Curious Coworkers: Decoding Barbie's Impact on Society and Identity

*Spoiler Alert*

Remember the warm nostalgia of the Barbie doll? Join us as we journey down memory lane with our childhood companion in a conversation with Celine Miranda, 1% for the Planet's Account Manager for Eastern North America, and Tara Jenkins, CEO and Founder of Conscious Revolution. Reflecting on the iconic movie "Barbie", we discuss how these toys have left a lasting impression on us, causing us to explore deeper and challenge our thoughts. Together, we unpack some of the messaging behind the movie, and how it incorporates the past and the present to teach us about empowerment and dreaming big.

Transitioning from our childhood memories, we analyze how our reactions to the movie "Barbie" impacted each of us. We consider the cultural and societal implications of this iconic doll and the film. The production value, lack of CGI, and the strategic use of handmade sets are just a few of the aspects we discuss. Moreover, we examine how different the conversation might have been had we grown up in different decades, exploring the impact of Barbie on different generations.

Finally, we reflect on the evolution of Barbie, from being a subject of criticism to being a symbol of empowerment through the process of rebranding. We discuss how this movie, and the makeover of Barbie as a character, bridged the gap between the criticisms and the rebranding of the product. We consider the implications of consumer capitalism in the marketing of the movie. Join us as we uncover the gap between our interests and values, and how the movie "Barbie" helps us bridge it.

Links from this Episode
Learn more about 1% for the Planet in our conversation with Celine Miranda

Learn about the differences in B Corp Certification and becoming a Benefit Corporation in our conversation with Tara Jenkins

UNBOXING BARBIE: A FILMIC ODE TO EMPOWERMENT AND SELF-DISCOVERY - Read our blog about Barbie

Visit 1% for the Planet's Website

Visit Conscious Revolution's Website

Dirigo Collective Website

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:19

Welcome to Curious Coworkers, a responsibly different talk show that explores those moments when our interests conflict with our values. We have a super special episode for you today. Now, if you haven't yet seen Barbie, first off, we highly recommend that you do. And we highly recommend that you do it before you listen to this episode. As this episode is going to be chock full of spoilers, and in case you're like me and you start listening to a podcast just as you settle into an activity like driving or washing dishes, I'm going to tell you a bit more about how this episode came to be and our guests, celine Miranda and Tara Jenkins, to give you some time to stop this episode if you haven't yet seen the movie.

Speaker 1: 1:23

So last week, brittany attended a local 1% for the planet event here in Portland, maine. 1% for the planet is a global movement where businesses commit to donating 1% of their annual revenue to environmental causes and initiatives. Think of it like a corporate tax for the environment. Behind it is the 1% for the planet nonprofit that reviews and certifies those corporate donations and creates learning and connection opportunities for businesses. At that 1% for the planet event, brittany ran into two of our good friends 1% for the planet's account manager for Eastern North America, celine Miranda, and Tara Jenkins, the CEO and founder of Conscious Revolution, a certified B Corp and 1% for the planet member that helps businesses deepen their commitment to purpose and stakeholder value.

Speaker 1: 2:14

The three of them got to chatting about Barbie and the conversation was so rich we wanted to continue it here on Curious Co-workers. We hope you enjoy our conversation about one of this summer's biggest hits and its implications for each of us and our society. So let's jump in. So to kind of kick us off here, friends first off super excited for this conversation, but to kind of like set the stage here for each of us and kind of like what we're bringing to the table. I would just be curious for each to share kind of what did Barbie mean to you before seeing the movie and did you have any expectations? Tara, you want to kick us off.

Speaker 2: 3:02

Yeah, yeah, sure. So I'd say Barbie is quite nostalgic to me. Before seeing the movie and in a way of like confusing in terms of as I was thinking about it and looking at my old Barbie stuff, which I thankfully still have, and seeing like it all laid out of the messages of like I had so many things like for the kitchen at the same time that I had like so many glamorous outfits for my night events as Barbie and I played with Barbies a lot when I was younger and I did have the whole dream house set up and the nostalgic piece comes from like I played with Barbies a lot and kind of like imagined things, but I think I imagine things in a very contrived way of what Mattel was feeding to me and so I had a lot of suspicion about Barbie yes, is how I would leave that before the movie.

Speaker 3: 4:00

I don't have that many particular memories of playing with Barbies growing up. It was not one of my most played with toys. That I think of my childhood the few memories I have of Barbie, so my dad, so it was like me and my sister and then my dad was single for a minute, my parents were divorced or whatever, and I had this moment where it was like my sister and my dad's house single father, you know and I grabbed one of my Barbies. I was probably six and I was going to teach my dad how to braid hair because he didn't know, and so I decided to show him how to braid hair on my Barbie so that he could then braid my hair when I went to school in the morning and like that's like one of my earliest memories of Barbie.

Speaker 3: 4:48

And then like the following memory is then of me cutting off the Barbies hair because I thought it was too perfect and I just went grab scissors, went into the garage and like cut the hair and then I wanted weird short haired Barbie. So like it was so funny thinking of. Like these are the like very vivid memories I had as a child of my experience with Barbie. So I think going in the film I was more focused on like the nostalgia and of like I want to kind of get more connected to this Barbie land. I think it's going to activate more memories perhaps, but I was more going in for just like an entertainment side of things, less like real personal connection.

