Running On Empty and Calling It Drive

You're doing all the things you're supposed to do. The things that are supposed to make you feel fulfilled. And yet — something's still missing, and you can't quite put your finger on it. In this episode, Amanda gets real about her own experience with exactly that feeling: checking all the boxes, staying busy, keeping up with it all, and still coming up empty.

We dig into how busyness can masquerade as a pursuit of fulfillment — how it mimics purpose, creates a sense of control, and keeps you just distracted enough to avoid the harder, more uncomfortable question underneath: what needs do I have that aren't being met?

This is one of those episodes that might make you look at your own life a little differently — not at how much you're doing, but at what you might be using all that "doing" to avoid.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I used to pride myself on being busy. I don't know. Is that something you've ever done?

SPEAKER_01 0:06

So, yes, I have. And I notice how there are so many of us. And this is men and women today. We're here to talk, of course, through this podcast about women who do it, but so many who wear it like a badge of honor and try to one-up each other with just how busy we are.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

I didn't necessarily go the one-upping route, but I definitely wore my busyness as a badge of honor for a really long time. When we talk about this concept of busyness, it was a stacking behavior. Basically, what I was doing, and through some fairly extensive therapy work, I understood where it was coming from. When something feels off, when you feel unfulfilled or unsettled, some women have the instinct to start stacking things. Okay involvement at all. Yes. And that's exactly what I was doing. So it's the instinct is not to stop and figure out where is this coming from, why is this happening? The instinct is to stack all of these things.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

So it's almost like all of the things are their drug, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:18

To do a quick hit, not to be silly, but you see this a lot with people who, especially people who are workaholics. I listened to a keynote speaker recently who described workaholism as the most socially acceptable addiction, which oh yeah, agree. Absolutely. It's still an addiction and it changes your life in a lot of ways. If you don't become aware of it and take some steps to course correct, it can really become detrimental to your life.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

I honestly believe society does so much to reward that behavior as well, especially in America, to be honest. We're brutal when it comes to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

No question. So that's what we want to talk about today. Using me as an example.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Okay, because we're gonna really share.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

I am. We're diving deep today. So buckle up, get ready.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Most NDAs keep people quiet. Ours does the opposite. Around here, NDA means no dicks allowed. Not men, the behaviors that keep women small. This is the podcast for women who are done shrinking and ready to rise. I'm Amanda Kachurka. And I'm Elizabeth Cipola. Welcome to NDA.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Let's take it back a few steps and look at what this behavior looks like in practice. So I mentioned it's a tendency to stack different activities or involvement or responsibilities instead of stopping and assessing why you might feel unfulfilled or why you feel stuck or off. So for me, what that looked like was I had a day job, and I've I've mentioned on episodes before, I don't have children. So I had free time that because I was feeling unfulfilled in my day job, I started packing on volunteer opportunities. And the insult to injury there for me was their volunteer opportunities. So I was getting paid for exactly none of them.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

But you were getting something out of it, right? I always like to say that for people who volunteer. No one does anything just purely for no reason. You get something out of it. So what were you getting out of it?

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Yeah. So I think that's the double-edged sword, right? Is like on one side, I was feeling good about the work that I was doing. I was feeling really good about the organizations that I was helping. I was really proud of the things that we were accomplishing. But also by the same token, there was just this constant feeling of I don't feel appreciated, I don't feel valued, which is not to say anything negative about the organizations that I was volunteering with. They were certainly extremely appreciative of the work that I was doing and expressed that. But this was a me problem. This was me feeling unfulfilled, even though on the outside I was very high performing and successful. And my resume at that point in my life was really impressive, but I was really hurting on the inside and nobody knew. When did you realize it was a problem? Unfortunately, not until the pandemic. I had been doing this for years. It started, I'll say maybe 2012, 2013, around that general ballpark. I didn't notice until the pandemic because everything shut down. So a lot of the organizations that I was involved with, a lot of the events that I was involved with, nothing was happening. So I all of a sudden had all this free time again. And I literally remember one day waking up and looking at my calendar and there being like one virtual meeting for work on my calendar and nothing else, and thinking to myself, holy shit, free time. This is what it's like to have free time. It had been so many years since I had genuinely had free time that was my own to do whatever I wanted to do. I forgot what that was like. Were you afraid? What were you scared of? Can you go back in time?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

