Episode 20: Interview with Psychologist Dr. Deniz- The body- the bridge to remembering

My first interview on Breaking the Cycle with @drdenizpsyd 

We talk about growing up in a dysfunctional family. How our bodies remember what our mind forgot, childhood sexual abuse, and medicine work 

Her website: www.drdeniz.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to Breaking the Cycle. This is my very first episode with a guest speaker. I am working right now with her. I'm talking to Dr. Denise. Dr. Denise is a psychologist I've been following for probably close to two years on Instagram. And I just love her authenticity and her method of connecting with her audience on social media. And I know that she has a lot to share about growing up in a dysfunctional family. And then I also wanted to understand what got her into the work that she is in and then working with medicine, which she's been recently talking about. So let's get into it. Denise, first, Dr. Denise, welcome to my podcast. I want to say, like I said, I adore your work and I'm just so honored for you to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

You're so welcome. So talk to me a little bit about the family dynamics that you grew up in.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yeah. The family dynamics that I grew up in, of course, just for anyone listening, like these were not things that I could see at the time. And I I always want to make a point to say that because I don't think it was until you know there was really enough safety for me, both internally and like in my environment, for me to be able to actually look back and see where things weren't just right. Um, and when you grow up in dysfunction, like it's everything's so normalized. It's the air you breathe, it's the water you swim in, you just can't see it. Um, but the dynamics that I grew up in were very much kind of like a narcissistic structure of a family system, um, where there was a lot of prioritization on image, a lot of patterns of avoidance and sweeping things under the rug. And um, you know, the roles that become very defined and clear in a family that's really dysfunctional, where there's, you know, potentially a family member or a sibling that's um kind of more elevated as a golden child, and one that tends to be more, you know, carrying the brunt of things as a scapegoat. Um, and and that was me. I was always the truth teller. I was always the one who stepped back and observed and asked questions, uh, which for anyone who's been in a relationship or a system like that, like you know that's a problem. Um, because this is the thing with these family systems, and you know, mine is no exception. Um, somebody who sees truth or names a truth out loud is very much a threat to a system that wants to stay the same and wants to avoid having to make changes or take any sort of accountability. Um, so in my family, there was a lot of avoidance, a lot of denial, um, blame, and shame. And that was something that I heavily internalized as a child, like the level of shame I can look back now and have memories of being a very young child and remember carrying this sense of like there's something wrong with me or there's something bad about me. Um, there's other layers of that to my experience with other abuse that I experienced in the context of all that dysfunction. But um, you know, the seeds of that get planted so early on before you have a chance to get to know who you are, that that shame for me became so fused with who I was really early.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

So, what would happen when you started questioning things and the dynamics of the family?

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Um you know, on the mild end, it would be things like being laughed at or being shamed, um, invalidated, all the way to like extreme outright denial for certain things. Um and looking back now, things that had been addressed and denied, I think were things that I very deeply buried in my body and just like closed so many doors until I was much older and ready and able to confront some of these things, but not just confront them, but like trust my own inner knowing. And this is why I talk so much about connecting with the body, because this this is where our intelligence and our information sit, is is in what the body uh holds. And of course, the body's not just like this storage site for trauma, it holds so many other gifts and wonderful things. Um but growing up in a family like that, and for many people, it disconnects you from yourself, but on such a deep visceral level, it disconnects you from your body, from your sensations. Um, when someone's denying, attacking, turning things around on you, you know, you you learn that it's not safe to have your own feelings or that your feelings are incorrect in some way. Um, so the only way to like stay connected and survive that is to bypass or disconnect from what your body's signaling to you. And I want to remind people like, if that's something you're still struggling with, um, you know, we want to open so much space for compassion because that was a brilliant way to survive. I can look back on that now, um, as frustrating as it was to uncover things later in my life, like it was a brilliant way to survive, to tuck something away until there was enough safety much later. But the healing process is so much about coming back into the body, coming back to relationship with what's here and what's been waiting for us.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Definitely. When would you say that you knew that you wanted to start working on yourself and what developed into you getting your doctorate degree?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Yeah, um, I think, you know, from a younger age, you know, once we start talking about school and what are you going to do when you grow up, I was always fascinated by human behavior. Um, and I don't think I had the awareness at the time of what was driving that, you know, being the observer and kind of the one who could see all these patterns in the family. I can see now that was so much of what drove it. But I really believe there was also um such an intelligent part of me guiding me into this profession and giving me access to knowledge and resources that I would not have accessed otherwise. And those were things that I would need to really dive into this deep work later, you know, in my 30s after I became a mother to go head first into some really difficult traumas. Um, so in my mind at the time, I was just fascinated by human behavior. You know, I came from a multicultural family and could see all these different modes of communication and discipline and all sorts of layers that are really valid and really important. Um, but at the end of the day, I believe this was a profession some part of me chose so that I could heal and use so much of that experience and that knowledge and those two things together is the professional knowledge and the lived experience to to share a story and to be able to help people sort of from the inside out.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

And how was that for your family for you to go into this industry? What was that like for them?