Speaker 4: 5:30

I can resonate with you, celine, because I would say from my childhood, early 90s, the thing for me with Barbie was the nostalgic value that Barbie had for me. It taught me at such this like young childhood development age that I need to imagine this like made up world for my toys to be a part of. So I always like I viewed Barbie as this way to like create an outside world that maybe I wanted my life to look like, and a lot of that outside world. Barbie gave me this idea of empowerment and I don't think I'm alone in thinking this, but maybe I'm the only one here in thinking this, which is why I love conversations with multiple people, because we all have diverse backgrounds.

Speaker 4: 6:17

But Barbie always like was this polished character that like embodied empowerment to me. So it like one, it taught me that I always had to be polished, not true? And then, two, it always told me that like, I can like have these like ambitions of being powerful, but like, over the years, barbie also taught me that like, I could push myself to always dream big and pursue my passions. So I do think of Barbie in this like childhood nostalgic way that like developed me into like the empowered person I am today.

Speaker 2: 6:55

Well, that's so interesting to hear because it's so different than how I would describe it, and it makes me curious about like we were do do our own long term Barbie study, which I'm not suggesting that you're going to do. That would be fun, like my timeline would have been like early 80s and your timelines in the 90s, and what would have happened with Barbie during that time would have changed, because culturally things were changing too. And so I don't I don't know if I had had the same time frame as you that I would have gotten maybe a similar message. I certainly hope so, but that's really interesting.

Speaker 3: 7:33

Yeah, I'll also share, I think, another memory I had with Barbie. I was in, I believe, third grade, going over to my friend's house to play and his mom I kid you not in the living room, two full ombars full of Barbies in their original packaging, like all the different Barbies and collection items, and for I was sitting there being like this is an adult woman, why does she have a whole collection of Barbies in boxes, behind a glass case, Like that's not what they're made for? Why are we not playing with them? I don't get it and I was too young to understand like the potential significance for a woman of her age and like collecting it and what Barbie might have represented for her growing up. But like I do have that memory of like going into the house and being like this is so weird. Why are they in boxes and behind this glass case? So that kind of made me think about what you just said too of a long term Barbie study.

Speaker 2: 8:39

Yes.

Speaker 1: 8:41

That's amazing. I remember. So I actually had quite a few Barbies and my grandfather made me this like epic Barbie because, for listeners that aren't from there, I'm a trans guy. So you know, grew up as a young woman, if you would and had like. My grandfather made me this like epic Barbie house. So that's like all I can think of is like this like epic Barbie house that he built me and I couldn't tell you any of the like professions or the like things that Barbie had or any of that stuff.

Speaker 1: 9:11

I remember the pink car and I remember just like playing almost every day with Barbies with my friends, and but I also was always like really drawn to like this is really kind of ironic given this movie but like the Ken dolls, like I just was, like I just really and I maybe that's also part of my like transness, right, they're like I identified more with the male dolls than with with Barbie, but it just was interesting because I just never, like I never found Barbie to be relatable and I don't know if that's the era that I was, you know, because of this would have been late 80s, early 90s that I was playing with them in, or if it was, or if it was me you know. But so it's interesting how Barbie certainly touches all of our lives in like totally different ways. So with that let's jump into the movie. Like first thoughts, hot takes, like what, what came up for folks?

Speaker 2: 10:06

Well, I'll start at maybe the beginning of the movie, because it was at the beginning. I had a little bit of a like mind shift at the beginning in thinking about Barbie's value, of how they were describing Ruth who, you know, founded Barbie or created Barbie, I think, at this point, saying like they're this, girls played with dolls and you know they do that amazing, you know, smashing scene and all that.

Speaker 2: 10:35

And in that moment I was like oh yeah, like I didn't play with dolls, I didn't play the role model of a mother in most of my playing. I did have Cabbage Patch Kids, which is probably a whole other podcast I have, but I did have Cabbage Patch Kids for a little period of time, but more of my playing for sure was Barbie. So the thing to it just was like oh, that really is quite a feminist message. It was, I think, corrupted in a lot of ways the people that were leading it, I tell and in its core it was a feminist message of like you can be like going back to what Bernie's saying I'd like the empowerment piece was maybe what Ruth had in mind, and so that was my first like oh, right off the bat I got like, hmm, this is something that I'm getting from this and I accept it.

Speaker 4: 11:28

So I have a hot take and it kind of goes into like what Ben was saying but you brought up Ken. Can I just say like I don't remember Alan from like quote, unquote, like real life, like I don't remember Alan ever being a doll and like is that the whole point of the movie, to be like Alan was a forgotten character, like yeah, I think you're right that most people probably didn't remember Alan when he was mentioned.

Speaker 4: 11:59

I kind of remembered him but I never had him or played with him or he was like pretty irrelevant OK and then my other kind of hot take is and maybe this podcast will help me like work through my feelings and by the end I can say that I did like the movie. But right now I'm kind of going to say I actually didn't love the movie. But the reason why I didn't love it and I think like the butt is really important here I didn't love the movie because, well one, I don't like going to the movie theaters, so the fact that I had to go into a theater and like sit near people like I hate people, like so that was hard for me to get over. But I didn't love the movie because traditional movies for me are like an escape from reality. It's like where I go to get out of my head, how I relax.

