Love on an Allowance

Financial abuse is one of the most common forms of abuse, but it's one that can often be tougher to recognize when you're in it.

Many women don't realize it's happening because it rarely starts with dramatic financial betrayal (secret credit cards, draining a bank account). Instead, it often looks like one person taking over the finances, discouraging questions, controlling access to money, requiring purchases to be justified, or slowly convincing someone they "just aren't good with money." Over time, those patterns don't only control finances, they erode confidence, independence, and trust in your own judgment.

In this episode, we're joined by Buffalo, NY-based Certified Divorce Financial Analyst® Gina Phillips to unpack what financial abuse really looks like, why so many capable, intelligent women don't recognize it until much later, and how financial control bridges over into emotional control.

Whether you're in a long-term relationship, preparing for marriage, navigating a marital transition, or simply want to build a healthier financial partnership, this conversation will help you recognize red flags, ask better questions, and take practical first steps toward reclaiming ownership of your financial life.

Because financial confidence isn't about becoming an expert. It's about knowing you deserve transparency, partnership, and the freedom to make informed choices about your own future.

*Please note that some of the scenarios/legalities Gina discusses in this episode are specific to New York state, so may not be applicable everywhere. We encourage you to consult with a CDFA who is based in your home state for the most relevant-to-you information. 

You can search a list of certified providers by location here: https://institutedfa.com/find-a-cdfa

Thank you for listening to NDA!

If this episode made you think, challenged a perspective, or helped you recognize a pattern in yourself, consider sharing it with someone else who might need the conversation.

You can connect with us on Instagram at @nda_pod, where we continue the discussion between episodes.

Until next time, notice the pattern. Then decide what happens next.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Our listeners are in for a treat today. We have a very special guest with us. Yes, I'm very excited. Miss Gina Phillips is joining us today. And I'm actually going to let Gina introduce herself and tell a little bit about who she is and what she does. But before Gina does that, I do just want to say that this topic, I think there are so many elements of what she's talking about today that are going to hit deeply and resonate with all of us. So I'm really, really excited. Gina, did you want to tell our listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

I'm Gina Phillips. I'm owner of Western New York Divorce Financial Advisors. And I'm a certified divorce financial analyst. And I know that's a big mouthful of stuff. But basically, what I do is I help people that are going through the marital transition process. Really?

SPEAKER_00 0:56

That's a nice soft way of calling it. I like that marital transition. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

I like that. Right. Because it is a process. You know, you have to make that first decision. You have to go and start it, and then you're in the midst of it. And then when it's over, there's a new reality for you. So I really like to help guide. I work primarily with women, but I do work with gentlemen too, to really make sure they have a clear understanding of their finances during this whole process. I myself personally went through this many years ago. I've I'm coming up to almost 18 years when I started it, which is unbelievable. And my divorce unfortunately took a long time. So that's why I want to help people to try to get through this process and really understand their numbers in a quicker, gentler way. So they're making informed decisions.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Love it. And today, Gina is here to talk with us about financial abuse. When we hear the words financial abuse, I think a lot of times our brains immediately picture someone, I don't know, hiding credit cards or draining bank accounts. And what it really is are hundreds of tiny little moments where our confidence can get chipped away until we truly believe we can't survive on our own. So, Gina, we're excited to have you here to talk with us about that today. Most NDAs keep people quiet. Ours does the opposite. Around here, NDA means no dicks allowed. Not men, the behaviors that keep women small. This is the podcast for women who are done shrinking and ready to rise. I'm Amanda Kachurka. And I'm Elizabeth Cipola. Welcome to NDA.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

I think the first thing that we want to talk about is setting the stage for the topic of financial abuse. I think to Elizabeth's point just a second ago, if we think about financial abuse, it's more from the kind of grand scale things that you think of. But a lot of times there are much smaller signs or situations that happen that may be harder to recognize. So I'd love to hear from you a little bit about what are some of those smaller signs that may not be as obvious?

