The Good Girl Tax

You may not get billed for it upfront, but you pay for it constantly.

In this episode, we’re breaking down The Good Girl Tax: the hidden cost women carry when boundaries are weak, unclear, or nonexistent. It shows up as burnout you can’t shake, a version of success that doesn’t feel like yours, simmering resentment you don’t say out loud, and a life that feels overcommitted but under-aligned.

This isn’t about blaming women for “not setting boundaries better.” It’s about naming the conditioning. Most of us were taught—explicitly or subtly—that being agreeable, accommodating, and endlessly capable is what makes us valuable. So we overextend. We say yes when we mean no. We anticipate needs before they’re spoken. And then we wonder why we’re exhausted, disconnected, and quietly angry.

We’re unpacking:

• What the “good girl” pattern actually looks like in real life (it’s not always obvious)
• The less-talked-about costs: identity loss, decision fatigue, chronic stress
• Why high performers are often the most vulnerable to this pattern
• How this dynamic shows up in leadership, relationships, and day-to-day decisions

If you’ve ever felt like you’re doing everything “right” but it still feels off, this is likely part of the equation.

Because the truth is: the more you contort to meet expectations that were never yours, the more it costs you.

And eventually, the bill comes due.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

There is a topic that's very near and dear to both of us. And it's a topic that could probably span, I don't know, weeks, 10 episodes.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

It could. And it's a topic that is so desperately needed to be talked about and get it out in the open more and more.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

And that topic is boundaries. We've picked just kind of a little subset of the topic. You hear a lot about the importance of setting boundaries, and there's lots of guidance on how to do that. But the thing that that assumes is that you are aware of the fact that you don't have boundaries. And a lot of people aren't aware that they don't have boundaries. They don't know what that looks like. You have people who think, oh, this is just how work is, this is just how life is. It's chronic overextension, it's quiet resentment, it's blurred responsibility lines. I like to say if you're constantly finding yourself frustrated with other people's behavior, yes, that's a good indicator that you have boundary issues.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

You know what else? I have another way to figure it out. That's a good one. Another example would be when you're constantly feeling like you have to abandon yourself. Yes. Said differently, you're constantly over-accommodating, bending yourself into a pretzel to please others.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yes. I know that this is a topic that we both love. And I know that you have a lot that you would like to share. So let's have you unpack some of the things that you've experienced and that you've worked with others as they've experienced related to how to determine if you don't have boundaries. Most NDAs keep people quiet. Ours does the opposite.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Around here, NDA means no dicks allowed. Not men, the behaviors that keep women small. This is the podcast for women who are done shrinking and ready to rise. I'm Amanda Kachurka. And I'm Elizabeth Cipola. Welcome to NDA. When we talk about boundaries, if we could think back to when we were growing up, so often in our society specifically, we are groomed to be agreeable. We're groomed to be accommodating. And we're rewarded for being a good girl. So what would you say, Amanda? Just think back to when you were growing up. What are some of the examples of that in your own life where you felt like, oh, I want to be a good girl because you're the oldest and I'm the youngest. So we have opposite perspectives. I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Yeah, the things that kind of reinforced those behaviors, the feedback that my parents would get from teachers, and this is the eldest daughter stereotype that you see going around, like a pleasure to have in class. Yeah, I never heard that. So I was a pleasure to have in class, apparently. Um okay, and I wasn't. But it was also things like, and this gets into some other family things, but my grandpa always used to say to my mom, this was my mom's dad, always used to say to her, Oh, you never gave us five minutes of trouble. And that was a line that my mom got all the time, that my family heard all the time. And it was something that I think kind of reinforced that, oh, you'll be really appreciated if you don't give anybody any trouble ever. So just be good, follow the rules. That was the message that I heard a lot. So not even directed at me, just like my mom is getting this reinforcement from a parent. I want my parents to be able to say that about me too.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