Speaker 4: 12:53

And Barbie was the exact opposite of that. Like Barbie made me think. Barbie made me like sit in my seat and be uncomfortable, and the whole time I was like seriously relating to every little bit of it and I was like this is making me so uncomfortable, like I was having real childhood trauma coming back up in a movie. And that's why it's like without any context, like I feel very confident saying I did not like that movie. But I didn't like that movie because it challenged me to think deeper about my past in ways that, like a therapist, would make me like, be like, oh well, why is that so?

Speaker 3: 13:39

Barbie's my therapist. My god, I love that. So I will say I've now seen the movie twice and I still love it, Like I really do. I really loved it. I thought it was fun I mean, give me some existential crisis and a bit of glitter and like choreography and I'm happy, I'm so happy, Like I was here for every bit of what Greta Gerwig was giving us in the outlandish, the color, the surrealism, the over the topness. I was like give it to me.

Speaker 3: 14:26

I'm a theater girl, Like I've done theater production, so like this is maybe really speaking to me, and like I loved having so many of the conversations I have in normal life delivered to me in a platform and through a media that I'm like I've been in this, this is where I thrive. So I loved being kind of separate from you, Brittany, where it's like you didn't enjoy having those conversations brought to you. I was like I love having it delivered to me in a media that I understand and like making it fun and funny, and so it just felt like then it became less serious and less daunting and I can like kind of break it down a little bit more. So.

Speaker 2: 15:08

I did love it. Yeah, I'll say ditto to everything you just said, celine. Like for me, I have also seen it twice and I feel the same way and I really wanted to be critical of it in some way. And so I like went right a whole bunch of things and tried to find a way that I could be like critical of it and I really can't find it Sorry.

Speaker 1: 15:31

I just can't.

Speaker 2: 15:32

The people that were critical of it. I was like no, that's pretty lame, that's not convincing me of anything and I think the combination. I'm a theater wannabe, I certainly never did it, but I love all of that and I think it is incredibly strategic, totally, totally. And I rarely see that on a progressive liberal side, and so that part is amazing to me, like what could be done with this type of plan. That is really interesting.

Speaker 1: 16:02

Yeah, I love that and I feel like too, speaking kind of building on that the production value, just the thoughtfulness, like the fact that so much of that movie could have been CGI and literally there's none in the whole thing, like the whole thing is handmade sets, and I mean just from a production value alone. It just was like a mind-blowing experience and I won't claim to be a cinephile, but I only start to the imagination and, similar to Utah, I definitely want to binge. Immediately after the movie. I was like I have to hear every interview, I want to dissect the crud out of this, just all the things. And then you start to learn about all of the film references that are built into this and then it's like it just is so well done in such a beautiful way.

Speaker 1: 17:01

I think for me the first thing that really kind of felt like oh OK, like a buckle-up moment for me of this movie was right after that opening scene when we're getting that tour of Barbie Land and we meet the Supreme Court justices there and we were talking about this just as you were hopping on the counter because I couldn't.

Speaker 1: 17:19

I really wanted to find the original quote, because I wanted to recite it here, but I couldn't find it. But they essentially referenced Citizens United and how messed up it is that corporations shouldn't have freedom of speech in our politics. And I don't know that's an issue for me, that I just is something I just care so deeply about, and so for them to hit us with it right out the gate and I don't know. That just really was impressive. And then, of course, america for Errors' monologue there at the end was so powerful and it made me wish I had seen it, because we just saw it, brittany, and I just saw it yesterday with Celine and it was my first time seeing it and it made me and Celine, you had mentioned that when you saw it, I think you said during the opening week or opening day.

Speaker 3: 18:11

Opening weekend yeah, Opening weekend.

Speaker 1: 18:14

The entire audience stood and applauded, and that's something I just love, moments like that, and it makes me wish I saw this opening weekend, because it literally was like OK, cool, you could just end the movie there. You know what I mean Mic drop done Cool. For me, there were these pieces of it that were cathartic, just to like we're like oh, thank God someone's saying it and I know millions of people are seeing this, because maybe not everybody watches the news or is tuned in, but it seems like everyone's going to show up to Barbie. So there was one thing that I would be curious to get folks' thoughts on, but the thing I struggled a little bit with. I was like I don't know how I feel about it In the end, how essentially they plot to distract and divide the kens amongst themselves.

Speaker 1: 19:09

Right, We've literally seen that in history so many times and we're living it now and it's such a classic political move that for me I kind of was like I don't know, I feel so conflicted about it, even now talking about it, because I'm like well, yeah, it makes sense that it's in there, because it's pointing out this thing that we do as humans or as a society, and but at the same time, I kind of didn't want it, because we're coming off of this amazing moment with America Ferrera and I just wanted to bask in that a little bit before going right back into our actual reality, which is what that felt like for me. So, yeah, I don't know. I, yeah there's. Yeah, I don't know. So I enjoyed it overall. It's the kind of movie I feel like I want to watch again and again and again, because there's just so much in there. I can see why both the Utahians and Selena have seen it twice. Are there any moments that stood out to you as, like, really poignant?

