Redesigning Life with Sabrina Soto

Breaking the Cycle of Codependency with Terri Cole

• Sabrina Soto and Terri Cole • Season 1 • Episode 77

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In this enlightening conversation, Sabrina Soto and Terri Cole delve into the complexities of high functioning codependency, exploring its traits, the importance of boundaries, and the impact of cultural influences. They share personal stories and insights on how to navigate relationships, empower others, and prioritize self-care. The discussion emphasizes the need for change, the challenges of letting go, and the journey towards emotional peace and balance.


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Too Much: A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High-Functioning Codependency

Speaker 1:

Hi, I'm Sabrina Soto. I believe the best conversations are with friends who are really able to open themselves up and share their lives, both the good parts and the bad. You're going to be listening to some of those candid conversations and hopefully gaining some insight to help you redesign your life from the inside out out. Hi, terry, hi, welcome, terry, cole, to Redesigning Life again. Since you were on my podcast, you and I have become friends and I read Boundary Boss, but too much. I had to go run upstairs and get it because it was in my bed.

Speaker 1:

I have like little ear, you know, like I've ear dog or dog eared it, but I feel like you should have named this book, dear Sabrina, this I honestly, terry. I think this book is amazing and I think a lot of people need it. So, before we get started on the book, because I have so many questions for you, thank you for joining us. Sure, boundary Boss was a book that I think changed my life and changed my sister's life a lot, and I feel like I've done so much healing in the last couple of years that I'm like I'm not a high functioning codependent, but I'm going to read her book anyway. And it was like, yeah, girl, nice try, because every story I feel like it's me. And I want to first talk about why I thought I wasn't codependent, because what's the difference between just being a nice person and being codependent and giving yourself away to every single person in your life? Uh-huh.

Speaker 2:

Well, here's the thing, being a nice person because I do get this pushback with people when we talk about HFC, high-functioning codependency. They're like hey, terry, maybe I'm just nice. Here's the thing If you can't not do it, whatever the it is, it is not you being nice. If you can't not do it, okay. Okay, it is a compulsive action. Okay, because if you're really being nice, that is a mindful, thoughtful you're doing something, but you've thought about it. Mindful, you're doing something, but you've thought about it. So much of what we're talking about, when we're such over givers and overdoers and we're, yes, people, and we're kind of people pleasers in our own way is it's just compulsive, it's just a reaction and, like any other compulsive behavior, it's not very mindful.

Speaker 1:

So, for those of you who are just understanding, this book is called Too Much a guide to breaking the cycle of high functioning codependency. And you told a story about one of your clients I think her name was Andrea remind, maybe I got the name wrong but how she was complaining about how every single thing in her life she had to do herself and that everyone else was not efficient and everyone else was expecting her to do everything. And I felt like you put a mirror right in front of my face because and I wait, I know I'm going to sound full of myself, so bear with me because I'm self-aware enough to know this is not going to sound right. But I feel like sometimes in my life, if I really don't do it, it's not going to get done right. And, by the way, when I've tried to just let it go and let somebody else do it, they do it wrong. And then everybody takes their sweet ass pimp time to do everything, when I can get it done in half the time.

Speaker 2:

So what does that mean? Well, part of it is that we are extremely efficient as HFCs. So let's establish so people who don't even know what we're talking about. Let's establish what is high functioning codependency. It is when you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the circumstances, the situation, the careers, the finances, the friendships of the people in your life, to the detriment of your own internal peace.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so it's actually taking a toll on your own life.

Speaker 2:

Yes, because here's the thing as mothers and lovers and friends, of course we care that the people we love are happy. We want them to be happy, obviously. So of course, we're invested in a normal way in their happiness when you're an HFC away in their happiness. When you're an HFC, you're overly invested because you feel responsible for other people's outcomes, which is not the same as caring about it, feeling responsible Like it's on me now to make it happen. I need to do it, and if I'll give you an example, let's say your best friend calls you with a problem.

