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Redesigning Life with Sabrina Soto
Redesigning Life with Sabrina Soto is a podcast dedicated to inspiring intentional living, personal growth, and transformation. Hosted by design expert and lifestyle guru Sabrina Soto, each episode dives into conversations about wellness, mindset, home, and self-improvement with leading experts and thought leaders. With a mix of practical advice, heartfelt storytelling, and empowering insights, Redesigning Life is your go-to space for creating a life that feels as good as it looks—one thoughtful choice at a time.
Redesigning Life with Sabrina Soto
SPECIAL EDITION: Dr. Ramani on Narcissistic Abuse & Recovery
Dr. Ramani Durvasula joins us to share her expertise on narcissistic relationships, explaining how they create invisible wounds that can be just as painful as physical abuse. We explore the psychological dynamics of these toxic relationships and provide validation for those who have experienced narcissistic manipulation but have struggled to identify it.
Whether you're currently in a toxic relationship, recovering from one, or supporting someone who is, this raw, unfiltered conversation provides validation, understanding, and a roadmap toward healing. Most importantly, it reminds us that no matter how long it took to recognize or leave the relationship, "it took as long as it took"—a compassionate truth that frees us from the burden of self-blame.
For more support, check out the Dr. Ramani Network and her book "It's Not You" to connect with others who understand what you're going through.
To watch the segment with Dr. Ramani and Sabrina, The Sabrina Soto Show:
https://www.sabrinasoto.com/the-sabrina-soto-show/
Connect with Sabrina on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/sabrina_soto
Connect with Dr. Ramani here:
https://doctor-ramani.com/
Dr. Ramani on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/doctorramani?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
Welcome to a special edition of Redesigning Life. Many of you know I have a new show called the Sabrina Soto Show Out and I was able to invite amazing experts in their fields just to come in and have a great conversation. But because it's a show, we have to edit it down. Now, these conversations, they were so good that I wanted to publish the raw, unedited version, and that's what this episode is. You're going to hear action and you may hear a crew in the background, but I wanted to publish this so you can really listen to the entire chat. So here you go, Ready and action. I am so happy you're here. Thank you so much for having me. To me, you are a legend, because it was as if you were holding my hand through such a dark time in my life and I'm sure you probably hear that all the time I do.
Speaker 2:I'm so sorry that happened to you and I wish nobody needed me. That's the world I want to live in. I'm out of a job.
Speaker 1:For people who don't know what you're known for. Can you tell everyone a little bit about your background?
Speaker 2:So I focus on people who are going through narcissistic relationships. A your background, so I focus on people who are going through narcissistic relationships. A lot of people say, oh, she's the narcissism expert and I had to study narcissism a lot, so, yes, I learned a lot about it. But what I really focus on is what happens to people when they've been through a relationship with somebody who is narcissistic, toxic, antagonistic use whatever word you want and so I've been doing it for a long, long time and written books and talk about it on YouTube, and I never imagined it would become this. I don't even think I could have appreciated what the scale of this problem was. Yes, and I feel as though the world of mental health ignored it. I think that's the part that really got me angry and I think think about it, sabrina Person comes to therapy. Right, they're anxious, they're upset, they can't sleep, they're crying, they're confused, they're overwhelmed. Who is the therapist focusing on?
Speaker 2:The person, sort of what's Sabrina? There's so much going wrong for you. Yeah, girl, you're having a normal reaction to being in that kind of relationship. That's right. And so what I wanted people to understand is I don't want you to feel all these uncomfortable things, but it's not you and that's why my book is called it's Not you.
Speaker 2:This is an expectable reaction to being in one of these relationships, and so from there, really, that became the foundation of the work I would do, because, focusing on just the narcissism piece first of all, it doesn't really change. So I wasn't going to make progress. And don't get me wrong, I've worked with many narcissistic clients in my practice to continue to consult with folks about working with narcissistic clients, but where I really saw the change and the conversation had to happen because we weren't having it is what was happening to people in these relationships, because they're not. It's not always about domestic abuse like physical abuse. It's almost all of it emotional abuse, very manipulative, and so people say I don't identify with this, like I don't have a bruise on my face. I say no, no, no, you got a bruise on your soul, and that counts.