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Well, coming from a I have one of my parents is an immigrant parent, so such an emphasis on education and achievement in that way, and of course, understandable because those for so many immigrant families, as you know, like these are the things that unlock um and open up doorways. So I think there was a lot of pride in the accomplishment aspect of it. Um, I don't think there's an actual understanding of it because um, you know, that generation does not attend therapy typically. Um, so there's there's a respect for it as a profession, but in terms of the actual process, I don't think there's much awareness of it, um, or even awareness of like what that involved me examining or looking at until there was some confrontation in my family um around some particular uh abuses much later on.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

And when was that?

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Um that was just a couple years ago, actually. Okay. So uh you know, being someone who names truth and names patterns, you and anyone listening who relates to it like knows that that is a heavy, heavy burden to sort of be the spokesperson for the family.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Um, but that was so much part of my healing and part of kind of generational healing and breaking cycles is like this stops here, right? Like we're we're not going to look away from these things or pretend certain things didn't happen or are still happening. Um, we are gonna name it for what it is. And that was one of the scariest things that I had ever done. Um and you know, of course, in hindsight, I can reflect on why it was so scary. It's like all these younger parts of me still fearing for what would happen if I spoke truth in a system that wasn't open to it or willing to hear it or look at it. And like as kids, those consequences are so real and so different than when we're adults and we have these skills and capacities and space and all sorts of things. Um, so going through that process was extremely difficult, you know, it's sort of like a bomb going off in the family. Um, but in my mind, it was also like, you know, we burned out a forest and new growth can happen. And that's what I felt like I was doing. It wasn't to hurt someone, it wasn't to retaliate, it wasn't coming from a place of anger. Of course, I had anger, but that wasn't the intention behind it. It was really so that there could actually be repair and like let's bring everything that's been in the dark and under the surface, like let's bring it out and put it all on the table so we can actually have conversations that have been needing to happen for decades.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Okay. You said it was kind of like a bomb going off. Was there denial? Was there acceptance?

SPEAKER_00 10:55

What was the um there was uh acceptance, um which parts of me did not expect. I was, you know, the younger of me was like all prepared for the denial that had been in the past, but um there was some really healing pieces of it in terms of a speaking invalidation around generational patterns with certain things that hadn't been named before. And um then, of course, on the other hand, you see the repetition of patterns that have been there the whole time. And you know, I think that's a tricky place for survivors when you speak up about something, is there's of course parts of us that hope things will be different. We want change and we're speaking up for change and repair. And you know, I I've talked about this a lot, like people who want relationships with family members or you know, it could be partners or whoever it might be, like you don't go through the pain and hassle of addressing things unless those relationships are important to you, right? You would just cut someone off. Um, so for me, as those conversations happened and you know, starting to spot some of those familiar dynamics, it was this balancing act of like, where is it important for me to speak truth? Not only to kind of break cycles, but like the part, the the little me who like never had a voice to speak certain things. Um, and then realistically, like, where is it that I'm hoping change will happen, but what's actually possible here? And I think for so many people that pans out differently, depending on what the circumstances are, um, depending on certain people's capacities, and depending on what it is that's still happening in your family, because there is a difference in our felt experience, our visceral experience of harm having happened in the past versus um harm that also continues in the present. So um, you know, unexpected things that you don't plan to grow through in terms of using your voice and um finding certain boundaries that you didn't anticipate, um healing that happens in your body, uh, emotions that you didn't know were there, or the depth of them you didn't know were there. Like this was all part of the process for me, but um through so much pain, through so much anxiety and anticipation of all these conversations that played out over many, many months, right? These are not like one-time conversations, um, but it was such a process, has been, continues to be a process of me reconnecting to me. It's almost like, you know, I use this metaphor especially with um sexual abuse. It's almost like unplugging something from its power source. Um, the way that those experiences, those traumas disconnect us from ourselves and our bodies in particular. Going through the healing process of this has felt like I got my plugged back into my power source and like I have kind of come back into contact with who I am and the power that I hold in my body and the gifts that I hold in my body, you know, sitting right next to all those wounds as well.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Wow. Um, I have several questions. First of all, was there a time where any of your family entered therapy? Was there a time where you did therapy together? What was that like? Well, I want to start there.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah, um, the offer was always on the table for someone to join in my therapy.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Um when did your therapy begin? I should say, also.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

