The Making of a Mean Girl

Mean girls don’t appear out of nowhere. They’re created inside systems that teach women there is limited space, limited approval, limited success, and limited safety available to them.

In this episode, we unpack the scarcity mindset that quietly turns women against each other and explore why competition between women is often less about cruelty and more about survival, conditioning, fear, and learned self-protection.

We talk about what happens when women are taught to see other women as threats instead of community, how comparison and exclusion become normalized, and why authentic vulnerability can feel dangerous in environments built on performance and scarcity.

This conversation is not about excusing harmful behavior or blaming women. It’s about understanding the systems and experiences that shape it and what becomes possible when women stop guarding the door and start building bigger tables instead.

Because women were never meant to do this alone.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Women, in my opinion, are not naturally wired to hate each other.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Yeah, I agree. I think where you're wired to be collaborative and have community with each other. Let's look back thousands of years. Women lived communally. The it takes a village to raise a child saying that came from somewhere. And it's it did. It used to be a village where women would support each other, they would live in these communal areas and they would support each other with raising children and preparing food and making clothing and all of these things. So yeah, I don't think women are hardwired to hate each other either. No. So they're definitely so why does that happen?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

If you think about the systems that we as women have been living within, right? Especially if you think about sure the workplace, social media, even for people that maybe are taking some time away from their careers and they're raising children, and you think of volunteer positions, there's only one promotion to be had, or one chosen room mom or for the classroom, or one woman that the boss listens to. And so my hot take is that those sorts of realities for the system that we're surviving within, it naturally causes survival instincts to kick in. So I don't think it's female nature. I actually think it's situational conditioning.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Yeah, I would agree. When we started this podcast, one of the things that we talked about was how we wanted to cover behaviors that women impose upon themselves and also behaviors that are imposed on us by people around us by the systems that we live in. So this is one of those episodes that's going to be about a behavior that, not to say that women don't impose it on themselves to a point, but I think the origination comes from outside of ourselves. I don't think we're fully aware of the impact that it has and how it has transformed our behavior over time. I think that's something that as the systems have continued to put women in these situations where the promotion goes to one person and of a leadership team of say six people, maybe only one of them or two of them are women, where you've got men vying for all six spots, you've got women vying for one or two.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

And you know what? You tag on top of that, every family, I don't care who you are, every family has some sort of dysfunction, right? Sure. But when you grow up in any level of dysfunction, let alone extreme dysfunction, like I did, you learned really early on that love or attention or safety or approval, all of that feels conditional. Conditional and then it happens. Yes, yes, I love that. Conditional, limited, there's only so much to go around, right? We're trying to understand why we as women struggle in this area of what's this whole mean girl thing. Well, we can't spend a lifetime, whether it be through societal systems or dysfunction or in families or even in school or personal dynamics, any sort of situations where women are being told or shown through action that there's limited space, but then we're shocked when we start side-eyeing each other in the break room or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

We can't exactly no, we can't. It's a topic that I think we both have experienced personally. We've experienced competition and the scarcity mentality that comes along with everything that Elizabeth just talked about. And this is a topic that may be a little uncomfortable because you hear a lot about oh, women should support women, and and yes, absolutely, but that's not always the truth. Most NDAs keep people quiet. Ours does the opposite.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Around here, NDA means no dicks allowed.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Not men, the behaviors that keep women small.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

This is the podcast for women who are done shrinking and ready to rise. I'm Amanda Kachurka. And I'm Elizabeth Cipola. Welcome to NDA.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Women are biologically and socially wired toward connection, collaboration, communal survival. And we exist within systems that reward women for standing out individually instead of rising collectively.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

I completely agree. Let's take it back, right? So for those who are listening, some of you may know if I referenced it in other episodes, some of you may not, but I'm a mother, right? So I have two sons and a daughter. They're quite a bit older now. My oldest boys are 20, and then our baby, she is 18, about to graduate high school. But I even think back to when I was raising them when they were real little. When I think of the boys, they were fighting their little buddies in the corner or wrestling to see who's the strongest. And then my daughter with her friends, they were developing a little dance routine together. We, as women, I do believe we tend to genuinely ask for and want input and ideas. That is something that is definitely within us as natural collaborators.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