Speaker 2:

If you're wondering if you're HFC, I'll ask you how quickly does your best friend's problem become your problem? You have to check your urgency. I'm not saying how quickly are you concerned about your friend? Of course we're concerned about our friend, but how urgent does it feel that you are literally putting down everything that you're doing to be like all hands on deck? We are getting this done. You're already like Googling shit. You're already texting a friend who knows a dermatologist. That's when you know there is a compulsive element to what you're doing. It's almost like no thought. Immediately, you're like this has now become my problem, that I need to fix.

Speaker 1:

Unless it's an emergency. In an emergency situation, you should probably drop what you're doing if a friend needs your help, but you're saying more in a day-to-day. My boss is on my nerves, kind of situation.

Speaker 2:

Even if your friend says I'm in a crisis, listen, if your friend is in a crisis, your first step is not let me fix it. Your first step needs to be what are you going to do?

Speaker 1:

Oh God, what? No? What am I going to do to help you? That's what I think.

Speaker 2:

But that's not correct. That's because you're an HFC. When you're not an HFC, what we do is we respect the sovereignty of other people, we respect the wisdom of them, even if they're fucking up. Right? Because here's the thing, babe Everyone has the right to succeed and fail, to thrive and flail, flail. We don't know what we're doing. But when you're an HFC, we don't want anybody flailing. We do not like that. We want to help. We want things to be neat. We want everything to be neat. We want everything to be peaceful. We want there to be peace in the Valley, peace in the bedroom, peace in the backyard, peace everywhere. That's what we want.

Speaker 1:

I don't want peace in the bedroom.

Speaker 2:

All right. Happiness and heat in the bedroom, peace everywhere else. There you go.

Speaker 1:

But wait, okay, I'm going to push back a little bit, because you're saying but hasn't there ever been a time in your life Like I know that there has been times in life where I was screwing up and friends of mine came and like slapped me upside the head and been like wake up, dumb ass. And then I'm like, oh yeah, okay, I need to wake up and I needed their objective point of view to kind of get involved to get me out of whatever mess I was in. So what? Isn't it sometimes helpful to get messy with other people? But here's the thing.

Speaker 2:

That's not what we're talking about we're not talking about. Sometimes, when you're in HFC, your first stop on the train is auto advice giving.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You immediately have an idea, a thought, a person, a connection, a book. You immediately are underlining something for them and texting the friend who's going to help them out and whatever, like the compulsive element, is the problem. And the thing is, what you don't realize when we're doing this is that we're centering ourselves as the solution to their problem. We're not centering our friend, which is what we need to be doing. We're centering us. I'm putting my cape on. I'm going to save you now. I'm going to tell you exactly what you're going to do and your life is going to be so much better.

Speaker 2:

And then we get the high of being the hyper helper that we are, and then the friend feels indebted, or the friend or the sister or the kid feels like a loser Because, once indebted, or the friend or the sister or the kid feels like a loser because once again, we needed to come in and save them, as opposed to. It doesn't mean you can't tell your friend what you think when you're done, but when we get into recovery from being an HFC instead of being an auto advice giver, you just learn to start by asking expansive questions. It doesn't. You know, sabrina, what you think your bestie should do is not nearly as important as what your bestie thinks she should do, even if she doesn't fucking know. You need to love her enough to be in the foxhole of the unknowing of being like. I love you enough to be here with you when you are unsure of what you should do. Okay.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yes, I see that. Okay, let's go back to Andrea, yeah, who basically just had a dumb bunch of dumb asses in her life and I'm only saying her name, andrea, because I know you've changed everybody's name and some of them are characters. So what happens if you, if there is a situation where you are more efficient than every single other person in your life?

Speaker 2:

Well, listen, efficiency isn't the do-all-end-all of life. There's nuance and life is messy, and love is messy and growth is messy. So it's not all about efficiency. And the thing is, my mother would tell you, sabrina Soto, if everything needs to be done your way, you'll end up like her, doing it all and doing it all alone. Oh God, okay, because nobody here's the thing.

Speaker 2:

When H and listen, I'm not judging, you know, I am this. This is why I wrote this book. I'm in recovery, but how do I know it so well? Oh, I lived it for decades. This book, I'm in recovery, but how do I know it so well? Oh, I lived it for decades. So there has to be.