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Well, I think one of the things is like when you're in a relationship together, you divide activities. One does the shopping, one does the lawn, one does the things. And I think if you have one spouse really controlling all the money, not really talking about it, and you're not privy to what's going on, even on a quarterly basis, to see where is our money going? What are our income? What are our expenses? So it could start off subtly, like, well, I want to take something off your plate. So let me do all the bills, let me take care of it all. I'm good at it. I know what I'm doing. Maybe they have a background in it, maybe they are in the financial realm or something like that. It could be as subtle as that. Like, oh, don't worry about the taxes. I'll take care of them. And then you don't really see the taxes. So you don't really see what's on that tax statement. And I know a lot of people don't understand the nitty-gritty and all the little details, but you don't want to sign a document unless you're looking at it. And you really want to make sure that, you know, where does your money go? A lot of people have that question now. Like, my salary goes in the checking account and it's gone. Like, oh no, we can't afford to go on that trip. Or no, I don't think you should buy a new pair of shoes, or we need a new car. And you're like, well, wait a second, I make good money. Where is it all going to? And you're not seeing that. And I think those are some of the simple things that you just get caught in the everyday that you don't realize that they're happening.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

I know you've worked with women and men from every walk of life. And I'm just curious, is there a common misconception you hear over and over that immediately tells you they don't realize what's happening yet?

SPEAKER_02 4:56

No, I think by the time they get to me, they're to the point where I can't do this anymore. I get the hammy downs, I get the old phones, and then they sit down with them and they're like, well, we're worth millions of dollars, and you're telling me not to go buy a new phone. Sometimes it does happen where they'll come to me and they just feel that maybe I don't understand it. So they maybe have shrunk a little about what they're capable of doing. I think a lot of times that's what happens. Maybe when they were in the household with their family, their father controlled the money. So they saw that dynamic and mom was a stay-at-home mom. I think in a lot of cases, I've seen those circumstances too, where there's been more of a homemaker situation too, where they haven't worked and they felt that they couldn't ask about it.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

You saying that just made me think of something because even if it is a homemaker situation where they don't earn a paycheck, so to speak, they're still in that marriage dividing responsibilities. The husband handles some things, the wife handles other things, and that's normal. I would imagine if I sat down with my spouse and I said, Hey, can you show me every account or the login or tell me how much we have in this account or that, would they blink? Because if they wouldn't blink to that, then I would imagine that's an indication of partnership, kind of like us, Amanda, in this business. Amanda handles the finances, the money. But if I were to ask her a question about it to show me something, I know and I trust that Amanda wouldn't blink or get kind of sheepish or try to skirt around it. So control feels different than that, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Yeah. I say at least talk. Some people sit down once a week and do their bills together. Some people do it on a monthly or a quarter, but at least annually at the minimum. You should know where everything is, how much left on the mortgage. Do we pay off our credit cards monthly? Do we carry a debt? What's the car payment? God forbid, one of you get in an accident or something. You've got to pay those bills. You've got to do those things. If you're in a circumstance where you're not sure if you're being manipulated or controlled by the finances, you can kind of approach it in that way. If you approach it in that way and you get a lot of like kickback and feedback, now you need to really take stock and see how I can make decisions based on what I know our finances are. How can I find those things out without pressing the topic with my partner?

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Got it. So, what would you say are the impacts on someone's sense of self when they're dealing with a financially controlling or abusive situation?

SPEAKER_02 7:30

It's a scarcity feeling. You want to be able to go to the grocery store and buy groceries and not worried about it, or go out to dinner with your friends and not be questioned, oh my God, you paid this amount for a cocktail. It makes you feel less than when women come to me that have been in this situation. Well, they say, Oh, I can't believe I let it get this far. And I said, No, you're coming to me now. So I'm gonna help educate you so that you can take this experience and learn from it and be financially stable in the future.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

You're taking the shame away from them, right? You're having them reframe their thinking, like, okay, you're with me now, and and let's work together to work from here. Plenty of us are women who run departments, build businesses, lead teams, raise families, but yet we tell ourselves, I don't understand money. And when I even think of myself, it's like, really, do I not understand money? Or has someone convinced me of that? That's what I just want to point out is there are even things that can happen earlier in life before we get into romantic relationships or marriages that have already built that narrative in our mind of us believing that we don't understand money. And I'm just curious, could you share with us maybe what is one of the biggest transformations that you've seen where you watch someone evolve and change as they begin to be empowered to understand their finances?