For me, in my situation, and a lot of this could be generational as well, because we do represent different generations. And just for our listeners' knowledge, I represent Gen X and Amanda represents millennials. Yep. For me, it was hearing things like children should be seen and not heard. Don't cry, I'll give you something to cry about. You should just be grateful for what you have. Good girls don't fill in the blank, whether it be argue or whatever. And there was just obedience. It's you just must always be obedient and grateful and not question anything. And it was always force-fed to play these certain roles, right? Where I'm going with this is when we think about that, we're rewarded for being good from early on. Good girls, they don't say no, they don't make waves, they don't challenge authority. And you know what else they don't do? They don't prioritize themselves. And then for those who maybe have done some work on this and are a little bit further on down the path from other listeners, when you start to hold boundaries for the first time, you realize that you aren't the good girl anymore. And suddenly you're labeled as difficult or too much. And in my situation in my family, which it was constantly put upon us to do things out of fear or guilt or obligation, you know, you're selfish, you're disrespectful, things of that nature. You're greedy. So it's interesting because you're the same woman before or after boundaries. The difference is how you're labeled because of how you prioritize yourself. That's the tax you pay for no longer wanting to be the good girl.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

For me, the journey to realizing that I didn't have boundaries. Actually, you were the person who really pointed out to me that I didn't. Yeah, it was it was something that I was kind of like generally aware of, but I guess I didn't realize how many places in my life that I didn't have boundaries when we started working together until you started like basically calling me out on it, which was super helpful. Get yourself uh somebody like Elizabeth in your life to be like, hey, just an observation. She was more direct than that. But um, but it it's things that I would say or catch myself saying, especially once I became aware of the fact that I didn't have boundaries, I would constantly say things like, it's fine, I'll just do it, I'll figure it out. It's quicker if I just handle it. Thinking to myself, well, I don't want to be difficult or I don't want to cause problems, so I'll just take this, I'll figure it out myself. So that's a good place to start is paying attention to when you're in situations where you're taking on responsibility or work that shouldn't typically fall to you, taking a closer look at how you're responding in those situations, because until I actually started paying attention to that, I don't think I realized the depth of my boundary issue, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

It makes sense. And you know, you have me thinking because as chaotic and tumultuous as my household of origin was, as I look back and I reflect upon what we're talking about today. So my mom, she had a lot of difficulties in in her own life, long before she had children. And she was always labeled by my father, by his family, and through a lot of dysfunction, let's say, by other members of the family as difficult. And I'll be honest, she was difficult in many ways. However, one way that she was often labeled as difficult is something I keenly observed from a really young age. And that is she was very curious. She was very intellectually curious naturally, and she always encouraged that in me and in my siblings and even in my nieces and nephews as they came on later in life. And those of us who, in my family at least, didn't automatically say, I'll do it, sure, and say yes to everything. We were labeled as difficult. So I remember her telling me when I was gearing up to join the workplace for the first time. I remember her telling me, Elizabeth, and she was born in the 1930s. She said, Elizabeth, don't ever volunteer to make coffee, to serve anyone coffee, to make copies, or to take notes in a meeting. I jokingly said, I don't know how to make coffee, anyways. And she said, perfect. Don't ever learn. Because what will happen, you'll see, is when you're in the workplace, they'll look to the only woman in the room to do those sorts of things. And I want you to be different, push back and just, you know, hold firm on your boundary. So one of my earliest examples is I was in my young 20s and I was in an HR role early in my career, and we were in a conference room, and they wanted somebody to take notes for the meeting. And I was the only woman, and they looked to me, and I thought, whoa, this is what my mom was talking about. And I said, you know what? I have terrible handwriting, terrible. So I won't be the best person to do it. And everyone was saying, Well, so do I. And I just allowed myself to sit there silent until it got awkward and somebody else had to do it. So that's an example. And I definitely was labeled as difficult because of that. I'm just wondering, Amanda, you said that it was me who pointed it out to you. Was there a specific example for you at work that caused you to realize that?

