Redesigning Life with Sabrina Soto

Strategies for Dealing with Manipulative Individuals with Rebecca Zung

• Sabrina Soto and Rebecca Zung • Season 1 • Episode 68

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Can highly intelligent individuals still fall prey to toxic relationships? Rebecca Zung, a seasoned attorney and expert in narcissism and negotiation tactics, joins us to share her personal and professional experiences. Despite her success in family law, Rebecca found herself ensnared by a narcissistic business partner, offering a real-life lens into the complexities of these harmful dynamics. We uncover the spectrum of narcissistic traits and the crucial distinction between common narcissistic tendencies and true narcissistic personality disorder, a serious condition recognized by mental health professionals.

In this insightful episode, we explore the battlefield of emotional warfare in narcissistic relationships. Rebecca sheds light on how childhood trauma can result in narcissistic injury, leading to irrational behaviors and significant emotional damage. She emphasizes the necessity of recognizing these patterns and understanding the limitations when it comes to changing another person.

Finally, we dive into the psychological toll of toxic relationships with narcissists and provide actionable strategies for managing interactions. Rebecca explains manipulative tactics like DARVO, the addictive nature of narcissistic behavior, and its severe consequences on mental and physical health. Rebecca Zung, a negotiation expert and author, also shares invaluable resources for those entangled in challenging negotiations with narcissists. Don't miss this episode packed with expert advice and essential tools to reclaim your power and peace.

Chapters

00:00
Introduction and Personal Connection

03:11
Understanding Narcissism and Narcissistic Supply

08:07
Gaslighting and Cognitive Dissonance

13:01
The Formation of Narcissists and Their Inability to Change

24:12
Breaking Free from Narcissistic Relationships

26:02
Walking Away from a Narcissist

28:00
Making a Plan for Conversations

30:33
Questioning Your Own Behavior

32:25
Impact of Narcissistic Relationships on Health

36:08
Trauma Bonding with a Narcissist

39:18
Dealing with Smear Campaigns

41:32
Recognizing Gaslighting

44:46
Building Leverage in Negotiations

47:31
Resources for Dealing with Narcissists




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YouTube đź”—https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnhT4fBE1OWOn7c0Quxdf4w 


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#narcissism #negotiating #rebeccazung


Speaker 1:

Hi, I'm Sabrina Soto. I believe the best conversations are with friends who are really able to open themselves up and share their lives, both the good parts and the bad. You're going to be listening to some of those candid conversations and hopefully gaining some insight to help you redesign your life from the inside out. Welcome, rebecca, to Redesigning Life. I am so excited to have you on and for reasons you have no idea about, but I'm going to tell you obviously. But for listeners who are just tuning in, they may already know you, because you are an attorney by trade, but you are an expert in narcissism and negotiating with a narcissist.

Speaker 1:

So, first of all, thank you for being on the podcast. I have so many questions for you, but I'm going to tell you a funny story. Well, it's kind of funny, but not funny. So when your people reached out to me on the podcast, it was like this strange feeling that came over my body because I know your face so well only because I was in a relationship with a potential narcissist and I would watch your videos nonstop. So when I saw you know your name and your face, it was like this. I got like swept back into that time in my life, and it's been years, but I'm sure people feel that way about you, like they just have to ingest as much information as possible to kind of unravel their lives. Do you feel that way?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and first of all, thank you for sharing that with me. So I'm glad that you are no longer in that relationship.

Speaker 1:

So that's good yeah.

Speaker 2:

And it is true, you know it's funny because I can only imagine what it's like, for you know, real celebrities. I'll call it, you know, because when people do recognize me, which happens actually fairly a lot, I will say that you know the reaction is very emotional and you know I really try to hold space for them and honor them, because you know I'll see them in airports or at Costco or on the Strand down here or you know crazy places, and and they're they do. They're like, can I hug you? I'm going to start crying, um, you know, and and it is because they, they feel like they know me or that I, I've carried them through a really difficult time in their lives.

Speaker 1:

So, yes, I feel like you were my best friend at the time. I just kept listening to your information and watching your videos because I felt so lost and I felt so embarrassed and I'm sure you get that a lot. But embarrassed because it's like how can somebody and I mean I think I'm smart, but how can I, like I'm a smart girl, like how did I get stuck in this gaslighting trauma bond? You know what.