Speaker 2:

You know, part of the HFC mantra is I got it, and another part of the mantra is it has to be me. Yes, like we don't trust other people, we don't like we have. So let's talk about some of the traits of what is it to be an HFC? All right, so feeling responsible to fix other people's problems, auto advice, giving, giving until it hurts, like going above and beyond, and a lot of times we're doing things that people have not asked us to do. Always ready to jump into damage control mode, uh, being kind of judgmental of others because deep down, we really feel like we are the only ones who know how to do anything right, getting frustrated and angry when others don't take our grade. A advice that we're so readily giving. What is wrong with you, betty, because it's good advice? It is good advice, but the thing is we don't know what other people's paths are. Yep, yep, right. What other traits being hyper independent? Yep, yep, right. Um, what other traits being hyper independent?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So this means we don't love to ask people to help us.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

We don't love to let people do things for us, to allow people. I remember when I was first dating my husband, he would, he would. He lived in Jersey, I lived in Manhattan and he would want to drive into the city to pick me up, to drive me back to Jersey to spend the night. And I was like that's not efficient at all, it makes no sense. I could just go to Penn and take a 20-minute train and you could just like why? And my mother was like Tara, why are you blocking him? He would always say I'm going to just hop in the car and I'll come scoop you up. He used to say my mother's like let him scoop you up, Like he wants to make your life easier to her. Why don't you allow?

Speaker 2:

And she said you know the joy that you get from helping everyone when you are a bad receiver. She's like I want you to picture it as you're that Vic is trying to hand you a blue box from Tiffany's and when you think of a logical reason not to take it, it's like you bashing it on the ground and stomping on it. Would you ever do that? And I was like obviously not, cause that's so rude. She's like exactly. So how about let him do something for you? It's not all, not all about efficiency. And I was like wow, how did you get so smart, jannicole?

Speaker 1:

So is it safe to say like, in our heads we're thinking that we're being the hero, the saver of our friends, but in essence it's really just our ego wanting to feel important. Listen.

Speaker 2:

I don't know about in our heads, because it is so compulsive and it is such a reaction that I never thought consciously I can't wait to save everyone. Like I was not like secretly whipping out my cape in my mind, I really wasn't, I didn't know how to do anything else. This was my go-to thing and, yes, did it make me feel important? Of course, did it make me irreplaceable in the lives of people? Well, I certainly thought it did with boyfriends, but of course it actually didn't. Yeah, but it's like I felt my value. So much of my value needed to be me adding value to someone else's life.

Speaker 1:

Well, but Terry, isn't that like, like in the book, you're like, you're enough, you're enough. And now I'm thinking if everyone was just worried about themselves and that's it, what kind of world would we live in?

Speaker 2:

But I love how you're so extreme and ridiculous, because we're not talking about people, everyone just thinking about themselves. We're talking about not over-functioning, not inserting yourself. I'm talking about more mutuality in our romantic relationships too, allowing the people who love us to do things for us. That is caring, right. That allowing surrendering that is caring. So it doesn't mean we don't. You're going to be the same exact person. You're just going to be healthier. Sabrina, I'm the same person that I was. I'm an empath, I'm an highly sensitive person and I'm in recovery from HFC, but I'm still have the same high antenna that I always had. I'm still dialed into everyone out there. You know, this is just the way that we are. The irony with high functioning codependency is that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it's still codependency. All of this controlling behavior that we're talking about, because, at its core, any kind of codependency is an overt or covert desire or attempt to control other people's outcomes. Yep, I see that.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Yes, right. And it's so much more loving when your, your, your partner, comes to you and says I'm not, I don't know what I'm going to do about work.

Speaker 1:

It is so much more loving to say, okay, tell me the situation, and then tell me what you think you should do. Oh, what I say, all right. Well, have you ever thought about calling so-and-so? Why don't you send an email right now? Actually, give me your laptop, I'll write it up.

Speaker 2:

Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So what in Terry Cole's life happened that you decided enough was enough?

