Redesigning Life with Sabrina Soto

From Guilt to Growth in Family Dynamics with Nedra Glover Tawwab

• Sabrina Soto and Nedra Glover Tawwab • Season 1 • Episode 79

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In this conversation, Sabrina Soto and Nedra Tawwab delve into the complexities of setting boundaries, particularly within family dynamics. They discuss the feelings of guilt that often accompany boundary-setting, the importance of recognizing unhealthy relationships, and the challenges posed by social media in maintaining boundaries. Nedra shares insights on navigating difficult family relationships, understanding gaslighting, and the necessity of personal growth in changing dynamics. The discussion emphasizes the importance of self-care and the empowerment that comes from establishing healthy boundaries.

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Speaker 1:

Hi, I'm Sabrina Soto. I believe the best conversations are with friends who are really able to open themselves up and share their lives, both the good parts and the bad. You're going to be listening to some of those candid conversations and hopefully gaining some insight to help you redesign your life from the inside out out. Nedra, thank you so much for joining us on Redesigning Life. I'm excited to talk to you because of all the work you've done. You have three of the biggest books of family dynamics, boundaries and setting drama-free with family dynamics. Consider this and the Setting Boundaries and I feel like I've struggled with all of those things. The setting boundaries, and I feel like I've struggled with all of those things my entire life and I feel like a lot of listeners have struggled with boundaries and family dynamics. So I have a list of questions. Hopefully you can get through everything, but thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Speaker 2:

You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

And I love your background so much. As a designer, I can't stop staring at like your color coding that's happening in the background.

Speaker 2:

Oh, thank you. It was a group project to color code in that way, so I'm very pleased with how it turned out. So thank, you it looks beautiful.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So the first question I have for you is Okay. So the first question I have for you is the guilt you feel or I don't say you, I have felt in my past, and I think a lot of listeners of redesigning life feel the same way of just when you set a boundary. All of a sudden you kind of feel like a badass. You set the boundary and then the guilt starts creeping in. So what advice do you give to people to sort of combat that?

Speaker 2:

Feel the guilt and stick with the boundary. I think sometimes we feel guilt as a reason to stop, like that guilt is telling us to say no, when in actuality that guilt is just letting you know that you're compassionate, you care, you want to, you want to maybe please people, you don't want to upset people, but it's certainly not a reason to pursue your boundary. It can be something that you overcome with practice. There are many times where we feel guilt because we haven't practiced having a certain boundary enough, and then there's other times where people have made us feel guilty about having boundaries. I think of situations where you know in my family, if you don't hug an adult and you're a kid, it's like you're going to let me be sad, you're going to, you're going to be mean to me. So there is a lot of guilt tripping that makes us feel really hug, uh, really bad for not wanting to hug a person. So you know, sometimes with our boundaries, it is set up for us to feel guilty and we have to consider that.

Speaker 1:

So when the person is yeah, because, by the way, I know exactly what you're talking about, which is why I never ask my daughter to hug anybody. She doesn't feel like hugging. But what sort of mantra? What can you say to yourself when you start feeling that like, oh, I'm letting that person down, Maybe I'm making them feel uncomfortable? How can we talk ourselves out of buckling it, giving in?

Speaker 2:

We have to sit with discomfort and I think so often we are trying to run away from it. So whenever we have a feeling, we're trying to manage the feeling. So if I feel really uncomfortable, how do I stop myself from feeling uncomfortable? And it's like maybe you just need to feel uncomfortable because you are doing something. I do some public speaking and I'm always interested in people say like, how do you speak so much and not feel nervous? I'm like I always feel nervous, I still speak. The assumption that I get to some point where I don't care about having to speak in front of strangers. It's not true and we often feel like, in order for me to do something, I can't feel any nervousness, any guilt, any discomfort. I have to feel great about doing it. I never feel great going to the dentist, but I go every time it just needs to be done right.

Speaker 2:

Like there are certain things that we must do. It might be a little bit uncomfortable and we will be okay with it.

Speaker 1:

I think I spent a lot of my 20s numbing myself in one way or another to not feel uncomfortable, which led to obviously really unhealthy patterns, and I think a lot of people probably do that too. It's like I'm feeling uncomfortable, so what can I do to distract myself or to numb myself from feeling it, so that it feels a little bit better? And you're right, it's, it's the dentist is a perfect example. It's like, yeah, you feel it and you do it anyway because it's part of your, you know, evolving as a human. You spoke about empathy and that means you're like okay, well, that's great Cause, it means you have empathy, but how do you still stay empathic as a human being and create healthy boundaries for yourself?

Speaker 2:

Well, we can care about people without giving in, and I know that because I'm a parent and every night my children fight to not go to bed, and I really care about their needs.

Speaker 1:

Every night.