Speaker 1:I can't agree with you more, and I know this sounds horrible to say, but I did feel like the abuse was just as it hurt, just as much as if somebody were to physically hit me, but it does, because you got to remember when you're that off balance, when you're living with something that unpredictable, that invalidating, that at times can be kind of kind and then become really cruel.
Speaker 2:You don't know what you're getting Cognitive dissonance, cognitive dissonance, good girl. So then what happens? Though you're also, you're feeling the kind of overwhelm and fear that a person would feel, no matter how they're being abused. Right, our nervous system doesn't always distinguish. All we know is we are, we feel uncertain, we feel anxious, we feel on edge. So we respond we feel crazy, because this person isn't always terrible.
Speaker 2:That's what was unique about the narcissistic relationship. You had a great big, sexy weekend. Your friends all like them when they meet them. Your mom's a sweetie to everyone but you, and so it's this. It's confusing because you yourself might say but we do have fun, right? Then it became really bad. Yes, but maybe this is my fault because other people like them. If the person was bad all the time, then it'd be a lot easier. It might, because everyone will say what are you doing? This is the meanest person. But if everyone's saying love them, great person. I remember a friend who was in a narcissistic relationship and everyone's like oh my gosh, I'm so glad to see you guys are together. He's such a good guy and she thought it's got to be me, because everyone's saying this is a great person.
Speaker 1:I hate that. I know all of the terms covert narcissist, cognitive dissidence, cognitive dissonance, love bombing, all of the things. But I have to tell you one thing, that and I'm just going to be really vulnerable about it I'm actually embarrassed that I went through that, because I feel like it makes me look weak that I allowed something like that to happen in my life. All right, so let's, let's break that one down immediately.
Speaker 2:I don't know a person in this world who would not be vulnerable to one of these relationships Not one. You tell me who, sabrina. When approached by someone charming, charismatic, confident, seemingly empathic, attractive pelling, who's like no, no, no, I don't want to go out with you. I'm going to go out with that rumpled person in the corner.
Speaker 1:I am embarrassed that I allowed that sort of relationship in my life, and I think a lot of people feel that way.
Speaker 2:Okay, so no, I'm going to say first of all, I'm going to call stop on that. Every single person in the world is vulnerable to these relationships. That makes sense. There's not who wouldn't be vulnerable. She's good. Who wouldn't be vulnerable to someone charming, charismatic, compelling, confident, attractive? Who's not vulnerable to that? So I'd like to find the person out there that would say I'm going to choose someone who is sort of a mess. No, you're going to go for the shiny thing and we're taught to go for the shiny thing. You're the supply. They're not the supply, you're the supply for them. But my point is, we are drawn to them and they are drawn to us. And they're not drawn to us because we're a hot mess. They're not drawn to us because we're a shrinking violet. They're drawn to us because we're attractive. So people walk around saying, well, they must have chosen me because I'm weak or broken or traumatized.
Speaker 1:No, they probably chose you because you're at the top of your game story about something that happened in this backyard and I started to believe the story until I realized I have surveillance cameras and I watched the surveillance footage and realized it never happened that way and I was lucky enough to have surveillance cameras, right. But how many people are out there who are told this happened? It's the gaslighting that second guess themselves.
Speaker 2:It is legitimately crazy making Well, the ultimate tell I always tell people am I being gaslighted? And I'll say here's the ultimate tell and everyone watching this show the ultimate tell you're being gaslighted is that you feel compelled to start recording conversations. That's it. That's how you know you're being gaslighted Because no normal person's like I want to get this down on tape. Why would you do that? But if you're like I can't remember things. And so the day a client comes to me and says I just wish I had a recording, I'm like that's because you're being gaslighted all the time, and so you happen to have that footage. And sometimes people do, and sometimes that's the moment.