I mean, I've had I've been in therapy over the years, just you know, sort of different modalities, different clinicians, but um around this was you know, it had been a couple years that I was with this particular therapist working around these things. Um, I have a sister who's close in my close to my age, and um I'm so grateful that she was such a support through this, which I know is not always the case for people when they're looking at family dysfunction, especially if you've had roles that kind of conflicted with each other. Um, but I think, you know, I I won't speak on her behalf, but I think there's uh something beautiful that happened in our generation, like this commitment to breaking cycles, that I'm really grateful she's um, you know, we walk alongside each other in in so many of these things. Um, other people attempted, but you know, I say this to my clients a lot of the time. Just because someone goes into therapy doesn't mean something's going to change. And I think, you know, all of us, we have this wish that therapy and you know, healing modalities are this sort of like golden ticket to something changing. But when you actually think about what capacities are required for someone to do good work, they have to be willing to self-reflect, they have to be willing to take the perspective of another person. Um, there has to be empathy and a willingness to take some accountability. And if those things aren't there, it doesn't matter what therapist you're sitting in front of. Um, you cannot force someone to examine themselves or to heal. So that can be really painful to realize because I think the idea of like, I got them to therapy is like, it feels monumentous. And it can be, right? Especially to break down like any cultural or generational barriers around that. Um but I think for so many of us who are healing from whether it's sexual abuse or family dysfunction or the two paired together, there comes a point, or there came a point for me in my healing where I recognized that my healing could not be contingent upon anyone else changing. Because I was literally keeping myself like on the fishing hook with someone else who was not willing or able to make those changes. And that involves a lot of grief. Sometimes it involves anger, but there's such a freedom in recognizing that my healing is not dependent on you.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

And I think that's ultimately, you know, what so much of our healing is about. It is um it's freedom. It's freedom from the roles that we played, freedom from the ways that we had to survive, freedom from old patterns and memories. Um, and in that freedom, it's like you're right there, like who you are is right there.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Totally. That's so beautiful. Um, so curious too, because we talked about medicine and you talked about medicine recently in your on your page. So I'm curious what got you interested initially in medicine and when did your journey with the medicine begin?

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Yeah. Um I had been in therapy for some time, as I had mentioned, and I had an unknown abuse at age 17 that I was really looking to address that had surfaced intensely after I had my second child. Um, because kids have a way of bringing things to the surface for us. Um and I had done some really wonderful work around that and felt a lot of resolution, but there was almost this feeling of like there was still something I couldn't get to, and there were still some symptoms that were surfacing that didn't make sense given the work that I had done. And that paired with this kind of nodding sense that I had had as a child, that something had happened to me, just continued to escalate and escalate and escalate. And um it got to a point, which I think many people get to this point, where like the discomfort uh becomes so great that you are willing to explore new options. Um, I was ever someone who was like interested in medicine work or um knew extensively much about it. It's it's not something psychologists when I was in school were it wasn't on the table in terms of discussions of an education. Um, but I had actually read a book by the incredible Kimberly Shannon Murphy called Glimmer. And Kimberly has an incredible, incredible survival story of sexual abuse and family dysfunction. And she shared about her medicine work towards the end of her book. And I remember sitting there reading her book, and something just pinged in me that I was like, I need to do this. Like something in me was calling me towards that. Um and this also was, you know, a couple years back. Uh and it was sitting there, it was just right there waiting for me. Um and it was, I, you know, I can look back now and see all the signals, emotional signals, physical signals that my body was sending me, you know, this intelligence that we talk about. It's like everything in me was guiding me and pushing me towards there's something here for you to see. Um, but I had to be ready. And I was at such a point of discomfort that I was like, I gotta, I gotta do this, I have to try something. Um, and was shook by what arose. Um, and at the same time felt such relief because there was some part of me that always knew something was there, and some part of me that could sense like there was just like this little one in me, like just wanted me to see. Um, she just needed a witness in in all of this. Um, and that, you know, the start of that really opened so, so many doors for me.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Wow, um I'm getting like goosebumps on the back of my head right now when you're talking about it. Um, so first you knew something happened to you at 17, and you felt possibly something could have happened to you earlier on, but you really didn't know what it was. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 21:31