Speaker 2:

Every night. They are 10 and 8. I have an 8-year-old too. I'm like when does it get better? What I mean? If I could talk to a psychic, I would be like name the date and time when my kids won't come in my room. That's all I want to know. I don't need lottery numbers, I just need to know the date and time that this is right and it's like they don't talk to you out like all day and then you're going to bed.

Speaker 2:

It's like now. It's so many stories, so many stories. I can't tell you the things that I found out at 9 PM. Oh, my gosh, it's like you. You have this living in your soul all day, my gosh, um.

Speaker 2:

So I'm saying that to say they're sweet little faces and you know that. You know sometimes they are sad. You know sometimes they are scared. You know sometimes maybe they are having some issues going to sleep, but at the end of the day, the way we all go to sleep is by closing our eyes. We have to start there. So you to do is get in the bed and close your eyes, because that will induce sleep, because if you keep coming in my room and playing in your room and talking, that's not going to make you sleepy at all. Right, so what you need to do is maybe the thing that you're afraid to do whether it's, you know, trying to lay down and go to sleep, maybe it's saying this hard thing to your boss, maybe it's having a difficult conversation with your friend that is what will get you the peace and ease on the other side of that situation.

Speaker 2:

So often we are so concerned about not just our comfort level, because sometimes we can place the boundary. We can deal with discomfort, but with certain people in our life, oh gosh. I know my people, I know all the things they complain about with other people, and that does make me a little more sensitive to what I say to them, because guess what I'm like? Oh, I know how much it hurt their feelings when this other person said no to their party. I know how much it hurt their feelings when this other person said no to their party. I know how much it hurt their feelings when this other thing happened and in actuality, it's like I may have to hurt some feelings. I don't know what's happening with my eyes.

Speaker 1:

Do you suffer from allergies? Because I do too.

Speaker 2:

No, I think I'm. I'm just, I don't know what's going on. I'm making you cry. Okay, go ahead. This is real life. This is real life. This is this is real life, and my eyes have no boundaries. They're like boundary lists. Right now, they're like you know what You're talking about, something important, and we're going to itch. That's what we'll do. We'll itch because we want you to be quiet about this.

Speaker 1:

Now you're making my eyes itch.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's like we want to run amok. Don't stop us, well, okay.

Speaker 1:

So then you were talking about, like, disappointing people and you know, sometimes having to set that it's time to walk away. What signs should somebody look out for when it's really time to not just set a boundary but to end a relationship, especially with a family member, which I think is probably the toughest one?

Speaker 2:

You know, I think we live in a culture of more talk about cutting people off. I don't think it's happening more. I think people have been cutting people off for 150 years. I probably have some family members that moved to Connecticut and changed their last name and I don't even know we're related, right, because that's how you could do it back in the day. It's like, yeah, I'm leaving Tennessee and you'd never see Sarah again. So that was, that was the cutoff. Now there are so many ways to be in contact with people and to communicate with them that it's a little bit harder to just, you know, have. That is, emotionally, mentally, physically, sexually. Those things happen in families and we need to end relationships with those people Because sometimes, when we do not, we have a lot of re-traumatizing, because when those people don't change, they just keep bringing up that old stuff.

Speaker 2:

We go into a cycle and blah, blah, blah. Now, with that said, there is some nuance to that Because, as human beings, what we determine to be emotional or mental abuse can be scaled right, like there are some things that are like, oh, I really don't like the way they said that to me. And then there is like, okay, this person is cursing me out every time I talk to them. So there is a level to what is and what is not abuse, and I think sometimes, before we get to that place of cutting people off, we have to consider other paths, because in families we will be around people. Now, if it is a physical or sexual abuse situation, there likely isn't another path, but if it's emotional abuse or mental abuse, you may want to consider.

Speaker 2:

You know, is this a family member I need to speak to on a regular basis? Have I explored what minimal contact looked like? Have I explored having contact only on the holiday? Have I explored, you know, talking to this person on an as needed basis? Have I explored not having a close relationship with this person? Because in families it is assumed that we will be close and sometimes that's the challenge. I can be an acquaintance with a cousin, but maybe I don't want you to be my favorite cousin, right.

Speaker 2:

Right, maybe I can be an acquaintance with my brother. Yeah, I don't want us to be best siblings.

Speaker 1:

Right, I feel like a cousin is different than a sibling, or the worst is, you have to cut ties with a parent.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, because there is this expectation of what the relationship should look like. You should call me every week. You should do this. You should do that when, in actuality, relationships are determined by the relation, not the blood, and so if we aren't doing a lot of relating, we don't have a lot in common. You, uh, you have some unhealthy behaviors that you aren't correcting. They're really impacting me. Now I have a choice in what that communication and contact can look like.