Speaker 2: 20:07

Well, I was bawling on the America Ferrera one the first time, so I'll say that for sure what I was reflecting on. Maybe it's not like one moment, but I definitely have never seen a movie where the word patriarchy was spoken out loud, and to me that is really significant. My kids have only probably ever heard me say the word patriot, and then they saw it said in a movie that's being said. It validated that I'm not making stuff up like it's a thing, because they always say, oh, that's mom and she's off on her tear. Of all the things that we need to be aware of to be good humans, I'm trying to raise good humans, and particularly a good human son, and so that part was astounding to me, the amount of times that was mentioned and that made me think about what opportunities it really gives us to continue the conversation about it.

Speaker 3: 21:10

There are so many moments I'm going to call out one in particular that I noticed. The first time I watched it, I didn't like kind of just like wash through it. Second time I was like, oh, interesting. And so it's the moment where Barbie's returned to Barbie Land. She goes to her dream house, the kens are taking over and she goes to Ken. She's like you can't just take something that we have worked so hard to build and tear it down in one day. And he's like literally no, figuratively and literally watch me. And I had this moment of like wait a minute. I had that exact thought this year with Roe versus Wade, and I was like with 2016 election, january 6, insurrection and I was like, whew, all right, we got deep there. And so that kind of made me kind of reflect a little bit more on the moment in our history that we're living at. That can change in one day. You just.

Speaker 3: 22:28

Sorry to turn the tables on that, but it gave me chills.

Speaker 4: 22:31

That one got me, that one got me. Yeah, it's interesting that you say like you had to watch it a second time to pick up on that, because I did pick up on that. I didn't think as deeply as you did about it, but I did pick up on that my first time seeing it and it is making me wonder, like what did I even not catch my first time watching it? Because there are so many things hidden within this one movie. The one that stood out to me was when they played Push by Matchbox 20 and I'm like, oh my God, I'm here for this song, like I want to sing along, like that song was my childhood, like I remember. You know I'm sitting in the car first time, driving by myself, and my friends are in the backseat and we're like screaming this song, like we loved this song. And then I'm like, oh, why are they playing this song right now in this movie? And then I'm like, oh my God, listen to the words of this song. And it's like how, as a child, did my mother and not even just my mother, I mean, why did radio stations play this song? Why did people let young women sing this song, hear this song and it just makes me go like what are the other crazy things that I didn't take the time to absorb, that were just around me, that I wasn't really paying attention to, but I was listening to or I was seeing? That like changed how I acted as a human. I mean, like she said, I don't know if I ever have been good enough Like that's a horrible line from this song.

Speaker 4: 24:15

I want to push you around, I will, I will. I want to push you down, I will, I will. I want to take you for granted, I will. Like no, no wonder why every single boy on the playground in elementary school is pushing the little girls around. Like no wonder why the girl is like on the ground crying and she doesn't feel good enough. Like this was the song that, as a child, I screamed at the top of my lungs in, like every day lived by, like that's the moment that stood out to me because it took me X amount of years. Pretend, like I put my age in there. I don't want the world knowing how old I am, but like it took me X amount of years to figure out that society is the way society is because of songs, art, culture, like no wonder why we're messed up.

Speaker 2: 25:14

Thank you for saying that, because I actually had a similar. I didn't. I don't think because of our different ages. I am 48. So we, I think we have quite a different age gap. I don't know what your age is. Right, I didn't.

Speaker 2: 25:29

That wasn't a part of my childhood, that song, but I heard that song all the time. I would sing along to the song like a similar, like experience around that, and when they started playing it, nice, I had the same thing, like my God, that's the lyrics of that song and how insidious this all is that we can be laying and perpetuating it, complete, even though that is not aligned with our values, and have it be pointed out in such a ridiculous way of how they displayed that song in the movie. And then what you were saying is really interesting. I love that you were thinking about it that way, because that's so. I didn't think about it, but I really read the name of what you're saying. But that that's the language and that that's everywhere and so pervasive and such conditioning that you know women and girls would be singing that song and saying I love this song. Like that's, like true, like corruption, corruption of the mind, incredible.

Speaker 4: 26:28

Incredible in all the wrong ways, though you know it's like for sure.

Speaker 4: 26:34

It well, and that's what I mean when, like I say, I sat there watching this movie and I was so incredibly uncomfortable because that's the moment that, like, sure, that's the one moment of so many moments that stood out to me, but so many other things like, oh, I'm forgetting the scene, but like the scene where they're like, oh, go watch the Godfather, or however that that scene played out, but like I have never seen the Godfather, nor will I ever see the Godfather. And stop telling me to go watch the Godfather.

Speaker 3: 27:10

Like that was one of the funny scenes where it was like all such stereotypical truths.

Speaker 4: 27:21

Like okay, yeah, I, even I sit here now. I sat in the movie and like sure, that was the one part of the movie where I actually laughed out loud. But I laughed out loud because of the deep rooted uncomfortableness that I'm dealing with, as it personally relates to people telling me to go watch the Godfather. So it's like sure, in some people's humor, that movie was funny. To me, that movie was like deep and gut wrenching and so invasive and it's like how do you know what I'm feeling? Because like they nailed it and like I'm going to need to sit with my feelings for a lot longer than like 12 hours.

