Roles. No You.

Most women don’t notice when it starts.

You step into a role at work, at home, in relationships.
You get good at it. You’re relied upon. You’re rewarded for it. You feel...useful.

Over time, it stops being something you do and starts becoming who you are.

This episode isn’t just about your job.
This is about the roles we are constantly expected to carry—mom, partner, caregiver, leader, the one who holds it all together.

In this episode, we unpack how those roles slowly become identity and what it costs when they do.

Because when your sense of self is built around roles:
 • You lose clarity on what you actually want and who you really are
 • You struggle to step outside of what’s expected of you
 • You feel pressure to perform, even when it’s no longer aligned
 • And any shift—at work or in life—can feel like losing yourself entirely

We talk about how this shows up across both professional and personal life, why it’s so normalized for women, and how it limits us.

And then we get into the work of separating the two.
Not by abandoning your roles but by recognizing they were never meant to define you.

You can show up fully in your life without disappearing inside the roles you play.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Today I want to talk about something that happens quietly to a lot of women.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

What would that be?

SPEAKER_00 0:06

It is is it like something like that? Maybe. Um, I mean, who knows where this episode's gonna end up. So we could get there eventually. Crazier things have happened. No, it's how we tend to blur the lines between role and identity. Ah, yes. I like that. This is the thing I've been thinking about a lot, actually, of late. And I go back to a lot of the work that I've done in therapy regarding my work addiction. When I actually started going to my therapist, we had an initial conversation where she was asking me like what I wanted to accomplish with therapy and the areas that I wanted to work on. One of the things that came to mind immediately was that I didn't feel like I had an identity outside of my job.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

And like my life and my identity was defined by my role as whatever my job title was. But that it didn't matter the job because I changed jobs over the years and it it never mattered what the job was or where I was working. My identity was my job. Is this a thing you can relate to?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

It is something I can relate to. How much I'm able to achieve and provide has been an identity that I have struggled with to the point where I definitely went way, way over the top to the point where, and through therapy, I have acknowledged this and I've tried to make right with my husband, with my kids. Uh, it was to the detriment of my relationship with them. My intense drive to be a provider and to want to make sure that my family doesn't ever have to go without. Definitely caused me to be a workaholic. Traveling insane amounts of time, working crazy hours, like missing out on important milestones, and generally not being the best spouse or mother or friend. And that's because the role that I saw myself in was the provider. That was just something that I imposed upon myself in a very rigid way. Because I was, I've always been very scared to rely on anybody else for anything.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

This is something that we see, I mean, with with humans in general, but I think women especially, where so much of our lives are revolving around the roles that we play, whether that's professional working woman andor mother andor caregiver and/or fill in the blank, those lines blur really easily when it becomes your entire focus, and there's no room left for you to be you and explore your own personal identity.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Because roles are the things we do, identity is who we are.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

You know, you saying that made me just think a lot of times our roles are imposed upon us before we even had a chance to choose them ourselves. So if there are certain things that we witness or are told from a very young, young age, that automatically becomes a role that we identify with. The environment that we grow up in can really put that on us. And it's something that I know is really easy to blur the lines between who we actually are as a human and as a woman and the role we think we have to play. I know a lot of the people that I've worked with in a coaching capacity, they have felt like they have to be like a peacemaker or something of that nature, just doing whatever it takes to maintain harmony. So it can come from a lot of different places. It can for sure. Most NDAs keep people quiet. Ours does the opposite. Around here, NDA means no dicks allowed.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Not men, the behaviors that keep women small. This is the podcast for women who are done shrinking and ready to rise. I'm Amanda Kachurka.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

And I'm Elizabeth Cipola.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Welcome to NDA. There are a lot of roles that women carry: professional, partner, parent, caregiver, leader, friend. There's plenty more. And over time, those roles become the markers by which we define who we are. In a lot of the coaching and development work that you and I do, we encounter these women who have been so busy producing, caregiving, fixing, leading, holding everything together that the identity of who she is underneath all of that is lost. And so it introduces the question of if you take away your title, if you take away your job, if you take away the role and your perceived use to everyone else, who are you? Because that's it, right? It's that feeling of the role identifies our usefulness. And so when that's stripped away, when you don't look at that part of the equation, who are you?