Speaker 1:

Right, Okay. So then I'm listening to this podcast, which I know I shouldn't be listening to because it's making me a little crazy, but it's about these, these women who all got duped by this narcissistic ex-husband of theirs and and as you're listening to it, you're like wake up, you know like what. But I've been in situations where I have been gaslit and I didn't necessarily know that it was unhealthy until you walk away. I know you've probably deal with a million clients that are in a situation like that. So what advice do you give to people when they're in maybe, a unhealthy dynamic, but there isn't any necessarily proof, it's just sort of their intuition that things aren't really lining up.

Speaker 2:

Well, as a therapist, you know, part of our work is allowing people to come to their own understanding and often when they're in a relationship with a narcissist, things don't seem narcissistic because you want to be in the relationship. The person has convinced you that part of this is true, that you know these things that they're making up and the gaslighting is working because you haven't recognized that it's gaslighting. So when people get to the space of there is something off about this person, they are more likely to listen to what the therapist has to say. They are more likely to be receptive to some tools of gray walling or, you know, only giving a little bit of information, not apologizing when you actually didn't do anything like they're more receptive to those things, but when people are in the thick of it, they're under the spell, right.

Speaker 2:

So you know, I used to have a relationship with someone in my family and the gaslighting used to work. Oh my gosh, I was just reading some old journals and I wrote I felt so bad for this person. They had gaslit me. I was, I was feeling so bad for them. The whole journal entry was like oh, I just pity this person and I want to help them more, and blah, blah, blah. And then this is a person who last year was calling me several times and just cursing me out because the gaslighting was no longer working. This is a person who I was just like, oh my gosh, if I say this thing, I need to quickly apologize and look at how their feelings are hurt. They're so sad because you're in. Apologize and look at how their feelings are hurt. They're so sad because you're in it. You're like in their spell.

Speaker 1:

But what made you finally wake up to what was happening personally? What happened?

Speaker 2:

if you don't mind me asking oh, you know, I just started to feel really icky. I just started to feel really icky about this person. I mean, this is a family relationship. So I've had the relationship my whole entire life, I would say. You know, in my twenties I kind of noticed some stuff was off, but I still was in the loop. Once I started to have kids, my BS meter it just it went up, yeah.

Speaker 1:

It went up very high.

Speaker 2:

I have less time for nonsense.

Speaker 1:

Yes, okay.

Speaker 2:

Agreed I have. I have less time for anything. Long showers, long showers, lots of stuff I have less time for. So, yeah, it's. It's just like I started to be able to better detect what was the most useful relationship for my time. Where was I getting the most value? Who were the people who were loving me back? Who were the people who were showing up for me? Who were the people who were there for me when things were happening? It wasn't this person there for me. When things were happening, it wasn't this person.

Speaker 2:

And so I started to pull back because I was like, wait a minute, this person. They don't have any reason, but they never show up to anything and they get missing. You know, one of the one of the things was they wouldn't show up to any of my celebratory moments because they couldn't be the center of attention, yeah, and so they would get missing. Like you have the birthday party, you have the graduation or whatever. You wouldn't hear from them for a week or two, and then they'd call you two weeks later and they'd sound regular. And once I had my daughter, that happened again. I had big lifestyle moment and they disappeared, yeah, and then they popped back up and they disappeared, yeah. And then they popped back up and they were just talking about I'm like hey, hey, hey, I got a baby. Can you ask me how I'm doing? How's the?

Speaker 1:

baby Right, and so that's what it is in your life. That's not celebrating you at any time. That is a big, big red flag.

Speaker 2:

That's a huge red flag, and I hadn't, you know, not to say I didn't notice it, but I excused it. I gave that person so many excuses, oh my gosh. So there was a point where I realized I am giving this person out when they haven't even asked for one. I'm not even challenging this stuff and so the aggressiveness started when I started to challenge the things that they were doing. Well, why didn't you come to this thing? What you know it's like oh whoa, like I can't even talk to you about this stuff.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I think sometimes we change our relationships when we change yes.

Speaker 1:

Okay, well, let's talk about that. So I feel like in the last two years I've changed so much, and not just having Olivia and not having enough time for the nonsense, but just even growing. And I feel like a lot of people in my life kind of got upset. There was a lot of pushback Like what do you mean? You're not going to put up with this? You've put up with this for the last 10 years, or you know, and it's hard because you want to grow, but not everyone's going to go on that journey with you. So how do you deal with that personally, when you do make those big changes?

Speaker 2:

I am okay with not everyone being on the journey because the people who need to be here will be here.

Speaker 2:

I think there is room in our life for more people who can aboard the train. So we have to make room for people who understand it, particularly in families. You know it's very complicated to undo a relationship because it impacts so many other things. Sometimes you can't get out of that relationship with a parent when your siblings are bringing them up or the other parent is bringing them up. So you know it can be really complicated but you may have to find support elsewhere. It might not be the people who are still willing to be in that relationship, because for that person in my family in particular, everybody would agree that this person has a problem and only a handful of folks don't deal with this person.

