217.Simple Ways To Get Over Heartbreak and Heal A Broken Heart with Florence Williams

Did you know that heartbreak can have profound effects on both our emotional and physical well-being?

In this episode, Dr. Adrienne Youdim interviews Florence Williams, an author and journalist, to explore the intricate relationship between heartbreak, nature, and healing. Florence shares her personal journey through heartbreak and the scientific insights she uncovered while writing her book, "Heartbreak: A Personal and Scientific Journey."

They discuss the various flavors of heartbreak, the physiological impacts of emotional pain, and the healing power of nature. Florence emphasizes the importance of connection, calm, and finding purpose in the healing process.

Who is Florence Williams?

• Author of "Heartbreak: A Personal and Scientific Journey"
• Journalist with a focus on the intersection of human health and the environment
• Advocate for the healing benefits of nature and community
• Experienced in leading retreats that connect people with the natural world

What You'll Discover:

• The different types of heartbreak and their emotional and physical consequences
• How heartbreak can affect our immune system and overall health
• The science behind the healing effects of nature and community
• Practical strategies for finding calm, connection, and purpose during difficult times
• The concept of "microdosing awe" and how it can enhance your well-being

Why This Episode Matters:

In a world filled with challenges and heartbreak, Florence's insights remind us of the importance of understanding our emotional experiences and their impact on our health. Her journey will equip you with the tools to:

• Validate your feelings of heartbreak and understand their physiological effects
• Explore the healing power of nature and community
• Cultivate a sense of awe and beauty in everyday life
• Embrace the idea that healing is a multifaceted journey that requires time and self-compassion

🎧 Tune in now and take the first step towards healing your heart and enhancing your well-being through a deeper understanding of the connection between heartbreak and nature!

"Our brains are wired to experience heartbreak and also wired to recover." - Florence Williams

Connect with Florence Wiliams

• Website: https://florencewilliams.com/ 
• Book: ‘Heartbreak: A Personal & Scientific Journey - https://florencewilliams.com/heartbreak/ 

Ways that Dr. Adrienne Youdim Can Support You

1. Join the Monthly Free Mind-Body Workshops: Participate in engaging mind-body practices designed to help manage your stress response. Register here.
2. Sign Up for the Newsletter: Stay updated with valuable insights and resources by subscribing to the newsletter. Sign up here.
3. Freebie alert. Register for our monthly free MindBody Workshop and receive a downloadable guide on emotional labeling to help you manage your emotions effectively.

Connect with Dr. Adrienne Youdim

• Website :https://www.dradriennespeaks.com/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dradrienneyoudim/

Transcript

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

Well, Health Bite podcasters, I have a super immense treat for you today. I'm so excited to introduce our guest, Florence Williams. I'm totally girl crushing on you right now, and I'm so happy to have you on the podcast. It's so great to be here, Adrienne. Thanks for inviting me. Of course. So I'm going to share a funny story that I shared with you earlier to our listeners. If anybody ever believes in fate, the universe, the power of what's meant to be, I had one of those moments in a bathroom in Nashville last year. We were having, we were at a speaker's conference and coming out of the bathroom stall, like women often do, I started chit chatting with the girl next to me. She was complaining about her underwear. I shared her my underwear hacks and found out that she was a coach and a speaker on the power of nature. And immediately, I thought I would give her a tip and ask her if she had read the book Heartbreak by our illustrious guest, Florence, and come to learn that Sarah, the person who I just met in the bathroom, was actually your partner in crime.