Speaker 2:I can't tell you how many people I know were surviving during their 25th year of an abusive relationship, but that was the day they got the recording, that was the day they saw it on video. So I want to get people out of these things or at least see them clearly or disengage or engage with them differently, before they have to wait for footage. We've got to learn to trust ourselves. But that need, that desire to want that recording, speaks to how insidious gaslighting is. And so people are clear, because I think everyone's using this word. I think gaslighting was like the word of the year a few years ago.
Speaker 2:Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse and manipulation and in its simplest form, gaslighting is doubting the reality, the perception, the experience, the memory of a person and then dismantling that person and telling them there's something wrong with them. So it's not as simple as that didn't happen, sabrina. But you know I'm a little worried about you because you're just, I don't know, you seem a little off, like you're getting a little crazy, sabrina. So not just that Sabrina didn't remember it right, but Sabrina's crazy. You hear that enough times. You start to believe it. You start to believe it, especially if you love that person.
Speaker 1:Yes, I have to tell you it was such a dark time. Again, you saved me. It was like and I'm sure you hear this a lot I was digesting so much narcissism information to make me feel less crazy, but then it almost turned on me because it would be like these toxic traits are narcissistic. And then I started thinking is that me? Do you hear that a lot for people that are being are in these kind of relationships that they start second guessing whether or not they're the problem All the time.
Speaker 2:In fact, when people say I think I'm the narcissist, I'm like, okay, well, we might actually be in a good zone. Probably not, because narcissistic people don't think of themselves as narcissistic. They either think of themselves as victim or they think, or they think they're the most empathic person out there, like they actually think. I'm a great guy. Like I buy everyone these great gifts, I pick up the check, I'm a great guy, I'm so empathic, I feel you. All this nonsense. They really believe that. In fact, there's research showing that narcissistic people in general rate themselves as higher in empathy, which is yet one more gaslight. But when you go to this other issue of people who've been through these relationships think they're narcissistic, there's a few reasons for that. One thing that happens in a narcissistic relationship is, over time and I'm sure you experience this you become less and less and less of yourself. You don't express needs, you don't express wants, you don't express preferences, because if you do, you're called selfish. That's right.
Speaker 1:That's oh my gosh, it's yeah, you're absolutely right. I would love for people to understand when, even if they're dating or in a relationship what are the signs to look out for for narcissistic? Not necessarily somebody with NPD, but even narcissistic, just some sort of like on the spectrum high spectrum of narcissism?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't even concern yourself of whether it's the high spectrum of narcissism. Narcissism is on a spectrum from mild to severe, and even mild narcissism can really play with your head. So here's the things you're looking for. You're looking for pathological selfishness. You're looking for variable empathy. Sometimes it seems to be on, sometimes it's off, but it never really feels sincere. You're looking for entitlement that they're special, they deserve special treatment. They lose their mind if they have to wait in a line. What do you mean? You don't have my table ready? What do you mean? I have to wait an hour? They're very grandiose. They're very arrogant. They are manipulative. You see the gaslighting. Now here's the problem. That's not a first date opener. It's not a second date opener. They don't show that it's not a third date.
Speaker 2:I would say that on average for people who are concerned, they're in a narcissistic relationship. The problem is it can take almost six months to a year to observe enough of the patterns to say Houston, we have a problem. Yes, you know, that's the problem, because there's enough good moments in there. The nature of love bombing, which I'll talk about in a minute, but the nature of that is means in the early part of the relationship. It feels fantastical, it feels idealized, you feel seen and heard like you've never felt seen before. So even if some of these little toxic signs are getting sprinkled in there, a lot of people will say this has got to be a me thing, or once again I'm trying to sabotage a relationship. So a lot of people will take that on themselves because so many boxes are being ticked. As with most things, to see a pattern, it takes time. By the time you're already into it, you're in, you might have moved in together.