SPEAKER_02 8:54

There was one client a few years back that she was so nervous, even just trying to get copies of the documentation. And she was in a very controlling, not just financially abusive, but narcissistic relationship. And I don't like to throw that word around, but I've seen it a lot. And she just didn't know. She didn't know what her husband was doing, was putting everything in retirement and in their house, and there was no cash and they made a lot of money. And she didn't know the difference of just little things, money market, Roth IRA, regular IRA. And I think that in those circumstances, sometimes I really need to take it a step back and just take all the information they give me. And when I'm helping them in the divorce situation, I do a net worth statement. If it's post-divorce, I'll do a cash flow. So I'm putting in on a monthly basis what's your income? What are you expending your expenses on? And I think that for me, knowing what I can afford or can't afford to do in a month gives me peace of mind. That's just me. Some people just put it aside. Well, I'll think about that tomorrow. And let's not talk about it now, Gina, because it makes me anxious. But not knowing to me makes me more anxious. And I think once you get that power, you hit you build your confidence. It might be that little thing that makes you take care of yourself first.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Right. We've used the word confidence a lot. And and Elizabeth and I have talked about confidence quite a bit, actually, over the course of several episodes. And confidence ultimately comes from self-trust. And I think the other component of this is that when you're led to believe over time that you can't manage money, you can't be trusted with money, you're gonna overspend. So here's an allowance. When you're given that message so much over time, you start to believe it and you start to recognize in yourself, oh, I can't be trusted with money. So yes, they better manage it for me because we would end up in bankruptcy if I managed our money. It can get that extreme in your thought process, and it really does, it erodes your ability to trust yourself and trust your own intuition, and that spreads into other areas of your life. So it becomes this kind of toxic sludge of lack of self-trust. It's really sad, heartbreaking, actually.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

It is, it's limiting their beliefs, it's it's making them smaller. And I think that when people feel stuck in that circumstance or that relationship, how am I gonna get out? Especially if there's kids. What if I'm a stay-at-home mom? And I think that people think everything's good because they're being taken care of. They might look from the outside that they got the nice house, the nice cars, and they're really maxed out. And they might not know. I remember years ago when my son was little, somebody in his taekwondo class, the husband died suddenly, and she did not know there was a second mortgage. So it's not just people that are going through divorce, it could be a widow situation or something like that. And I really think the most important thing is that when you're in a partnership and your funds are commingled together, that you have this conversation. You might not know every little detail, you might know that the investments are with Raymond James, but you might not know that you're in five stocks, bond equity, and that. And that's fine because that's their expertise. And when I was married, my former husband was all in that world. He was a commercial mortgage broker. So I did the day-to-day finances and I would go with them to the meetings, but did I understand percentages here and that? But after my divorce, did I have to understand that? Absolutely. So I think that's the thing that as you evolve, you really need to make sure that, especially as you get older, you have a true picture of what's going on in your finances.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

You've given great things for our listeners to think about how important it is to have those conversations. Let's step back a moment, though, because our listeners hear you. And I'm sure many of them are thinking, okay, great, but I'm not going to because I'm afraid. And fear is something we talk about a lot on this podcast. And fear is very fascinating because it lies to us so convincingly. Fear never tells us, oh, here's one possible outcome, but instead it says, this is going to happen. Like it's already written in the future. So I'm just curious, so that maybe some of our listeners can hear your response in what might be going through their mind related to their fears about having these conversations. In your work, what fear, Gina, keeps women stuck longer than almost anything else?

SPEAKER_02 13:28

I think the fear of not having the lifestyle sometimes, especially if they're in a high net worth circumstance. Well, I'm not going to be able to go to the country club. I'm not going to be able to do this. How am I going to afford this car? And also they might be afraid of their spouse. They're afraid of how their spouse is going to react to them asking those questions. And it's it's funny because even in the 80s, women couldn't even get loans for their own businesses and mortgage without somebody signing for them. And we've come such a long way. And I think that there's still that belief that they can't do it on their own. And I think that you have to determine is the fear more important to you than your own self-worth? You take it baby steps. Oh, they go, Oh my God, this is so overwhelming. And I'll say, okay, well, take 20 minutes and see what you can gather in the office of the financial document. Or get your current credit card statement if you can and look at that. And just wrap your head around it and do it in little chunks. And maybe it won't be as scary. I think that when we break it down a little at a time, it's not as overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Right. Well, when a woman does finally have the conversation, I'm just curious from your perspective and all the people you've worked with, what is the fear they discover wasn't even actually true to begin with?

