Fitness Business Insights with Matt Robinson
Fitness Business Insights with Matt Robinson is your weekly dose of strategies, systems, and success stories for Personal Trainers, Coaches, and Gym Owners. Each episode dives into topics like fitness marketing, client acquisition, gym floor systems, client retention, and lead generation — giving you practical tools to grow a thriving fitness business you love.
Fitness Business Insights with Matt Robinson
Myles Downey - Expert Coaching Advice for Fitness Professionals
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Myles Downey is a truly inspirational leader in the arena of 'coaching' and 'coaching education'. With experience at the highest levels of sport, business and performance, Myles is truly a master of his craft and has written extensively on the subject.
In this interview, he shares simple insights to improve Fitness Professional's understanding of coaching and how to use it effectively.
Every personal trainer wants to have a long-lasting, successful, and fulfilling career, yet still so many struggle to gain momentum and end up settling for less than their potential and worse still, leaving the industry before they even get started. With over 30 plus years of experience of coaching clients and mentoring out of the personal trainers, we have dedicated our professional lives to helping others reach that potential. We are your host, all company and Robinson, and welcome to the profit podcast. The best political and welcome back to the Prophet Podcast.
SPEAKER_00You are joined by myself, Matt Robinson, and I'm here again as always with Paul Campbell. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_04Very well, mate. Yes, I'm very, very good. Welcome back to all the listeners. How are you this week, Matt?
SPEAKER_00I'm very good, mate. I'm very good. Even more so, because we've got a special guest on with us today. We've got him hiding away in our Zoom room with us.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we love having a guest on and excited about this one today for sure.
SPEAKER_00So, just to give you all a brief introduction into who we're talking to today, we're talking to Miles Downey, who's an authority in the area of performance coaching and leadership. Now, I was doing a fair bit of reading up on Miles afterwards, and I think it'd have been easier to do a bio of things that he hasn't done rather than ones that he has because he's done so many different things. He's a keynote speaker, he's an author of three books, he's worked with England rugby teams and coaches, and the same in New Zealand. It sounds like he's been all over the world speaking and sort of advising on leadership and coaching. So he really is an expert in this area. And as our listeners always know, we love to bring people into our world from different areas. So very warm welcome to Miles Downey. Miles, how are you doing? I'm doing well, and thank you for having me. And thank you to your listeners for listening. Yeah, the only thing missing from your bio, my Miles, was uh was an appearance on the Profit Podcast. So you can add that to that now. You can put that on the website as well.
SPEAKER_01That will sort everything.
SPEAKER_00I've probably butchered what it is that you actually do. So just for the uh just for the benefit of the listeners, can you give our audience an idea of you know the type of work that you do and what what you've been involved with over the last few years of coaching and things like that?
SPEAKER_01There's a whole there, I guess there are there's some main things that I do, one of which is something that for some reason is called executive coaching, and what it means is about helping senior people, usually leaders in usually larger organizations, perform more effectively. A lot of executive coaching is very much about leadership development, so helping leaders be better people, which is clearly a good thing. My emphasis is much more on helping people perform, helping them achieve business results. It's a much more exciting game to be in. And then I another part of my background is that I set up a business in the late 90s called the School of Coaching. And that was had a very specific purpose, which was to train people to be coaches. And they were either people who became executive coaches or people who who were people who were managers and leaders in large organizations, so that they'd include coaching as as part of the way in which they manage their teams and help their teams to perform. And then I'll say first very briefly because I think it it helps people understand who I am. My interest and and and with your with with the listeners here, particularly who will understand sport perhaps better than most organized people that I speak to. I read a book when I when I was, I don't know what age I was, but um, it was some somewhere in the 80s. And the book was called The Inner Game of Tennis. And it points to a distinction between so inner immediately suggests outer. And what happens in in which is less true now, but certainly true then, was all coaching, all training was on the outer, was on technique, was where to put your feet and how to hold a racket or whatever else. And Tim Gowie, the author, changed that around like the title, just the inner game of tennis. So he was interested in what was going on between your ears, your mindset, your capacity to pay attention and focus. And that was, I was a relatively good tennis player. And you might have picked up from my accent that I'm Irish, so relative Irish and good. You can, you know, so um there's there's another word of four letters that you could put to describe my abilities as a tennis player in those days. But but it was a complete inspiration, and that's really where it started from.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it was this idea of not just looking after technique work, but what we're saying to ourselves and how that impacts our performance. Yeah, and then you've obviously brought that into other arenas as well in in you know, outside of sports.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. So it started, then the interest started in sport, and then I coaching didn't really exist. So we were we were creating that idea uh right from the beginning with uh a small group of people uh in London. So I moved from Dublin to London in order to develop that and become skilled at it.
SPEAKER_04The word coaching is is used. I was talking to somebody about this the other day, but in our industry, we all we all used to be called personal trainers, and that recently has changed. I don't think anybody uses the word personal trainer, Matt. You might not agree with me there, but we see it a hell of a lot now that people are calling themselves personal coaches, and then we do mentorship. Myself and Matt do mentorship for personal trainers, yeah, but we use coaching. So I wanted to talk to you about that. What is coaching? What would you define it as? What's what specifically is coaching?
SPEAKER_01The trouble is it's it even with with within people who think they know about it, it's become a bit of a minefield, and everybody has their own definition and distinction. And and and for me, it's very simple. It's it's whatever I do to help another person perform. And that means everything from you know thinking through what their goals are to uh understanding their approach to to whatever their discipline is, to understanding things about who they are, so who shows up. So your identity is really, really important. But but the but the the biggest distinction in the in in the in the world of coaching is a distinction between who's doing is about who's doing the thinking. So that what Galway brought to the table, which was was never there before, was uh he he kind of he he he I remember him telling me the story the first time is he he had it he was having a tennis lesson with somebody and he just had an argument with his girlfriend. And uh so he wasn't on the he was on the tennis court physically, but mentally he was still having the argument with his girlfriend.