Speaker 1: 28:10

That's super real. Building on that, what you know, many of us, you know, are here in the working in the realm of using business as a force for good and supporting conscious consumers. What does this mean for brands and conscious consumers? Like, what is like? Do we feel like this movie changes anything or is saying, and what are going to be some of the lessons that brands are going to be paying attention to?

Speaker 3: 28:38

Well, I read an article that Gap is already trying to get in touch with Mattel CEO to be like y'all just rebranded. How do we do that, you?

Speaker 2: 28:49

know. If you have to ask another company, you're in trouble. Yeah, what a great question.

Speaker 1: 28:57

And it's interesting too, I'll say so. I, as I mentioned earlier, I've been to a bunch of like interviews and about the directors and the cast afterwards, and something that kept coming up in a lot of them that both Margot Robbie, who was the producer, and Margot saw out Greta Gerwig to direct and write. Something that they both echoed a lot was that they it wasn't like Mattel, was like sure, do whatever you want, you know they're like they had a lot of battles with Mattel, like there were a lot of times where you know they kind of had to like go around and round with Mattel. And one of the interviews and I'll make sure to dig some of these up and put them in the links to the show notes for folks who want to check it out but in one of the interviews the interviewer asked you know, was there one or two like? Was there ever a moment that you thought, oh, this film's not going to get made?

Speaker 1: 29:50

And what both Greta and Margot kind of shared was that like there were so many moments that that's probably why the movie got made, because if they had been just like two or three things that like, they could have focused on that and shut it down for those reasons, but like at every stop, like there was just so many things, so many objections, that at some point it just was like you just pick your battle of the day and you keep trucking.

Speaker 1: 30:21

And so I just thought that that was really interesting because they, you know so much of it too is also like poking fun at Mattel and like calling out the real history that I mean here, here they are. You know, barbie is one of their lead products. If you will, it's a toy for presumably like girls or folks that identify like in that kind of feminine lens, right, and it's run by men and history and for the most part, has been the exception of, I think, like three female CEOs that it doesn't seem like any of them, except for the original founder, was there as a woman CEO for more than like two years. So it really kind of and they touch on that and if, like, they don't shy away from any of the the ugly bits underneath, which I think is part of what makes it work right, because otherwise we probably didn't hear criticizing how like, oh yeah, they're so hypocritical. You know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 31:14

But like I don't think, I don't. You're correct. I don't think the film and I'm going to give Mattel a little bit of maybe some insight I don't think they knew it would be this successful if they didn't address fully and authentically the elephant in the room with Barbie.

Speaker 3: 31:31

And the history like you can't make this production without really emphasizing and bringing words to the criticisms, the actual criticisms and the 30 years of history within the feminist movement, the last 30 years like, and how Barbie has impacted that and all of those arguments. You know you're going to make a Barbie movie and you want to make it authentic and you want to authentically rebrand. You need to address the real issues happening here and I thought that was what the scene where Barbie's visiting the four girls at the middle school and she's like, oh, sasha is about to lay it down. That was the moment for me, when it was like we're going to tell you what's up, you know, and why we don't like you and what you represent to us.

Speaker 3: 32:25

In this moment and I'm not, I'm going to be honest I was excited and surprised that that full dialogue was allowed to be in the film, like when she straight up called her a fascist, like I was. Like they said yes to that. Ok, we're going to address that, you know. But like they, that that was part of the character build, that was part of telling that story, was like really calling them out, and I think it made the strategy stronger because of that, because they were showing like all right, we we see this history, it's here, we're not hiding it away in this movie.

Speaker 2: 33:04

Here's all the argument. You just made me remember us to leave that. One of the scenes after that was Barbie crying on the sidewalk and saying I don't control the real world.

Speaker 3: 33:18

So what it was oh no. So funny.

Speaker 2: 33:24

I love your question. I've been really sitting here thinking about it and I don't think I have a really good answer, other than there's a danger. I think that we could make too much of this. Also, I think it's a ripple in a really, really, really big ocean of like a really good ripple, like really interesting, because it's entering into such mainstream conversation with different language and different recognition, in a very like tongue, in cheek way, and also a way that I think, at the end, one of the things I think they did really masterfully is like not shame or blame necessarily anybody other than, like the Mattel, like men who they, you know, were the butt of the joke the whole time, which was beautiful and very funny, but but, like you know can, the message to Ken is like you need to find yourself and and that's the message to everybody and, like I thought they did that really nicely and I hope that people individually take a message from that.

Speaker 2: 34:29

I mean, I think we all know like Mattel is doing this because there is capitalism deeply involved and and consumers and deeply involved and they're launching like a whole new line of movies that apparently we're going to now continuously be bombarded with. So so, like keeping in mind that there was that reason. But to me that's kind of the interesting thing is that that capitalistic reason that we need to rebrand and figure out how to make ourselves more relevant, which is the case for a lot of companies. If they could think about to your point, celine, that the companies gap is calling, saying like how did you do this? If they could think about that in a way that is more the world we want to be or recognizing the world we are, if they saw more and more companies doing that and realizing it could be successful, that could be actually really like change, something that could be the companies for the greater good scenario.