What were some of those thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Being unproductive, being not busy. You know, I had been go, go, go, go, go for so many years that all of a sudden everything came to a screeching halt, like slam the brakes. And I'm like, what do I what do I do? I've got free time. Like on one hand, yay, I've got free time. On the other hand, oh no, I've got free time. What do I do?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Because what would that mean about you? What in your mind were you saying, Well, if I have all this free time, what the hell am I gonna do? What were you afraid that would say about who you are? I'm lazy. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Yeah. It was, well, there are ways you could find to fill your time. So you should do that. And instead, in my mind, it was like, okay, well, I've got to find things to fill my time because if I don't, I'm gonna be that person that's not doing anything, and then I'm gonna be looked at as as lazy or not driven, and I don't want that. What ended up happening was instead of because you know, global pandemic, everything shut down, we're all confined to our houses. I started throwing myself into the one thing that still existed, which was work. So even though I really at that point was unhappy in the role that I was in, I threw myself into work. And so I started working absolutely crazy, crazy hours. So, for context, I was working for a membership-based organization, community organization. My job was creating educational programming. But we were just cranking out webinars multiple times a week. And so I would wake up, I'd start my day at like 8:30, and then I'd be working until nine, 10 o'clock at night, absurdly long days, just throwing myself completely into work. And the organization was in a position where things were rough because it was rough for everybody, right? Global pandemic. Like it threw everybody and everything into a tailspin. Ultimately, later that year, my position ended up being eliminated. But I remember thinking to myself after finding out that my position was being eliminated, oh my God, I spent how much time did I spend working all of these hours and stacking on task after task after task? And all I could think was this is how I'm repaid. And I was very much like personalizing it at that point in time because you know it's emotional.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

And you know what else would make you personalize it? I mean, not just what you just described, as far as sure, it's emotional, also the fact that if you associate your worth as a human with what you can produce, that's gonna be extra gut-wrenching and offensive and infuriating.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

It was it was very jarring. Then I'm throwing myself into the next thing, which is finding a new job. So I, of course, because you know me, I don't have ass anything. So it's like throw myself wholeheartedly into finding a new job and starting to stack more volunteer opportunities as the world opens back up. And so I started to repeat the same patterns that I had pre-pandemic, not thinking about the brief moments where I really did enjoy the free time that I had, and instead focusing on that pesky moira that I talked about a couple episodes ago, being like her, she causes all sorts of problems. She would start talking to me again and being like, Oh, you better get back to it. People are gonna think you're lazy, people are gonna think you're not driven if you don't get back to it, especially now that you don't have a job. Like, what are people gonna think that you're unemployed? That was the constant message. So I started stacking up stuff again and started repeating the same patterns. Well, then when I started working at the firm where you and I previously worked, that was a completely new role. It was work that I really hadn't done in that way before, some of it at all, ever before. And so I think I got to a point where I started recognizing, like, oh, hey, I actually do want some of that free time back, but yeah, I can't just walk away. Like, I'm feeling really overwhelmed because I'm trying to learn this new job, I'm trying to learn a new organization, I'm trying to integrate into a new team. I'm very out of my element in some of these areas. So in my mind, I'm like, okay, maybe it is time to step back from some things. But then Moira's piping up again saying, Well, you can't just leave being overwhelmed. You can't just walk away from this stuff, even though you're overwhelmed. That's not a good reason. So I stepped away from a lot of things using the reason or the excuse of, well, I just started this new job and there's a lot to learn. And, you know, I just really need to give that my focus. And now I look back, and I actually just had this conversation with someone a week or so ago. I look back at that time in my life and think being overwhelmed was enough of a reason.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Exactly. Exactly. It's definitely enough of a reason.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