SPEAKER_02 14:46

I think that they couldn't handle it on their own. I use myself as an example. I was a stay-at-home mom. I had worked in the accounting world, but I had been a stay-at-home mom for seven and a half years. My son was 10. And the fear of like, oh my God, I haven't worked in seven years. What am I gonna do? We're in this big house. We want him to go to the school district. And I for six months I had that attorney's number in my pocket, just that fear. And then I just said, you know what? I can't do this anymore. I'm losing myself. I don't think my son will look at me in 20 years and think of me the same way if I don't do this for myself. And I think only you will know that instinct to take one baby step. It might just be listening to a podcast like this, or what do I spend my money on? Or it might just be taking one thing at a time. Well, let's look at the checking account for two weeks and see what we're doing, or for the credit card. And I think if you break it down in smaller pieces, it'll help you realize well, wait a second. Maybe there's something on there that you're not even using. Maybe there's a gym membership that you should have canceled years ago, or streaming, or you're paying for two streaming services, or sometimes those just those little things you catch gives you the confidence to move on to the next step. In the last month, I've met with three different women married well over 34 years, 30 years plus, and they're all in similar situations. They don't really know everything, they're getting near their retirement age now. They don't want to like not be able to just go out and buy a coffee and be questioned. They're taking the baby steps to see, doing those little things. And then it might be that you meet with the CPA that does your taxes and ask questions or your financial planner. If your name is on any of the accounts, you're entitled to that documentation and information. If you're on the mortgage, you should be able to call. When you're ready to take that step, just because you talk to a lawyer or somebody like me doesn't mean you're gonna start the whole leaving and divorce process. It might just mean to educate you. And I have done that with some people. I remember right before the pandemic, I helped a woman just kind of really look at her numbers to see what she wanted to do. And I think that's the first step, is one little thing. But if you're ready to take that next step, get the team you need. I think uh also be a mental health professional is very important to bounce it off because they can see the circumstance you're in and make sure you're safe. I think that's the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Right. Are there any maybe signs that might go under the radar a little bit that our listeners could benefit from knowing that would indicate to them maybe I am in a financially abusive situation or relationship and I didn't even know it? You don't really see the bank accounts, you don't really see the taxes.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Maybe you're on an allowance. I mean, if you if you're on an allowance because you're in a financial difficult situation, that's not what I'm saying. Or, oh, don't worry about that. You can run credit check on yourself. Make sure there's not a lot of credit card debt with your name on it, too. Did you close that account out when you got married? Or did you ever have one that's just in your name? I know a lot of people they'll lose their spouse in their 80s and they don't have a credit card or a car in their name or things like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Right. What about couples that are getting to the point of marriage, so aren't married yet, but are looking at merging finances? I think it's pretty obvious to me, at least based on what you've said, that if that person is saying, Oh, we'll just put my name on the bank account, we'll just put my name on the mortgage, those are maybe some red flags that you need to be mindful of. But are there other recommendations that you would have for those who are coming into a marriage or preparing for a marriage as they, you know, look at kind of combining their finances?

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Right. And I think you need to be realistic about it because sometimes there's somebody that's making three times as much. So if somebody is making 40,000 and somebody's making a hundred thousand, they're not going to be able to contribute the same amount. Sure. You know, I think that if you are commingling your funds in any type of a relationship, you really need to outline what that looks like. I have friends that have been divorced for a while and they don't know what to do. They don't want to sell their house, they don't want to have to be so financially dependent. But I think that when you start that type of relationship, be very upfront and say, okay, how are we doing this? Are we doing it percentage-wise? You make 70% and I make 30%. And that's what we're gonna put in a joint account to pay our bills, and we're still gonna have our separate money. If you're getting married, print your 401k statement or your retirement assets the day before you get married. Keep it in a very separate spot. And if you inherit any money, keep that separate. As long as you don't commingle it into a joint bank account, that is considered separate. Once you commingle it and put it in together, and I'm not saying don't remodel the kitchen because your grandma left you 100,000, but put 20,000 and keep 80 separate. That's what I'm saying. Right. And then even when one person has bought a house and then the other person moves in, is the house going to stay in that name? Have an outline of how you're gonna handle that circumstance. If you outline it when you're commingling funds, because a lot of times, even though my ex-husband was very financially successful, our philosophy on money was completely different and that hurt our relationship. Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