Speaker 4: 35:25

The one thing that I will add into what you're saying, though, tara, is companies have to do it authentically to, and so that's where, funny, cool, that gap reached out to Mattel, but at the same time, to me, like how Mattel did it is not how gap can do it. And like, to some degree, mattel is laying the groundwork for, hopefully, many groups to follow, but nobody else I mean not every single company in the world should just go out and make a movie about lifestyle of Barbie. You know, like so there's that. I also like don't want to just brush right over this, but like can we pause and talk about the moment when Ken goes up to the worker man in the lobby of the business and says I want a job, and what was the guy's response? Like I'm going to, I'm going to say it wrong if I even try.

Speaker 2: 36:22

He said do you have an MBA, do you have a degree thing? And then the thing that you might be referring to, which is another really memorable moment from my perspective, is he says oh, so you know, things aren't going that well with the patriarchy. Then, because he's saying like oh, I have requirements that I need to meet. What's the deal? Like supposed to be a white dude and you're going to give me whatever I'm supposed to have. And the guy says yeah, yeah, it's still, it's still working. We're just better at hiding it. Right, that's what it was Like, bam, like the truth. I think that the truth was in there. So much like that could be the thing that we want people to take away as a message. Like gap, figure out what your truth is and just tell it or whatever company, because we are always evading the truth, no matter what.

Speaker 2: 37:13

I think as a white population. What if we realize that that is actually killing us?

Speaker 4: 37:24

Yeah, I mean, there's so much from this movie that you can just watch five minutes and then dissect those five minutes, which is maybe why I might say that I'm starting. The more that I dissect the movie, I'm starting to appreciate it more. But again, like, can I call it documentary not a movie? Because, like to me, documentaries are things where I sit down and learn and a movie's where I go to escape.

Speaker 2: 37:56

Yes, you can call it whatever you want to, because that's true, you're right.

Speaker 4: 38:02

I'm the only person. I can call whatever.

Speaker 3: 38:04

I want. There was a lot of thoughtful history and research done to create this script right. They didn't just write it free-nilly. There was a lot of good research and really thoughtful plug-and-plays with antidotes and these witty jokes. So it was really well researched and I think it is a bit of history. It was showing a kind of timeline of history in a way.

Speaker 1: 38:27

And cultural history too. Again, like so many movie references, and not even recent ones, but like from like the 40s and the 50s, like there's just so much, like, just like even taking the content aside just so much beautiful cinema in this too that yeah feels important. It would be really interesting to see. I imagine they'll probably be up for a bunch of awards. It would be interesting to see how they do.

Speaker 4: 38:55

I mean I'll give Greece Lightning the shout-out that I feel like it deserves. I was there when Danny Zuccas came on the screen and I was like, oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:07

But one thing too that I want to kind of build on what you were saying, tara, about like the truth and authenticity piece. I feel like that's so important and I think that that that resonant. I think that that's absolutely true for brands, and I think we're seeing where brands like aren't doing that so well, you know, and that it becomes very apparent and tends to blow up in their face, and I think that's why, like sometimes, brands are scared to do things like this, because it blows up. And we see, when folks do it authentically and through the lens of truth, it's relatable and it like hits people in a real, honest way. I mean, I think, you know, even though there were differences in experience for all four of us, it sounds like it touched us all in meaningful ways for better or worse, right, and so I think that there's definitely something to that.

Speaker 1: 39:59

I want to talk about Ken really quick and how we close with where we leave Ken right Is this, because there's a lot of Ken too that like there's like I feel like we could we could probably do a whole lot of episode just dissecting Ken and all of that and his, his being an accessory, and all of these things, and in the end it's like Ken, you have to go find yourself and who you are and like right and that that, and that that ends up being kind of a universal message.

Speaker 1: 40:30

And I think, tari, you mentioned this already, like you brought that up that like that is kind of the universal message, that, regardless of your, your gender or your like life experience, that like what, you have to take a hard look in the mirror and find who you are, and not as it relates to a person, a job, a place, but for yourself. And I thought that that was really powerful. So my big question, which I feel like isn't really a question because we've already kind of addressed it, but I'm going to say anyway would we say this is a feminist film and what does the film accomplish in that realm?

Speaker 2: 41:04

Oh, such a good question I have. I mean I would lean more yes, in particular because of what I was mentioning before on the amount of exposure, let's say, to think to talking about the patriarchy which has created the need for us thinking about feminism. So it's almost like a root cause analysis in a way, in a much different way, but there and there's certainly like lots of moments where, when Barbie land is taken back and they're like reorganizing that, they do that in a slightly different way. I remember that scene where they're lining up and saying, well, now that Barbie land was back in the Supreme Court and the president was in place, they're saying can I have a position on the Supreme Court? And she says no, no, no, no, like I'm not going that far, you can have like a lower court position.

Speaker 2: 42:00

It was like emulating what's happening for women now for the most part, is like no, you don't get the real powerful position that you just get like the one the ones down.

Speaker 2: 42:09

So in that way, when I think about feminism as being equal rights for all, I think we still have some more thinking to do as a society about what that really means and how we can really be unified, because we tend to your earlier point, ben. We regurgitate like the same thinking and systems that cause the oppression onto the next group, and I think they do talk about that a little bit in the film. I feel like I got some of that messaging. But I think we all need to be thinking about what is this different version of feminism that we think about is that is relevant for today, that really allows everyone to feel like they're in a healthy place for themselves, you know, reflective of themselves, and that we can all like have our own self determination. And I think some of that gets messy when you're thinking about feminism and patriarchy and all the isms, and I hope that we're free from that sometime in my lifetime.