Speaker 2:

I actually had this situation happen with my sister. One of my sisters was in an abusive relationship. She was actually she was actively alcoholic. The guy was doing crack. They lived in a house in the shack in the woods with no running water and no electricity and he was abusive. So if that's, not an.

Speaker 2:

HFC nightmare where it's a five alarm fire every day of your life, being like what am I going to do to get her out of there? So she would call me. She would tell me all the terrible things he was doing. I would hang up and start bawling my eyes out, call my therapist Like it was a whole thing. My winning formula was just like never give up. I'm just going to keep trying to get her out of there till I get her out of there, right? Isn't that loyalty? Isn't that love? Isn't that what you do if you're someone's sister? I mean, what other choice did I have? Is what I thought my therapist said?

Speaker 2:

Because I went into her and I was bawling my eyes out and I was like Bev, I've done everything. I don't know what your sister needs to learn in this life and how she needs to learn it. Yeah, and I was like well, I think we can agree. It doesn't need to be with a crackhead in the woods without running water. And she was like truthfully, I can't agree because I don't know what your sister needs to learn and how she needs to learn it. But do you know what's happening for you? And I was like obviously not. So help what is happening.

Speaker 2:

And she said, terry, you know you've worked for years in therapy to create a really healthy, harmonious life. Because I had just gotten married, I had three brand, I'm a bonus mom to three stepkids. I just quit my job, you know, I've just started my therapy practice. Stopping an agent Like my life was very full and very busy. And she said and your sister's dumpster fire of a life is really fucking with your peace. I mean she probably didn't say it exactly like that, but it's internally. It's creating pain for you and the truth is you really want your discomfort and pain to stop. Yep, and I was like you are not lying, bev, you are not lying, that is true, I do. Now that changes, changes the lens a little bit, because I kind of thought of myself not like mother Teresa, but maybe a little bit. I was like I'm just a loving, caring, empath, like that, you know.

Speaker 2:

And then when I had to look at it like I'm really trying to, I see her as a problem and I'm really trying to problem solve so I can get back to my regularly scheduled programming of my life. This is disruptive to me and I do not appreciate it. So I said, well, I don't know what. What do I do instead? And she said boundaries. And I was like what's that Cause I was 25 or whatever it was, and I was like I don't even know what a boundary is. And she said you don't have to talk to your sister about this guy and you can tell her that you'll be there if she wants to get out. So I did exactly that, which was very hard to do. I was bawling my eyes out. I felt so guilty. She totally understood. My sister got it and I said but I'm here.

Speaker 2:

So we talked a couple of times, but it was about nine months. So instead of talking like once a week, we were talking. Not, I only spoke to her probably three times or twice in that whole time, and I was worried, of course, and yet I was busy and had my own life. She called me and said are you still my person? And I was like getting in my car, picked her up, she went back to school. She got sober.

Speaker 2:

My husband and I helped her in a way that was appropriate we could help her. We had this little teeny lake house in upstate New York that was like they call them camps. We had to winterize it. It was not even winterized. But she got to live there for free for two years. We paid all the bills so that she could get on her feet, go back to school, stay sober, and she did so.

Speaker 2:

Here's the thing In the end, if I had gotten her out of there my way by hook or by crook, forcing her, guilting her, whatever I had to do, I would be the hero of her story me, her youngest sister. But instead, because I respected her autonomy, she gets to be the hero of her own story and she got all the self-esteem that went with saving herself. And I had to tolerate the way that that felt for me for the months that she wasn't doing it, because it wasn't my side of the street, because it's her life and because, even if she's doing it badly, it's her right, as I said before, to flail. But we don't like anybody flailing. And yet it's not our right to stop on someone's boundaries or to it's. People have a right to their autonomy, to be self determined and self-directed, even if it's not what you think they should be doing Right.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So then there are times that you need to show up for family or friends, when they need you to show up for them, that maybe you don't want to, and I'll just give you a personal example. Like, there have been times that I have not wanted to attend a something or go to a dinner party or whatever, but it was important to my friend for me to say yes when I really want to say no and I want to watch golden girls in my pajamas. That doesn't mean necessarily I'm a high functioning codependent. That means that I'm just showing up for my friendship, is that right?