Speaker 2:Narcissistic people not always, but often will like to go fast. When people tell me they got engaged in three months, I'm like someone's an narcissist. That's right, you know so it's. It's the quicker you go, the deeper they insinuate themselves into your life, the harder it is obviously for you to get out of it. So they will want to move in quick. They'll want to get engaged quick. People will get pregnant quickly. They'll introduce them to everyone quickly. They'll move to another city for them quickly. And that quick, quick, quick part. People say this is so passionate. Am I real honey? No, but wait.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there is love bombing, but there is a healthy relationship, that it is passionate in the beginning. So how do you tell the difference?
Speaker 2:You don't feel confused. When it's healthy in the beginning, right, you don't feel overwhelmed. And, above all else, when it's passionate in the beginning, you don't feel silenced. If you want to say, could we slow down, or I can't make it, or I want to go see my friends, A narcissistic person is so trying to control the narrative, I'm like, oh, I get it. You don't want to go in deep with someone right now. So now you actually do want a close relationship, but you also want balance. And the more you strive for balance in the relationship symmetry we call it like this both of you sort of have lives outside the relationship, lives in the relationship. The more you try to exert that, the more the narcissistic person will question your commitment, question your love. You know, listen, I'm doing everything here. I'm taking you out. I don't know how much more you want. Now you feel guilty, like, oh, they are really doing all these nice things for me. I feel bad.
Speaker 1:Now I feel bad. Now I can tell you in my relationships in my past, my history is that I didn't listen to my intuition. So, looking back, as hindsight's 2020, I did kind of see the red flags and ignored them.
Speaker 2:Yep, there's no such thing as a full-blown narcissist. That's not a thing, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes or me. Yeah, I don't like to wait in line.
Speaker 2:Here's the thing Nobody likes to wait in line. I'm going to be on the line for 30 minutes in the post office, but do you think you're too special to wait in that line? I mean?
Speaker 1:no, but I'll try to cut. But everything else I'm fine. It was just the waiting in line.
Speaker 2:I'm in a hurry, but you know, if you did that I'll be honest with you. Somebody's like.
Speaker 1:I'm dating Sabrina and she got all up in someone's face about waiting in line. I hate to tell you I'd be like pull back on that relationship. Yeah, no, I would. That would be a red flag. Yes, I agree, and what I was saying earlier is that I I kind of saw signs and then I didn't listen to my intuition. What was blocking you from your?
Speaker 2:intuition.
Speaker 1:What was happening, like wanting to be loved, wanting to be loved and liking the good part of it Right, right, so that, and that's so human, so don't judge yourself for that.
Speaker 2:That's such a human want and I think what's happening is people are people want the quick like give me the five signs. I'm like it's not that simple. If it was that simple I'd be a very rich woman. Like five signs and done. It's not that we do have this intuition, we do have this gut brain, as it were. But this brain and that brain often are not friends. Your brain's saying, honey, you want a relationship. Like make compromise. Everything can't be the way you want it. But here that gut is saying this doesn't feel good. Even look at, like Gavin DeBecker's work. It's like that you know the gift of fear. Like you start feeling something funky.
Speaker 1:Listen to funky, listen to funky. And I do look back and and I realize I just I don't think I fully loved myself at that time either and I think that was a big problem.
Speaker 2:I'm going to call you out on that Please.
Speaker 1:OK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because once again now you're blaming yourself. Here's the bottom line, sabrina Someone was mistreating you. Let's just that's it. That's, that's full stop. You didn't love yourself, ok, that's fine, you work on you. Somebody was harming you and in this deep dive of what was Sabrina's contribution? Sabrina's big mistake was wanting to love and be loved. I don't call that a mistake, I call that being a human being. So Sabrina trying to say Sabrina doesn't love herself. Sabrina, this Sabrina, this person took advantage of a situation, and that's the part that's not okay. And if we can stop the paragraph there, then people can move from there. Yes, that work on ourselves and understanding that we have a right to be separate, individual human beings, and all that stuff, that's the work of a lifetime, sabrina, then we're all going to meet our person when we're 89 years old.