So much good stuff here, Gina. I'd like to transition over to our shrink this segment where we talk about behaviors that we exhibit or that we witness that that keep women small. So, Gina, as the guest, it's customary for us to allow you to share your shrinking behavior first. So, do you have a shrinking behavior you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah, I have a big tribe of friends. Okay. And in the last few years, I became really close with them. Every time I went out with them, it didn't feel right. It didn't feel like a relationship that was really putting both of our needs ahead of time. And I unfortunately had to end that friendship. But before I ended it, I realized I felt like I did in my marriage, where I couldn't really speak my voice, say what was important to me, validate my feelings. And I think at all stages of our lives, we have to know when to transition and to be around the people that give us energy and bring out the best at us. You get that knot in your stomach. I'm like, you know what? Right. And I think a lot of us ignore those cues that our body gives us. I did this recently and I feel so good. And it's not that I dislike that person, I just can't be around their energy. Sure. Your relationship wasn't serving you. I've done that in the course of my life. I'm in my late 50s now. So I've had friends that during periods of my life, and I have friends that I've been friends with for 18, 20 years too. So I think you just have to see who brings you up and make sure you keep those people around you. Right. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Elizabeth, do you have one you want to share?

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Sure. We're building our business, Amanda and I, outside of this podcast, and we've been busily building it. And that means that we've had to become a lot. More intentional with our spending. So, what do I mean by that? What I mean by that is we walked away from a steady paycheck. You walk away from something predictable when you build your own business. So you take a bet on yourself. Well, what that means is that Botox has gotten cut out of my life. And I've been thinking about it because my first thought months ago wasn't good for you. You're investing in your business. Instead, it was, well, I guess people are gonna get to experience my forehead in high definition. The shrinking is immediately tying a piece of my confidence to something cosmetic. And for me, that's wild because I've spent years coaching and helping other women to understand that our worth isn't tied to our appearance, but yet apparently I needed that reminder to coach myself. I caught myself wondering if people would somehow take me less seriously as a professional in this space just because I looked older. And then I thought to myself, hold the phone. I would never, ever, ever in a million years think that about another woman. So why am I applying that rule to myself? So that would be my real life example.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

It's truly amazing the narratives that we run on ourselves that we would never in a million years run on somebody else. To wrap up today's episode, Gina, I'd love to get some closing thoughts from you on what you would say to a woman who is listening to this episode right now and she's recognizing herself in some of the things that you've said, but is feeling overwhelmed about where to start. What are the immediate steps that she could take?

SPEAKER_02 23:47

I think education. Take a step back. Call somebody like me who's local to your state. There's a lot of CDFAs out there. We have a national organization by address. Maybe you have a friend that you could trust that really does know finances and you can not confide everything, but just as a sounding board. I think the biggest thing is take it in little steps. All of us as women get overwhelmed. We try to do it all at once. It's okay to make a plan and set goals and take it one step at a time.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Absolutely. We talk a lot about, we strive for one percent different, one percent better tomorrow than we did today. So I think baby steps, chef's kiss, beautiful advice. So, Gina, we thank you so much for being willing to share your time with us today and to share some incredible advice with our listeners. I know this is a topic that can be really scary and overwhelming. And I think you've done a great job at breaking it down into more bite-sized pieces that hopefully if someone's listening to this and recognizes themselves in this situation, that they can start to take some steps to get into a more positive place. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Thank you to our listeners. We always appreciate you. Of course, as we've said before, if you have shrinking behavior that you'd like to share, if you have questions, if you have ideas for future podcast episodes, please send us a message on Instagram. We are at NDA underscore pod. We would love to hear from you. Also be sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, wherever you get your podcasts. And just a closing thought for you we're not expecting you to become a financial expert. The goal is to just start to reclaim enough confidence to believe that you deserve choices. You deserve options.