Florence Williams

Yes. Yes. Sarah and I lead retreats together in the wilderness in Colorado. And we were colleagues and friends. And so funny. That was the book you suggested.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

I mean, unbelievable, really. So I'll share a little bit of a backstory as to how I came across your book. And then I'm excited to get into your story and all of your pearls. And I have to say that I have been relatively lucky in my life. And in terms of heartbreak, I've been very grateful that I married my one and only boyfriend, my high school sweetheart. And 25 years later, we're married with three children, and I guess, yay me, right? However, it is amazing. And so I had an experienced heartbreak until October 7th, two years ago, when the Hamas attacks happened in Israel. And of course, I was heartbroken by what happened there. And I think even more heartbroken by what transpired thereafter. You know, the anti-Semitism that not happened, but I guess was unearthed in the United States and across the world. I had to come to terms with questioning my politics, my belief in the academic institutions I had, you know, admired, I lost friends, and Florence, like, I really, I really was heartbroken. I mean, I experienced all of the stages of grief. I wasn't able to concentrate. I wasn't able to focus. I had to take a few days off from work, which, I mean, I went back to work you know, nine weeks after I had gave birth to my first child. So like all of this was very new to me. And so I searched Amazon for a book on heartbreak to get some strategies to get myself out of what felt like this impenetrable grief that I was experiencing. And I was so lucky to come across your book. I got it in print and in audibles. And it really was very transformative for me, not only to hear your story, which I want you to share with us, but also all the nerdy science that I absolutely love backing up your findings.

Florence Williams

Oh, great. Well, I'm glad to hear that it was helpful for your brand of heartbreak. You know, I often say that there are many different flavors of heartbreak, and the one in my book is really about romantic heartbreak after a long marriage ends. But I'm really glad to hear that it was helpful for your experience as well. That's good to know.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

I think that's really an important point for us, because yeah, when we think about heartbreak, we think about romantic heartbreak. And of course, that was the seminal story in your book. But I think it's important for people to know that that heartbreak can come in different flavors and different experiences, and even things like world affairs or disappointment at home and friendships can cause heartbreak.

Florence Williams

Yeah. And, you know, climate catastrophe, um, disaster and heartbreak of, of losing your house or parts of your community watching environmental change, uh, ecological change. I think, I think unfortunately we have many sources of heartbreak right now.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

Indeed, we're on the tails of the LA fires here. And so many who are listening have lost their homes and or just their routines. And I used to hike to Mescal Canyon every Sunday and that's no longer available to us, sadly. It's such a beautiful spot. So share with us, Florence, kind of how you came to writing this book.

Florence Williams

Yeah, sure. So, um, you know, I've been a journalist for a long time. I had written two books before this one. I always kind of write loosely in the first person, but a lot about science and often about the environment. So I'm really interested in the ways that sort of the hidden connections between human health. and the world around us, whether that's looking at a body part. My first book was really an environmental history of breasts. And I talked about why breast cancer is increasing in modern life, why we're seeing early puberty. why we have toxins in breast milk and so on. And then my second book was really about how the environment can help us and why it's so life-giving and health-giving to spend time in nature. Again, just sort of loosely based on my personal life, framed in that. Um, but when my husband of 25 years, uh, fell in love with someone else and, uh, you know, wanted to leave the marriage, um, it was really a different level of. Personal exploration, you know, that I was being sort of called upon to do, and I felt called upon to do it because a, that was my job and it was sort of how I got out of bed in the morning. was to write about, you know, questions arising in my own life. But also, I felt that this was a story that really needed to be told. You know, there was so much in popular culture about heartbreak. There's so much great music. There have been great poems for millennia, but there wasn't a lot of science about why it hurt so much, why it affected our bodies. You know, really, I had never experienced heartbreak either. Like you, I'd been married for 25 years. I met my husband when I was 18 and had sort of a charmed existence in terms of that. But after the split, I got sick and I felt bad. I wasn't sleeping. I lost a ton of weight. I was really stressed out. I was really anxious. And it just led me to a bunch of questions of like, why is this affecting my immune system? You know, I thought this was an emotional catastrophe. Why is it? Why is it affecting my my blood cells? And, you know, I was fortunate to I was working on a project at the time, which was an audible original about, again, why we feel so good in nature, kind of based on my second book, and I had an opportunity to go to this wonderful conference in Colorado, the Aspen Ideas Festival. I was a speaker there, but I also met Helen Fisher, who was a very famous writer, the author of The Anatomy of Love, a biological anthropologist who had written a lot about the sort of the hormones and the chemical cascade of falling in love. And when I met her, I said, oh my God, I love your work. And have you ever done any research about what happens on the other side? What happens when love ends? And she said, oh my goodness, yes, I have. And she said, are you losing weight? Are you having trouble sleeping? Are you feeling anxious? And she said, I can tell you all about what's happening in your brain. And so when I sat down with her and did that interview, I realized I had a book.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