Speaker 2:

So I ended up in it and this was after I had built one of the top family law practices in Florida and then I ended up with a narcissistic business partner. And so you know, that's why I always tell my story and I always say they don't attach themselves to you because you have so little value, they attach themselves to you because you have so much, yeah, yeah, I mean. And so I always tell people exactly what happened to me. And you know, because I don't, I want people to get rid of that shame and blame and all of that, because, think about it, it's why would a narcissist want to devalue the clearance rack Right Special? They want to devalue something that has value.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so, yeah, so for people just listening, you're an attorney and I'm sure you have to deal with narcissists all the time, but I do feel like there's this trend that everybody calls everyone a narcissist these days. Yeah, so how I feel like everyone is on the spectrum, but yes, everyone's on the spectrum. And then I want to ask you about something else later on, about when people, when you start thinking you're, you're, you yourself are a narcissist. But so if everyone's on the spectrum, then are we all narcissists?

Speaker 2:

Well, no, no, we're not all narcissists, but we all have narcissistic traits, or you know? I mean I would say that there's narcissistic personality disorder all the way at the end of the spectrum. That's the person who has the disorder and it is a legitimate personality disorder that is recognized by the DSM-5, which is what psychologists, mental health people, people that they're that's what they use to to diagnose, clinicians use to diagnose. So if you take, I always say that's one end of the spectrum and if you want to go to the other end of the spectrum, you have Jesus or Dalai Lama or whoever it is that you want to say is on the other side, right. Then the rest of us fall somewhere in the middle or somewhere on the other along the spectrum, right.

Speaker 2:

And if you feel sick or you're feeling particularly tired or selfish that day, you might be a little further toward the end of the spectrum. So we all kind of have traits and tendencies toward it. It's when you're sort of creeping toward the end of that spectrum that you're going to have more shame, more pain, more. It's that lack of empathy, it's that complete shame, it's that most pain, it's that person who feels totally and completely empty inside, that person who has to get all of their sense of value from external sources, because they feel completely small inside and so they just can't see anything but themselves, and that's why they don't have any sense of empathy.

Speaker 2:

It's like having the worst possible toothache or something, and so when you have a really bad toothache, all you can see is yourself. You can't see anybody else, and so there's this black hole inside of them and it can never be filled, and so they constantly try to fill it with what is called narcissistic supply. I like to tier it between diamond level supply and coal level supply, which is external. Diamond level supply is image, reputation, anything tied to that, so it could be the celebrity friends, it could be social media following social media following, of course, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

It could be the trappings of you know what your house looks like, or the, the, the, what you're wearing, or anything like that. Right, your, your friends, who you're, with anything that is tied to image or reputation. It could be your new girlfriend, the new thing, whatever, so. But then there's what I call the coal level supply, which is manipulation, putting people down to make themselves feel better. Rage. It could be the smearing of you, you know, bringing the army together, the flying monkeys, and it could be also in a negotiation. Why they constantly move goalposts? Because they enjoy the process of seeing you squirm. They constantly move goalposts because they enjoy the process of seeing you squirm. They enjoy that process of making you miserable, and that's that dark underbelly of narcissistic supply is what I call that, because it's that. It's that side that they don't necessarily want people to see, because they want everybody to think that they're so perfect and wonderful. Right, I know.

Speaker 1:

I know Now, okay. So here's a thing I've done episodes on narcissism before and I used all the terms flying monkeys, trauma bonds, gaslighting and I hate that. I even know what these terms mean. I wish I didn't, um, but I think a lot of people don't.

Speaker 1:

And so how, if somebody is stuck in a relationship, whether it be with a partner, a romantic partner, a family member this happens to a lot of the time where a mother or father is a narcissist, a boss, coworker two questions Does the person know that they're a narcissist? Do they know that they're manipulating you? And then, secondly, how do you stop yourself from believing their BS? Because that's was that I think, was hard for me, because of the cognitive dissidence of they'd be so nice and then they'd be so calculating and manipulative, and I would get confused like, well, which one's the real you Is the real, you the manipulation, or is the real you the nice, saint-like person? So how does somebody not fall for the manipulation when they're stuck in the middle of it, when they can't get out, if it is a boss or your mother?