Speaker 2:

Here's the thing the I'm going to give you two questions that you can ask yourself before you do anything. Okay, yeah, Tell me, I love this. Number one can I do this without becoming resentful? Can I say yes to my friend's dinner party without becoming resentful? If the answer is yes, then you're being a good friend. You kiss the golden girls goodbye and off, you go to the dinner party. Okay, number two do I even fucking want to do this?

Speaker 2:

Like you will have people as HFCs, we are very influenced by what other people want. Yes, we are high functioning people pleasers. So what happens is someone else wants us to do something. A lot of times we don't even think about whether I want to do it at all. Right, we're just like I feel pressure because they want me to do it.

Speaker 2:

So this is where all of the I have a whole chapter on emotional self-regulation so that we can slow everything down, so that we can get our nervous system in a place, so we can buy time. We don't have to give anyone an immediate answer. We ask ourselves do I want to do this? And if the answer is a resounding no, you allow yourself to say no. Sometimes it might be a resounding no, but because it's something Vic really wants to do. My husband of 27 years, or my sister, I may say yes, but I do it consciously, mindfully. I don't do it as a knee-jerk reaction. I don't do it as a compulsive behavior, which is why you can only get into recovery from this behavior. There's no curing it. It's just like drinking. I stopped drinking when I was 21. Do I want a glass of wine once in a while? Sure, do I have it? No, that's the difference. That's being in recovery. So it doesn't change. Will you still want to give auto advice to the people in your life? Probably yeah. The difference is we just, most of the time, slow down and listen. This is good, better, best, right.

Speaker 2:

If you slip back and you gave someone auto advice, so what right? It's not the end of the world. It's the way you were doing it all the time, and now you're just doing it less because it deepens the intimacy in your relationships. It's what holding space actually means. I don't know what anyone in this space thinks it is, but what holding space for someone is means that I'll be with you and not fix you. I'll ask you a question and shut up so you can tell me what you think you should do, and even if you don't know, I'll ask you other probing questions. So maybe we can get to something about you, because it's not about me.

Speaker 2:

So if you look at the auto advice giving, being overly self-sacrificing, auto accommodating, right, where we see something out in the world and we're like, oh, do you guys want to sit together? I'll move, no problem. Like you know, we're online and we only have oh, my gosh, that's me, of course, and the guy in front of us has, the guy behind us has two things and we have 10 and the 15 or less line and we're like you go ahead, we can, but that's a different. That's a distinction too between regular codependence and high functioning codependence is that we can be codependent with the world, I mean with strangers. I literally opened the book with a story of when I was 22.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, with that guy. You let come home with you. What are you crazy, I know, I hope he was cute.

Speaker 2:

He was not and I wasn't bringing him home to do him. I was bringing him home because I was afraid it was going to get mugged in Penn Station. But it's like I didn't even know this kid and that was you know the story.

Speaker 1:

That's how Dateline episodes start, terry. It's so true, it's so true.

Speaker 2:

Good.

Speaker 1:

Lord.

Speaker 2:

Oh my God, my mother read that she was like you did what? Yeah, you're nuts.

Speaker 1:

So what is in the soil that grows HFCs?

Speaker 2:

I mean, listen, let's just start with the patriarchy, shall we? We can, because there's a whole. It's societally sanctioned for us to do all the things for other people. So there's that. We're also raised in families and cultures where girls should be nice. You should be helpful. You should be helpful, you should be kind, you should be someone who would give the shirt off your back to anybody. The more self sacrificing a woman is, the better.

Speaker 1:

My grandmother, my mom. I mean I'm cute, both my parents are for Cuba, my whole family's from Cuba. But in the Latin culture we're told that you know, everybody comes before us. But even like we're saying societal, like in in at least our, the school that Olivia is in my daughter, when there's an emergency they call me first. They always call the mom first. Yeah, so we are kind of the one who's like you called, you talked about in your checklist. One of it is like are you the primary parent? Yeah, of course I. Yeah, I think most moms are the primary parent to do yes.