But then as we grow, and as we all know, there are plenty more spaces in the world in leadership and visible roles for men than there are for women. And so it forces this dynamic of women who are striving to be seen and heard in these different environments. And it doesn't always come naturally for them to bring other women with them because it's like, well, I had to fight really hard to get here. So once I get here, I've got to really sink my nails into it and make sure it doesn't go anywhere. And I definitely can't bring somebody else because what if they like her better than they like me? And then I'm out again. Oh, yeah. It's created this scarcity.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yeah. And that whole scarcity mindset. What is scarcity? It's survival mode. That's what it is. To break out of it, we basically have to reprogram in a way our nervous system that is conditioned to be in survival mode. And that scarcity mindset you just mentioned, it's not as easy as, oh, just switch your mindset. It's literally our operating system. And especially those who grew up in chaos. What happens? You become that adult woman that's listening to our podcast right now, who's wondering why. Why is it another woman's success makes me really anxious? Even if I genuinely like her, right? You and I talked about this. I'm gonna be super vulnerable here. You and I offline, as we are embarking upon a joint venture outside of this podcast together. We had some good conversation, the two of us, where we were even feeling anxious when we see other women who we adore and love and respect personally and professionally, when we see how much they are achieving success, not because we're upset with them or jealous, but just because we even struggle with. Well, what does that say about us and where we should be right now? Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

That's something that I've actually struggled with for most of my adult life. So if our listeners are familiar with the Clifton strengths assessment, one of my strengths is competition. I am incredibly competitive. If that wasn't evident by my conversations about my trivia team, I'm just, you know, blatantly stating it now, super competitive. Whenever I would see people or organizations, and this happened whether it was personal stuff, oh, somebody's being recognized for something that I think I should receive, or when I was working for another company, if there were other businesses that were competitors of ours that were getting opportunities that we weren't getting, it like really upset me.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

If you had to put in your own words, just in plain language, what about it? Hit the hardest or hit the deepest.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Why not me? Literally, that's what's playing through my head when I see those things happening to other people or other organizations being successful. Why wasn't that me? Hear me out on this.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

It's almost like if I'm losing out on that opportunity to help another person or achieve something more or whatever, then what does it say about me and my value as a human?

SPEAKER_00 8:16

The initial thought is why not me? Obviously, it goes deeper than that. But yes, I think you articulated it well, the thought process that's happening behind the scenes related to that statement.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

I am heavy in the season of this right now because as I just said several minutes ago, our daughter is graduating high school. Now, full transparency when our boys graduated, maybe it's because I knew I had one more kid coming up, but it didn't hit me as deeply as this is. I find myself really noticing to the point where, as I shared with you privately offline a couple days ago, I'm stepping away from social media because I don't know. It's really hitting me hard in terms of, I guess what we're calling this scarcity and comparison mindset, but I'm seeing it all over the place. We oh yeah, whose kid got into what school? What's your son or your daughter? What are they doing when they graduate? And it doesn't just stop there. I got together with my closest girlfriends a few weeks ago to take our one friend who's the first in our friendship circle to have an adult child get married this coming summer. So we took her shopping. Yes, so exciting. So we took her shopping just to pick out a mother of the groom dress. If I think about what we talked about, we don't just compare whose kid got into what school, but we compare bodies. We just tend to compare, right? Compare maybe motherhood choices. But meanwhile, if we're honest, half of us are crying in the target parking lot, pretending we're fine, right? True. Eating the three musketeers. Wait, I didn't say it out loud. And then hiding the wrapper before we get home.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

I think that you've hit on something important because this topic doesn't just apply to the workplace. I think it's a lot more obvious for my experience there, but it shows up just as much in social and personal settings with what you just listed, the competition around appearance, motherhood, relationships, lifestyle, assuming another woman's success is diminishing your own in some way. And I think social media has such a huge hand in that because people put only the best of what they're experiencing on social media. So you're not seeing the reality of the situation, you're seeing a very curated, performative side of things. Oh, that's yeah, of course you're gonna think you're inferior when you're only comparing yourself to every person that you're seeing looking their best on their best day because that's all they're posting. So yeah, that's gonna do a number on your mental state. I want to point out that healthy ambition is not what we're talking about here. We're talking about fear-based comparison, not healthy ambition. There's definitely a difference between the two. In your experience, when does that healthy ambition start to tow over the line into fear-based comparison? That transition, is that something you've ever been aware of?

