Responsibly Different™
We started this channel in 2020 exploring how to best use business as a force for good utilizing our B Corp certification journey as our lens. Now, in 2025, we’re taking what we’ve learned and applying it more deeply to our industry of strategic media planning and buying. Tune in to our new Fireside series which are candid conversations amongst our team about the latest news in the industry, explore our upcoming Impact Chats episodes to uncover the power and role of media in shaping culture and examining the social and environmental impacts of our industry.
Responsibly Different™
Too Big to Scroll Past: The Smart Play of OOH
Chris Marine and David Gogel of Campfire Consulting sit down with Gerrit Hooker of Outfront Media to talk all things out-of-home — from the beauty of old-school painted billboards to today’s data-fueled digital canvases that basically follow you (but, like, in a cool way).
Gerrit grew up in the OOH world — literally — and brings decades of insight into how this classic medium has quietly become one of the smartest plays in modern media. While everyone else is yelling at you through your phone, billboards are just... there. Big. Confident. Unbothered. And surprisingly effective.
We get into how brands are using tech like geofencing and mobile ID mapping to make OOH smarter (and creepier... but again, cool creepy), plus how national campaigns are getting hyper-local, and why more consumer brands are using billboards to flex for retail buyers in a B2B world.
If you think OOH advertising is just highway billboards, this convo might just rewire your media brain.
Welcome to Fireside, a responsibly different podcast where we spark candid conversations about media investments and the strategies shaping the way we connect.
Speaker 3:Hey guys, I'm excited to be chatting with you both today. Just so everyone knows, we are chatting with Garrett Hooker from Outfront. He's not only one of the people that out of home advertising is literally this dude's life, but he's a really good longtime friend of mine. So, garrett, awesome to have you on Fireside and, if you want, just like introduce, give people a little bit about your background. This is quite literally your life it literally was from birth.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thanks for having me, chris. Um, yeah, like you mentioned, it's kind of been my life forever. I was, I was born into this industry. My dad sold for negley outdoor um for like 40 years, so I spent my whole life in it and then, naturally naturally when I finished school, was gravitated towards the industry. So I started in college working in operations where I hung signs down to, I built signs to now where I'm selling them for out front media. So, yeah, it's been a whirlwind, but it's been a fun one and it's like an industry I know I believe in. So it's, it's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 3:Cool and fun fact. Haven't you been on a few billboards yourself as like a kid?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. So when I was a kid they used to. It was really cool because back then, like I started being around it when I was like you know, like Chris said three or four, and back then they used to hand paint everything. So they needed a model for a Campbell's suit billboard a kid to be like under five years old and my dad said, oh, my son will do it. So, yeah, they hand painted me on Campbell's suit boards throughout the Minneapolis market and they still have a picture hung up at their house. My folks do. So it's pretty neat back then because that's the beauty of it. It was art. You know that you people got to see and these was art. You know that you people got to see. It was. And these guys, they all stayed around to work in Opsby once they started stop painting the boards. But yeah, like watching those guys go to work was one of the neatest things you could do. So it was pretty neat.
Speaker 3:It is neat. We were recently in New York, david and I, and there was this building and it was a couple stories of the side of the brick building was still a hand-painted ad that goes up and I was like man to your point. It is cool when out-of-home is activated on that level.
Speaker 4:I wish that there was more of that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:There's huge production costs and all that, but it's going back to its roots, where it's so neat and so unique that, yeah, it's a lot of work, but man, it just does look. Really digital fatigue is happening for folks and that endless scroll whether you're scrolling news articles online or you're scrolling that social feed it's nice when there's something out in the physical world to engage with. What are some of the changes that you've seen over the years? I mean, I specifically I'm relatively new to the out of home, like within the last decade I mostly did a lot of broadcast and digital. But even in the last 10 years I know GeoPath has come such a long way and how it's measured and would you want to talk about some of the evolutions?
Speaker 4:Yeah, no for sure and, like you know, in the last 10 years, without a home, it's changed like drastically Right. So when I first came in professionally, it was like 2011. And yeah, there was digital billboards. They were the new hot thing, but you know it was the. It's the old school way. People buy boards. You'd get in a car with them, you drive the market and it would just be like I like that one, I don't like that one, and that's how you created a campaign and it would just be like I like that one, I don't like that one, and that's how you created a campaign.