That's incredible. You had your own bathroom moment. Yeah, exactly. That's right. So I love that you, um, you come forward with the science because I think that's, I mean, aside from it being totally interesting and intriguing, I think it validates the experience for people when they know that this isn't just something that's in their heads, that this isn't weakness or, you know, all the other ways in which we dismiss our emotional experiences. it helps us validate the reality that it impacts not just the mind or not just the emotion, but actual physical mind and body as well.

Florence Williams

Yeah, that's right. And what I really learned, you know, through doing a lot of research with the neuroscientists, people who are imaging brains, the immunologists, the psychologists, is that we are really wired to feel heartbreak. You know, our brains have long evolved to take this kind of social pain really seriously. You know, because in our deep past, when we didn't feel secure in our social bonds, our lives were literally threatened. You know, if we didn't feel safe in our clan, in our kin group, we were much more likely to be attacked. we were more likely to hurt ourselves, you know, stumbling through the forest by ourselves. And so as with many mammals who are very social, you know, we are supposed to really notice when we've been sort of cast out or when we've been rejected or when we're facing a big loss. But just as our brains are wired to experience this, they're also wired to recover. And I found all of this fascinating and wildly reassuring. And you're right, just knowing that it was kind of a universal and normal experience, because at the time it doesn't feel universal. It's not like all your friends are going through this at the same time. Even just that can help really like tone down the anxiety, which needs to happen if we're going to get healthy.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

Yeah, as you were talking, it made me think a lot of times on this podcast, I say that our brains don't care if we're happy. They just care that we're alive. And so it speaks to what you're saying, that this, the feeling of heartbreak and the depth to which we experience it is really rooted in our survival.

Florence Williams

It is. And it's actually adaptive. It's adaptive to feel all that pain. And, you know, it sort of was hard for me to sort of understand that it was like, but you know, if it hurts so much, why, why do our white blood cells also have to get involved? You know, why do we have to get sick on top of being heartbroken just didn't seem fair. And so I really dived into what is the evolutionary adaptation of that. And I think it's, you know, it's a really fascinating story because it has to do with our bodies trying to keep us safe, as you're saying. You know, if we put out a lot of inflammation markers and upregulate for inflammation in our immune system, that does protect us from being attacked. It does protect us from being injured in the short term. But if we continue to feel lonely, if we continue to feel heartbroken, We know that lonelier people die younger on average, they experience more disease, they're more likely to have dementia. they're more likely to have all kinds of cardiovascular disease, cancers, all kinds of things. And this has just recently been studied really in the last couple of decades. And so I worked with a researcher at UCLA to actually test my own blood, which was fascinating. We took blood samples at various time points after the split to find out if I was getting better, if my immune system was showing that I was getting better. And then also which of the interventions that I tried across the course of a couple of years while writing the book were most helpful.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

Yeah. And you already kind of alluded to some of this, but can you teach us a little bit more about what those physical consequences of heartbreak or loneliness, what are they specifically?

Florence Williams

Yeah, so they do really seem to have to do with inflammation. And again, sort of preparing our bodies for assault, you know, attack, injury. And if it just goes on for a long time, I mean, any kind of long-term inflammation we know now, you know, is linked to all sorts of really negative health outcomes from neurocognitive to cardiovascular um to just like pain you know at one point i talked to a neuroscientist who said that you know people who feel heartbroken actually experience more physical pain and he said you know don't fall on the ice don't slip on the ice if you're heartbroken because it's gonna hurt more wow And again, that's just, you know, from the inflammation sort of coursing through our bodies. And of course the opposite is true too. And this is kind of interesting. There've been a lot of studies, for example, giving people an electrical shock or, you know, making them feel pain from like very hot water or a finger press or something like that while they're gazing at a picture of a loved one. And if you're gazing at a picture of a loved one, if you're holding hands with a loved one, you're gonna feel less pain. So that's another argument in favor of why it's helpful to have strong relationships. And they don't have to be romantic relationships, but even if you have people you care about, who you can count on, people who sort of have your back, it really eases the anxiety. And it turns out it also eases those inflammatory transcription factors coursing through our blood in any given day.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