SPEAKER_01 5:13

And it's something that a lot of us don't really stop to think about. But even if we do, I think we're scared. We're scared of the answer. It's scared to think about because guess what? What if there's not a lot of substance there? What if the answer is nothing but a big disappointment and a letdown? So it's almost easier just to keep identifying as the mom, as the wife, as the friend, as the daughter, as the caregiver, as the PTA volunteer, as the room mom, whatever you you name it. We could go on and on. I don't know. I'm just curious about your reaction to that thought.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah, it's interesting. I actually have an example of a time when I've experienced this in a sort of jarring way. Oh my god. I never really thought too much about this topic until this experience happened a few years ago. And I was like, oh, that was weird. I was working for an organization at the time where we would go out and we would talk to a lot of different businesses and understand their needs, their challenges, and then help them access services and organizations that would help them overcome challenges. And we met with the organization in the finance space. We were doing initial introductions. So I have this role at this company, and they talked a little bit about their families too. And when I got to introduce myself, I talked about my role at the organization and what I was hoping to accomplish with the conversation that day. The one gentleman that I was talking to was like paused and had this sort of puzzled look on his face because I didn't mention anything about family. Right. I tend to be a fairly private person. So in a work setting, I don't talk about family if I can avoid it. And he was like, Well, do you have kids? And I said, No, I could just see the wheels turning in his head. And he was like, Are you married? I said, I'm like looking down at my wedding room. Yes. And it was so funny to me because in that moment I realized like he's trying to figure out what boxes he should put me in. And the fact that I said I didn't have kids, like really threw him off. And then when I told him that yes, I was married, he kind of like nodded, like, Oh, okay, good. I know that I can put you in that box. And it was just like one of the strangest interactions I've ever had in my life. But it really stuck with me. We really do define because apparently, as a woman, the only things I could possibly do are work, raise children, or be someone's spouse. I don't think that's what he was getting at, but it was just funny to like watch almost in his eyes see the like does not compute when I'm sitting in front of him as a late 20-something woman who doesn't have children but is married. And it was, I don't know, I watched a glitch happen in a human right in front of me. It was wild. But it made me pay more attention to like, oh wow, we really, societally speaking, care a lot about role.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

We do. I often try really hard when I'm introducing myself not to lead with two different things that are super common. Thing number one, I try really hard not to lead with what I do professionally. And thing number two, I try really hard not to lead with being a mom. It's not because I'm ashamed of my children, and it's not because I'm ashamed of what I do professionally, but first and foremost, I do want people to know who I am as a human. My husband, he works in school administration, and there are lots of people who have no clue of really like who I am, other than being known as Mike's wife. And then I'm talking about people that he interacts with professionally. And that's something that I always struggle with. And if they meet me, it's like, oh, you're Mike's wife, or even when my kids were younger in school, oh, you're Nick's mom, or you're Tony's mom, or you're Livy's mom.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Yeah. There's something to be said for looking at, and I'm just going to use the context of introductions because that's what we were talking about. But think about how much more interesting the conversations you would have with people would be if you started with, I tend to be someone who is pulled towards solving messy problems, or I'm wired to build systems that make things run smoother, or I love to notice patterns in people and how they interact. Right. Doesn't that like pique so much more curiosity and more discussion than just here's my title and the place where I work?

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah, because like being those things, right? The COO, CEO, volunteer, parent, they're important, but they're not the sum total of who we are. If you had a different job tomorrow, you'd still be Amanda, right? Correct. Yes. And if your family dynamics changed, you'd still be Amanda. If we started to think of it as, okay, yeah, maybe the roles will shift, but I don't disappear.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Right. If I introduce myself to someone and say, Hi, I'm Amanda, I'm really drawn to understanding how people operate, especially looking at patterns that drive how they show up in work and in life. I'm setting the groundwork for what I bring to the table myself, not in the context of my position. Because regardless of the position I hold, that's something that I love. I love understanding how people operate. I love looking at behavioral patterns and helping them develop awareness of those patterns and giving them the power of choice to show up differently. That's not going to change based on my role. That's something that I love doing that I have loved to do. So now I'm thinking about as I go to events and networking things and opportunities where I am able to introduce myself. Sure. I want to look at this through a different lens. I'm not going to sit here and say, like, this is going to be an easy shift. This is one example of where you could start to make a shift to try to create some delineation between you and your roles. If you're using this like at an event or something where you're meeting a lot of different people, there are probably going to be people who are going to stare at you like you have seven heads. Um, that's fine. They can do that if they'd like. But if you're looking to create some separation between your roles and your identity, start with how you talk about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Because again, we've said we said it in a previous episode where people will learn to show up for you the way you show up for you. So if you stop referring to yourself in the context of your roles, you are training people to stop doing that as well.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