Speaker 4:Now, with the technology of everything where it's at, we've evolved so much in less than 10 years, for instance, when it comes to, like you mentioned, for audiences for Geopath or my company itself, how we build campaigns, we find assets. So we have partnered with so many data management platforms, with geofencing technology and things like that which ours is called SmartScout. Every company now has one where we're collecting information for audiences of billboards. You know people always think about that for television or anything like that. But you know, if you're working with a fast food restaurant and you want to find the boards that have the highest indexing of fast food people. We can do that for you Because we realize being, because technically we're a real estate company I mean, we're in advertising but we have so many assets that we can collect so much information of people passing by, so, like that's a huge one when it comes to selling on an audience, rather than like general market, like that's been new for a few years and it's people love it because you're trying to like that's, that's what you guys do, you want to find a certain type of person for a campaign.
Speaker 4:So we figured out well, we got all these assets, let's utilize them right, um, and with that technology as well, with the geofencing and all that like this is another evolution where now we can retarget audiences with billboards. So when someone's driving by, they see even on a digital ad, like, say, your client's ad pops up, they're in the view shed, like geofence view shed, so they're exposed to it. Then we have their mobile ID information from that and we can reserve them like a mobile ad or an ott ctv ad. We have that ability now so that it's just gone so far from just saying, like, slap my static ad on that board and are these half dozen boards? Um, and that's just kind of like just the audience and retargeting element of it. There's a lot more that we could dive into I mean that's.
Speaker 3:I mean that plays a huge role. People ask all the time like, how does this integrate with our digital and social strategy? Because everyone seems to think they need to point there first. But if you really do diligence and think about who are the people you're trying to reach first and marry the message to that audience, and you take out this perceived notion that, well, social digital has to be where the bulk of the budget goes, because that's where everyone is To your point, it's like there are really creative ways to maximize efficiency and effectiveness. And, speaking of efficiency, that's one of the reasons like when you do get down to the numbers why I'm always super bullish on out of home, when we're in a market where we're trying to reach a particular audience, because you can most out-of-home placements to any digital and social and when it does come to, if reach is a part of one of those measurements you're looking at, if you want to compare CPMs, it's usually way more efficient.
Speaker 4:Out-of-home tends to usually be, if not the lowest, one of the lowest CPMs when it comes to just and the beauty of it too, and going into the social side of it as well. Like a lot of people are starting to feel the online like it's. It's becoming more invasive, sometimes with ads and like the dwell time on them is so low and people are just kind of getting like just really fatigued. Sometimes I've noticed, and that's where without a home, with boards, they're landmarks, right it not? Like you expect. Like if you drive the same route every day, you see that same board. It's a landmark, you know it's coming, you know it's there.
Speaker 4:Meanwhile, when you're scrolling through digital or social or anything online, like sometimes it can be invasive, um, but like the big thing too, which is why, like the CPMs are so great and our impressions are so high is the dwell times are very long for out of home, compared to, you know, with all the alternative media that's out there now. Like when I started it was for media, it was print TV, radio out of home. That was it, and so you know, the nice thing with out of home is there really hasn't been that alternative media Like you could identify alternative media with any of the traditional medias outside of really out of home and that's kind of been a very that's why out of home is kind of in a strong place is. You know, people have go different routes now for music or news, talk or whatever you guys listen to, similar with television, things like that.
Speaker 4:But People are still moving. Mobility is thankfully back up to what it was pre-pandemic. I mean, we had a few tough years there, but you know, people are still out and about and it's just continues to go up, with less and less people, you know, working hybrid or remote, like remotely, which is beneficial for me like there's been a lot of reflection lately that we're at a five-year milestone from when the pandemic started and I know out of home, among other categories, got hit really hard.
Speaker 3:Are you seeing that people are investing into out of home? I know like people's lives seem to be going back, getting back out on the road similarly but are brands and agencies investing the way they were pre-pandemic yet? Because I know it seems like when I'm looking at certain markets that we're buying, it's like I'm shocked at some of the rates and from conversations I've had with folks they're like well, we're just not back to seeing sell rates the way we were pre-pandemic, even though all the data shows it's like you're still getting just as many eyeballs and traffic going by these things as before now.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and so it was literally just a little bit of a dwell like a lull 2020 for out of home. As you can imagine, when we're all locked up at home not knowing what's going on, no one's on the roads. I'll never forget it was May 2020 and I drove to the cabin. It was my first time leaving the house and I thought it was a apocalypse, like I was the only car on the road driving three hours to Northern Minnesota. It was weird. So, yeah, naturally, 2020 was a tough year, and same with 21, 22.