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Yes, there's definitely an example, specific example that comes to mind. So we had been working together for I don't know, a couple of months probably. And we were in the process of changing some of the materials that we use for a service that we were delivering. And there was a particular form that we had made some changes to. And so we had made the team aware of the changes to the form and how the new form was to be filled out and why it was important that you do it that way and how it would positively impact the amount of effort it was taking the team to document what needed to be documented. So there was a particular person on the team who called me one afternoon and said, I just can't figure out this form. I don't understand why we have to do it this way. I don't understand why the changes were made. And he was basically saying he wasn't going to do it and could I do it for him? Because it would just be faster and easier. And so I, Boundaryless Amanda, said, sure, yeah, I can do it for you. And so I was prepared to do that. And then you happened to call me about something completely different, like right after I'd gotten off the phone with him. And it was the first time you checked in for the day and you were like, Oh, how are you doing? You know, what are you working on? Is there anything you need help with? And I said, Well, I just got this call, and so-and-so said that he isn't gonna use the new form. And he doesn't know how to do it. So he asked if I would do it for him. And you said, and what'd you say? I said, Well, I told him that yes, I would. And your your exact words were, damn it, Amanda. Oh my god. And you and then you followed it up immediately with, I'm not yelling at you, I'm just mad at the situation, which is if you know Elizabeth, that's like a very typical Elizabeth line. I'm not mad at you. I'm just expressing my frustration over the situation. So I'm a dramatic person. It's fine. We love you for it. So in the moment, I was like, oh, wait, that was the wrong answer. Why was that the wrong answer? And then at that point, you offered to support me in getting me out of that situation, basically. So we called this person back together and you said, Hey, Amanda let me know that uh you were having some questions, some concerns about the new form, and you'd asked if she could do it for you. Well, as her supervisor, I'm telling you that she can't. I have something really urgent that I need her to be working on, and so she's not going to be able to take the time to do this for you. Now, if you have questions, please let me know. But I I need you to complete the form yourself. And the thing that really got me in the moment of like, okay, you, meaning me, need to reassess your lack of boundaries. His response was, okay. Now that was that was his response to your face.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Sure. And then what was it? Behind the scenes, who knows? Yeah. Yes, exactly. Behind the scenes, oftentimes, when you try to assert your boundaries, the person won't just say, Okay. They'll try to triangulate or go around you. And think of for those of us who have children, if your child doesn't get their way with mom, who do they go to? They go to dad, right? So there was some of that at play, and that's why it's important. We're not talking about how to set boundaries for this episode. I'm just saying it was great that you recognized it. And don't assume just because you assert your boundaries, people will always automatically respect them. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Yes, for sure. In fact, I would say probably more frequently you get pushback and that doesn't happen. But this was a good exercise for me to just become aware of, oh, wait a minute, you mean no was an option? Right. Because even in my mind, no was not even an option because this person was in a senior role to mine and had been with the company for a really long time. And so, from my perspective, I'm pretty low in the hierarchy. So yeah, this is my job to take on things like this. When in reality, nope, definitely not my job. And so it sort of opened my eyes to the fact that no was a possibility because I did. I yes was my automatic answer every time. And I was never gonna push back on the timelines or the expectations or taking on responsibility that wasn't mine because I had done it for years. You let that build and compound, and then you're in a situation where you're letting the interruptions constantly derail your time, you're not setting any limits, you're not getting the work that you're actually responsible for done because you're taking on so much other work from other people. In order to get that work done, you're working absurd hours. It just starts to snowball and spiral. Right. All because you don't have boundaries and you're not aware of the fact that you don't have boundaries, so you don't know how to fix it.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Exactly. And when we talk about being the good girl, when you think about it, all of us have two different modes. We have action mode and connection mode. And connection mode is where women and girls are expected to live. And examples of that would be being very flexible and accommodating and nurturing and understanding and empathetic and very supportive. And when we shift into action mode, which by the way, that's where boundaries live. Yes, say no, which, like you said, you didn't even know that could be a part of your vocabulary or being protective of your time because there were other things that were a priority you needed to work on. When we shift in the workplace, when we shift into action mode and we don't only live in connection mode, that's where I do believe, having been in the workplace since the early 90s, I will tell you this has not changed very much at all. But when women say no, what are we labeled as? We're not a team player. When women ask for clarity, what are we accused of? Challenging authority. When women hold boundaries, what are we labeled? We're being hard to work with. When women are direct, what are we accused of? Being too blunt. But meanwhile, I see it time and time again. And to be honest, one of the reasons I was so excited to start this podcast is to talk about it. Because when men do the exact same thing, you've seen it, I've seen it. They're told that they're strong leaders, they're rewarded for being confident and decisive. So it's the same exact behavior, but a different label. And I will tell you, I have often felt really, really lonely in a lot of ways because I've never fit the good girl mode well. I just haven't. People get uncomfortable in our society with those of us who hold boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Admittedly, uh, boundaries with friends and family are still areas where I struggle. And I hear it from myself, from my friends, as we approach the age where our parents are starting to get older and require more care, more concern, more oversight. There's uh a really tough pull and a really tough dynamic, especially if you have a good relationship with your parents, of like you feel a sense of obligation to helping them. And a lot of times that sense of obligation overrides prioritizing yourself. And I watched my parents go through it with their parents where that takes over your entire life. And it happens to folks who have children. I've seen that before, where you lose that sense of who you are and how to prioritize yourself as you're caring for other people. I think that's one that virtually everybody on the planet can relate to in some capacity, in some relationship where you're constantly prioritizing others over yourself.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