What I love about that example is that you can, even the picture, right? So, you know, sometimes we feel like we're not connected with the people that we love, but even bringing to mind somebody who you may not be in contact with, you know, a friend who's moved away or even someone who's passed, right? Can give you that sense of, connection, belonging that's healing to the body.

Florence Williams

And we also produce oxytocin when we're hearing a loved one's voice, you know, or gazing at a picture, potentially looking at our dog's eyes. we know oxytocin gets released in both the dog and the human. And oxytocin is a really fascinating neurotransmitter. You know, it's often called the sort of bonding hormone. We release it when we're breastfeeding, for example, but we know that it also counteracts cortisol. which is a stress hormone. And as I found out, this is a really interesting argument. There's so many things you hear when you're heartbroken, and one of them is, oh, you shouldn't rebound. You shouldn't seek a rebound relationship too fast because you need to work on yourself, and you need to learn to love yourself, and you're not ready, all this stuff. And I was like, well, where's the science in that? Show me the science. And in fact, there isn't any science. And there's more science indicating that if you do have a rebound relationship that feels good, that feels safe, you know, and not all of them are going to, but if you have one that feels safe, that's actually gonna help relieve your stress. You know, it's human touch, skin-to-skin touch, sex. These, we now know, trigger oxytocin and counteract stress hormones.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

I absolutely loved your rebound story. It was wonderful. So can you share a little bit about, so you had this heartbreak. Tell us the journey that you took for healing.

Florence Williams

Yeah, so when I heard about how bad it is for our health to be heartbroken, And that divorced people have the worst health outcomes of anybody. They die younger and get sicker than people who've never been married, which I thought was fascinating. I was really determined to try to get better. And in fact, I got diagnosed with type one diabetes after my marriage split, which is an autoimmune related disease. And I really was freaked out and really wanted to try to get those immune markers better, get my inflammation markers better. So I tried a bunch of things, different kinds of therapy. I tried EMDR, which is a kind of trauma therapy. I tried regular talk therapy. I tried spending a lot of time in nature. I did a 14 day river trip solo in a bid to try to find awe and beauty. because I heard from one of these really fascinating researchers I talked to that people who are more prone to finding beauty are more resilient and less likely to suffer from those bad health outcomes of stress or stress related events. So I tried really hard to find awe and beauty for a couple of years. I tried to connect to people who were important to me, you know, my friends and family and other loved ones. I tried psychedelic therapy. ultimately towards the end of the book, because all the nature and all the wilderness didn't fully do the trick, which was disappointing because I was very invested in that idea. But you know, heartbreak, it's a very cataclysmic event in that it's not something you can just find some magic bullet that's gonna make you better in 30 days. You know, the biggest cure of all is time. Unfortunately, and we know from the research, some epidemiological studies, that people who have been long married and go through divorce, on average, it takes four years for their bodies to return to baseline. And that's the ones who do recover. There's like a subset, 10 to 15% of people really don't get over heartbreak. And that's another reason I felt really motivated to write this book, because if I can help some of those people get further motivated, to heal. I think that's a big service.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

Absolutely. And what I love about your experience is that you do bring all of these different modalities, which for me is a very uplifting message that there are so many ways to go about this. And that to your point, it's not like one and done and maybe one thing is not going to do it, you know, be the fix, which is what we are invariably looking for all the time, the one big fix. But to me, that's not discouraging. It's actually very reassuring that you can get pieces of healing through all of these different modalities. And my read of your experience, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you really did get healing from the complement of all these various things that you explored and that you write about.