Speaker 2:I mean I'm getting close, that's okay, and you know what that's? Probably somewhere around 50 is when we should get into our first relationship, because it takes about that long to get our inside house clean.
Speaker 1:It took me 47 years to get into a good relationship and I also realized that online dating has created almost like an online storefront for narcissists. My one relationship I was in the person actually merged, melded into the person that I was online. So everything that I said my interests were, they pretended to be that exact person. So when I met, I'm like, oh, this is my person.
Speaker 2:Called mirroring and the narcissistic person. Someone said this beautifully to me. They said they have a capacity to peel your face off. Put it on them so you're seeing back everything you ever wanted to hear. And that technique of mirroring is actually something that people are taught in when they're learning high-end espionage, manipulation and all of that. So that's what it is and we misread that as empathy. But what it is is that in many ways, a narcissistic person at the beginning of a relationship is like AI. They're tailored to go up and down with us. That's the mirroring.
Speaker 2:So they might do a full court press and you'll say, no one's going to buy me a fancy dinner and I'm going to want that. Well then they're going to start to figure out put a picnic on the beach and so, before you know it, they are shaping their love bombing. They're tailoring. Again. It's very AI to you. I mean, that's how narcissistic people read them as being empathic. But they were paying attention. But they were paying attention to get in there and do whatever reason. You were good supply and they want to secure that supply. That's what that is and that's very different than falling.
Speaker 1:One thing I do realize in all the times I tried to walk away and it took Way too long. I'm going to admit it took too long for me to walk away, but I realized the only way and please correct me if I'm wrong to actually walk away from a narcissistic relationship is no contact.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'm going to call you out again. Okay, it didn't take you too long, okay, information to feel whole in your body, to feel safe enough to leave, to address that trauma-bonded kind of riding that roller coaster experience with them. So it took as long as it took. Listen, we're never going to live in a world where two weeks into a relationship, someone's going to know the person's narcissistic Reena. I still get played by new people I meet and friends. I was going to ask you, you do, you do, because I still want to care about you. But then I'm like you know, you know you never want to be like it's almost like you're thinking wait a minute, yeah, a couple of children don't have to choose. But also I'm like you just played me. I'm making a video about that, you know. So it's a more. I think my own shrink told me she's like I sometimes think you get into these things for ideas. I'm like no content. But because we're human beings, we do want to connect, we do want to be close. I keep coming back to that because that's the driver. So it took you as long as it took you, but we're not. People are never going to get there. And if they do, two weeks and four weeks in.
Speaker 2:Then those are people who may also end up overcorrecting Right, and I think that's the challenge for survivors of narcissistic relationship. Either you're running in with reckless abandon or you're like no, they said this one thing wrong, or they interrupted me one time, or they didn't call me back in five minutes, or they didn't want to wait in line. Yeah, they don't want to wait in line, sabrina. Sorry hon, you're going to have to clean up that line behavior. So those are the sorts of things that there that we, there's an over-correction, under-correction, and that's why I always tell people after a relationship with a narcissistic person ends, there's only one piece of guidance I can give you need at least one year out, one year of no dating, no sex, no make-out sessions, no flirty texts, nothing. That piece you said about loving yourself. It's not even about loving yourself. It's about knowing who you are as a separate human being, what you like, what you don't like, what your interests are, where you like the thermostat set, what kind of cereal you'll like to eat in the morning, because all of that was stolen from you. You need to detox. You need to not only detox, but you need to know you and a lot of people never do that in the first place, but certainly a narcissistic relationship takes all of that away.