SPEAKER_04Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Somewhat to his shock and horror, he noticed that the person on the other end of the court, his client who was paying him money, was actually getting better. So he said, hold on, how how do people learn? Became the question. And of course, if you really start thinking about that and you think right back to the first, you know, one of the first things that we learn as human beings is to walk. And the truth about that is that nobody teaches you how to walk. And it's like, oh, so there's an inbuilt capacity to learn. There's also an inbuilt capacity to solve problems, to think, to articulate something, to be creative. But we get sent to school and all that stuff gets beaten out of us. Stop thinking, do as you're told. And most people get stuck in that for the rest of their goddamn lives. So the so the the fundamental, for me, the fundamental thing that coaching brings to the party is that you help that person stand in their own shoes, make their own decisions, think through for themselves. That's what's exciting. And I think that's possibly the point where um where there's a connection between your world and my world, which is that you don't you don't want people, you know, you want them to stand on their own feet. You want to take responsibility for their health, for their well-being. And and you can't do that, you can do that to a certain degree by telling them how. But if you can get them to own it, by then we're into a completely different game.
SPEAKER_04We often talk um to a lot of uh personal trainers about but that very thing that making a big change long term with people is about helping them change their identity, helping them think about themselves as a as an exerciser rather than a a non-exerciser, like really simplistic. But yeah, so that that thing of identity rings rings really true. It's difficult for people to grasp. So, how do you get people to start to think about their identity then? Is there anything you can help us with with that?
SPEAKER_01If you once you start, once you kind of get it, then you begin to hear stories about it all the time. And actually, what's happened, I um in the last 12 months, there has been a flood of people speaking about identity. Um, there's uh uh an American tennis player, I think he's at he's at least six foot eight. His name is Opeka. Um and he's he he looks like he came out of the forests. I mean, you know, he's got this huge beard, um, and and and he looks unkempt in his in his the way he presents himself. And I saw an interview him with the other day, and he was said, my favorite fashion designer is so-and-so. And I have no idea who the name didn't ring any bells for me. He said, because she's got a really clear sense of her own identity. And I'm going, my God. And he said, he said, that's this that's true for professionals too. He said, I need to know who I am because it dictates the way I practice, the way I play, it dictates my strategies. Um, you know, if you look at the two best tennis players of our time, uh, or maybe not quite today, but the last few years, um, Nadal and Federer, they're both hugely successful, and yet they are unmistakably different people on the court. But each of them understands their identity, and each of them understands the implications of that identity for themselves. So that in other words, the implication for Nadal is that he's brutally fit and will, you know, and kind of pulverizes the balls into the corner. That's congruent with his identity, and he's learning to play that. Federer, completely different, light footed, gentle, deft, all of these different things plays in a different way. How you know, so one, understand that that's different and it's different for everybody. Um, and and then how how do you begin to understand it? Difficult. So I it took me a while to understand that my on court identity is Big Zan Cat, because I play competitive tennis, or I'm I I will be next year. I've been relearning. That's been fun. But Big Zan Cat. And it was, it was like, and it's like because somebody said to me, one of my coaches said, Miles, what's your signature? And and he and he was astute enough to realize that I'm slightly older. So he's when I said, I don't know what you mean, he said, Well, who do you play like? So he mentioned people who were kind of the same age as me. Is it like McEnroe or Edberg? I said, Wow, okay. So I began to form a kind of composite, and big means I hit the ball incredibly hard and deep. So I'm pulverizing you with the first one. Zen means I manage myself relatively well, so mindset, all those things. Cat, I kill the ball within three hits. So I pounced very quickly. So, but it took me a while to work that out. It took me a while to work out what that meant in terms of what I needed to strengthen and develop. So your question, I'll go back to, is one of the ways of getting in there is an exercise which somebody called golden moments. And I hate that particular title. But it's about looking back over your life and finding those moments when you really shone. So you had a golden moment. And what you do is you ask a person, so tell me about a golden moment. When you when you shone, when you felt strong, when you felt confident, when you were whatever it is, and you ask them, you get them to and say, tell me about it, where were you? What were you doing? So you get them to get really really concrete about what was happening before you say, and and and what were you feeling? And then you might say, and okay, and so what was it about you in that moment that was really important? And if you do that three or four times, three or four different golden moments, you begin to get them to reflect on what's that solid core of themselves. And then you can start to ask questions. So if if that's truly you, then what does fitness mean? And it's now um I'm gonna stop talking in a second, but it's like there's I'm a little bit into gardening, but I'm but I'm not a horticulturist. But I do know that that that when you're trying to grow an apple tree, you you graft on the kind of apple you want onto a particular what they call a rootstock. So the rootstock is something that is not gonna rot and it's gonna thrive in the soil you're putting it into. If you graft it onto the wrong rootstock, you don't get any fruit. So it's like your identity is the rootstock. You gotta get, you gotta understand that. And then from that flowers whatever flowers. So you can ask the question so now you that's your identity, or that's your that's the emerging sense of your identity. What does that mean for you as a as a healthy person? You know, so and that's then you're into really, and now you've got something solid to work with because that's where their motivation is, that's where their drive is, that's where their aspirations are.
SPEAKER_04That's great. That was a great way to put it. And we've learned something about apple trees as well. So if you want to a little bit of bonus knowledge there.
SPEAKER_01I'm sure there's some somebody out there who'll tell us tell me that I was wrong, but anyway.