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Comparison, when you think about it, it's actually a nervous system response before it's a deeper, let's call it, I don't know, character issue. I can't think of another way to describe it. So you just mentioned you're asking about fear-based. Well, sometimes, yeah, another woman shines and your body will immediately interpret it as danger. And it's not because you're an evil, awful, wretched woman who doesn't want another woman to succeed. It's because somewhere along the line, your brain learned if she wins, then maybe I'll disappear. So I'd say that's the line. You and I shared with our listeners several minutes ago how you and I had an offline conversation as we're doing our other venture, some of the things we were noticing within ourselves and some of the angst that was coming up. Well, I'd say a good rule of thumb for our listeners is just to really notice it. Notice that feeling, notice where you're carrying that feeling in your body, and then ask yourself what fear is this triggering in terms of why I'm afraid I might disappear or not be as important or special or the chosen one just because she wins. And just really getting curious. You know, we talk all the time on this podcast about getting curious. That's my response to your question.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Yeah, I like that. And this is something that I've started to become more aware of too, because ultimately I was getting to a point where I wasn't even celebrating my own wins anymore because I was so focused on, okay, yeah, I accomplished this thing, but there's somebody else that just got this award or was recognized this way, or this company just won this huge project and I should have won that project, or we should have won that project. I have to keep trying because I'm not good enough yet. I have to keep going. And so it's just the activation of this deep-seated insecurity that I had, and it was really hijacking my joy. Yeah. And you didn't feel like you deserved to experience or receive joy. And you probably forgot how. Oh, I definitely forgot how. And then you just become this like very angry, bitter. Yeah, I was not in a good place when that was like really affecting me. I think exactly what you were saying as far as how to get out of it. It's getting curious when you're starting to feel that feeling. And for me, a good cue is if I start asking myself, why isn't that me? That's a good cue for me to be like, oh no, you're slipping down that slope again.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Definitely. I love that. That's a really good cue. Something easy that I think every listener can relate to. That's a great cue to be like, oh, wait, that is something. Let's let's let's flag that. If I'm wondering, why not me? That definitely is. And again, just because this is fresh in my mind right now as we're preparing to send off our baby. I'm really seeing just how brutal mothers are to themselves. And I just got together with another mom who's sending off, it'll be her oldest, but uh sending off her oldest. And we've known each other for years. We just got together for lunch a few days ago. And mothers, we're brutal to ourselves. I mean, we freaking compare everything, even if it's silent in our minds, we're always comparing ourselves if if we're not careful, right? Whether it start from when they're babies, we compare who's breastfeeding, who's not. How long are you breastfeeding? Was breastfeeding easy for you to do or was it hard? Uh sports, activities, behavior, screen time. I don't know, but no matter what it is, I want our listeners who are moms or thinking about becoming mothers. I want you to know that I can officially tell younger moms, and I wish I could have had this wisdom when I was a new mom. None of us know what the hell we're doing. And the women who actually look the most put together are usually just one group text away from a nervous breakdown. So we need to show up for each other. I think the best gift we can give to each other is showing up as our real selves because women absolutely hurt other women sometimes. I've experienced it. Anyone who's a woman has experienced it. And if I'm being honest, anyone who's a woman has probably done it unintentionally to other women, or maybe sometimes intentionally also. Yeah. But the most female competition in my eyes, it's like that wounded survival behavior that masquerades as confidence. And yes, I feel like a lot of women, and I even think back to myself at different stages in my life. I think a lot of women become territorial because we had to fight like hell to get into rooms that were never fucking built for us to begin with. And instead of pulling more women in, we're trying to subconsciously protect our spot.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

The I suffered, so you should suffer too mentality. I this is a hot button issue for me. I'm like getting a little fired up here. Oh, there's a lot of hand gestures. You can't see them, but there's a lot of hand gestures happening right now.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

And you're for it. Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

This is actually something that I had a leader who I really got to know and respect earlier on in my career, not quite this plainly, but this is something she kind of said to me. I was feeling a little bit frustrated because there was this committee within an organization that I was part of that I wasn't asked to be on. I threw my hat in the ring to be considered and wasn't, and I was just feeling really rejected. And so I knew that she was on this committee and I was talking to her about it. And she made a comment that was like, Well, it took me a really long time to get where I am, and I had to pay my dues. That's always the phrase. I really had to pay my dues to get to this point. And you're just starting out in your career. So why would you expect the same things essentially? And I just I was like, wait, what? I but I but I work hard, yeah. I work hard though, and I have a lot to contribute. But you're telling me that I shouldn't be considered and I shouldn't be frustrated that I didn't get chosen for this opportunity because I haven't put in enough time. If the mindset is always, oh, you've got to pay your dues, you've got to put in the time until you get to a point where you'll be taken seriously. Think of how much perspective and how much diversity we're missing out on by not inviting some of those younger folks or less experienced folks to the table. That was the thing that really stuck with me when this woman made that comment. That I was like, but okay, sure, yes, I don't have the same experience you do. I don't have as much experience as you do, but I still have valuable experience and perspective to bring. So would it have been that hard for her to bring me along and say, hey, this is a different perspective than what we've got. These are some new ideas that we should be thinking about. And I think that gets us when we don't do that, it puts us into these really stale places where everything's always done the same because you've only got one type of perspective around the table.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yes. I used to think the way that I could heal myself, I always felt like I had to try to be the most powerful person, the most powerful woman, because often I was the only woman, right? But when we're trying to be powerful, it doesn't do anything. I'm less impressed by women who try to dominate rooms and where the power is, is by women who create room for other women. Someone else's power, it doesn't eliminate the possibility that someone else in that room is powerful too. My light is not evidence of someone else's lack of light, right? Correct.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