Speaker 2:

They do inherently know that there's something amiss with inside of them. They do inherently know that, and so there's always something that they're trying to cover up. They know that they're wearing this mask, they know that it's this masquerade. They know that it's this masquerade and that's why they know that they're acting in a certain way to manipulate you. But it's not always necessarily conscious how they behave, but they do know that they're manipulating you. They do know that there are, that there's hidden secrets that they have. They do know that there's things that they're not telling you, that there's this withhold going on and that they're just trying to lure you in until they can get to a certain place, so that they don't have to constantly be doing this, because they're just trying to get to a place where they can start taking, because they really don't want to have to keep love bombing. So they do inherently know that. But is it always sort of conscious? I don't know, but you also sort of know too. I think I know for sure. I knew, I, I knew that there were things that weren't adding up Right, definitely saw the signs, yes, but you know, the thing is that they do choose people who are not necessarily and I'm going to just say this with all love and all no judgment, because, um, everybody's got their traumas, okay, everybody's got their big T's and their little T's of trauma.

Speaker 2:

And I say this with no, with so much love and so no judgment. I've done so much work on myself, love, and so no judgment. I've done so much work on myself, you know. And so I'm just going to say they know how to look for the open places, the vulnerabilities, they know where the doors are and they go in. So if there's a spot where they can, this person is going to not have boundaries and love, love, love on them and allow them to do certain things like lend them money and not necessarily have to pay them back, or, um, give, give, give and, and they'll be allowed to take, take, take.

Speaker 2:

In certain ways, I know, for me, I had a business partner where I ended up doing a lot of the work and I ended up being, you know, I had already had a brand to a certain extent, and this person came in with certain promises that introductions were going to be able to be made and, by putting her name on things, that she would be able to bring certain things, and these things never ended up materializing. And then she was going to work on certain aspects. She would be able to bring certain things, and these things never ended up materializing. And then she was going to work on certain aspects and then things ended up happening in her life. So I ended up doing a lot of the work and then this person ended up taking credit for it, and so they know how they can sort of attach themselves to people.

Speaker 1:

Did this person attach themselves to you after you've already done this work?

Speaker 2:

No, so this was before. Yes and so. But what happens is, you know, you get into these relationships and then you say, you know, well, we're going to divide up these tasks. Well, okay, this is going to be your part. Well, then things happen. Well, I had this family emergency. Well, then you end up being the empath. Well, I don't want to hold you to account because I know you've got this family emergency. Okay, I'll let you slide, because I don't want. I don't want to be the bad person, I want to be the good person. Of course, I'm empathetic to it, you know. And so you don't? You don't? You wind up having what I call leaky boundaries? Yeah, because you don't, you don't want to be the bad person, right, and you look for people like that.

Speaker 1:

Do narcissists always attach themselves to empaths?

Speaker 2:

Yes, I mean it's that symbiotic relationship because they are going to look for that kind of a person. And so, I know, for me as an attorney, I was always to the mat. You know, I would go to the mat for a person as an attorney and that's what made me a very good attorney, because I would fight and be a very, very good advocate for my clients. But in a business partnership I was much more, you know, what I would call codependent in a lot of ways, because I was, you know, I'll be, you know, as a friend and, and you know, even as a wife or whatever, I'm always very loyal, very helpful, very, you know. Okay, I'll do it, I'll help you, I'll be there, I'll be kind, you know. And so I ended up not in a good place for that and so I had to be very, you know, I ended up feeling very used and abused in that relationship. I would never let that happen again. Let me just say that now Same, my eyes are very, very open.

Speaker 1:

It took me years though years of healing myself and my childhood wounds and all of the codependency issues that I had, in order to not allow myself to get into a relationship like that again, and I did see a pattern of I would go, you know, I would fall for one after the other. It was like I was a magnet for it, and I think it took me doing, taking time for myself and healing myself, in order to now realize that I'm no longer attracted to or nor are narcissists, I think, attracted to me. But you talked about this in your podcast. It was one of your recent podcasts about the man who was caught in a hotel room with a woman who was his coworker and he was in there for hours and the wife had seen them and he said you know you're overreacting and I have to tell you it sounds like crazy, like, of course, girl, like wake up, but I've been in that situation.