This is something as aware of I as I am logically about this concept, it has to constantly be top of mind for me because it is really easy for me and very natural for me to confuse who I am as Elizabeth person, the woman, with like, oh, let me do it, I'll fix it for you, or I'll figure out a solution, or I don't need your help, I'll just do it, or I'll take and take so that you can rest and you can relax, or you don't have to worry about it. And then I wonder why I scratch my head sometimes, feeling like, geez, no one shows up for me like I show up for them. How many times have they probably tried and I shut it down? I kind of would like my friends to reach out and and call me. Since I have friends who do that, but my point is if we're willing to shed some of those roles, it can let other people see who we really are underneath.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Yeah, it makes for more authentic relationships and interactions if you're willing to go deeper than just the role.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

There is this statement that a previous coach of my own had shared with me one time, and it really, really stopped me right in my tracks. She said, Your being this is not the same as your doing this. It was a really in-your face distinction of okay, you're more than what you can do for others. A lot of that has to do with codependency, right? But it just opened a whole nother universe for me to give myself permission to explore and peeking my head into how to actually seek fulfillment from within in a way that, like I said, it literally unlocks something within me that gave myself permission to figure out who am I, who is Elizabeth, and and to try to really make choices and create boundaries in how I live my life and who I invite into my inner circle so that I can truly make choices that are authentic to who I am.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

We're identified by the roles that we play. When you strip that away and you strip the quote unquote useful lens away, a lot of women, myself included, for a very long time, didn't know what that identity was without that usefulness and without that purpose. If somebody were to have asked me even year or two ago, who are you? What is your identity? I don't know that I would have had an answer.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

I know I wouldn't have, honestly. And it makes me really sad when I think of all the missed opportunities leading up to when I had that realization that I could have not only dipped my toe in the water to experience in my own life, but also the lessons that that has taught my daughter or my sons.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

So the question then is how do I start to find my identity? And I think personally speaking, an activity that was really helpful for me was to start by looking at my core values, my personal core values, understanding what are the things that are important to me in my life outside of work, outside of the roles that I play, what are the things that I hold most dear? And going through that exercise of looking at that, because to be able to just like come out and say, This is who I am, this is what I believe, and this is my identity, like that's a pretty big jump when you're not used to doing something like that. We're not asking you to take that big of a leap, but we would love it if you would take some time to reflect on your own core values for context. My core values are authenticity, connection, discovery, freedom, and peace. Those are the things that are most important to me. I want to be my authentic self. I want to prioritize the connection that I have with my friends, with my family, with the people in my professional life. I love communicating with them, talking with them, having conversations, just keeping those connections alive. I love learning new things, discovering new places. I love to have the freedom to structure my time and my days and my life, how I want to do that. And inner peace is really important. Right, right. Things that disrupt my inner peace. Thanks, but no thanks.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Yes, definitely. It's funny you should mention core values because I took a look when I moved out of my old office a little over a month ago. I had my core values listed up there. And I thought, I don't know how much those resonate with me anymore. So I'm gonna off the cuff come up with some that I think would resonate with me, but I want to do a little exercise with myself to see what bubbles up as my core values. But I know one is definitely authenticity that is really, really important, and another one is challenge. I love to be challenged. I love to always push boundaries, not just for sport, but because I think it can just really explore possibility. I am probably one of the most protective, loyal people you'll ever meet. And so there's gotta be something in there for that. And then another one is joy, just joyfulness. I have not really ever known how to allow myself to experience it. And that's something that I'm is so important to me and I'm constantly striving for. So just have the cuff, that's what I think would come up. But I want to add that on my little to-do list to do an exercise to see what my core values are.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

It's a great way to start to form a connection with what's under the surface. I have mine, my core values are actually the lock screen on my phone. That was an intentional decision because I want them in front of me all the time. Because much like core values for a nonprofit or a professional organization, it's the the cornerstone of my decision making. Every activity that I do, every project, everything that I do in my life, I run through the lens of my core values and looking at does this align, does it not align? And that's how I build an intentional life around my identity and what's most important to me, not the roles that I play.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

You had mentioned about staying true to your core values, and that's how we can make sure that we are not confusing our role with our identity. One thing that is really helpful that I would like to just offer up to everyone, and that is just take notice of where you catch yourself becoming performative or trying to earn your place. When I say performative, break that down into plain language.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