Speaker 4:So, but right around mid 2022, you started to see the comeback and now we're kind of right back to where we were in 2019 numbers, not only when it comes to, like you mentioned, impression counts, things like that, like our boards are back to, like the most recent audit, pretty much right where they were in 2019. But similarly when it comes to just sales and growth. You know we've seen growth since 2022. After a couple of years, that kind of sunk a little bit. So, yes, long story short, it is kind of back to 2019 in the out-of-home world because you know, there always was hybrid work. There always was hybrid work, there always was remote work and it's something like 5% are remote now and 30 some percent are some sort of hybrid situation which you know it works for us.
Speaker 1:I'm just I'm curious. You know, obviously this is a, this is a media podcast generally, but as a media agency, we obviously collaborate every single day with creative agencies and one of the things that's been so fun to hear from creative agencies, especially recently, is just how they're thinking about out of home, and I'm sure we can get into some of the tactics and I'm curious to hear your perspective there. But, just like, generally we've talked about the fatigue of online advertising and why we're seeing some shifts there, but just also, it feels like creative agencies are excited about the storytelling that can happen with out of home and how it can connect to a larger campaign. Is that something that you're experiencing as well, because we're seeing this every single day with the creative agencies that we partner with.
Speaker 4:Yeah, for sure. I mean, the creative agencies that I've been working with are really into a lot of the new things that we have when it comes to artwork and creative. I'm speaking specifically about digital out of home, because now we do have new advancements where there's interactive media, there's spatial 3D stuff If you're talking like mainly like New York and things like that, maybe Vegas, where you can get more elaborate, more crazy with what you want to do, you know you can have a three dimensional ad like the coolest thing that we've done that I've seen recently is remember the game Space Invaders, like way back in the day. So they did a big campaign in New York and it was geospatial augmented reality so you could play the game on your phone using the real New York skyline and the Space Invaders would be flying through. And that's just an example of when it comes to creative, where it's going right now is really really exciting and that's the top end.
Speaker 4:Craziest out-of-the-box stuff that's going right now is really really exciting and that's like the top end, like craziest out of the box stuff that's happening right now. Um, but you know, it just is an example of, like you know, 10, 10 years down the road, like a spatial 3d digital billboard, like that's. That could be there, you know, and that's that's exciting for being in this industry, because talk about eye popping. It's like there's a whale coming off the screen at you. Like we can start to do that now. It's already here and so it's just a matter of getting that to be allowed everywhere.
Speaker 1:So it's hopefully yeah, yeah, no, totally. So I think that this idea of the intersection of out of home and experiential is really interesting, and I think there's, there's, there's, there's tons of cool ways in which that, to your point, that's already coming to life. I also think, just even getting more analog with it, it feels like, um, when you, when you're forced to try in like in a static way, to still down brand messaging that will resonate with kind of campaign objectives, it almost feels like that box, metaphorically, really opens up the creativity of a lot of our partners. And then they're thinking about okay, cool, now how am I telling a story that connects to this larger campaign and how are we using this to, kind of from top of the funnel, awareness in a way that really seeds what we're trying to do later on in this journey? And so I think for us as a media agency, it's been fun to bat the ball back and forth with creative agencies talking about how to create this connected consumer journey, leveraging out of home especially.
Speaker 1:We work with a lot of regional challenger brands that are trying to scale nationally, and so a lot of times what that means is they're entering into new markets and they're trying to figure out. How do we really launch a brand in a new market? And almost always the question becomes what is the role that out-of-home plays in launching into a new market? Is that something you could? Is that something you were hearing too? And do you have any thoughts around kind of strategies and tips when somebody is launching into a new market and how they could leverage out of home?
Speaker 4:going into a new market. It all goes back to like without a home, you can literally build out from there outwards, right, because out of home you're getting so much exposure you can literally read, like I mentioned before, retarget all these types of things, and so that's what I've been seeing is a lot of like I, like I've done a campaign where they start with an auto home, just blitz, right, they hammer, like it was in Atlanta. They did a full just hammered Atlanta with an out-of-home blitz before expanding to other media, into the media mix of other media types, and they found great results because of just the organic impressions that out-of-home does provide. And that's kind of. I think that answers the question, because that's what I've been seeing in numerous examples of they start with out of home and then they go outward from there.
Speaker 3:And I think some of the best campaigns that I've seen, too, using out of home is when they're localizing messaging. If it's a national campaign, to your point. It's like as you're selecting markets, if you can localize that messaging to those placements, that messaging to those placements. We did a really neat campaign out in Los Angeles and it was super hyper-focused on Los Angeles, even though in other markets, while some of the branding was still there, it was obvious it was from the same company, same brand. It was like messaging was tailored and letting known. That's like you don't need to do one swift message across your full out-of-home footprint.