Speaker 2:A year where you spend anniversary dates the way it feels right to you, you travel alone, you spend time with friends, you reconnect with your life. Many people feel though I get the complaint, dr Ramani I felt alone for three years, so really I've been alone for three years. I said if that fool was in your house, you were not alone for three years. You've been alone for three years. I said if that fool was in your house, you were not alone for three years. You've been alone for one month. No, and every person I've worked with who waited the year said now I want to go longer because I'm actually really enjoying life, and then organically if they meet someone versus like it's been 365 days. Can I go on the dating apps? I'm actually not a fan of dating apps. For people who've been through narcissistic relationships, I think it's accessible.
Speaker 1:It is, yeah, I think what for me? Because I said that I was so embarrassed that I went through this. I even made a fake Instagram profile so that I could follow everything and so people wouldn't know, but to hear that you've even been duped, I hate to say. This kind of makes me feel better, because we all are, you know, we all are. It makes me feel a little bit better. But I'm talking a lot about romantic relationships. I know people have relationships with their parents, with a boss.
Speaker 1:So, what happens when you can't go no contact with somebody like that?
Speaker 2:Sabrina, most people in narcissistic relationships can't go no contact. In fact, I guess probably half, maybe even more than half of people can't leave their intimate relationships with narcissistic people for a whole variety of reasons. They may have minor children together. They may be financially interdependent. There may be cultural reasons. There may be reasons of fear. When you leave a narcissistic relationship it can get really difficult very quickly. There could be, at the more severe end, smear campaigns and stalking. Flying monkeys you know flying monkeys from. Flying monkeys are those people who are sort of doing the narcissistic person's bidding and kind of getting into your life and getting intel from you.
Speaker 1:A flying monkey is somebody that the narcissist gets on their side to do the gossiping about you, to smear you. They're not doing it, so they don't look like the bad guy Correct Exactly and that's very common.
Speaker 2:So some people aren't prepared for that fallout. So a lot of people don't go no contact.
Speaker 1:It's a. I actually think it's a bit of a luxury to go no contact. Yeah, so if someone is watching this and they suspect someone in their life is a narcissist, can you recap exactly some of the big signs?
Speaker 2:A person who's narcissistic has low empathy variable empathy, I won't say they have no empathy, it's just sort of really low and it's kind of all over the place, right. They believe they deserve special treatment. They believe the rules don't apply to them. They do believe the rules apply to everyone else, though, just not them. They're grandiose, arrogant, pathologically selfish. They have an excessive need for praise, validation and admiration. They need to be the center of attention. They can often feel like the victim. If things don't go exactly the way they want or they don't get the thing they want, they're the victim. They've been wronged, everything's unfair to them, and the way those traits show up in a relationship include manipulation, gaslighting. They're very dismissive, they minimize other people's problems. They lie, they cheat, they betray, they dominate, they control, they shift blame. They don't take responsibility. That's how it shows up and what it does to people. It leaves them feeling self-blaming, confused, anxious, can't sleep, concentrate, ruminate.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about it. I'm sure you were. I lost so much weight Because it's so confusing, and so that's why I do what I do, which is to shine a light on this and really say again it's not you, that this is really a pattern. I have your book right here, in case you were wondering. I just put that out there. It's not you. This is a pattern and it works for them and we reward this behavior. And these people run our companies and run our governments and run everything. They're much more likely to be leaders. Narcissistic people make more money. Narcissistic people have more luck at dating, so they're kind of winning. They're the ones who move on the quickest. Well, they move on immediately because they aren't going to leave you unless they have new supplies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they always have somebody waiting. So I know that a lot of times people narcissists. They sometimes cop to the problem and say I'm going to get help, I'm going to change, I love you. I've never loved anyone like you, Not that I've heard that before, but can narcissists change so?
Speaker 2:to your other point that I'm going to change. I'm going to go therapy. That's called future faking Future faking. So that's making a promise to keep someone hanging around for another three months, six months, one year, 50 years depends on your time frame.