And honestly, I almost feel like I know you said you like you don't like to do anything half-ass, right? Correct. If we're spreading ourselves too thin, we're lying to ourselves. Because as a wise man from parks and recreation once said, never half-ass two things, whole ass one thing. That's right, Ron Swanson. It's true though, we're lying to ourselves when we think we can be everything for everyone because we can't. You mentioned that a lot of this really came to light for you during the pandemic. I'm just wondering how much of it was maybe to keep your mind off of things that were really, really scary and stressful for you where you felt out of control because obviously with the pandemic, all of us felt out of control. And I know for you specifically, I don't want to call you a control freak, but I also wouldn't be afraid to call you that.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Oh no, that's yep.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Accurate. But I'm just curious about that.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yeah, it's I it's interesting that you mentioned that too, because around the time when all of this stacking behavior really started, I don't think I've talked about it yet, but my mom passed away in 2014 from cancer. And she was diagnosed in 2010. And so a couple years into that was really when the stacking behavior started to become an unmanageable level. So I think yes to the pandemic and also yes to what was happening in my personal life. The type of cancer that my mom had was very rare and aggressive. And so there were lots of like experimental treatments and a lot of ups and downs. She was diagnosed as terminal from the beginning. It was some really high peaks and some really low valleys through that entire process. So I think to the control theme, I was bringing some semblance of steadiness because it's like, well, if I'm busy, then I'm not thinking about what's happening to my mom. I'm not thinking about what's happening to the world during the pandemic. We all have stuff in life that we seek to bring some semblance of stability when our safety feels threatened. And so this is how it happens to manifest for me.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

It could be any sort of major life experience that a lot of times can trigger a tendency to develop this form of addiction. I I am gonna call it that. I believe it is what it is, that otherwise has been dormant. Because when you think about it, it's at the end of the day, whether, God forbid, like you stated, you lose a parent, or I know others have experienced pregnancy loss or uh loss of a child, loss of a spouse, maybe extreme financial distress, loss of a job, loss of employment. Those sort of major life experiences, it creates deep gut-wrenching pain. And instead of processing it, not because we don't want to, because we're friggin' scared and we don't know how to. We don't know who to turn to. It's scary. Yep. Instead of downing it with booze, we down it with busyness.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Yeah, that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

I I know you and I have spoken about this before. The fact that it is the easiest addiction to have in plain sight because society rewards it. Right. Yeah. And especially as women, we are conditioned from really early ages to take care of everybody else and to look like we're all put together. To me, that reinforces it's easier to focus on everyone else instead of ourselves. Right, exactly. I commend you for sharing your story because there are so many women. All you have to do is look on social media, look around the room, uh, the meeting room, the conference room, look around your friends, and you'll see there are so many of us who on the outside look like super women. Really, we are scared and we're hiding from what's going on. And it's okay to get it out in the open and talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

It is. We should be talking about it. There are clues that you can listen for when you're talking with friends, family members, whomever. You know, it's like, oh, I just need to get through this phase of life or this stage of my life. Oh, I thrive when I'm busy. I just need something new to feel excited again. I'm getting into this because I'm looking for something that's going to help me feel energized. And then internally, you're feeling a sense of exhaustion paired with restlessness, which is a really strange combination to feel. Cause on one hand, you're like, oh my God, I can't possibly add one more thing, but you're still feeling unfulfilled or you're still feeling out of control. So then that's that trigger that prompts you to reach for something else and continue to stack it on. You have no clear sense of why you're doing what you're doing, and you're still feeling stuck despite being outwardly facing very quote unquote productive.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Right. And it's rewarded. That's yeah, productivity equals worth. And again, you've heard me say it a hundred times. I'll say it a hundred more. We teach people how to treat us. When we give more, what's expected? More. Right. Exactly. And then it becomes an assumption that, oh, Amanda's got it, she'll do it, she'll take care of it. I I have witnessed that with you. I really have. I've witnessed that with you. And then I've also witnessed where people will have a hard time even being able to recognize, well, what did Amanda do? Did Amanda really? Because when we take and take and constantly say, I'll do it, I'll do it. It is actually a shrinking behavior because it's saying, I'm not as important. What I have going on is not as important. And therefore, I'll just lay myself down to be used and in whatever way you need to use me. And therefore, it just becomes a way of life, right? So it's not even noticeable or recognizable anymore to the untrained eye of holy shit, look what Amanda did. It's just, well, she always does that. Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

It's not even villain. That's a very valid point. I've never really thought about it that way before, but you're absolutely right. I have felt that way so many times where I'm in a position, whether it's a paid work role or a volunteer role, where it's like I am bending over backwards to do whatever I need to do for this particular role. And I don't feel like anybody really values or appreciates what I'm contributing. And it never really occurred to me that's become the bare minimum of what people expect from me. Right. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Yeah, it's totally our culture in a lot of it. It is.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