Florence Williams

Yeah, I think I did. Everything moved the needle a little bit. Um, and ultimately at the end of my journey, you know, I was able to sort of put those interventions into three big buckets. Um, the first one being calm, like it's really important to try to calm your nervous system so that you're not in the state of threat, um, very long. Um, so however it is you do that, you know, whether it's breathing or walking or moving or, you know, what, however you do it. Very important to try to find some calm. And then the second bucket is connection. So again, like authentically connecting with your friends and family. For me, it was the natural world as well, a huge source of comfort and connection. And then the third piece is really finding purpose and meaning through this experience that you can take moving forward. whether it's to help other people or whatever kind of purpose you can find, that is actually the most important piece in terms of changing our cellular response to the stress.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

It speaks so much to like our personal agency, right? Like we have the ability to view experiences in a light that is healing. And we can do that. We don't have to wait for somebody else to do it.

Florence Williams

But it is very hard to do alone. You know, it's one of those things that is best done kind of in community and through connection with others.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

And so as you mentioned, you were an avid naturist and had always been active in the outside world or natural world. What was the most surprising finding for you throughout all of this in terms of our relationship with nature, how it heals, what wowed you?

Florence Williams

Well, what really wowed me was this conversation I had with Dr. Paula Williams at the University of Utah, who studies resilience. And she used to study sleep. Why don't some people sleep well? What helps them sleep well? What helps people be resilient through life's difficulties? And what she noticed through these very large-scale brain scans and doing personality tests on people was that the people who are most open on the personality test, and that means open to experience, open to curiosity, open to beauty, open to awe, specifically people who are more prone to feeling awe, these are the people with more connected brains, more interconnected connections in their brains, more ability to kind of rebound after life's difficulties. And that really surprised me. I'd never heard that as a heartbreak cure, you know, like go look at a flower and you'll cure your heartbreak. I mean, I had never heard that. So I thought that was wildly interesting. And then the other thing that was very encouraging was she said that openness is the one personality trait that you can actually move the needle on a little bit. By practicing finding beauty, you can become better at it. And that in turn can make you kind of more open to noticing things around you. more mindful as you proceed through life. We know all of these things are linked to mental health. So that was the major message I wanted to get out there that was so surprising. You can learn to find beauty, and that will make you happier.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

I'm so glad you said that, because the next question I was going to ask you was, what would you say to those people who just don't believe it? People say, oh, this is nonsense. But what you're saying is that even that belief, that openness to the possibility of it being true is something that you can cultivate and that you can grow.

Florence Williams

Yeah, that's right. And, and, you know, openness is in general linked to all kinds of positive outcomes, you know, not just happiness, but people who are more open, tend to have more fulfilling relationships. They tend to have more income, you know, in their careers, they tend to be more curious, they're, they're learners, and they have a growth mindset. So it's not just heartbreak that being open can help you with. So it's really worth it's worth developing. and expanding that personality trait for sure. And there's some interesting ways to do it. And I think actually being in nature is a really easy, fun, accessible way to do it.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

Yeah, certainly accessible. I always share on this podcast that what is good for your physical health, is you know i used to say you know when i started doing exploring more mental health and emotional health and well-being i used to say well what's good for your physical health is good for your mental health and then it turned out that it's also good for your relational health and now we're finding you know that it's also good for your professional health so You know, what's good for your physical health and mental health and relational health and professional health is one of the same. So whatever whatever it is that you're really caring to improve on, these strategies are useful.

Florence Williams

Yeah, I think that's right. And it makes sense. I mean, curiosity is linked to happiness, it's linked to optimism. People who are curious are sort of, they seem to have a little bit of a better attitude about even when negative things happen, they're curious about how to get better, they're curious about what it means for them, they're curious about how they might grow through it, what they can take from this experience to help other people. And so the curiosity, openness, awe, access is, I think, really an interesting one that's worth spending time in. And frankly, we just don't hear about it very much.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

We don't hear about it. And it's so timely right now. I mean, I'm just thinking about how whoever you are, whatever you believe in, I think, I haven't talked to anybody who doesn't open up their phone and doesn't feel distressed about something that they read. either politically or world affairs, or to your point, environmentally. It doesn't matter who you are, what your background is, what your political affiliation. So I wonder if you can speak to that a little bit more specifically. For people right now who are feeling so doom and gloom about what's happening, can you link this concept of openness, curiosity, possibility,