Speaker 1:But what if they really?
Speaker 2:want to change, do they? I don't know. So I would say to them I'm going to change. I would say then you look at me and you tell me exactly how it is. You're going to change, and the thing is the thing. You need to happen. They may not even understand what that is. They're like I'll empty the dishwasher. I'm like homie. This is a lot more than the dishwasher. That ship has sailed. And so what this becomes, though, is that those promises come and, sabrina, understandably because people are invested in these relationships, they stick around the first feature fake, the second feature fake. In fact, there's a pattern in these relationships called hoovering, where you get pulled back in. Of course, you do love this person, you're connected to this person. Now, can they change? That's probably the most loaded question, and I'd say probably not enough to make a difference. Right, does that make sense? So I've worked with narcissistic clients.
Speaker 1:I have PTSD right now. I'm like sweating. I'm sorry, I'm past it, thank God. But the hoovering I forgot about that word. That's a thing, that's a real thing, because when you hoovering, I noticed that when you finally really mean goodbye, they turn it on even harder.
Speaker 2:Hoovering can be a dream too, because for people who didn't feel chosen in their lives, hoovering is like actually they really want me. And where hoovering gets to be a hot mess is if they move on to someone else and then they're like baby. I didn't know how good I had it with you. You will have to be made of some kind of titanium to not fall for that right, and so that's what I work with helping people through Like they had no problem betraying you once. I'll take the bet that they're going to do it again.
Speaker 1:I say once a cheater, always a repeater, and I really do believe that If you're in a relationship and you do that to someone, I think most likely of course there's Always a case that that might not happen, but I think that somebody who's a narcissist is always going to do the same behavior.
Speaker 2:Well, narcissistic people do tend to cheat because they tend to betray, because they need new supply and they actually have no empathy for you. So the combination and they're entitled like, well, why shouldn't I be able to have sex with the hot girl I met in Vegas? Like, it doesn't seem like a problem to me. You're making too big a deal out of it. So you get gaslighted, they get their supply, they minimize the harm it does. It's all the dynamics show up. But can they change?
Speaker 2:I've had narcissistic clients who would show up 30 minutes late to session and say, well, can't we go the full hour? I said no, there's someone right behind you. Like, you get 20 minutes, I need a minute to go to the bathroom, like, and then no. And they'd look offended, like, well, I'm paying you a lot for a certain period of time. They'd want to text me on Christmas. They'd want callbacks at 5 am. You know you have to no boundaries, no boundaries, right. So over time they wouldn't do that. They'd actually show up to the session on time, they would pay the bill on time, they would not text me at those times and wouldn't get enraged if they didn't get a response. Is that change? Sure, would that be enough change to make a difference in a close relationship? No, and so the but I think where people get frustrated, they went to therapy. I was just going to say that.
Speaker 1:I thought that narcissists don't go to therapy.
Speaker 2:And they do. And they often go to therapy because they feel like a victim my wife is so mean to me, my this is so mean to me, what's happening to me so unfair. And as a therapist, you're like, okay, well, let's work a little bit. I can understand it. You're hurting, but when you try to do any emotionally deep work or accountability, the whole thing falls apart and then they stop coming or you're a bad therapist.
Speaker 1:I remember going to therapy with that said person and they would turn it on to the therapist and the therapist would think that they were the best because they were just as charming to them. So if you're in a relationship at home with someone and you're going to therapy and the therapist is duped too, like how do you make sense of it all?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's tricky because a lot of therapists aren't trained in this and so a lot of what I do in the world is I train therapists to say look, be careful. When you see couples therapy and you see one person who almost looks deflated and the other one's all charming, charismatic, pay attention to that dynamic, because a lot of people will say, well, he's with a dud, you know, she's like a deflated balloon and he seems to be on top of it. And the narcissistic person will compliment the therapist yes, yes, you have to be seasoned. I'm like there's nothing. You can listen, you know. Oh, you go. I went to some great schools here. I'm like sit down, you have to be that clear. But if you're green, if you're new, if you don't know what you're dealing with, it takes a minute and they don't teach this in school.