It's absolutely our culture because from a mental health perspective, it's easier to just shove it all down and stay busy than to stop and sit with, I'm not happy.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

You fall into that cycle of just constant activity and feeling like you constantly have to be productive. We just went on vacation this past week and we were at the beach with our friends going to different places. And I was pretty saddened when I looked around. There were a lot of people on their cell phones. A lot of people, not even taking in what was happening. I don't know how many were doing work. My point is, it does constantly feel like you have that almost like a magnetic pull to have to be active all the time.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Yeah, that's absolutely it. And it puts us into this cycle of chronic burnout that's masked as ambition that is viewed from the outside as high performance because you're just always on. And so now you're in this like constantly dregulated state, and you've got the cortisol pumping through your system. You start having physical symptoms, which I definitely did. I was getting to a point where, you know, I was having headaches all the time, felt tired all the time, and it was really starting to affect me physically. And so that also then increases the depression that I was dealing with. I remember being, I want to say it was, I think it was 2021. We were on a family vacation, and I was just still involved in too much and starting this new job. And I had gotten to a point where I was just so overwhelmed. There was one night where it was just my husband and I we were like getting ready for bed, and I just started sobbing uncontrollably. I remember sitting on the bedroom floor, sobbing, thinking, I can't explain, you know, my husband's like being very caring and trying to help, and what can I do? You know, how I want to help you. And I didn't know what to tell him because I just something broke.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Oh gosh. So that breakdown you had, we temporarily boost it, staying busy and and doing all these things and just getting addicted to, as I called it earlier, that high. But then what comes up must come down, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

That's probably what happened in the middle of your vacation when you actually had a moment to come down a little bit and it just hit you.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Yeah, it like all hit at once, even during the pandemic. It was constantly building, especially working all the absurdly long hours and things like that. I do have anxiety. I was having no anxiety attacks like every other day. You know, my for me, like my arms would go numb. I would have trouble breathing, I would just start crying inexplicably out of nowhere. And it just kept happening, kept building. And at no point, this is the part that's wildest to me. At no point in my brain in those moments was I thinking, maybe there's something wrong.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Really? What were you thinking?

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Maybe I should do something about this because I was just so focused on things are really scary, but I've got to get it together because I've got work to do and I've got people that I can't let down, and I'm supposed to be the reliable one. So come on, snap out of it. Let's move through it.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Your way of trying to cope was trying to squeeze harder on the control that you had. Yes. Oh, okay. So many people can relate to that. I know I can because it's easier to do that, and it's again, we don't know where to turn what to do as an alternative. So we stick to the familiar.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Right, exactly. The thing that I eventually learned, and it took a lot of talk therapy and time and a lot of trial and error on my part to understand. Let's stop for a second and look at what am I trying to fix or mask by continually just piling things on. Um, you know, I'm feeling stuck, I'm feeling restless, I'm not feeling fulfilled. So instead of asking, what else can I take on? What I needed to be asking was what actually needs to change.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

So actually thinking about what is the need I'm trying to meet, how can I meet this need differently? Yes, I think that's a good way to articulate it.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Just creating space, even if it's the tiniest space, just a little glimmer of space to think for a little while instead of just moving into reaction mode.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

It might be tough for you to even figure out what is the need I'm trying to meet, because automatically your brain might say, Well, the need I'm trying to meet is I have to do more because I have to do this for so and so and this for so and so, and have to do this by then. But if you ask yourself why, it's that famous ask why five times, that will get you to the need you're trying to meet.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Yeah, that's that's completely right. We talk a lot about different emotions that we have when we're doing coaching work and team building work. We talk About the emotions that we have and and where they come from, and oftentimes we don't take enough time digging deeper and asking, I like the why five times, because that helps you get to what the actual root emotion is. You know, anger is a surface level emotion that is coming out because of something else underneath it, just as an example. And anger is a is a frequent default or was a frequent default of mine. And until I started working with a therapist that helped me unpack where that was coming from and why I was feeling anger and what was truly driving that, it was fear. It was always fear. So all of this to say that feeling stuck, feeling out of control, that's not a signal to start piling on more for those of you who trend in that direction. It's a signal to stop and examine what's not working, what's not serving you, what needs do you have that aren't being met.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

And again, ask yourself what is that core need? And we already gave you how to get to the crux of what that core need might be.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

I think it's time to transition to our regular recurring segment. Yeah. Shrink this. We have had a submission from a listener on a shrinking behavior.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

We did. And what I'm going to share, this particular listener wanted to remain anonymous. So what's a fun name that we can call this listener?