Speaker 2:

And it's like the designated parent when you think about what that? Means it means for all you know where the kid is at all times. Yes, if you have a child and you were at the gym and you don't know where they are, you're probably not the designated parent, because the designated parent definitely knows where they are.

Speaker 1:

But okay. So let me, let's talk about parenting. Is that okay? Let's, a lot of my friends and I'm guilty of it too it's like okay, fine. So if we're not, let's say, I'm going to give a personal example. Olivia's birthday is coming up and I plan the birthday party and I plan the favors, and I plan the favors for her classroom, and I got her outfit ready, but you're like well don't, well don't, with your sexy voice. And then I'm going to go well, if I don't, it won't get done. And then guess, who's screwed is Olivia.

Speaker 2:

No, but here's the thing Kids are different. So let's especially when you are a single parenting, kids are different. Now you can empower Olivia at her age to do plenty of things. She can do plenty of things.

Speaker 1:

She's nine. She's going to be nine this weekend.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yes, okay, she's going to be nine. That's so funny. I've known her for two years now, anyway. So you can you can not do everything for her, because we don't want to infantilize our children. We want them to feel what it feels like to be able to do things. They let them be proud of themselves. So you can give her, let her take a stab at getting her outfits together. Okay, you can. You know, you can start to. It's like there's a certain point in kids' lives when they can make their own lunch, when they can do their own laundry, like that's, it's possible now, only age appropriate stuff though. So I won't, I wouldn't say for the things with Olivia, the things that need to get done for kids, listen, they have to get done, and, if you're right, but that's one thing a lot of parents who are even two parent households.

Speaker 1:

It's if it doesn't get done by one parent, the other parents like oh, it's no big deal, then the kid doesn't get the party. So how does that parent? Who is that primary parent or not primary? But you know, the designated parent let go some of the reins when the other one doesn't really necessarily want to pick up the slack.

Speaker 2:

Well, part of it is that's a very, that's a complicated situation when you're talking about an ex, so there may not be a fix for that, because that person doesn't have a lot of motivation to do it besides you asking.

Speaker 1:

But what about the people who live with their partner and they're still married?

Speaker 2:

There is a whole conversation that has to happen about emotional labor.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And even if you haven't had it, this can be the beginning. You're allowed. You know the boundary boss bill of rights, Number three says you have a right to make mistakes, to course, correct or to change your mind, Right? So if you're waking up now and saying, holy shit, I'm doing all the things and all the places for all the people and my partner doesn't help and doesn't want to help and isn't interested, that's a problem and it might be a deal breaker of a problem. You have to decide quality of life and you've trained these people. That's right.

Speaker 2:

Now it's your job to untrain them. Well, you talk about this in the book.

Speaker 1:

Like we. There are going to be people that get upset with you when you change your mind, but we're the one who trained them. We're the ones who created these monsters, so how do it's like it's our responsibility.

Speaker 2:

No, it's only half. It's only 50 you and 50 them. So when you over-function and someone under-functions, that's still their 50%. But you're right, Our behavior, we have taught people how to treat us, but now we must do the painstaking work of training them differently, of teaching them that something is changing and that you are changing and that you expect more help. Let's just say, for example, you're in a family situation where you've been the one who's done all the holidays.

Speaker 2:

I had a client who was like this and she started getting healthy and was like I just I don't know why I felt compelled to do it all. It's so ridiculous. I hate the holidays, I never enjoy it because nobody ever helps. I do all the dishes, I do all the cooking, I pay for everything. Like it's so unfair and nobody cares because I've always just done it.

Speaker 2:

And so we came up with a plan that year and she said sent out a notice to all the people who usually come. That she's. You know that it's going to be different this year. She's changing things up because she's trying to get back a little bit of bandwidth for herself. So she's trying to get back a little bit of bandwidth for herself. So she's doing all of the gatherings? She will. She will do two of them, not all, only two, and it'll all be potluck. So let us know she's going to make a turkey and then who's bringing. Let us know we need desserts, we need sides, we need bread, we need. And some people were like, wow, look at you and she. Here's the thing when we change and somebody notices, we can't be like all butthurt and defensive and thin skinned and, like boohoo, they noticed.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, did they come to the things? I bet you nobody showed up. Oh no, they came.