Speaker 2:So I'm not mad at therapists for not getting this, but the amount of change that a narcissistic person would not only have to make but sustain forever. Listen, how many people out in the world have gone on a diet and not been able to change what they eat and before you know it, you're back to Hershey bars in bed. Maybe that's just you know what I'm saying Like we, we slide back. And for a narcissistic person, if you don't get all the way down to that core insecurity, that core dysregulation, that core I need the world to tell me I'm the most special deal with the tantruming child that they are, which is almost impossible in therapy then they're not going to make the change that you need for a relationship to be successful.
Speaker 2:So when I work with couples and I've worked with couples and I work with individuals I've said to them, to the person who's not narcissistic in the relationship, how much what's going to be enough here, because you're never getting this, we're going to get this. What part of this could work for you? Because not everyone can leave and for some people the adjustment will have to be. Could they not cheat? So in my face? Oh my yeah.
Speaker 2:Those are the compromises people have to make, and so this is no joke. So can they change? Not enough to make a difference. And like a rubber band, right, you can pull a rubber band out this far, but unless someone's holding both ends, as soon as you put it down, it goes back to its original size. That's how personality works and, above all, that's how narcissism works.
Speaker 1:There's not one person in my life that hasn't had to deal with some sort of narcissistic relationship, so that's why having this conversation to me is so powerful. But this relationship has made me feel like I'm not alone, that you understand and that it's not you. And if you are at home and you are dealing with this at all, this is a must read so you don't feel alone. Because I think that when you're in this relationship, you feel so alone and you feel so crazy that this will feel like this will be like a little pillow at night to keep you safe and warm. So for people you mentioned people not being able to leave a relationship what tips could you give to someone to cope?
Speaker 2:Whether you can or can't leave. I think some of them are universal. It's a little bit harder when you can't leave. Some things are number one you need support. You need some people in the world who see and get what you're going through. If you're fortunate, you have a good therapist, if maybe you're in a support group community. We have things like the Dr Romney Network. I have a healing program that people can go and recognize the network, yeah, yeah. So the Dr Romney Network is wonderful because it's an interactive network where every week we have guests, sometimes we have a show. That's all questions. They can ask questions, but there's also that sense of community amongst everyone hearing whatever our topic of the week is. And then we also have a healing program where people get community support and we do deep dives every month. And community support and we do deep dives every month. So and I'm not the only one, there's other programs out there.
Speaker 2:Figure out what works for you. Being in therapy helps, having people in your life who get it, reading, educating yourself. You need validation, you need support. That's number one. Number two is recognize there's a you separate from the relationship, and I always say to folks you kind of need to learn how to phone it into the relationship. You may not be able to leave, but recognize gray rocking. Yellow rocking, which basically means yellow rocking, is way better than gray rocking. Tell me all about this yellow rocking. I love that color. It's sort of like not giving the narcissist supply. Yellow rocking is where we put a little bit of us into it, like yeah, no, it's going to rain this weekend, it's gotten, so they're watching something weird. My friend, tina Swithin, came up with that term. She has a focus on helping people through narcissistic divorces and she found that kids felt a little weirded out when they watch parents giving one word to each other.
Speaker 1:I have to tell you that I mentioned that I had a fake Instagram, a Finsta account, to learn all about the narcissistic recovery right, and what I love about you having the Dr Ramani Network is the community, because I think that when you feel so alone, you need to talk to other people who are going through it, to just have that validation. Yes, so thank you for that, thank you for your book, thank you for being here, thank you and thank you to Terry Cole and Kat Cora. Today's intention was to nourish our mind and our body, so I hope we inspired you to redesign your life as well.