Speaker 4: 43:13

All of it. I have a quick small thing to add, and I think my addition will just be that I do think that this film challenged the traditional gender roles that we see in society and that, to me, in part, makes it a feminist film.

Speaker 3: 43:36

I don't think I saw the film as being designed as a feminist film. I don't think that was its purpose. I think it could be. It's one of those things where it's like it could be categorized. That could be part of its identity, maybe one of its titles, but I don't think the purpose and the sole agenda was to be a feminist film, in part because of what you said, tara. It's almost like feminism. There is so much connotation around that word and there's so much connotation around this film. Right, but if we label it as that one word, are we going to lose any of the subtext and all of the other conversations that the film also brings to light, that are really important too?

Speaker 2: 44:25

Yeah, that's a really important point I hadn't thought of or considered is that it would be really important not to talk about it as that.

Speaker 3: 44:33

Because is that siloed out from specific audience members or from people engaging in the conversation? I think it was. In my understanding, the film was trying to create a dialogue and a space that welcomed everyone in to participate, without a very obvious agenda of there's sparkle, there's pink, it's nostalgia, Ken is dancing, we are all enough. Let's just have a good time without coming in with all of our pre-existing biases or pre-existing political theories or opinions and objectives. Let's just sit and have a conversation and what feels like a potentially safe space, and then that brings everyone into the conversation, Regardless of how you identify gender, sexuality, political party, age, race.

Speaker 4: 45:33

Just let's just sit and have a good time, watch this film and if it sparks conversations within your community, that's great To those of you that have done maybe some research after watching the film, which I don't do research, if you know me, so I'm not in that group. But, as I understand, barbie didn't the marketing team of this film. Barbie didn't advertise the film as how it was going to make people feel, and I'm wondering to some degree like they must have done that on purpose and to the point that Celine was just making. I didn't walk into this film knowing that I was going to sit down and walk out having all of these like hard, strong conversations and feelings, and it makes me think that Barbie did that on purpose and I guess I want to be like why?

Speaker 1: 46:30

Well, and it's interesting too, because I feel like there's the marketing engine that is behind this movie and pushing it out and like ticket sales. And then there is also the like, creative mind and vision of Greta and Margo and those two and the goals of those two entities. I mean, while of course Margo and Greta want to do well at the box office too, I'm sure right Like, let's not. You know, we don't have to like, pretend, but like, and there's potentially some places where they differ, I would imagine. I don't know, I'm speculating, I don't know, no, I would say.

Speaker 3: 47:12

And a lot of times too. If we're going back to conscious consumerism, sometimes a brand is very much driven by what is marketable and they may market themselves in a certain way that isn't always authentic or true to the company itself. And I think, tara, you can share with me. I really resonate with brands when I feel like there is an authentic marketing that's actually revealing the truth and the values of that company. That's what speaks to me.

Speaker 2: 47:46

Thoughts For sure, yeah, and I think in my work with clients, because many of the clients that I work with are very much interested in the marketing industry.

Speaker 2: 47:58

I work with our trying to figure out how to get to that point, not necessarily for a marketing standpoint, but for actually to be able to figure out, like, what are we doing here together, why do we exist Like, and what values do we apply in order to make this all happen. That it's actually really hard to do that, and so the reason why we don't have I have to remind my clients of that all the time to say, like there's a reason why you are in a class, like a small class of organizations that are doing this or leaders that are doing this, is like. This takes a lot of self-reflection and time and thinking, and we're not conditioned to do that, particularly in a business environment. And so that's, I think, the unique piece that may have happened that maybe Greta and Marco like facilitated quite a bit from what you're sharing of that part of the story because I hadn't read about that and it's intriguing me, but facilitated a little bit.

Speaker 2: 48:58

They took them through a process of having to do a little of that, which may not have happened otherwise. But what you were saying, brittany, is so really important, because I don't actually know how this was marketed either. I just knew that it was everywhere. There wasn't that I saw like anything around like here's what you're gonna take away, or like any messaging around like you know, when trailers are leaving and you're in a particular direction. It was just more like it's Barbie and so show up. And so I did. And then I was like what the hell is this?

Speaker 3: 49:32

I mean, I do remember the first trailer that they released, right, and it's the moment where Margot's stepping out of her shoes and she's barefoot and you realize that she's on her heels, right, that was like the first clip of the film that I saw was her stepping out of her heels and everyone was like they did like that was like such a great scene, because here she is really imbibing Barbie, who has only lifted heels. She's stepping out of her shoes and her heels are lifted, so she's wearing heels with lifted feet, like that's Barbie, and everyone was like, oh my gosh, this is great.

Speaker 3: 50:09

Yeah, and that's such an innocuous, like innocent, part of the movie comparatively, but we were all already in like oh my God, they're like showing that she can't put her feet down, but then it becomes like a big part of the film, right, because that flat feet was what set off. Her whole agenda Was like oh my gosh, flat feet means that I'm having an existential crisis and I need to figure this out.

Speaker 2: 50:40

Well, and then that ending scene right before. Well, I won't encase people up, but there is another reference to it at the end. This whole podcast is a spoiler.