SPEAKER_02 23:30

We're gonna call this person Daphne.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

All right, Daphne, here we go. First of all, love hearing from listeners. So one of our NDA pod listeners and a member of what I would love to call the rise, she wrote in with a really good question, actually. So she shared her example and also asked a question. And I think the question was brilliant because a lot of us probably have wondered. Here's what Daphne shared. She was helping build a website at work, doing most of the heavy lifting, creating the different elements of this website, training others how to use it. And instead of celebrating the progress that was made, some of her project team peers immediately started pointing out what they didn't like. She did not speak up, she did not advocate for herself. So after listening to our first episode, she was wondering was that shrinkage or was that growth? Because I didn't act or react emotionally. I love the question because shrinkage can be disguised. And this is a perfect example of it being a mind screw. When you don't react emotionally, yes, 100% that can be growth. But when you stay silent when you actually have something to say, that's usually a sign of shrinkage. Because I think a lot of us, especially as women, we think that remaining calm means that we have to be silent. However, you can be calm, you can be grounded, and you can still say, hey, before we jump into what's not working, I just want to acknowledge this was a big lift. I put a lot into building and training around this, and I'm really proud of the progress. And if you notice, Daphne, that's not an emotional reaction, it's not defensive, it's owning your work. And shrinkage. So this is where, okay, that fine line of what shrinkage, what isn't? Well, shrinkage is when you leave the moment and you leave yourself behind. Growth is learning how to stay calm and still advocate for yourself. So my two cents, Daphne, is the fact that you're even asking this question that is not shrinkage, but it is showing growth. So that's what I would have to say to Daphne.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Yeah, I like that because growth of any kind is never a linear journey. There's gonna be two steps forward, one step back, one step forward, two steps back. There are going to be moments where there's this kind of weird intersection of shrinking and growth that is gonna feel a little strange to navigate. But I think as you again start to embrace, like we talked about earlier, embracing the uncomfortable feelings for the purpose of growing, you can have these really beautiful moments where you're like, oh hey, look at that. Right. I did it.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

And I just want to say, especially if people aren't used to you advocating for yourself or saying, before we jump into what's not working, I want to acknowledge the heavy lift that went into creating this. If people aren't used to that, sure, maybe they'll stop and pause for a minute. And that's okay. Don't you're not being obnoxious. And it's it's all about being your authentic self. How about that?

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Yes. So again, as Elizabeth said, we are all here for the purpose of learning and supporting each other. And so we would love it if you would submit the shrinking behavior that you've recognized in yourself. Let us know what the behavior is and you know, where or when you caught on to it, how you caught on to it, and whether you've shifted the behavior yet. Or if you need some help and some guidance figuring out what that shift should be, put it in the form of a question and we will, just like Daphne did, and we will certainly respond and give our two cents. That brings us to the end of episode four of NDA. Just a takeaway, I think, from the overall topic of the episode. If you're feeling stuck, if you're feeling unfulfilled, that's not the problem. The problem is ignoring why you're feeling that way and not digging deeper, using the ask yourself why five times to really dig deep and look at where this is coming from. Because if you are somebody who tends to add more to try to find fulfillment or find control, the moment that you're able to stop adding more is the moment that you're gonna start to see it more clearly.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Understand the need you're trying to meet and then figure out how else can I meet that need? What's an alternative way I can meet that need?

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yep. Find find the healthier ways to meet the needs versus putting yourself in a constant spiral of burnout and who knows what other negative symptoms. Right, exactly. So thank you for listening. We sincerely appreciate you taking the time to listen to the episodes uh that we put out because we love doing this. If you are finding a lot of value in these episodes, share, subscribe. You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, anywhere you get your podcasts. And we're here for each other. We're here to learn. We're not here to shame or judge.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

And it's no shame, no judgment. We don't want you. I said it. Don't delete that, Amanda. True.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Maybe look at it as a learning opportunity. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yes.