SPEAKER_04There was a couple of things stuck out when you were describing that there. One, I've got a colleague of mine, or an ex-colleague, he was a strength athlete, he used to do just that big Zen cat thing you were talking about. He used to say, I'm like a silverback gorilla when I go in the gym. And he had a very strong sense of who he was, yeah, the environment. And he saw it in his performance. I remember him telling a couple of people that, and I remember a couple of people saying, You're you're a what? They were kind of dismissive of it. And I thought, that makes total sense when he was saying it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, and it how it was kind of his core image of himself mattered in the performance so much. Um, and and the second thing that came to mind with it was this is this becoming a lot more prominent now. I mean, I listened to something the other day about from I think it was Dan Carter, the all black, yeah. Hell of a lot now more about identity, and he did it as more of a team thing, but also the individuals within the team. And um, he talked a hell of a lot about it now, and it seems to be becoming more and more and more prominent. And people are noticing the importance of it so much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's it's happening all over the place. I mean, in my work as an executive coach, it's one of the things that I insist on having a conversation with people when we start, what's your identity? And another and which goes alongside you, and and how do you win? But if you if you look at uh I I have a passing interest um in um in rugby, rugby union, and our local team here is is Harlequins. And they got they and they had a change of coach. Well, you what was interesting was the coach went away, it was sent away, um but it was all done very gracefully. And rather than appoint a new coach immediately, they took their time and the three assistant coaches, um, whose names uh Alan Win Jones, uh Nick Evans, and another another guy, Irish guy, I can see him, can't remember his name, but they they they worked out that they were going to do it together. But the thing they did was they let the rugby team play the way they want to play. So they so they didn't impose a way of playing. They said they they got them, and so it was a question of about true Quinn's identity. And within six months, you know, they were falling out of the league. Within six months, they'd come back. And actually, as you remember, they won the premiership last year. I mean, which it was just extraordinary. And even even Eddie, because I know I worked with Eddie Jones and his coaches, and he was he he's he micromanages, he's very has to be in control, and it's he's even yeah, to his eternal credit, he's he's talking about a much more player-led approach to for the team playing. And what that allows is the identity of the team to emerge and be on the court. So you're doing something or the pitch, you're doing something that comes naturally to you, not something that's imposed by another.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that seems to be more the modern manager, the modern approach does a lot more of that player-led focus, and they're more of a facilitator rather than a disciplinarian, seem to be what they used to be, or a micro manager.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you know, I I'm my local tennis club, when I it's it's a um the place where I train is a lawn tennis association center of excellence. When I started there six or seven years ago, I would notice, I would notice the pros sometimes shouting at the kids. It's like a you know, a 12-year-old kid and a you know, a grown man shouting at them, you know, asking them if they're being serious or not. I mean, you know, really. Um you won't hear that anymore. You will not hear anything like that. You'll hear music being played, you'll hear people being praised and encouraged, you'll hear them, you'll hear the coaches asking the kids questions about, you know, so you did it then and you now did it a second time. What was different? It's like, wow, it's a 12-year-old kid being asked a question and they're having to think. It's so exciting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I think going back to like why we think this is potentially important in our industry as well, not to not to come at it from too negative a stance, but I think the problem in our industry at the minute is you can see where people are getting fitness wrong because they're not coming at it from a place of their own identity. They're trying to copy everyone else. And I think that's both on the part of clients coming in to try and emulate something that they've seen someone else do, which might have been inspirational, but they don't understand the reasons they did it. And then from the personal trainer side of things and and how they're trying to run their business and maybe even work with their clients, similarly, they might be trying to copy or emulate what other successful trainers have done or what other personalities have done in our industry, especially in the social media age, and then wondering why they can't get their own success. And it's just trying to copy what what the what the current trends are doing and things like that. So, you know, you can see where people are getting this wrong from the start.
SPEAKER_01And then what you're pointing out, which is brilliant, I think, too, is that actually you as the as the trainer and coach also need to understand what your identity is. Um, and and and and so how do I show up as that trainer and the coach? What am I good at? What interests me? What what are my skills? What are what do I need to backfill? If you've got so, and but but that it should be a real expression of you rather than you trying to be somebody else, you're gonna be you're gonna have so much more impact.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think once once people understand that identity as well, they can double down on that, double down on their strengths and tend to get a lot better, better results rather than trying to fix weaknesses that aren't really a part of that identity anyway. Exactly. Yeah, get much better results.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, play to the strengths, yes. And carrying on with this theme of the uh the like the the coaching and and how we might use it, Miles. I know something when we spoke the other day on the phone, you mentioned this idea of non-directive coaching.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, that was something that I thought might be interesting to discuss, like what that is, how we use it. I know that it sort of loosely relates to just getting getting people to think for themselves and you know come up with some of their own answers. I think that's something that's really important in in our roles and what we do in helping people.