Speaker 1:

There was a situation once that the person who I was dating told a mutual friend of ours that we were in my backyard and we got in a huge fight and I was screaming and, rebecca, I'm telling you I thought I was going crazy because I didn't remember it happening that way, but I like to self-reflect. So I remember one night, like that night, I was laying in bed like did it happen that way? Am I maybe going crazy? And then I realized I had a ring camera in my backyard and I watched the footage and none of that happened, None of it. So I had to show that footage to our friends to let them know, like I'm not crazy. This never happened, but thank God I had that footage.

Speaker 1:

But I can see how people get like caught up in the cognitive dissonance, the gaslighting, the you're crazy, you're overreacting, you're acting absurd and you start believing. You start believing it. And I can see how people feel like they're going crazy when they're in these relationships. And how do you help people unravel themselves from this? What do you call it? Emotional warfare, warfare, right, this what do you call it?

Speaker 2:

Emotional warfare, warfare, right, yeah, totally Well, there's a couple of different ways. One is the first thing that I explained to people is what actually formed a narcissist in the first place. I think that's really so helpful for people to understand, and that is that they were formed as a result of trauma and this was actually very, very eye-opening for me and that is that they were formed as a result of trauma to their brain at some point during childhood. And the way it was explained to me in the research is that when we are in stress as human beings, our bodies go into fight or flight, which is normal, and so our bodies emit hormones which are adrenaline and cortisol, which we all know. We're all aware of children, whether it's abuse or neglect, or witnessing abuse or divorce or whatever it is, but it's regular and it's continuous. Then the cortisol aspect it's actually the cortisol aspect, which is that stress hormone can actually cause a rested development in the limbic system, part of the brain which is that emotional center part of the brain which is in the middle part of the brain. So, while the cortex part of the brain, the outer part of the brain, which is the thinking and judgment part of the brain can continue to develop normally. It's that limbic system part of the brain that actually experiences a restive development.

Speaker 2:

So that actually is now called narcissistic injury. So what happens is when they become triggered, then they which can happen from anything that's verbal or nonverbal and it's not rational and it's not reasonable Then they turn on a dime, it's called splitting. And so then now that becomes triggered and it literally shuts the cortex down. It literally shuts down. And so now you're only dealing with that limbic system part of the brain and they literally become blind it's called narcissistic blindness and they literally become blind to the collateral damage that they can cause to others when they are in this state. And when that's when they're in this state, then if you look at the anatomy of the brain, it's so close to the memory part of the brain and the hippocampus and all of that they literally don't necessarily remember what they're doing and they don't know about the damage that they're causing. And even more frightening to me, even more frightening to me frankly, is that they will self-sabotage to hurt others.

Speaker 1:

Tell me more about that. How? What do you mean by self-sabotage?

Speaker 2:

they will and I saw this as a litigator, but I didn't understand this until now they will harm themselves in order to go after another person. So, in other words, if they want to take you down, they will take themselves down to take you down.

Speaker 1:

So like getting into a car accident or phase.

Speaker 2:

For example, what I would see as as a divorce attorney is a guy who would say I will burn my business to the ground so I don't have to pay you alimony. I will do whatever it takes so that I don't have to. You don't get this. I would have a guy who would say I'd rather pay you than her. So I would have a guy who was like paying me fees $200,000 over the course of five years or whatever it is, because he wanted to scorch the earth with litigation. So that's the kind of thing that I'm talking about.

Speaker 1:

You said this earlier and I think it's absolutely true, because if I look back at the relationships that I've had with these people, I knew, I knew in my gut and in my heart something was off, and I couldn't put my finger on it and I had no proof, I just something felt off and I think a lot of people listening to this can, if they're in the situation, can probably really, if they dug deep enough, can realize that they feel they felt like something's off too. But when you say, when you explain how a narcissist is born, I think a lot of people are listening and if they're in that relationship, they say okay, well then I could fix them, but you can't no you can't, and so that's why I say the very first thing once you understand this, you go okay, just start to see them as a toddler having a tantrum on the floor, cause that's bad for a toddler.

Speaker 1:

I had a toddler.

Speaker 2:

So it's hard enough to change yourself.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I think it's hard enough to change yourself Like I've. I've. I've been on this, you know, journey of self improvement for 20 years myself. You know all the way back to reading Celestine prophecy and all sorts of things. You know 20 years ago or whatever it was right, 25, probably 30 years ago. Now.