I had no memory, nothing to go on, just a literally just a felt sense. Um and the way that my memories came through, I you know, I want to talk a bit about that because one, it was very unusual. Um, and I say that as a psychologist who works in trauma, um, that I wasn't prepared for, but also again, looking back, I can see the importance of how how and why. Came through the way it did. Um, so my memories came back as purely somatic. Um, you know, I called them body memories because my body would literally reenact the things that had happened. Um, no images, couldn't see anything, couldn't smell anything, like no, no details except for movement. It was like this procedural memory that had gotten stored in my body. Um and I had so many, a million questions that came up because I there was no visual memory, but there was a clear story and narrative that my body was showing me over and over and over. And um what I discovered through that process was like this deep trust and surrender in my body, um, this respect for my body and what it had helped, how it waited and until there was enough safety and support. Um, so it really brought me in such a deeper relationship and trust with my body. Um and it emerged in layers, right? Over over time, as I was able to stay with it and process it and not try to find certainty. It's like at some point, I just had to sort of put my hands up and allow things to move through me. Um and as I did that, more trust emerged, more safety emerged. I did start getting some visual memories, and over time it became clear this sort of who, what, when. Um, and I know now with certainty that had all that been dumped on me at one time, I would not have been able to process it. I couldn't metabolize it. And, you know, having worked in trauma for years prior to that, I of course understood the wisdom of the body, talked about the wisdom and intelligence of the body. But for me, this opened up a whole new layer of what that means in terms of seeing how my body um processed it and really paced it out for me. Like there was such trust that if I'm not seeing something, it's because I'm not meant to yet. Or my my system knows that I can't process it. And if there's something that I do need to see for my healing, it's going to come. Um, and that, you know, put me in such a different position than where most survivors are, where like the way that we survive is controlling so many things around us. Um, so that was a really significant shift for me.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Okay. So that's first medicine work. You saw you felt one thing. And then as the medicine, as you went back to the medicine, it kind of just was opening up things and like you said, toward the most recent with visuals that were happening. So how how long was this process for you?

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah. Um, yeah, so the the initial memories opened in the medicine. And for me, you know, I've I've talked about this on social media, like the experience was that the door didn't close after that. Like the medicine had opened a door for me that I basically spent the next year and a half walking through of body memories. Um, and that was absolutely one of the hardest periods of my life. Um, I had to scale back my practice. Um, I'm a mom to two little boys. Um, you know, being able to mother and to partner and take care of a home in my practice was incredibly, incredibly difficult while I was trying to metabolize all of this. Um, but it was about a year and a half of consistent memories coming through once to twice a week. Um, so it really took me out.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Wow. And with the memories coming, was that more of you just like sitting in meditation when you were sleeping? When were the memories actually coming to you?

SPEAKER_00 25:38

A great question. Um what I would realize over time is I could feel an energy building in my body. It's almost the feeling of like, if you've had too much coffee and you get sort of that jittery, anxious feeling. For me, I started to understand that was my body's way of telling me, like, there's something that needs to move in you. So um sometimes it would come during meditation when I was like, you know, just being in stillness with my body. Um, but sometimes I could feel it building while I was doing something else. And it wasn't until you know I had a quiet 30 minutes to sit with myself later that I would learn to go take myself somewhere private and quiet, um, so that my body could move through what it needed to move through.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

So um nothing came while I was sleeping, and I'm very grateful for that. Um, I would certainly get like sort of these twitches and somatic releases that occasionally would happen in my sleep, but most of it was um, I think intentionally, with the way my body gave it to me, was so that I could be present and kind of witness what was happening.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Wow. How do you feel like your relationship with your body has changed as it's been opening up and giving you these messages in these last so many years since you started working with the medicine?