I like that a lot, actually. I think what you said earlier about it coming back to a threatened nervous system, aka a perceived threat to your safety, which is what's activating your nervous system, that doesn't want collaboration because that's basic human instinct is to protect self first. So when you're feeling that scarcity, when you're feeling that threat, you're wanting to close in and protect yourself.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

And especially for women with various layers of histories of experiencing any form of trauma, there's often deep conditioning around our worthiness and our desirability or approval or if we're being chosen. And that creates this unconscious sense of competition that we don't even realize we're carrying. Because when you think about it, when I see women fighting other women at any point in time, we're not fighting each other, we're actually fighting old wounds, right? So to me, I wouldn't say that healing that unhealthy sense of competition, right, with other women, it has to look like, oh, you're never gonna get triggered. Because you and I shared, we noticed we were getting triggered. Yes. But it's catching it faster. That's what healing looks like. What if we could just catch it faster and we could ask ourselves, oh shit, why did her success make me feel small? Because that's where growth and the ability to create more space to invite other women in to create a bigger sense of community. That's where it's gonna come from.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yeah, absolutely. And I think just to help people understand the feelings that this competition can generate. I want to go back to what I said earlier about for me, it's anytime I catch myself starting to think, why not me? That's a really good indicator to pause and say, Oh, okay, my insecurities are being activated. So I need to take this as a cue to separate admiration and inadequacy. Oh, that's a good one. Those need to exist separately, right? I can admire someone, and that doesn't need to make me feel inadequate.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yes. And for me, I'd say mine is let's just call it internal thought spiral that I can go down is why are they further ahead than me? I don't want to be behind. I should be further ahead. So that's mine. I guess if I were being honest with myself, it's almost like my nervous system is constantly looking for evidence that I'm failing somehow.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Gotcha. Yeah. Okay. So it comes back to those pause moments that we talk about so frequently. And when you're starting to recognize that something's feeling off, it's a good cue to just take a pause and check in with yourself. And I think the point that Elizabeth made earlier about noticing where you're holding that tension in your body. Did your shoulders come up? Are you clenching your teeth? Are you falling your hands into fists? That looks different for everybody. But just taking stock of, okay, where am I feeling this tension in my body? I'm starting to feel these not so great feelings. So am I noticing the physical effects? Of that too. And then using that as an opportunity to get curious and ask yourself some questions about why am I feeling this way? Where is this coming from? And rerouting that celebration for whatever situation is happening to someone else or for someone else and not equating that to a failure in yourself.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Yes, building on what you just said, when you catch yourself feeling that comparison with another woman and maybe thinking, why not me? Or what you said, Amanda, or thoughts that I struggle with. Am I am I falling behind? Try not to label yourself of, oh, I'm I'm being such a bitch, or I can't believe I'm being jealous. You know, don't be hard on yourself and don't be ashamed. Get curious. Yes, we prefer curiosity over shame here at NDA. Yes, we do. And you know what else we prefer? Just creating space where women can stop performing against each other and just start telling the truth. And the best way to do that is by being vulnerable yourself with the women in your life. Yes. I don't want to be the only woman at the table. How about we put two tables together? So the table's bigger exactly. Yes. Do that. That's a thing we should do for sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yes. So the goal here is celebration, appreciation, admiration, call it what you will, without default defensiveness. That's what we're working toward. Yes. Said differently, another woman's success is not evidence of your failure.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Absolutely not. And if you're interpreting it as that, that's self-awareness. Good for you for noticing it. And ask yourself, why is it that her success is making me feel small? So don't shame yourself, but ask yourself why? Get curious. Why is that making me feel small?