Speaker 2:

You know, and I can tell you that it's hard enough to change yourself. You know our brain is not wired for success, our brain is wired for survival. So you know you got to, like I always say, I can never leave my thoughts unsupervised. You know I've always got to be listening to something good or whatever inputs got to be good, because it's really hard to change your thoughts, it's really hard to to rewire your neural, your neuronal pathways right. You're not changing somebody who does not see a problem with their, their ways. They don't see a problem with their ways, they don't see an error in their ways, they're not self-aware. And so you have to take care of yourself. So I would say, put an invisible shield down around you. The very first steps I say step one don't run. Step two make a U-turn, step three break free.

Speaker 2:

Wait.

Speaker 2:

What do you mean? Step one don't run. Step. Step one don't run. Step two make a u-turn. Step three break free.

Speaker 2:

Wait. What do you mean? Step one don't run. Step one don't run. Is you put that invisible shield down around you? You start to say to yourself the very first step, the very first thing that you can do, because you're so used to retreating, you're so used to playinging, you're so used to playing defense, and if you're going to make it a 180 and start playing offense, the first thing you got to do is start to say what baby step can I do today? It's going to stop that retreat and start, stop the conditioning and that is one invisible shield down around you and start to say today, the first thing I'm going to do is say I am demanding respect. I don't care who you are, if it's your mom, your brother, your sister, your boss, your neighbor. Whatever interaction we're having, it's going to be with respect. So I like to give people just a few phrases, some catch phrases to use that are helpful. I have free phrases at disarmthenarkcom if you want them, and so I say you can say things like I can see that you're upset. We can continue this conversation later, when you've calmed down.

Speaker 1:

No, rebecca, I want to continue, right, if they say that no, no, I want to have this conversation now.

Speaker 2:

Okay. Well, this approach is not working for me. Well, too bad. Well then, I I'm not going to continue.

Speaker 1:

But do you? It's like that's narcissists. Don't take no for an answer If they're in a rage, you can just walk away, then you walk away.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for the feedback. Um, but I'll, I'll talk to you.

Speaker 1:

Narcissist is going to love that. Thank you for the feedback. Um, okay, sure.

Speaker 2:

I mean, what else are you going to say? Like right, Thank you for the feedback.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's what it's called Gray rocking right A gray rock.

Speaker 2:

That's it, you just that's it. I'm done here.

Speaker 1:

One thing I did learn is that, yeah, any, even if you respond with rage, whether you respond with anything, any response, they get supply, they get a high off of of turning you either in any, any reaction, right. So you response, they get supply, they get a high off of turning you either in any reaction, right?

Speaker 2:

So you know I always tell people don't respond with, you know, a higher, louder voice. Don't go lower. If anything, go lower. And then never use absolutes, never use always or never or anything like that. If they're late, you know 87 percent of the time, which is a lot, you know, just say you've been late 87 percent of the time, you know. You know, use your exact numbers, your exact figures, because that will help you. Never use profanity, never call them names, because they're always going to seize on whatever they can seize on. So use, be very, very specific, use specifics, use facts, stick to facts, you know, because whatever they can, they're going to be like oh, you just raised your voice, you just interrupted me, you just use that bad word, you just called me a name. So you have to be really, really careful when you are arguing with them or when you're having a conversation with them.

Speaker 2:

The other thing I tell people is to I say make it a plan, stan, right? So when you're going to have a conversation with them, have an agenda and a scope and a time limit ahead of time. Make sure they know about it ahead of time. So you know we're going to meet. We're going to meet for an hour and this is going to be the agenda and this is going to be the topic and this is going to be the place. And then, when they try to go off topic, you know, sorry, we're talking about this thing because they're going to try to talk about 15 different things, something from 10 years ago or something from whatever. No, we're talking about this and we're going to stick to the facts. Yeah, and when they hit, when you hit the time limit, go. Oh my God, this has been so wonderful. I just, I love talking to you. This is my favorite thing ever. But, sorry, gotta go.

Speaker 1:

But what happens if you're married to somebody? What if you're married to somebody? What if you're married to somebody like that? And and when your clients come to you? And I assume a lot of people find you on social media, which, by the way, for anyone listening, I will have Rebecca's contact information in the show notes her Instagram and her website, but and her podcast too.