SPEAKER_01It's difficult to communicate this in in a in a very short space of of time, um, but we should try. And and and there and there it's so the thing is that is there's an expression, and I was just I was just checking the there's an expression you somebody says that well, that's a loaded question. So a loaded question means that you're you're you're pushing, nudging somebody in a bit in a particular direction, or it's a or it's a question that's biased or whatever else. And I was trying to think, what would be the opposite of a loaded question? What we questioned that didn't have a bias in it, or or pushing somebody in a direction. And I and I haven't found a great answer because you know the opposite of loaded might be empty, but I it's not an empty question. But but just say a question was empty of content, so it and it points you in a direction. So um um so if I'm if I'm helping somebody you solve a problem, and I'll and I say, so what could you do? That's an empty question. I'm not saying do this, I'm saying what could you do? And then I listen and then the answer is it, and then I say, and what else could you do? That's another empty question. It's I'm I'm not I'm not thinking, it causes them to think. So it's those kinds of questions that I'm looking for, and often they happen in sequences rather than just one question. So it's not that people ask clever questions, it's they actually it's that they have a sequence of questions. And there's a fabulous model which is so, so simple. And you'll you'll find it, you'll find bad versions of it all over the internet because it's been misunderstood. Because that mindset that wants to solve problems for people and to be in control is still prevalent in our society, disastrously so. So you'll find bad versions of it, but the the pure versions, obviously, you'll find that in my book, but uh apart from which, um the growth, it was it was it was the grow it the growth G R O W, and we've added a T at the beginning. So if that's GROW plus T, that's five steps. So when I've actually I actually did a demonstration in public, and I wasn't being clever or trying to do this. I asked five questions, uh, and I and I've seen a video uh subsequently. The first question was so this was a public demonstration. I had 10 minutes to coach somebody. What do you want to talk about? And they spoke, and I said, and I kind of nodded. I said, okay, got it. So that was that that was the T topic. I now knew what they wanted to talk about. Topic. And then I said, gee, G is for goal, but actually it means outcome. So goal means for somebody might mean a long term. I want you know by Christmas, I want to have lost half a stone or you know, be able to lift this amount, whatever it is. It's that that you know, outcome is what do you want to get from this conversation? So, what do you want to talk about? Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. What what do you want to get out of this conversation? Hmm. I want well, I want a new idea. Oh, okay, great. R is reality. Tell me what's happening. Well, you know, I'm I'm you know, I'm I'm overweight and I huffed by the time I reach the top of the stairs and I don't eat very well. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. O is for options. What could you do? And W is for wrap-up, meaning bring it to an end. What are you going to do? You know, very simple questions. And and and but but so what I'm managing is I'm not asking one clever question, it's kind of a process that you take people through where their thinking emerges and unfolds. So another and and a really good way of thinking about that is something I call floodlight and spotlight. So when I and I was coaching, there's a there's a very famous um global management consultancy called McKinsey. And if you're at the top level of partner in McKinsey, you are earning a fortune uh and and very busy and and and making a huge impact in the world, some good, some not so good. Um, and and I had one guy who was very, very senior, lovely to work with, and I'd sit down with his name was Pierre in his office, and we'd start with floodlight. I'd see, and he and he so I said, I would say, Pierre, so what's happening? And he had some places to go. He had, you know, he led the office, so that was one thing he needed to talk about. He had his own clients, he had his own aspirations, and there were some about four or five boxes, and he'd talk about those four or five boxes. Floodlight. Floodlight, you the the lighting lights up the entire pitch. And he'd so he'd go through his routine and then I'd say, is there anything else? Right? Another empty question, is there anything else? And he'd think, he was wonderful, he'd think, he'd say, I'm beginning to wonder about, and something else would emerge. And then I typically say, Okay, so what you've told me in the floodlight is this, this, this, this, and this. And he'd say, Yeah. And I'd say, and then it now it's spotlight. So, of all of those things, which is most interesting, and he'd go, yeah, and oh, we okay, we need to talk about this today. And it's like, so what I'm doing, um is using his intelligence to solve his own problem. I'm not coming in with the answers. Yeah, I sometimes have answers because I've been around a while and I've coached a lot of people, and and and sometimes I challenge people when they're not telling the truth, whatever that might be. But essentially, I you get the picture.
SPEAKER_00And I think I think in our industry, this is this is more important than most, because I think what a lot of people haven't realized is that I I often think about what we do, and I don't think there's really any other industry where you have a uh a predominance of younger people trying to help older people. That's generally what's happening in our industry, is you've got people in the 20s and 30s generally helping an average client that might be in their mid-40s, 50s, 60s. And you know, it's it almost seems unfathomable to like get a 20-year-old to answer a 60-year-old's questions. You know, they've got so much more experience than you and so much more context. Like the 20-year-old might not have kids or a wife or anything else to consider. How can you possibly come up with answers for this person? You've you've got to get them from that from that individual, you've because you've got no understanding.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't think there's many other areas in life where you get that sort of relationship very often. It's quite often the other way around.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, I I'm I'm managing an ongoing uh arthritis in the hip with tendonitis as well. And and for a variety of reasons, I can't take steroids. Um, and and I and I'm not up for the operation. It's not it's not that significant yet. So the route through, I'm I work with a very good physiotherapist, and I'm now working with the strength and conditioning guy. And he's really brilliant because he he he's so you know, he's spoken with the physio and da da da. So we're all aligned. Um, and and but but what he's paying attention to is not is is my responses. And I'm I'm I'm pretty self-aware. So I'll come in and I'll say, so this happened during the week, you know, there was this and a bit of that, and then after the day after this was hurting a bit, and he's really so he's using me and my my observation of what's happening in my body for him to choose what we do in the in the particular session on that day and what he gives me afterwards. And I and I think that's fairly unique. So he's he's not running his agenda, he's not saying, well, you know, what we do is this, and then we do that. That's not what's happening. He's listening to me, and you can see him really processing. And then he goes, Okay, so today maybe we'll do this. And it's brilliant, but he's but he's but he's also making me take responsibility for my own strength and conditioning by not imposing his agenda.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, which ultimately leads to better results long term when people are taking responsibility. Can I can I ask you something just a side note? Because I know for the audience's sake, listening to the model you uh you unpack there, yeah, I think it's brilliant. I know there'll be people listening to this that'll say, Well, when I ask people those questions, they don't give me anything back. So this the kind of idea of suggestibility, when you say what are your options, what can we do about this? I know there'll be trainers listening going, my client would say nothing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm paying you to tell me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So what what are your your options when things like that start to happen when clients aren't as suggestible? Um, you know, they might not be fully engaged in that process.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I so I I at one level I don't know the answer to your question because it because I it's it's it's um but but I have to answer that question often in in the context in which I work. Uh and I and I if I said I had a foolproof solution to you uh and way forward, I that would be a complete uh lie. Um but there are some things that I know that are important, one of which is you have to persist. And if you if you keep on asking questions and keep on being open, people, most people will eventually come up with an answer. So, and and maybe that means is you don't ask them the biggest question in the beginning. So you so you know you you start with questions about so why are you interested in this and what where do you want to get to? But you but you really, really listen. So I think so. Here's the first piece is in in asking simpler questions that are that are that you have a right to ask, really listening, summarizing their answers so they get that you heard them, that then creates a different kind of level of trust. And what that means is they're more likely to answer more difficult questions later on. So you know, so you know, Mac, we've been working here, we've been working for four months, um, and it's great, and we've been having a good time here, but but my guess is that you that you haven't been doing as much work between the sessions like we agreed. What's going on? Now, if you've if you've listened and been careful and attentive and built trust in the relationship over the over the three months, they will probably answer. So it's so so one, build a relationship. You do that by listening intently and summarizing, even if you feel the summary is slightly unnecessary because we don't do that in normal social discourse. Do it. The person knows that you've understood them. That's immense. Uh, it's even worth over-summarizing to get that. Um the and the other thing that that's that that's um on my mind is is you might not do this on the first day because it's a function of building that relationship. But after a while, you might say, why you're asking questions? So I, you know, I I quite quickly get to a point with with the people I'm working with, which it says, you know, my job is to get you to do the thinking. Now, as an executive coach, that kind of makes more obvious sense because I I don't know about their business, particularly. So I can't be expert in their business. So, but but you but you say, so you know, you'll you might say in the second or third session, you'll notice I ask lots of questions. The reason I ask lots of questions is I I is is there are a number of reasons. One of which is I actually want to hear what you're experiencing so that I pitch what I'm doing to meet your needs. But the other is I want you to take more and more responsibility for this. And if you come up with answers, then you're gonna own this process rather than just wait for me to tell you what to do. And that way we'll make more so so. What you do is you contextualize, you position why you're asking questions. And that's so so if you do that and build a relationship, then then you then you will get more people on board than you would have done anyway. And then the the third lesson is persist.