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yeah, hugely. Um I mean, that shame that I carried as a child was not just like about me, it was certainly about my body and never being able to quite understand where these kinds of layers of disgust and disdain towards my body originated from. And I think that's very confusing for us as women because there's plenty out there to facilitate that for us in a way. Um, but this was so deep-rooted. Um, you know, I'm grateful I grew up dancing, and I think that really balanced out whatever my body was holding because I got to move and I could have an appreciation for how my body moved, but going through this work, um, just a completely different respect for this body, this vessel, um, and being so much more than just like this biological mechanism that we are in. Um, I really believe there's such an innate wisdom that's connected to something so much bigger that um has supported me and continues to support me. And the younger parts of me that I've been able to connect with, I think that has also shifted my relationship with my body and how I look at my body. It's like I can look at those little ones and what they endured in different stages of life. Um, I just have so much love and compassion. And the thought of speaking to those versions of me, the way that I've spoken to myself in the past, is horrendous. Uh, and yet it makes so much sense now. Like I have the whole picture, but um I think that's also a tool of disconnection that comes, you know, whether intentionally or unintentionally, from sexual abuse, is like it disconnects us from the body and it also builds this wall between us and our body, and the body being a place that we hold so much power and access to things. Um, you know, I think there's something really significant about that disconnection and that reconnection that happens.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Totally. And our sexual energy is our strongest energy. So I'm curious as you've dove deeper into your own sexual abuse, how do you feel like your energy has changed overall?

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah, hugely. Um, hugely, hugely. Obviously, and anyone who's gone through healing from sexual abuse knows this like the way that it derails um, you know, your experience with your own body with idea of pleasure and intimacy. It's like a relearning process all over again. And I think at the end of the day, at some point, it always felt like there was someone or something else in the room with me because of these memories that my body was carrying. But I didn't know what it was, I didn't realize it. So again, talking about like coming back into myself has changed my relationship with my body. And you know, allowing our bodies to have like joy and pleasure, that that's safe, I think, is something that um we don't even know what that feels like when our abuse happens so early. So it's been a sort of a getting to know you process in my own body and in partnership as well. Um, that's not easy by any means, but it's um it's authentic now.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

That's beautiful. Um, and I'm curious how has your work transpired transpired ever since you started working with medicine?

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Yeah. Um, you know, I'll I'll share a little bit um just for anyone who's not familiar with parts of my story. Um I had that initial medicine journey, and then you know, a year and a half of deep, deep processing, all those body memories moving through me, and following some of those, um I started having these spontaneous hand movements that were not drama replaying and was a complete surprise, shock, confusion. And as I allowed it and leaned into it, I discovered that this was energy work moving through my hands. Um, and it was almost as if you know, enough uh signal interference had cleared that some, you know, there was a current of something that was able to move through me again in such a clear way. And um so after that, you know, that started to, of course, like open this whole other door of what has been here, what's available to me, what my body has access to, that my mind doesn't necessarily have access to. Um, and it led me into more journey work that just sort of continued to open more layers. And when I come to look at the last few years of my healing, and I see this so beautifully in my clients as well, is there's this process of let me share, I think it metaphors a lot, so I'm gonna share the metaphor. Um, trauma is often like this big house with lots of rooms, and like each room might hold its own wound, its own pain. And, you know, as we do our healing work, we go into the room, um, and usually we're bringing someone with us, either you know, our adult self, a therapist, a healer, um, and we're there to witness and see what was unspoken, what couldn't be expressed. And going through those rooms is not just about doing that, but like as we do that, there's something that's sitting right next to that pain, right next to that wound. And that is some sort of gift and capacity. And it's almost like that is something that's necessary to open the door into the next room. And that can be a hard thing, right? Because it feels like, oh my gosh, how many rooms are there? How many layers of this are there? But there's also increased capacity, whether that's just our nervous system capacity and regulation and safety or gifts and skills that we are able to gather and bring with us to go to the next place. I mean, that certainly was my journey is that every time I was able to be with um another layer, something else opened and continued to open to things that I was not looking for, I did not expect, um, but have hugely opened my perspective to sort of these bigger themes that we see both in dysfunctional families and maybe even in our society or world at large, in terms of the systems that we exist in, and how systems that depend on control and suppression can come between us and the relationship, our direct relationship with our body and our inner knowing and our access to things beyond what we've been told are available to us. Um, so you know, throughout this time, my work has shifted to line up with that, you know, to make space for that worldview. Um, that doesn't mean that work is right for everyone or it's the right time. Um, and this certainly opened, you know, just to be clear, like that's not how I'm operating in psychotherapy when I have my psychologist hat on. Um, but it's opened up this other branch of my work to help people facilitate a journey that goes beyond just symptom resolution and recovery from trauma, if that's something that speaks to them. Um, that there are layers, uh, if we choose to walk through them in a particular way, that can open access to other types of knowing and sort of a remembrance of who we really are.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Amazing. What would you say to somebody, excuse me, what would you say to somebody who like you knows or thinks that something happened to them but is terrified to open the door? Or maybe they think they're not ready. Because in my opinion, you're never quite really ready. Yeah, that's what I I tell people. So if you can maybe expand on that, like I know or I think something happened to me, but I'm terrified and I don't even know what I'm gonna do with it if I if I do know.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Yes, yeah. That's such a great question. Yeah, and I do to to your point, I don't think there's anything that can prepare anyone for uncovering really painful trauma, even if some part of you knows. Um what I would say is it's so natural for us to want to know and to have certainty. And sitting in that not knowing space is horribly uncomfortable. So like know that you're not alone in that. And also, I think the shift is rather than I need to find out what happened or if something happened, the shift to how can I build enough safety in my body? Because that is really the key that unlocks the door, whether it's abuse or just a layer of something that you are already familiar with is our our bodies, our systems are so beautifully designed to only give us what we can handle when there's capacity for it. Um, so that piece about I'm looking for something or looking to find something out versus I'm going to create the conditions for safety so that if there is something, it can emerge and sort of be contained. Um, the other piece of that is like you articulated this sense of like I'm terrified if something actually did happen. And I think that part is worth spending time with. Um, the part of us that's terrified about what it would mean or the implications of it or what it would change. Um, like don't bypass that part. Doesn't mean we need to treat it as a stop sign, but um, you know, this idea like fear at the threshold often means that there's something really important. So spending time with that part that's holding all that fear and working with it because we want to not push past it. I think that's often when our protective system like buckles down on us and um feels it needs to protect us more. And again, it's like safety. It's like, what does this part of me need to feel like I can walk with it and partner with it as I continue creating more and more safety?