All of our listeners can relate to this in those contexts from this perspective, especially since cell phones. Now, I remember very clearly before everyone had cell phones. And before we had cell phones, it's not like we were afraid to leave the house in case someone had an emergency. No, we carried on about our business, we lived our lives, we allowed ourselves to disconnect more so than we do now. But now I've done it myself. I see it with my friends, I see it with people when I'm out and about. It's constantly feeling like you have to respond to every single text from your child, from your spouse. Maybe like in your example, your parent who you're having caregiving responsibilities for because oh, I have to respond to this call, this text all the time because what if it's an emergency? What if they need me? And then next thing you know, you never have two seconds to finish a thought.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

And it it's we've talked about this concept before. Your behavior in those situations is teaching people how to treat you. So if you're setting the precedent that I am 24-7, always available, I will always respond quickly. If there comes a time when you don't, if you are getting to a point where you're recognizing, hey, I need to set more boundaries and you start to enforce those boundaries, the response is not gonna be the response, especially in friend and family situations. The response is not gonna be the response that I got from my colleague that, oh, okay, the response is gonna be far more emotional.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

And I just want to be up front with our listeners, it can be really, really lonely when you start establishing boundaries in relationships whereas maybe you hadn't before. Or maybe you have there in the past, but now you're doing it consistently because people were comfortable with what they knew of you before. And when you start establishing boundaries more clearly and more consistently, that dynamic is gonna change in your relationship. So, what will often happen is the people in our lives they might say things such as accusing you of being greedy or selfish or difficult. They might say things like you're not the same. And really, what they're saying is that you used to be easier for me. That's what they're saying, especially we as women, I have been tempted to do it myself. We will gaslight ourselves into thinking, okay, I guess I am being too harsh, I guess I am overreacting, and then we'll convince ourselves that we're the problem, but we're not being difficult suddenly. We're becoming clear, that's what we're doing. So I just think it's important for people to understand that you can be clear and we can be firm, and you can be protective of your boundaries, and you can also be kind, and you can also be empathetic. Yes, we convince ourselves we have to choose.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

We do, and I this makes me think of so a friend of mine recently just got me a little gift, a celebration of starting a business, starting the podcast. And I think she just got it because it's cute and funny, but also the message on it is a good reminder for me. So she got me this little pad of sticky notes, and there's a picture of a pelican on it, and it says, just because you pell a can doesn't mean you pell a should. Oh, I love that. But I saw I took them out of the bag and I saw them, and I was like, Oh, yes, this is a great reminder. Because truly, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something. So I think, especially after that situation that I had that you helped me with at work, was that just because I have the capability or maybe even the capacity, maybe you do have the capacity to take on that work or whatever that person is asking you to do, but that doesn't mean you should do it. And I think that's that's this the part where you have to pause and think, okay, just because I have the capacity, does that mean I should take this on? Or is this something that that person should continue to own and I need to set the boundary?