SPEAKER_04I love that. I think that's great, and I think it does fit our industry. What would what would you say, Matt? Do you think that fits in with what a lot of our guys could do?
SPEAKER_00I think they'll take a lot of value from that and because it it's something they know they should be doing, but don't always have a clear, clear way to do it. And I think that that T Grow model in particular makes it quite simple, doesn't it? Can breaking down into those five steps.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Well, and and and and and an easier one is is you know is is the the floodlights um uh spotlight thing. You just say, so so so why so an example of that might say so why why are you coming to these sessions? No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay, okay. So and and then you keep the floodlight on, you say, What else, why else? Yeah, and and and and you know, and if if if there was a kind of really magical result, what would that be for you? So you might ask three or four different questions about the same thing. Now you've got stuff on the on the on on the pitch on in the floodlight. And then you say, Okay, well, you said a lot of things there. You summarize, you say, Well, which of those is most important for you or most exciting for you, or whatever.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00Could you use that as well, Miles? In terms of because we quite often get faced with uh situations with clients where when if we were to do that floodlight scenario, what they would actually be coming up with is all the things that are either going wrong or getting in the way. So those those things that they're mentioning, you know, it might be, oh, well, I'm busy at work, the kids are driving me mad, my husband's never at home, you know, my mum's unwell, I can't get shot. And you're like, oh my gosh. So does it sort of work the other way if you're trying to sort of not just talk about an area of interest, but maybe talk about an area because yes, all those things might be going in a way that doesn't serve us, but we can't handle them all at once. No, so could you use it in that context as well?
SPEAKER_01You've absolutely got it. That's exactly what you do, and that's a great, you know. So we so so you know, Maria, you know, you what what what you know, you're not, you know, it's not working out as we as we thought what's happening, and then all the things you said, great list. No, you it's not your job to solve those, but then what you can but but you can hear it and you say, Okay, great. So have you any thoughts about how you might be able to get you know, kind of even even kind of 10 minutes of your own into each day, or whatever it is. So you're right, you you you focus it down, you bring you, yeah. The act of focusing it down means that that person is thinking clearly about that problem and not about all the things they can't solve. So it's really, really critical. It actually changes the chemistry in the brain when you go from floodlight to uh flood, yes, floodlight to spotlight. Floodlight disperse attention all over the place, creative, imaginative, floodlight focused, intense, problem solving on something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then in in terms of using tools like this as well, Miles, something I've often wondered is what would someone like you say in terms of when is best to use something like this in the context of, you know, because in our world, someone's coming to us for a training session is what they think. So I quite often like to use the rest periods between exercises to have these conversations. There are some times where you might have to set aside some time to actually sit down and talk properly. But I know that a big, a big hang up that personal trainers have and and fitness coaches is that, well, I can't take time away from training because that's what they're coming for. Um, and and there's that that that fear of like, what will my client think if they're not training and we're just talking?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I think that's another part of the answer is um, yeah, I get it. Um uh, but if if what if the conversation you're having is in service of them becoming fitter or healthier or experiencing greater well-being, then then that's a good enough reason itself. I mean, because I when I first started out coaching, I didn't start coaching in business. I was I was um, you know, well, I I I did it as a late teenager to to make pocket money in the summer holidays. Um, but then when I got trained as an inner game coach, um I I can remember sitting, you know, uh for some reason I got all the weirdos. So, you know, I don't mean that in any disparaging way, but I got kids who were having trouble at school. For some reason, their parents would send these kids to me. And I would literally end up sitting on the court talking to people about what the was going on. Um, and and can remember that vividly. And then then I, you know, and then we'd have that conversation. Then so are you ready to play? Yeah, and of course they now they're relaxed, and of course, they start once they're so I I think so. One, I think I think what you're saying is brilliant. You use those moments of rest in between because actually, you know, they can be awkward moments, so you kind of you know, if you you're counting down the 30 seconds before you do the next set of reps. So that so that that's a good moment, and and and if you're gonna do it, give it the attention it needs. The other way is that um is as the person shows up for the session, you know, ask the question, how are you? and and listen to the answer. And if you get any sense that something's off, just say, do you need to say something more about that? Or or I noticed that you said that and you seemed a bit uncomfortable. And now clearly we're not psychologists, but we can listen. So there's another thing to be very, very aware of. So, one, as this conversation opens up, that's a great moment just to check in with people, and that may become something to the other is the the moments in between. The the third one is where where um you've got a sense that something's going wrong. Um, most of the people who you're working with, I imagine, are really used, they don't even know this. They're really used to watching people and their bodies and how they move and work, and that's also giving them information about how they are inside, not just outside. So if your intuition is screaming at you that something's going wrong, respond to your intuition. You were given the intuition for a damn good reason. Use it. Last point to make is that there's a there's a classical thing that happens in psychotherapy, and we're not psychotherapy and psychology sessions, which is that the person says something just when they're leaving. And it actually has a it's a kind of a syndrome that has a title, which of course I don't remember. But so also just be alert in the moment when you're saying goodbye or wrapping up the session, that's when somebody will let something leak.