SPEAKER_00 23:42

So I think this is a good time to transition to our regular segment, shrink this.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

I have a personal one actually that I observed.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Okay, perfect. Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

So here's what I would say. This is, I guess, the theme of in my mindset today. It must be uh must be my daughter, I guess. This shrinking behavior is something that I've been noticing. So it's not, it's not in a boardroom or in any of my professional circles. It's actually in a group of 18-year-old girls, including my daughter and her friends. And and first, let me just say before I share this shrinking example, these girls are truly incredible. They're beautiful inside and out, they're smart, they're funny, they're kind and and they're lovely young women. And yet, what I've been noticing and observing and listening in on, I'm not trying to be a creeper or nosy, but they just chat when they're hanging together and I'm around, are conversations about being single. And it's been really fascinating to me because I keep hearing things like, I don't know, them feeling behind or badly because they don't have a boyfriend, or maybe hesitating to post a fun picture on their social media because they're single and they don't want to look stupid or be judged by other people who see their post. So basically, this shrinking behavior I'm talking about is what are they doing? They're questioning their worth. Not directly, but subtly, as if it's almost like if being chosen by a guy somehow validates their value. And sometimes maybe putting themselves out there in ways that don't really feel like them just to get attention or validation. And as I was listening, I keep thinking to myself, because this is top of mind due to our podcast and this this segment we do every week. This is shrinkage. Because somewhere along the way, these beautiful, confident, capable, amazing young women, they start quietly adjusting themselves. And it has nothing to do with who they are, but based on whether or not someone is choosing them. And so there they are. They're 18. Here I am. I'm knocking on the door on 50. They're already shrinking, they're already wondering if they're behind. They're already questioning how they show up, and they're already measuring themselves through someone else's attention. And I'm not saying this or sharing this example with judgment, because if we're being honest, most of us grown women listening to this podcast, we did the same thing. And a lot of us still do. We just have an older we have an older version of it and our storyline changed, like what you and I were saying. Am I successful enough? Maybe for some of our listeners, am I married? Do I have children? Do I look like I have it together in this perfectly curated post that I'm sharing? Will people think something's wrong with me? So different stage, same shrinkage. And and what I wish every young woman knew is being single, it's not a reflection of your worth, it's just your current relationship status. Period, the end.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Well said. I I definitely can relate to that. Mine's actually in a sort of similar vein. So I have recently been on a bit of a get healthier journey. So I've been working with a dietitian and trying to make sure that I'm fueling my body properly. And since you and I have stepped out on our own venture, I've had a lot easier time fitting workouts into my schedule. So I've been working out like six to seven days a week, which is great because I'm feeling so much better. And it's interesting because I've noticed a lot of people around me, my friends, people I follow on social media, are in a similar space where they're doing a lot of the same things. And you see a lot of photos from the gym and photos before and after photos. And I have a pretty long and winding history of issues with my weight and issues with my relationship with food and my relationship with moving my body. So that I've done extensive work on in therapy. And those thoughts creep in regularly for me. And just the other day, I saw, you know, somebody that I follow on social media posting a picture of themselves from the gym and talking about how much weight they'd lost. And I'm sitting here thinking, like, well, I don't weigh myself for a lot of reasons, most of them tied to mental health. So I don't, I don't think I've lost that much weight, though. I know I've lost some, but just like minimizing my successes and my accomplishments because I was seeing somebody else's successes and accomplishments being paraded in front of my face. And I did in that moment, I I caught myself slipping and I was like, wait a minute. No, you should be proud of yourself for this that you've made the changes that you have, that you're seeing the results that you're seeing. Just because they're not the same as somebody else's results doesn't make them invalid. So yes, it does. It it sneaks in, it's real crafty. It really it's Moira piping up again. It is Moira, but that's just it, right? It ties back to the insecurities and and your insecurities have a voice. And in my case, their voice is Moira. It's a constant effort for me to be aware of those things, but I did. I caught myself in that just the other day. And so I'm standing here saying, I'm proud of what I've accomplished, and I'm also proud of what my friend has accomplished. That's amazing. I know that journey is easy, no matter how or when you do it. So I'm happy for both of us. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

And you're giving yourself permission to be happy for both of you. Exactly. Gorgeous.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Just to kind of wrap up today's topic, like every episode, the whole purpose of this is to just bring awareness, never judgment, never criticism, never shame. Always just bringing awareness to the behaviors and asking you to pause and reflect on why you're feeling a certain way. Because when you bring that awareness, that creates space for choice. When you have the ability to choose, you have the ability to create change. And that's what we're all about here. It is what we're all about. Thank you for listening. We appreciate it. Make sure you subscribe so you never miss a future episode, which are released weekly. We are on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us on Instagram at NDA underscore pod. If you have shrinking behavior you would love to share with us, we would love to hear it. Happy to anonymize your shrinking behavior that you share. We're not going to put you on blast or anything. We definitely want to hear from you, hear your shrinking behaviors and so we can create this community of support and learning. That's what this is all about. So please send those our way.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

And please, this week, we challenge you to make a longer table and create space and put yourself out there to be a little bit more vulnerable, even just a little bit than what you normally would be. Yes. Love it.