Speaker 2:

Well, my YouTube is yeah, Rebecca's on dot TV is my YouTube.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I'll. I'll put it all in there, but if people are coming to you, do you always recommend that somebody get out of a relationship with somebody who can potentially be a narcissist?

Speaker 2:

Yes, if they can. I mean if they can. I do recognize that. You know I really try to be judgment free for people, you know. Meet them where they are. Be judgment free for people, you know, meet them where they are. I know that sometimes people are in financial situations or they've got children or you know. So I try not to make people feel bad or whatever. But if they can, definitely, yeah, you should.

Speaker 1:

Yes, of course, something that happened to me and it and I just got reminded because a friend of mine is going through a breakup and in all of the research that they are doing and all of the YouTube videos, it's like they're going through the same thing I went through years ago. They started asking themselves if they were a narcissist and they panicked. And I remember one night I was on, I was filming and I was out of town and I was listening to some video and I I, rebecca, it was like I started having a panic attack, like maybe I'm the problem, I'm the problem, maybe they're not the one. And it was this like sad, I was crying and I was reaching out to my therapist and I I. It must be pretty typical of people sometimes, if they're in a relationship, to start looking at a mirror and wondering if they're the problem. And does that happen a lot to your clients?

Speaker 2:

Yes, definitely, especially because what the narcissist does is something called DARVO, which is deny attack, reverse victim offender, reverse victim offender, which is they deny anything, any wrongdoing, and then they attack the victim and then they reverse it on them and they start smearing it to everybody, and then they start making so much noise about it that they make the victim seem like they're the offender. The offender, and so it is so triggering and it makes the person seem like their behavior was so horrible. And what they do is they use your reaction to their behavior as that, as what is the, the, the, the offending, behavior right.

Speaker 1:

They will trigger you to act like a crazy person. Then they will record that craziness and say look at how this person acts. Look at them. This is what I have to put up with.

Speaker 2:

Which brings me to something that I also wanted to talk about, which is what's going on in the brain of the victim, and that is the. It's a dopamine cortisol effect on the and it actually shrinks the hippocampus of the victim, and so it actually affects your memory, it clouds your brain. It really is CPTSD, and this is why I have a high conflict negotiation certification program, which I actually just started in July of last year. It's actually coming up on a year now, but I've certified about 200 coaches so far and you know I have more coming in every day, which is so awesome. I love it. And then I have breaking free power coaching on the back end, so my coaches coach people on the back end.

Speaker 2:

Um, and it's such a unique coaching program because we teach people how to deal with the drama, trauma and chaos and we teach people how to negotiate and it's just really, really empowering, because most people don't understand the mind of a person when they're coming in to negotiate and what they're dealing with. It's just so unique, this clouded mind. And you know clouded mind, yes, and you know judges or mediators or people they just go hey, you guys just need to work it out, and they don't understand that this person is so fragile and so triggered, and so they're barely eating, they're probably barely sleeping, they're probably barely functioning and barely holding it together and let alone, you know, focusing on what it is they need to be negotiating or what dealing with Right and, and it can cause autoimmune issues, it can cause their hair to fall out, skin issues, skin problems I mean all sorts of issues, and so the person that I'm with a friend of mine that's going through the breakup is sick like sick Sick and they think it has nothing to do with this relationship.

Speaker 1:

And it has everything to do with a relationship.

Speaker 2:

Yes. So what happens is that dopamine hits initially when that love bomb. It's not a regular relationship. When you first go in, you don't just oh me, it's so nice. It's like this massive dopamine hit because that high is so high and then the lows are so low. The cortisol is just that stress is so stressful. The cortisol is just that stress is so stressful. And then they come back with the massive high again and so what's going on in your body is just so. It's such a toxic mix, it's really really not good. And so that dopamine hit really not good. And so that that dopamine hit.

Speaker 2:

There's a study out of um Stanford University that was done by Robert Sapolsky on monkeys and it was actually um where these monkeys were. Um, I think they were. I think something similar to like a slot machine or something like that, where if they were, if they hit something, some kind of game or something, but you know they got the thing every single time and the reward came up regularly where they expected it, then nothing happened in their brain. They measured the dopamine levels in their brain. Then nothing really happened. I mean, it was like a regular measurement, it was like even right, but when it was variable, sort of like when you see a slot machine and you don't know what's going to come up. Right, it's variable.