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Exactly. Capacity does not equal obligation. In my own situation, the most difficult, gut-wrenching, painful experience of holding true to my boundaries despite intense gaslighting and literally going against the world that I've experienced is when I had to hold clear boundaries in a very loving way, I should say. They were very loving, they were very warm, they were firm with my family of origin. And I realized that the boundaries didn't push my family of origin away. What they did though is they brought out into the light the unhealthy dynamics because I was not willing to play the game anymore. And it's tough, it's not easy, but when I set those boundaries, it was very lonely, it was heartbreaking, devastating because you don't just lose a parent, you lose. Your parents, you lose your siblings, you lose your nieces and nephews. I only have three relatives that even speak to me anymore. And yes, it's lonely, but you know what? It's not loss, it's space that you create for relationships where you don't have to shrink to belong.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

And that's what boundaries are. Yes. Couldn't have said it better myself. We're not gonna get into a ton about how to set boundaries, but I think some signals to look for. We talked about when you're in a situation where you're being asked to do something and you know in your heart that you should set a boundary. A tendency, especially that I have, is to overexplain. Oh yes. And oh, well, I can't do it because blah, blah, blah, and I'll talk in circles. You don't need to do that. It can be as simple as that won't work with my current priorities. I'm not available for that. Let me check on that and get back to you.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

How often do we negotiate against ourselves by overexplaining, like you said? And then we pay the price with our time, our energy, our voice, our identity, and and then we wonder where we went.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

That in and of itself is a another episode, too, of negotiating against ourselves and asking for what we need. I think that's something that a lot of women really struggle with. So we'll definitely do a future episode on that.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

I firmly believe that is a big root cause, not the only, but a big root cause of why there's a big wage gap for women in the Oh yeah. No question. I'll leave it there. Not giving ourselves permission to ask for what we need.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

You give a woman some male audacity. Oh, yeah. A woman with male audacity could not be stopped. This is a good time to jump into our regular segment, shrink this. I believe we had someone reach out and share some shrinking behavior. Is that correct? Yes, that is true.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