It's stepping outside of that authenticity in a way that's like, okay, I'm gonna do this, and it's not really real to me, it's not really authentic to me, but I'm gonna do it anyway because that's what's required. And if you could I wish you could see me right now because I'm making like very dramatic hand gestures. Jazz hands a little bit. So if you're being performative, it may or may not include jazz hands.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

And I also it's also like no not only noticing those moments when you're doing that, becoming performative, or like you have to earn your right to be heard, or earn your right to be there, or if you're like minimizing yourself or expanding yourself or take up more space or less, whatever. I would also encourage our listeners to notice within themselves when does something just feel off? A lot of times we explain it away, but you can just feel it. Like those examples that you and I have shared. There are times when I stay silent when in the past where I've known that by staying silent, I'm just doing it to people please, and I'm not being authentic to who I truly am. I feel it in my chest. I feel really tense, or I get really even extra fidgety more than I already am on a regular basis. Just by starting this explore how to separate who you are from what you do for others, that is a huge step. So it's not about literally trying to become someone new, because there are a lot of you listening who are juggling a lot of roles. It's not about trying to be someone new, it's about really getting intentional and noticing moments where you can allow the real you to take up more space. Yeah. Because for fuck's sake, you're allowed to take up space in your own life. If we hear that and if we believe it, then we show up differently with the choices we make, with the voice that we bring into those choices. And it really empowers us to allow ourselves to take up space. Couldn't have said it better myself.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Love it. Thank you. So I think it's actually a nice transition to our shrink this segment that we love so much. Is there a moment that you can think of that's happened recently? Yes, you've recognized shrinking behavior in yourself because I want to hear. So we just recently had a conversation. We've had many conversations.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Well, no, no, with somebody else. With somebody else. Sorry. You and I just engaged in a conversation with somebody else. I don't know, three or four days ago. And this person, I know they don't like me. It's because the way that I take up space makes them uncomfortable. And so, and by the way, for our listeners, I'm direct, I'm assertive, and I stay true to my boundaries. I'm firm to my boundaries. So that makes this person who's rather conflict avoidant uncomfortable. And so I went into this conversation thinking it's best if I just stay silent and I don't really say anything or I don't say too much because I don't want to rock the boat. And I'm I'm frustrated with myself because I feel like I allowed myself to settle for something I was not okay with during that conversation as an outcome. So I am done with that. That's a great one.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

I think for me, when I'm in a tough conversation, because I by nature am conflict avoidant, I hate it with every fiber of my being. It makes me uncomfortable. And when I'm in those scenarios, I Tend to ease, and then that's where my internal voice gets really loud of like, you're blowing this. What are you doing? You're screwing it up. This is not good. And I like amp myself up more. Okay. Regardless of what's really happening in this scenario, I'm making it 10 times worse in my head. Oh. And then that like trips me up even more. So I think it's a good reminder for me to practice grounding in the moment. We talked about it an episode or two ago, where it's like recognizing in the moment that, hey, this is a thing that you're doing. This is not reality. Take a second and regroup. And to your point, could the outcome of that conversation have been any different if I would have leaned more into what I knew to be true, not the fire alarms that were going off in my brain?

SPEAKER_01 22:54

It's like a runaway train of panic. And then you're reacting to these, all these what ifs as if they're fact, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Yeah, exactly. It's that like overreactive state that I really hate being in and find myself in often. So that's a thing that I, you know, a behavior that I tend to allow to take over and I want to work on. Love it. As always, if you have shrinking behavior that you've recognized in yourself and you want to send it to us so we can share it on the episode. We're not gonna call you out like by first and last name. The purpose of this is to share the behaviors that we all exhibit, again, whether intentionally, unintentionally imposed on ourselves or imposed on us by others. We want to hear about your shrinking behavior and the realization that you came to as you recognized, hey, this is shrinking behavior. And then any shift that you made either in the moment or what you would do differently the next time, we want to hear about it. So send us a DM on Instagram, NDA underscore pod. We would love to hear from you about your shrinking behavior. Because guess what? Your roles are gonna change. Your beingness is not your doingness. As Elizabeth said earlier, I do really like that actually. Love it. Thank you for joining us for this episode of NDA. If you want to make sure that you never miss a future episode, please subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, anywhere you get your podcasts. You can also follow us on Instagram. We are NDA underscore pod. We would love to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening. We're in this together.