Speaker 2:

What happened in the monkeys brains is that the dopamine levels rose to the level of cocaine Like, oh my God, oh my God, is it going to come this time? Is it going to come this time? Is it going to come this time? So then the monkeys would get this reward. So then the monkeys would get this reward. They would get this reward if they performed. And so it's the same thing that happens with narcissists. And it's the same thing, by the way, that keeps us addicted to video games on the phone like Angry Birds or whatever right. And that's what happens with narcissists.

Speaker 1:

It's this hot cold hot, cold, and so that's what actually causes the trauma bond. You talked about the love bombing. How long does love bombing in a lot of people's like? There is a difference between love bombing and a very healthy start of a relationship where you're just crazy about each other very healthy start of a relationship where you're just crazy about each other Sure. So how do you tell?

Speaker 2:

the difference? Well, because it's so, it doesn't necessarily add up. It's it's almost too good to be true, right, right. This person is just everything, a lie, everything. And it's too fast. Yeah, it's usually too fast. Like this person wants to let's get married in Vegas in two weeks, or let's move in together, or let's meet your family, or let's um become business partners immediately. And then, when you try to slow down, it's usually when you try to slow down that the person is like why, why should we slow down? Everything is great. We were meant to be together, we were soulmates. Uh, you know, and they're batting it away and you're seeing red flags. You are seeing red flags and and you yourself are starting to rationalize the red flags. Yes, and if you find yourself doing that, don't do that.

Speaker 1:

Don't anybody who's listening, just trust us, don't do that. Yeah, yes, whatever red flags are ignoring in the beginning, come to haunt you at the end. Um, I do, I. I was on a date with somebody a few years ago and it was like our two weeks into dating and he had said he loved me and I'm like, okay, I'm out, that's it. But um, low, okay, when you were talking about flying monkeys and smear campaigns, most experts in this field including you, I think say to ignore the smear campaign. But it's so hard, rebecca, when you're in, when you're being smeared, when people are saying horrible lies about you, to just ignore it, especially if it's it's affecting your inner circle of, maybe, coworkers. How do you handle it when you feel as if your life is falling apart and they're the culprit?

Speaker 2:

Well, I mean, the thing is I always say I always wear jade because I'm half Chinese, but never jade, never justify, argue, defend or explain, because the more you get down into the mud with them, then they go fishing, they go bait. And now you, now you're in it, now you know they, they pulled in, sucked in, dragged in because that's what they want and the people who are your true people are, they're going to know the truth and the the cream does really always rise to the top. If you are really good, you have integrity, you are excellent at what you do, it will always come out, but you do definitely want to make sure that you cover your bases. So always document, always document everything. I mean especially when you're dealing with a narcissist. So I mean, for sure, when you have a conversation with them, follow up with this is to confirm the conversation that we just had here's what we here was what was said or a conversation with anybody around them, anybody in their circle.

Speaker 2:

You know, I mean you definitely want to keep track of anything, because all the smallest things end up being great things. I always say thank you for the gift. Thank you for the gift Because you know, every time they ask for a change in a schedule or they don't show up when they're supposed to, or they inadvertently left you off an email chain or you know whatever. Just all those things add up to a something. They add up to a something down the road and so you just want to keep track. If it's at work, you know, and they're kind of smearing you in terms of care or something you know. This is what a covert narcissist might do. Oh, I'm so worried about Frank, and you know him coming in late a lot lately. I'm just so concerned I always call the covert narcissist the pearl grabbers just concerned the pearl grabbers just concerned.

Speaker 1:

It's so true. It's so true. I think the covert nurses are the scariest because they're so good at hiding. But but back to that story. I was telling you, if I didn't have that footage of what really happened in my backyard, I wouldn't have been able to show the truth, and I'm glad that I have that. But you're telling me I shouldn't even have show like proven myself to be innocent.

Speaker 2:

Well, it just depends on what you're trying to prove it to, you, know. I mean, is it, how important is it to you? Like, do you need to prove it in a court of law? Do you need to prove it to a boss? Do you need to prove it to you know?