SPEAKER_04That's really interesting. Is there a reason what's the reasoning behind that?
SPEAKER_01Or is it just something I'll have to I'll have to offer a guess? My and my guess is that it's something about I I really want to tell you this thing, but I'm scared that you'll that if I tell you about it, you'll reject me and you won't like me anymore. But but the pressure to tell is so great that I'm just gonna squirt it out, then rush and close the door afterwards. So it's like so your job is to say, oh, okay, and and you might then use your intuition and say, really? Say something about that? Or or then they come back next time and and you're in a good conversation. You said I noticed at the end of last conversation, you said that you were kind of lacking in self-confidence. What's that about? Because again, they know they'll have been heard.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. My my take on being a personal trainer and having these opportunities to talk to people about this is actually that we're in one of the best positions of anybody. Because when people come, they're kind of disarmed. Yes. Like you said about sitting down with the guys on the court, the kids on the court, and just having a chat to them, they couldn't be more relaxed. This is probably the one moment where you're gonna get a chance to do it. Yes. Whereas if you sat in a consultation room, sat across from somebody, just totally the wrong environment, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um can I ask you about one thing I was listening to, and I want people to pick up on this, is you ask every time I hear somebody like yourself, an expert in this area, or somebody um somebody else like yourself, is you ask such good questions, but so simple as well. But every time I hear one, I think, God, that's brilliant, but it's so simple. Is that something you practice? Is it is is it just come with experience? Is there anything people can do to accelerate that?
SPEAKER_01So that there's that's a great, it's such a good question. Um, first of all yeah, so and when when I'm teaching coaches, I say I will often say, if the if the if your question has more than five words in it, it's a speech. So it's like which coaches don't like to be told about. Um but but it's it's kind of the truth. It's back to what I said about empty questions. It's it's it's it's like you know, if if if I'm not trying to suggest something or load something into it, then there tends to be fewer words. But the biggest thing, and this may be this maybe it's about being really clear about what your intention is. There's a an idea, a notion, which is called the three positions of genius. And the person who taught it to me, I don't think they chose this way of teaching because I'm a tennis player, but he used a tennis court as a way of explaining it. Um and what what he said was that position one the first thing he said was that people who demonstrate genius have the ability to move between these three positions. Position one is the player, you're conscious of yourself, what you're doing, your strategies, your tactics, your attention is with you. Position two is when he said, you know, the point might be over, and you're collecting the balls to start the next point, and you might say, I wonder what's happening over there. So you put yourself in their shoes. And position three is you um you imagine that you're on the umpire's chair, and you say, I wonder what's happening out there. And from position three, you can see you and the opponent and the whole situation. So you're you're standing back. So one, two, and three, and memorably what he said was people who demonstrate genius, who have who show genius have the capacity to move between these three positions. So when I'm when I'm coaching, one of the things that that um often gets pointed out if I've done a demonstration of in public is one, how simple the questions are, but two, is that I often kind of sit back, literally and literally pull back away from the person that I'm coaching. Um, and maybe even look out the window. Because I'm not going to ask the question until I know what the question is. And the place that I go to is hold on, what's my intention here? My intention is to get this person to see something they're missing. My intention is to raise their awareness about this. My intention is to help them relax. Okay. What do you need to do to relax? Um I'm noticing something that you're noticing, you're not noticing. So it's like when when the intention is clear, the the words become fewer. Yes, you can practice it, but actually, the the easiest route, behavior follows intention. If your intentions are clear, the behavior tends to be appropriate.
SPEAKER_04For the for the benefit of the people just getting the audio version of this, I mean it is going to be a visual on YouTube as well, but that has been noticeable. Like you do sit back, and there's a very clear moment where you're considering what you want to say, and that's that's the same in your questions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, and that that's the discipline of being lucky enough to have been doing this for 30 years or something.
SPEAKER_04It's brilliant.
SPEAKER_00And some something you mentioned earlier, Miles, that I wanted to highlight because I think it's particularly useful for our audience as you mentioned this idea of potentially spotting if something's off with someone by the way that they're moving the body and using the body. I think that's something our guys could really tune into. Actually, I can think of occasions where someone comes in and they're normally switched on and they can't tell the left from the right, and they're doing the warm-up all wrong, even though we've done it 20,000 times before. And you almost just go to them, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop. Yeah. What's going on?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I think that's that that's that's such an easy route for a personal trainer into a conversation. And I actually think that in that scenario, it would be uh it would be really sort of well respected by the person as well. The fact that you've picked up on that, the fact that you've picked up that they're off, even though they've not said anything. Um, I think that's a that's a great. Opportunity for people in our industry to use coaching and help first and foremost.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. We we so this I so I'm gonna by saying all of this, I'm going to over-emphasize it and almost kind of make it, you know, and make it bigger than it really needs to be. What we what what both of us in our different professions, or all of us, need to be clear about is we are not psychotherapists. So if somebody goes into a place that's the kind of that's you know difficult, you know, my marriage, and then I I listen and then I say, you know, that's that's not what my role with you is about. I'm not able to help you in that space. Um but but I, you know, but I you know, so either, you know, if it's if it's if it's a mental health issue, refer them to their doctor. Um, or you know, if you know somebody who's in the world of you know, and it might be worth actually having in your network somebody who you trust as a good psychic psychologist or psychotherapist, really useful relationship to have, um, not least because the work can go both ways, um, and uh and and refer them to somebody. But and I'll say it again, you know, uh they're they're slightly vulnerable with you, they trust you, so they they may say more than they would normally say. That's incredibly useful, you respect it, you don't push too any further than they they they want to go if you refer them somewhere else, even if yeah, that's enough said. It's just just be conscious of that. But it is the point, it is the place where you then from that level of trust, you get into conversations about identity, about what they really want and the real reasons for for trying to be fitter or what's stopping them. Um all of those things.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. That probably leads us nicely into a next topic we wanted to talk to you about is that we we quite often get asked about like how much of this is a mindset thing with fitness, and and how much of it is the the practical steps, how much of it is the mechanics, not strategy. Because a lot of trainers lean heavily towards strategy without really tackling mindset, and then maybe some are vice versa, and some are in the middle. Like, what what's your take on mindset versus strategy?