We had a listener of our podcast who I like to call a member of the Rise, because that's all of us who listen to the NDA pod. She too is remaining anonymous. Let's call her Stephanie. And here's what Stephanie wrote: my shrinkage moment. Showing up to one of the very first women's networking events, and I felt so empowered as a solo creative business owner to go and network with these powerhouse women only to be immediately dismissed because I wasn't with some firm or recognized company. Additionally, I tested this group of women by starting to chat with one group with normal conversation starters, only to have one of them literally turn their back to me. And then I tested another group of women by starting the conversation by complimenting their purse or jewelry. And then I had their full attention. That event really left me feeling small. And at the same time, there was this pressure, looking back, my own build pressure, that this group had to accept me in order for my business to grow and be successful. Later, when I thought about size, these 80 women or so were only a fraction of the 280,000 people in this county. No way would I let this small number of behaviors or other women ever make me feel like that again. So I went national for networking. And though it took some time to let go of that shrinkage moment, I put my big girl pants on and kept going forward. So I love that story because here's something we don't say out loud enough. Not all women support other women. And yes, even other women-specific networking groups or organizations. I was just talking to another woman yesterday, actually, who shared a similar experience who mentioned she went to a women-specific networking organization in a completely different state than where this anonymous writer submitted from. And they also walked away from that event feeling completely dismissed, never to go back. So walking into a room expecting that only to feel dismissed, it fucking sucks. It stings, right? And that's just but what I love is what our listener did next. She decided she didn't belong. She decided maybe that room just wasn't hers. Yeah, maybe it's not the right room. Exactly. It's like, no, it's not that I'm not good enough. It's I need a bigger or better room. We're resilient and we don't let one small room determine how big we're willing to grow.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Exactly. And I think it's goes back to that messaging that we receive all throughout our lives of be less if you've got a big personality, minimize yourself to be more accepted, to be more palatable. And you know what? If that's not your style, that's not your style. And that's okay because you don't have to fit in every single room that you walk into. Spoiler alert, nobody does. There are always gonna be people who don't fit in the rooms that you're in, and that's okay. You move on and you find a new room and you find new people. Thank you, Stephanie, for that uh submission. We really appreciate it. For my shrink this, I'm actually going to revisit something that I committed to a few episodes ago. So if you listened to our very first episode, you heard me talk about my trivia team that I um am with every week and how I have a tendency to hold back when I think I might know an answer, but I'm not a hundred percent confident. I'll just stay quiet instead of offering it. So something that I committed to in the first episode was I'm gonna stop doing that. I'm gonna speak up more, I'm gonna do it because I have a voice and I need to use it. And my teammates, that's never stopped them. So I need to be more like them. Again, my teammates are all men, so the confidence is definitely there from them, not so much for me. So after we recorded that episode and it started streaming, um, I told them about it. One of the team members is my husband, so obviously he knew, but then I told our other two team members about how I have this tendency. And so they adorably have been so supportive of this. We were at trivia last week and there was a question that we weren't sure on the answer, and like point blank looked at me at one point and were like, Amanda, do you think you might have an answer? Is there is there anything you might want to contribute or say? Because now's the time. So they've just been super like supportive and actually also holding me accountable. And guess what? There have been, there was one time in the last few weeks where I did think I knew the answer and I gave it and we ended up missing it and also therefore not getting any points for the entire round. I spoke up, I used my voice, I contributed the answer. Even if I thought it was maybe wrong, I still did it. The reason that I bring this up as the shrink this for this week is because I think it's so important when you're setting goals like this for yourself to change your behavior. Having people around you to support you in that effort is so incredibly helpful. And I'm so grateful to my team members for supporting me, even when I give them incorrect answers.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

So it wasn't the Hollywood ending where you see in movies where you save and they hoisted you under their shoulders and carried you out to collect your prize.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Definitely not. Nope. So I'm giving myself a little pat on the back for committing to doing what I was saying that I was going to do. And I just wanted to give that update. So if you can communicate to a friend, a family member, someone who loves you and that will support you as you're trying to transform your behaviors, it really does help because it feels good when you practice it and you do it. And even if it's not the result that you wanted, that's okay because you practice the new behavior, and that's just a step in the right direction of creating that lasting change that will help you be more authentically you. Yes. So this brings us to the end of episode five. Just some food for thought. If you are waiting until you feel confident enough to start setting boundaries, you're gonna be waiting a long time.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yes, until it's the perfect time, right? Because there is no such thing.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

A lot of people, myself included, recognize their lack of boundaries after the fact, whether it's through feelings of resentment, exhaustion, frustration, whatever the case may be. And that's data, right? Use that resentment as data to pause and say, Oh, why do I feel this way? Did I commit to something that I shouldn't have? And the more you start to recognize those feelings and challenge those feelings and where they're coming from, the more awareness you're creating. And eventually you're going to get to the point where you start to recognize them in the moment. And then you can pause and give one of those responses that we said earlier to keep yourself from committing to something that you shouldn't and and bending a boundary.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yes, because what do you always say, Amanda? What do we we always say on the NDA pod? Awareness creates what? Choice. Awareness creates. That's right. And choice creates change. Ability to change.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

That's right. Thank you, thank you, thank you for listening. If you feel that someone else in your life would benefit from the community that we're creating and the topics that we're sharing, please feel free to share this with them. You can find us on Instagram at Nda underscore pod. We are also available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, wherever you get your podcasts. We would love to have you subscribe and share what we're doing so you can continue to join us as we build this community, this rise of women who are learning to become more authentically ourselves. Yes.