Speaker 1:

It's like we want to and everyone else does.

Speaker 2:

Everyone else does and they talk about all of these new situations that come up and how wild this was, and then the next Tuesday they're back in the situation with that person. So it's like, wow, you are really in that thing with them. And you know, some of the things I've said is I don't need to hear any more new stories. I have enough to do a Netflix series. I don't any new stories. I'm working on a trilogy right now. So please do not bring any new stories from October 2024, because I you know a part of me I feel like and I've said this I am so happy that they have you because we all need somebody. Yeah, it won't be me, right, but I'm happy they have you. Yeah, so, if you can withstand that level of dysfunction in a relationship, we all need someone. I'm not their someone, but perhaps you are.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, you bring up a good point of just there's not only the guilt of the person that you're maybe cutting off or limited contact with, but it's also the family members behind it. Like, come on, he's not that bad, or she's had a hard life, or, you know, she was abandoned by her parents. It's like, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2:

And I could be doing a lot of stuff because of my life tragedies. I mean, seriously, if those excuses work, I would be doing, I would be robbing banks, I would. I mean, I'd be doing all sorts. Oh, no, no, no, no, I have childhood trauma. You can't lock me up. Yeah, that stuff doesn't work.

Speaker 2:

It doesn't work Not anymore, it doesn't work as an excuse for you to abuse people or to mistreat them. We can grow from our pain. We can learn to do better. We don't have to be in that cycle of becoming the abuser. I know how many people get there because it's hard to get out of that pattern of what's been done to you and what you've seen done. There is something powerful about that for some folks, but it's not an excuse to hurt people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I agree, and I think there are a lot of people, especially people pleasers or perfectionists, that they feel like they have to fix it because that's where I spent my 20s. And if they can't fix it and they have to walk away, it's a failure and that's just not true.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I think it's a failure to stay sometimes in that sort of relationship, whether it's a friendship, a family dynamic or a romantic relationship.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, wasting any more time can be the failure.

Speaker 1:

Yes, you talked about social media earlier and I just want to touch on that before we go. I think, and you tell me, it's actually been more difficult to create boundaries because everyone is so accessible. So in your career, because you've been doing this quite some time, how have you seen social media affect people, being able to create boundaries and cut people out or leave relationships? How has it affected it and made it a little bit difficult, more difficult?

Speaker 2:

Well, we have the option to still view someone's life Right Now. There are some blockers they can have. Perhaps they can set their account to private and not invite anybody with an unknown name, but in many cases people do have the option to check on us to look at what's going on. So it can be really hard to step away from some of those relationships because it's constantly being shown to you. I mean we can leave social media. That's certainly, you know, an option. I mean we can leave social media that's certainly, you know, an option. But it's challenging to see people moving on without you sometimes.

Speaker 1:

Right. I remember somebody said to me because we all like after a breakup, we've all done it of this still looking and and your brain doesn't know the difference, and it's almost like you're there again if, especially if it was a toxic relationship. But I know that it's, you're right, it's like we've never. When I grew up, we didn't even have social media, so when you broke up with somebody it was just bye, you just didn't walk down that street anymore.

Speaker 2:

And that was the end of that. But it's just yeah, that is that is tough and I think it's the same thing with cutting family members off. Like I said, you could just leave. You'd be like, hey, I'm from Detroit, but I'm moving to California, your family isn't going to come find you. It was like, hey, we have an aunt and so-and-so, but now you could do all sorts of things to find people and be in contact with them.

Speaker 1:

I know.

Speaker 2:

And keep in touch.

Speaker 1:

I feel like it's a. It's more difficult now to create these boundaries, but then even more empowering once we do, because there's so many more steps that we need to take in order to stick up for ourselves, in a sense.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it is a worthy journey for many of us to place these boundaries in our relationships and to figure out what they need to look out. Look like, um, there is a continuum of boundaries. It's not just cutting people off. It could be figuring out if you need to take a step back, if you need to pause. Um, is this something you need to revisit, because sometimes we've cut people off and we actually because again, because we've changed, maybe we can tolerate the relationship differently. That's right. So that's a consideration as well, that sometimes we've cut people off and we didn't have the tools to deal with them. And now we have some tools and maybe we can repair some of those relationships.

Speaker 1:

Nedra, we have to have you back on. I could talk to you for hours. Anybody who's listening. I'll have all the contact information. You should follow her on Instagram. Her three books the one if you're dealing with any family dynamics, drama Free is probably like the best book to go with. But also, you have Set Boundaries, find Peace and Consider this as well, and you have a Ted talk that I saw. Um, your website has your podcast and your videos and your Instagram and all of that, but I'll have it all in the show notes.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much, thank you.