SPEAKER_01That both are equally important, and and mindset is is moving up the um the agenda for most people. There's a wonderful book that's worth if you like reading by a lady called Carol Dweck, D-W-E-C-K, uh, called Mindset. And her distinction is between uh a fixed mindset and a growth mindset, uh, and and our cultural uh um educational uh corporate structures tend to build in a fixed fixed mindset rather than a growth mindset. So that's a really good place to start. Um, and in fact, we were um when when uh Matt and I spoke earlier, I remembered that over the weekend, my local team, Quinn's, that we've just mentioned, they were not playing well uh in the first half and they were losing to Wasps. They were 16-0 down. Um, and they came out in the second half and they scored four tries and won the match comfortably. And in the during an interview during the second half, they asked the one of the uh Quinn's coaches, Well, so what happened at at um at halftime? What was the conversation in the dressing room? He said, Oh no, he said, not much. He said, you know, he said it's a Sunday afternoon, there's nobody really watching, you know, they prefer to be at home. So it was a mindset thing. So we talked about mindset a bit, and they came out of the tunnel and in for the second half, and it was just exactly the same players wearing exactly the same kit with exactly the same strategies and tactics, and they knocked the other guys out of the arena. It was just remarkable. So it's so if you don't have it, you're not going anywhere. So helping helping people get a mindset or that's around their own um fitness and well-being is really, really useful work. And we've touched on it with uh Matt, something you said earlier about you know, people um you know maybe coming to work with somebody because they for whatever reason they're coming to work, some of which will be externally imposed, you know, kind of the glitzy uh world we live in where you you have to look good and it's like you know, all that that's the social media and all of those things that happens in there. So one, uh you know, the the your beliefs about whether it's possible for you to be fit, your beliefs about how much effort you can put in, your uh all of those things are are part of that mindset. Um and and graciously, you know what? I think even if people, if you guys following first of all, you know, being paying attention to what the person is is doing in in the physical sense and noticing them as as as you you drew attention back to a map, that's important. And that also gives you the chance to also begin to wonder about what their mindset is. So even you wondering about their mindset is actually going to make a difference because you begin to form a picture of what's going on for them, and then if you can begin to surface that and and talk about, you know, what what what are your beliefs around being fit? What's possible for you? Then that that becomes a really, really useful conversation. Yeah. Here's a really useful question, and it's a tool. Uh, and a friend of mine kind of christened it um as direction of travel. So so what I'm trying to do with people is I'm trying to find out what their direction of travel is. And and it's explicit. And I insist on having this conversation as part of the coaching work. So and and and direction of travel is more than just kind of a vision of the future and it's and kind of goals and kind of you know overinflated nonsense. It's it's it includes goals and a vision for the future, um, but it's much more about purpose and what you really truly desire rather than what you think other people want from you. So it's like so you you you start that conversation. He works in in a large uh uh accountancy, one of the big four, and you know, he asks some people there who've been compliant all their lives, uh, you know, maybe he's working with them as a as their coach. And and and some of them will just, when he says, What's your direction of travel? You say, Oh, make partner. Now, you know, kind of okay. So, you know, and but unpacking what that actually means can be really useful. So working with people, you know, so you know, you I can I can imagine a conversation, you can probably imagine it much better than I, that that you know, you've got a bit of relationship going. So he said, you know, you're putting a lot of effort and money into into into being fit. Where's this taking you? What's your direction of travel? Where do you want to be in another year's time? Not not just into because the point about it is that you can't separate, I don't think, the work that you're doing from their ambitions in life and from and from their context and the people around them. So it's like, okay, so you know, I've I've got a really clear direction of travel at the moment. I'm I'm stepping out of a mobile learning app that I've been developing. I'm back in the world of executive coaching, I'm back in the world of speaking and writing, and I couldn't be happier. And I and it's like I know I'm I know where that that what that what that looks like. I'm not there yet, but it's like you know, within the next three years, I know what the clients are I want to be working with. I know that I want to be working three days a week. We're Joe and my wife and I are moving London, moving out of London, does a slightly different kind of lifestyle. So there's real clarity. And what it means is that the why it's important is you can ask people the question, then hold on, you know, what you're doing, is it taking you closer to or further away from your direction of travel? So if somebody isn't doing what they said or is backing off their commitments, or is, as you said, reversing a poll back out of it, then you say, Hold on a minute.
SPEAKER_03You know, we spoke earlier about your direction of travel. How is this helping you? Okay.