SPEAKER_02 37:54

And what would you say to somebody who involuntarily goes to a plant medicine retreat, let's just say, to work through some family dysfunction, and all of a sudden sexual abuse comes up that they're not even familiar with, but their body remembers? What would you say to somebody in that situation?

SPEAKER_00 38:17

Um, I would really encourage that person to have a lot of support set up for themselves. You know, medicine work, of course, can open the door to so many things, but these experiences that you have, whether it's a traumatic experience that arises or something, you know, more transcendent, um, we have to be able to ground it and integrate it into our bodies. Like that's the thing that makes the difference, um, especially when you're processing abuse. And someone who is um not just familiar with it, but someone who is really well trained in walking you through that process of healing. Because um we have to be so careful, especially when there aren't details, where there isn't certainty, of not putting an interpretation or guiding someone towards certainty for so many reasons, right? Like the obvious reason of not giving someone a meaning that's not theirs, but um, we rob someone of the experience of building trust with their own body, with their own system and allowing things to emerge as they should. Um, but that is not something that should happen in journey space and then sort of have one or two sessions. Like that is something that needs nurturing because you have opened the door to something that asks us to walk through that door, but we all need support and guidance as we walk through that door.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

Um, I resonate with so much that you said, um, just because I've I've shared my own journey with sexual abuse and my medicine work um in this space and through social media. And like I said, I just resonate with so much of your work, and I just knew that bringing you on, I could benefit from it, and my viewers, my my listeners could benefit from it 10 times more just because I know every single person, every woman has had some type of neglect, working with sexual or has dealt with some type of sexual abuse, growing up in family dysfunction, um, so many different layers. Like you said, the house with all of the rooms, something has happened to each one of us as women. So uh thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, your wisdom, your gifts, and just your voice and helping people to understand what could untle with just working with comments and then just working with your body and the importance of listening to your body and not trying to rush into anything. And also understanding, too, when you were talking about uh trying to rush your family into therapy and thinking that it's gonna be such this um magical cure for everything once every everyone gets it and now everything's gonna be great and everyone's gonna be living this great happy life now that um we're all in therapy together. No, it's not that's not quite how it works. Um where can we find you on social media?

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram or TikTok, uh Dr. Denise Side. Um, you can also visit my website, Dr. Denise. Um I have some uh self-paced programs, some workshops uh that are kind of more in the vein of inner child healing and cycle breaking. Um, and then if you're looking for more kind of immersive work uh that's a little more expansive, um that information is on there as well at drdenise.com.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Thank you so much. I'm gonna actually leave all that information in the description for this podcast episode.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Perfect. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Yes, it was a pleasure having you.