Speaker 2:

They came and anyone who didn't or made an excuse, she didn't care, right, she was like it's okay, cause she still did the turkey. I mean, come on, it was still. That's the hardest part. But the point was she changed her mind and what she did is she was teaching them that they were going to relate to her differently. And then she also was like we're also doing cleanup crew for everyone ages 15 to 25. Yeah, and they did it Cause she was like here's the thing, you know who?

Speaker 2:

I don't work for you, motherfuckers, I do not work for you. This is all voluntary, right? And I think that, even if you feel like you've painted yourself in the corner, I promise you there's a way out. This book is your way out. One next right action at a time. I have a whole little starter kit for you. Go to terricolecom forward, slash HFC. It's a little starter kit. You can get the book at hfcbookcom with all of the bonuses. It's also sold everywhere. Fine books are sold. But you guys and I also have this amazing community where I'm walking people through this. We're doing a book club, so you can also go to my website and check that out if you're interested in that.

Speaker 1:

Because listening if you're listening to this and you're like me that I thought I was doing so much better Once I started reading the book and listening to you cause you sent me the audio book this morning I it's more. It's eyeopening. It's really eyeopening to see how many things that I am doing that I didn't think were that bad that are. And you know it is exhausting and I think that that's why we are all sort of burnt out and exhausted in our lives is because we're just overdoing.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and here's the thing. Let's talk quickly about what's on the other side. Because you got to get motivation, like what? Why do I want to get better from this affliction and this behavior? Well, first of all, because you don't want to get sick. Yeah, because this absolutely leads to burnout, tmj, autoimmune disorders, insomnia Like I've seen so much in 27 years as a therapist, where the burnout is real and the bitterness.

Speaker 2:

If you do this for too long, you end up such a martyr. You're so pissed at everyone because you just feel so taken advantage of. And the thing is, you can turn this ship around. There is so much expansion, relaxation, peace, like emotional peace, like right now. Just take a deep breath, relax your shoulders and imagine just feeling this way, because you allow people to help you, because you let the chips fall where they may, because you learn what is and isn't your responsibility. Right, because what we do, to do the things we've done when we're high-functioning codependents, it requires us to self-abandon to an extreme degree, even if we look like we have it all together. Do you see why this is so insidious? Is that HFCs? We're successful, we look good, yes, like we. We keep it together, we work out, we make sure we get our roots done. We are going to soul cycle, we are drinking green juice, we are. You know what I mean. We're doing all the things. I mean do I know you or do I know you?

Speaker 2:

And that's not just seriously but there's so much more happiness when you don't feel overly responsible for things that you will never, you know. The end of the end with the sister story is that Bev said to me my therapist, terry, listen, I'm not telling you you shouldn't save your sister, I'm saying you can't. That is actually an impossibility. Even if you force your way in and rip her out of there, she's not getting what she needs. She didn't reach the point she needed to to want to make these changes for herself. It's just a bandaid You're actually prolonging the more money you throw at her. The more things you do to try a bandaid You're actually prolonging the more money you throw at her the more things you do to try to fix it. You're literally prolonging her pain in purgatory and hell Because you need that terrible feeling, that rock bottom desperation to move.

Speaker 2:

Now, if my sister, if this was about heroin or something different, all bets would be off I would have done an intervention.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I'm not saying that there aren't moments, as you said, where we do still step in the point, though your entire life will change if you just stop auto advice, giving auto accommodating right, if you stop over functioning.

Speaker 2:

Those things will absolutely change your life and your relationship for the better, and there's just so much more joy when you start pouring into yourself your dreams, what you want to create in the life and you need bandwidth to do it. I'll say about the cost of HFC and I've seen it over and over is that if we don't get into recovery, there's a glass ceiling of our own making. That happens in our lives, when it comes to our success, when it comes to our relationships, because we are bleeding so much bandwidth. Yeah Right. If you can't say no to prioritize, let's just say you have an important presentation that you're doing, but your friend really wants you to come to her standup thing that starts at 11 the night before. You have to say no to your friend, even if she's sad, because you being at your best for that presentation is your dream, right? That's the building block of your dream, not?