SPEAKER_01And you do it gently, gracefully, but it gives you a kind of a license to chat. If you know what that is, you can challenge people. I have a client who's uh set up an equity trading company, and she had a vision, and she was she was gonna she she was really clear, technology driven, great customer service, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And and was really clear, you know, this is gonna be me, this is my vision, my expression of me in the world. Oh, great. And then about six months later, I got a telephone call from her saying it's really exciting. My my elder brother and I had a conversation. The elder brother is a highly respected person in the field of finance in London, highly intellectual, very smart. He thinks what I'm doing is brilliant, and he'd like to come and join. And she's really excited, and I said, on no account. She goes, Because you see, you're not allowed to say things like that as a coach.
SPEAKER_02I said, Oh no, on no account. I said, No. Remember your direction of travel. And she went, Oh fuck. Yeah. I said, it's your vision. If he comes in, you'll take over. He's your elder brother for whom you have too much respect.
SPEAKER_04It's not yours anymore.
SPEAKER_01It won't be yours anymore. So I could only do that because I understood the direction of travel.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's what gave me the right to challenge the person. Not out of my macho or my smartness or anything. No, I understood that. And that's it. So so really, because you've I I know that physical trainers can be have great presence, physical presence. Uh, and some of the people they might be working with might not. So it'd be quite easy to impose something on somebody. Whereas if you've understood the direction of travel and you're now coming from an intent to really support them to see something clearly.
SPEAKER_04That's really interesting. Yeah. Because that is that does happen in our industry, doesn't it, Matt? I mean, you can the body shape of the trainer gets very tightly associated to their ability to coach somebody else, and it's it's not always the case.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, and that makes perfect sense. Why, when you've just said something like that, that the coaching skills need to be there as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Help the client with their direction of travel. I love that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. And that's the kind of conversation that you can have over time between you know, between reps and whatever else, and just, you know, kind of it's it's really gentle, just begin. You'll you'll give them it's such a service to people.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I I've taken, I don't know about the listeners, but me personally, I think I've taken four or five golden nuggets from this conversation that I'm going to use in my own business, to be honest, um, Miles. So I'm extremely grateful for this conversation today. And uh not sure if we have any more questions on our list, do we, Matt?
SPEAKER_00Well, the final thing is that Miles mentioned there that he was he was sort of moving out of one area now and and heading in a slightly different direction again, Miles. So just just give us a an idea of what what that's going to look like. Because I know that after speaking with you today, there's going to be quite a lot of people in our industry that that want to look out for what you're doing and and and see where you're heading next.
SPEAKER_01Well, the the so um there are kind of there are two and three or two and a half parts to it. Um there's a another book coming out, which is going to be called, I think, the enabling manager, which is that we you know we've grown up in a culture of command and control, which is the kind of predominant management style, the boss is in charge and you do as you're told. And we're trying to get things something to move from command and control to align and enable. So align means that there's an alignment between the individual and the organization, that that what the organization does has some meaning for me, that what I contribute, what I can contribute, is a valued contribution to the organization. That's the alignment piece. And the enablement piece is essentially the coaching piece. So it's about bringing the the that that idea into the manager's role. And it's it changes that that that book will come out, and that will that will be I'll be promoting that and and doing some work that comes off back of it. What's what's most exciting is that um I'm uh the focus of my coaching is on leader performance, so not leadership development, leader performance, the individual helping. So I'm I'm what what what what what uh that's about is working with individual leaders in businesses or you know, either the CEO or somebody in the C-suite or somebody who's leading a part of it and helping, and and it can be big or small, I'm not you know um uh and helping them deliver the results they want to for themselves and for their business and for their people. That's that's one thing. And the other is that there's there's there's this kind of work where you know integrating coaching into different people's lives, uh, different kinds of professions. And the the second book was called Enabling Genius, and there's a lot of stuff in enabling genius, which is a distillation of what it takes to really express yourself and and achieve the results you want in the world. So the other part is is kind of getting that, do more work on that and speaking about that. And yeah, it's you know, it's it's it's it's called having fun, I think.
SPEAKER_00Sounds fantastic, sounds really good.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and there'll be plenty of people rushing out to get those books as well. And I'm gonna grab as much as much of that material as I can myself.
SPEAKER_01So uh so yeah, as as we've already as we've the thing that I want to acknowledge in this conversation is is one, how how fantastic you two have been at picking up a strange Irishman's kind of ideas and translating those into really specific things that will make sense for your for for your listeners. So I really acknowledge your capacity to understand and translate. Um, and that I think you did a really great job with that.
SPEAKER_00It probably shows that me and Paul have spent far too much time with personal trainers, Miles.
SPEAKER_01I think it's more going on than that. There's intelligence and intuition at work here as well.
SPEAKER_00So it's been uh it's been absolutely brilliant today, Miles. Really, really enjoyed that. And me and Paul say it in many of our episodes. We just love bringing people in and sort of exposing our audience to people that unfortunately they've probably not come across before because you know, a lot of our industry lives within its own bubble, um, which is something myself and Paul are trying to change. We're trying to make sure that people expand their horizons and look elsewhere and bring ideas into the industry to improve it. So it's great to have someone like you in to help us do that today. It's it's fantastic. Um, so thank you very much for coming along and thank you for sharing some of the amazing work that you're doing. It's it's brilliant.
SPEAKER_01It's a real pleasure and my thanks. And and just know that if I can help in any way, you can seek me out.
SPEAKER_00This particular episode might have finished, but our help and support doesn't end there. If you need anything from myself and Paul, you've got any questions, you've got any feedback, you want some support, then please do not hesitate to reach out and ask for help. You can find myself over on Instagram at Matt RobinsonPT. And if you follow me there, you will get all the latest updates to the most recent episodes, guest interviews, and anything related to the Profit Podcast. You really can reach out for anything, whether it's just to give us a bit of feedback or ask a simple question. Your feedback and questions help us shape the future of this show. So if you enjoy the show and want it to continue, why not be part of its creation by giving us some help to poll and ideas? If you've enjoyed the show so far and not just this particular episode, then please feel free to head over to be always tuned in. So hit subscribe.