Speaker 1:

or is it just a friend?

Speaker 2:

But yeah, so I mean, otherwise does it matter?

Speaker 1:

Yes, I think reputation does matter, don't you think?

Speaker 2:

Well, if it matters to a friend, sure, if it matters to somebody like that, absolutely. But other than that, it really doesn't matter, because people who are your friends are really going to know. Yeah, and and does it matter to yourself where you can go? Oh my God, I knew, I knew that that was the case, right, ok, that's really helpful for you. Yeah, but I mean, you know, the very definition of gaslighting came from the movie Gaslight.

Speaker 2:

You know, the very definition of gaslighting came from the movie Gaslight, where it was originally a play and then it became a movie, where the husband was actually trying to make the wife think that she was crazy and what he was doing was blowing out gaslights and she would say, wasn't that just lit? And he'd say, no, no, it wasn't, you know. And she was like I swear that was just lit. No, and that's where the word came from. And and so anytime you're questioning your reality, you're questioning was did I feel that? Did I say that? Did I? Then that's what gaslighting is. And so they're invalidating your senses in some way. So if they make a joke at your expense and you say, hey, that really hurt my feelings, oh, you're being so sensitive?

Speaker 1:

No, it was just a joke.

Speaker 2:

Well, that's invalidating you. It's invalidating your feelings, it's invalidating your sense in some way.

Speaker 1:

So all of that is gaslighting. How do you normally work with clients these days? I know you do have workshops that you offer online, which again I'll link to, but how do you? How do people mostly find you? Or is it usually because they're going through a really bad romantic relationship, or is it a family member? What is it usually?

Speaker 2:

Well, it is a divorce, because, you know, I teach you how to negotiate with narcissists, and so the way I teach it is through my slay method, which is strategy, leverage, anticipate and you. So you have to build a strategy which creates a vision of what you actually want and how to get where you want, and then take the action steps, which includes creating leverage. And so I talked about that diamond versus coal supply, and so they will protect diamond level supply no matter what. And the myth is, people think that they just want to win, but that's only taking into account diamond level supply. What they actually really want is both diamond and coal level supply. So what you have to do is build leverage such that you're threatening a source of supply that's more important for them to protect than the supply that they're getting from manipulating you.

Speaker 2:

So you have to take what I call the gifts in documentation, which are all the summaries and all of the things that said oh hey, I asked for a change in the schedule 15,000 times. Or I didn't pay you on time, or I didn't do this, or I didn't do that, or I didn't pay you on time, or I didn't do this, or I didn't do that, or I lied, or all the things that they do anyway, and put it together in a form of summary or whatever it is, and then threaten a source of supply that's more important for them to protect. And then you can put it in a format where you're presenting it to them in the form of hey, here's option A, which is what I want, or option B, which is going to be the hammer's going to get dropped on your head and you know that's what works. And then A is anticipate. Anticipate means you're anticipating the type of narcissist that you're dealing with, whether it's covert, grandiose, malignant and staying two steps ahead of them, or it's also anticipating that they're going to beat you, they're going to try to trigger you.

Speaker 2:

I give a narc toolbox of all different types of tools for people to deal with. And why is that? It's your mindset, and staying a hundred percent in your mindset, of winning and and staying offensive in your approach.

Speaker 1:

Rebecca thank you so much. It is wild to be talking to you. I'm glad that I've actually been able to have a face-to-face time with you under these circumstances, rather than years ago when I was just crying watching your videos Me too, Me too.

Speaker 2:

Well, you know. I feel like maybe it was manifested A hundred percent and um.

Speaker 1:

so why don't you tell people a little bit about where to find you, your website, if they're listening and they're driving, and your books? Your books a podcast. Your YouTube, instagram?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so my book is slay the bully how to negotiate with a narcissist and when which people. It's a USA today bestseller. People can buy it anywhere Books are sold Amazon, of course, but anywhere books are sold. My YouTube is RebeccaZung TV. They can also get a free Crush my Negotiation prep playbook at winmynegotiationcom if they want, and Instagram is my name at Rebecca.

Speaker 1:

Zung. Thank you so much, rebecca, for being here. I'm sure this is helping so many people. I know you've helped me. I know you've helped friends of mine, so I appreciate your time.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much, it was my pleasure.