Speaker 1:

your friend's dream you can send your friend flowers, right?

Speaker 2:

That's the building block of your dream, not your friend's dream. You can send your friend flowers right you can. You can be like I'm so proud to have somebody film it. There's a we can stay lovingly connected to people without controlling them, without managing them, without feeling like they can't handle their feelings. Let me disappoint you because you're going to disappoint people If you're going to live your real life, and you have to be okay with that, because if not, it's you endlessly disappointing yourself.

Speaker 1:

And then sister, right, okay, you. You just to touch on something you said earlier. I thought about it is that I've been scared of becoming the new version of Sabrina that doesn't say yes to everything and I will disappoint people. And then I'm like, but I've been friends with that person for X, many years and now they're going to see me changing and they're not going to want to be in front anywhere. Then let me just be that old version of me for them, but I'll be the new version of me for and it's like this. But then I realized, like you know what, if that old person doesn't like the new version of me, that doesn't make them a bad person. That just means that their chapter in my story is over.

Speaker 2:

Correct, and not all friendships are forever. Sometimes friends are to teach us these lessons we need so desperately for us to fulfill our dharma. So my feeling is don't look at the end of a friendship or a relationship as a failure. It just means your time with that person is done and it's okay. Like I wrote a whole thing about, you know friendships that you know how a lot of times we'll stay in relationships and by historical handcuffs, yes, yes, yes, because we have history and we feel like we're HFCs, are very loyal, but we can be loyal to a fault.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

We're loyal to people who don't haven't earned it or don't deserve it, like it's okay to outgrow a friendship. It literally is If you have nothing in common, if you don't want to be with them anymore, if it's an obligation. If you look at your phone when it's them and you're like, oh shit, like the last thing I want to do is talk to this person that's telling you something. Listen to that. Yeah, save the VIP section of your life for the people who fuel you, who nourish you, who nurture you, who you can allow to do for you as well as you doing for them. Not just any old person who wants to mosey in and take a seat. That's a lot of people got to be in the mezzanine.

Speaker 2:

A lot of people got to be in the mezzanine. A lot of people shouldn't even be in the venue.

Speaker 1:

I would slow clap right now if it wasn't annoying for people listening to the podcast. I think it's so true. As a matter of fact, I have a friend of mine that I was since I was 19 years old that I'm no longer friends with, and I saw something about them a few weeks ago and I wish them well, but I'm so glad they're not in my life anymore, because it's also allowed for room for other people. So you're right, we are loyal to a fault. And then, on top of that, I'm a Capricorn. It's like I am loyal to no end, and it's sometimes the person doesn't deserve that. Some people don't deserve to be in the venue.

Speaker 2:

They don't and it's to your detriment. And the thing is the same way that you protect Olivia, you have to protect you, babe, I know, I know. Because, if not, she's not going to do what you say, she's going to do what you do.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's right, terry, I've said this to you before. But if this whole like author therapist thing doesn't work out, you should be as like, do like 1-800-SEX numbers, because your voice is so good, your voice is so good, I love it. You know, you always have plan B.

Speaker 2:

Plan B, I love it. Be a sex phone worker. Yes, please. 1-800-sex.

Speaker 1:

No, that's not enough digits. Yeah, that's right, terry, I could talk to you for hours. This is going to continue on a new venture. I'm working on a new show. Terry is going to be on the show which I'm so excited about, which I will also be announcing soon. So I will see you soon on that. Thank you for your time. Everybody who's listening get the book much. It is so good. It is actually like mind blowing for me. I think it's mind blowing for a lot of women, if not people, in this world who are just doing, doing, doing, and we are. We're on this like rat race, this hamster wheel, and it's time to get off.

Speaker 2:

Yes, it is my friend. Well, I love you. Thank you so much for having me. I love you you.