Florence Williams

Yeah, I can. I think it's really easy to feel overwhelmed by the news and by the state of the world and want to just kind of crawl back into bed and put the covers over your head for a while. And I certainly have had that tendency as well. But if we really want to help make the world a better place, we need to be mentally healthy. We need to have some energy. We need to have some hope. we need to be able to get out of bed in the morning. And I think that one of the pathways to doing that is through finding some, again, calm connection and purpose. If we can actually see the beauty in the world around us, it's very motivating. You know, we can understand that yes, there is a climate catastrophe going on. But there are still a lot of living things in the world that are functioning and thriving and creating beauty and going about their life cycle. And if we can stop for a moment and savor and appreciate and value, you know, the sort of beautiful world around us, whether it's looking at the sunset, you know, or watching the cycles of the moon, or watching the changing leaf, leaf colors in the trees or looking at the birds. I mean, a lot of people right now are finding a lot of solace, I think, and comfort in birdwatching, for example. But however it is it for you, for some of your listeners, it may be music, you know, maybe listening to a symphony or an aria, or reading poetry, or looking at paintings or looking at art or dancing. However, it is that you're able to find some awe and joy in the world, that's going to feed you and fuel you to motivate you to actually fight for this world. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

I love that. Beautifully said. I was really impressed with some of the studies that you talked about towards the end of the book. I think in terms of groups that had been led in nature, And I meant to go back and highlight those. But can you share some of that data, some of the findings that you shared in your book in terms of the tangible effects of experiencing nature and some of the groups that perhaps even you have personally led in the work that you do?

Florence Williams

Yeah, I mean, I can tell you, I take groups of women out into the wilderness for a few days at a time. I often take heartbroken people because they've read my book. or they're going through whatever kind of transition. A lot of people love nature, they like nature, but they're not necessarily comfortable going out in it by themselves. And so that's something that we can provide is this really safe, accessible way to enjoy nature together and also have a great time. And what I see is that as we work on some nature connection and immersion sort of exercises, we spend time you know, just waking up our sensory bodies and sort of turning off our prefrontal cortex or that inner voice, you know, if we can quiet that down and kind of wake up our senses, that is really a shortcut to things like a shifted nervous system. So a reduction in stress hormones, a reduction in blood pressure, a slowing down of respiration, slowing down of digestion, you know, these things that happen when we shift our nervous system into a calmer state. where our biological processes, things like digestion, you know, can work better. People sleep better, they eat better, they laugh more, food tastes better outside. You know, we can experience all of these things happening when we're outside for a couple of days at a time.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

And you've even shown, or you even described in your book that people who had experienced severe trauma, and we're coming from a really maybe dark place, we're able to have these benefits within relatively short periods of time, right?

Florence Williams

Yeah, I mean, in my book, The Nature Fix, you know, I end in heartbreak, I talk about groups being outside for three days, and that there's something called the three day effect. And that, you know, if you're going through grief or trauma, Three days begins to introduce you to a state where you have the time and space to process some big emotions and to learn to feel your feelings again in a safe way, to learn to process your sensory motor neurons in a safe place. People who have PTSD, for example, from war, You're hyper vigilant, you know, there's too much stimulation in the world around them. If they hear a book drop, it sounds like gunfire. And so to survive, they sort of shut down and they close off their world. But when you're outside in a beautiful nature space, it feels safe to open up your senses again. You want to hear the birds sing. You want to see the light on the canyon wall. You want to hear the sound of the water against the boat. And so your entire peripheral nerves, your perceptual systems, all these naturally evolved systems in your body start functioning again the way they were designed to function, which is that they start feeling what it is to feel to be alive in the world. And that is so mentally healthy and life-giving and optimism-giving. And it's the beginning of a journey toward becoming whole again.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

Yeah, I mean, it just feels like the word that kept flashing in my head is like therapy. It is nature therapy. Yes.