Speaker 4: 50:52

Okay, you've made it this far and they've never seen the movie.

Speaker 2: 50:55

Yeah, they're screwed. Yeah, when she gets out of the car to go into what I think they are trying to make, cause I thought it was like a job interview, but she's going and she has her pink Birkenstocks on, like the most flat foot and shoe you could have, and there's like another reference right from the beginning of the film to the end, of like the feet and the symbolism of the feet, and then she goes on and it's a gynecology appointment and that's so funny, it's just so funny.

Speaker 4: 51:20

But like what a way to again like end the film because it was like I even though the entire movie was hard, gut wrenching, challenging, harder than a therapist appointment Like I ended the movie laughing. That to me was like probably the funniest scene of the whole movie. Like funny, funny, like I'm actually laughing because I think it's funny, not laughing cause I'm awkward. And that to me was like okay, the movie was good, it was worth it. And like to Michael thing, like yes, I will absolutely recommend this movie to everybody that I know, whether you agree with my values or you don't agree with my values, because watching this movie is going to challenge the way that you think. And I would love to have a conversation with you after you've seen it and you have like had these deep thoughts.

Speaker 4: 52:20

But like the same way that I walked into this movie having really no idea what I'm walking into, I kind of did think I was walking into like Sparkles and dance parties the whole time and I was like wait, why am I going and watching this movie? I'm not a girly girl. I don't like Sparkles. I think I'm going to refrain from telling people what they're walking into until they have seen it and then like then let's debrief the whole thing. So what about everybody else? Are we recommending this to friends or are we like, no, stay far away 100% agree with you at recommending to everybody, I know.

Speaker 2: 52:59

But I really like the wisdom of what you just shared of like just letting it be like you should see it.

Speaker 2: 53:06

I'm making my sister come with me because I can control her a little bit. She's my younger sister. Over the weekend because we happen to be getting together with our kids and I'm making my two nephews come, and so I'm going to see it a third time and my kids are too this weekend, because I actually am afraid she will not see it if I don't go with her, and my nephews won't either, and I want to have that conversation afterwards just to like see what's particularly emerging for my nephews. But you're so right to just let it be like it's super fun and cool, like we should all go see it together and then see what emerges afterwards, rather than plugging anything in to kind of make it a bummer, like anything I would say would kind of make it a bummer before they go in. And that's not at all what the feeling of the movie is or was for me, and so let them have their own experience of whatever it is which could vary a lot.

Speaker 1: 54:03

I would highly recommend too. I do have to say one thing that I absolutely love, that like literally made me laugh out loud, was speaking of the shoes moment, where there's a moment where she's like flat footed Barbie and she's like God, if I had flat feet I would never wear heels, and I like I just love that so much because even like pre-transition, like I could like heels were I could not. I just could not.

Speaker 2: 54:27

The amount of little one liners like that one that you just pointed to. I don't know if anyone has thought of this you probably have but I was like I want a transcript of the whole movie. I want to go through and highlight the things and then like put it in my signature line on my email this Barbie Ken, it's so fun.

Speaker 1: 54:51

If you find a transcript, let me know. I went hunting for one and couldn't find it. Okay, so I wasn't the only one that had it, yet I didn't hunt yet, though.

Speaker 2: 54:56

So that's your one step ahead of me, but if I find it, I'll let you know. You do the same please.

Speaker 1: 55:01

Oh my gosh. Thank you all so much. Any final thoughts?

Speaker 3: 55:04

We are all Ken enough we are all Ken enough.

Speaker 4: 55:10

We are all Ken enough.

Speaker 2: 55:11

That's a wonderful final thought. I just want to say I appreciate that opportunity to have the conversation and the diversity of thought that you mentioned, brittany, earlier, of experience and just like having a chance to talk about that in a time that was set aside, because I think about it like that doesn't happen, even with my kids. We've both seen it all, seen it twice, and we haven't really spent a conversation talking about it, and so it's motivating me to like think about how that has to be a part of the experience.

Speaker 1: 55:46

And there is so much more in this movie to discuss. We chatted with Tara and Celine for an hour and we all agreed we easily could have continued for another hour. I know even after our conversation I had so many more thoughts about this movie, the symbolism in it and questions as well, so I did some more research and wrote a blog post about it. If you're as interested in Barbie and this moment in time as we are, I highly recommend you check it out. Also, we've had both Celine and Tara on responsibly different before. Celine was on with us sharing about 1% for the planet and Tara was on explaining the difference between B-Corps certification and Benefit Corporations. We'll link to both of those episodes for you in the show notes, along with a link to the blog post, which is also where you'll be able to find links to some of the articles referenced in this episode.

Speaker 1: 56:44

Thank you so much for tuning in. If you're enjoying this content, leave us a review on Apple Podcast or drop us a note through the website and share with us your thoughts. We would love to hear them, especially about Barbie. What stood out for you in the film? Did you like it? What else do you wish we had talked about here that maybe we didn't touch on. Thank you again for tuning in. We appreciate you. Till next time, be responsibly different.

Speaker 3: 57:40

I just feel it in my heart Drive, drive, oh, drive, drive. I gotta do that. Drive, drive, oh, drive, drive.