Florence Williams

It is. And I am not a therapist, and I don't need to be one to take groups of people outside. It's the land that does the healing. And that's really beautiful to see.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

Yeah. And again, very applicable. And I think what I would love for the listeners to take away from this is that We are all experiencing something, right? So even if you didn't experience heartbreak or don't have PTSD from war or something else, I mean, many people out there do, we're all on some continuum that could benefit from this kind of healing. That's right.

Florence Williams

That's right. And in fact, modern life really does us a disservice by cutting us off from the things that naturally gave us off, you know, as we evolved. I mean, we used to look at the night sky every night. We used to look at the sunset every day. We had these sort of naturally built-in ways to recover from stress. And modern life just separates us from that healing. And so we have to work a little harder, you know, to try to put it back. But when we do, it really pays off.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

Yeah, absolutely. You know, you've given us all the whys, all the reasons to do the thing, and a lot of it is intuitive, right? Like, we know this. It's wonderful when there's studies that back it up, but it's also very intuitive. And yet... and yet we find trouble to do this. So what would you say to, I don't know, a busy mom or a busy executive who's listening to this and is like, yeah, like I've got the buy-in, right? I'm hearing you. And yet I don't know where to begin or how to incorporate this.

Florence Williams

I really love this concept of microdosing off. And it's really an idea proposed by a doctor and a psychiatrist or psychologist, Michael Amster and Jake Eagle. And they have a book called something like The Power of Awe. But they talk about this idea of microdosing awe. And I participated in one of their studies where I went out once or twice a day and just found something beautiful to look at. whether it was a flower or a tree or a bowl of soup, you know, whatever it is. And there's an acronym for the practice. It's A-W-E. So the A is just pay attention, right, to this beautiful thing. The W stands for wait. And the E stands for exhale. So you spend just a few breath cycles looking at this beautiful thing, and that's it. It takes 30 seconds, you're done. But at the end of six weeks, the researchers found that people had a 30% reduction in feelings of anxiety and depression, also feelings of physical pain. reduced. So it's quite an effective practice. And what's amazing about it is that if you do it twice a day for six weeks, all of a sudden, it's just second nature, you know, when you're out on a walk, you're going to notice that pine cone, or you're going to notice your neighbor's flower. And you're not just going to rush right by it, because you've spent six weeks kind of tuning in. And so it's a really great practice that I highly recommend.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

Yeah, I love that. It's, you know, I feel like I do this. And funny enough, I was talking to my youngest child this morning. She was having a hard time going to school. And I feel like in essence, I was saying what you're saying. But this is such a actionable advice you've given. If we can all just put into our phones even, two AWE breaks throughout the day. Yes. It's a very bite-sized, tangible piece of advice. I love that. Great. Try it, everyone. Microdose them off. Yeah, I'm going to do that. Well, this has been such a lovely conversation. And aside from the fact that I absolutely adored the book and the reading of the book in Audible, it was just it really was a bomb for my soul at the time. I loved it. I am going to consider and explore your lead hikes. It's something that I think I would love to do. So that's my second action item. And I'm going to put my awe breaks into my phone, so. Oh, good. Yeah, that's wonderful. For people who want to learn more about your offerings, where can they find you?

Florence Williams

Thank you so much for asking. There's lots of information about books, podcasts, retreats that we lead. on my website, which is florencewilliams.com. I'm also on Instagram, I'm on Facebook, you know, the usual places. So I'd love to hear from anyone and happy to answer any questions about retreats or anything else. Wonderful.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

We'll definitely link those in the show notes. And thank you again, Florence. Like I said, this was my my girl crush and it was It was a joy to speak with you today.

Florence Williams

Well, back at you, Adrienne. Thank you so much for having me. It's really been fun.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim

Yeah, it's been wonderful. And to all the listeners, go check out Florence Williams on her website and on her socials. And if you feel like anybody could use this message right now, which is pretty much everybody who's on the planet, share this episode and share the love. Thanks again, Florence. Thanks, Adrienne.