Speaker 4:I think it's important, and even with dynamic triggers and things like that too, with digital out of home, you know like if it's San Diego, you know making people feel like, oh, shoot, this campaign's really. You know about my market. When it's like, oh, it's actually in 20 markets, but you know, with that capability it's really neat and really customizable, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're seeing more and more also that brands want to think about the strategy to get in front of the consumer when, like depending on like what moment they are in their day, whether or not they're commuting to work, whether or not they're shopping do. But we're seeing out of home as like a retailer B2B strategy too, like really really demonstrating to the market that like hey, we're here, we're investing in your market, when we're looking to open up accounts in your market and seeing that that's something that's really really driving our out of home kind of conversation as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, supporting that retailer piece is huge and B2B it's. Just that's working with a lot of food and bed brands. It comes down to, you can have the most targeted digital campaign and know that you're reaching out to people, but at the end of the day, if people aren't seeing it because you're so targeted in it, it's hard to feel the love when you're trying to build relationships.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, we've definitely seen to that point it be helpful in some B2B plays because there's a balancing act. Yes, we want to reach customers and consumers. We also need to, you know, make sure that your suppliers and distributors and retailers are also seeing the work that's going into moving product.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, and with B2B too, like I'm in Minnesota. So, trust me, everyone's reaching out to Target here. It's crazy, so it's a perfect example.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was just at Expo and it was like it was. You see many companies around where they were doing a lot of bus and transit lines and things like that, but there were also some billboards just covering around the convention center, just all the businesses that were going to be in the expo. I was like smart, it's smart, Everyone is walking in from a few blocks away, so everyone's walking in and you're seeing these things.
Speaker 4:We run a lot of those campaigns too, because, chris, I remember when you came, you got to see the Skyway system for the first time in Minneapolis. So we do the Skyway advertising and so, yeah, any convention, we just cover soffits and elevators and there's live boards in there. It's basically a foot traffic subway system, david, if you haven't been on it. But yeah, it's a transit media format, but just for people walking to the convention center or walking in an athletic game. So yeah, you can do a lot of cool things with all the options we got out there and that's it.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of people when they think out of home, they immediately think billboards, tactic, billboard, right, it's a lot deeper than that. Like there's, you can do a lot more.
Speaker 4:There's a lot of other plays there. A thousand percent, yeah, with transit, with digital, yeah, there's just, there's so much you can do and it's as someone who sells it. It gets a little crazy because you're trying to remember like, oh shoot, yeah, we can, we could definitely reach via this product that you know I haven't sold. Maybe in a year or two and I totally forgot we had it. So you gotta, you gotta try to stay sharp when you're in my role.
Speaker 3:And that's why we depend on experts like you as partners, Garrett, because it's a mind meld for everyone. But I guess, to close this out, garrett, what are you most excited? You already shared some of where Out of Home could be in the next 10 years with 3D, further augmented reality. What are you most excited about personally and what, uh, and what people might see expect, or just personally, as your career in advertising. What's getting you inspired these days to close this out?
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, I mean for for my, what's getting me excited about the future? Like, like I mentioned, like this is some out of homes here to stay. It's not going anywhere, it's a, it's a product that I I love and I firmly believe in and it's just one of those things where I feel like it's in its most secure place I've ever had it in. You know, when I started with TV radio, you didn't know what media format was going to be around. And now you know Auto Home's kind of shown its durability and it makes you feel good about, you know, being in a media format where it is durable.
Speaker 4:You know being in a media format where it is durable and then for a guy like me who enjoys technological advances and things like that, to see the industry moving that way while also keeping our core of where we came from is something that, like I, can get behind. And you know, like you said, it's easy to sell a non-invasive media like out of home. It's one of those things where people kind of trust it. They always kind of have. There's never been any reason not to. So I'm just excited to see how it continues to evolve, because 10 years ago it hadn't evolved much, and now it's evolved a lot and I think that there's just some great things down the pipeline for the industry, so can't wait to be there for it.
Speaker 3:I love it. Well, garrett, you know that I'm a Disney freak, so I think it's a good way to close us out with that as inspiration, and it's going to be a great, big, beautiful tomorrow.
Speaker 1:So, thank you, Garrett.
Speaker 3:Thank you guys. If you know, you know friends, if you know, you know All right.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 4:Thanks, Garrett.
Speaker 2:Cheers y'all. You've been listening to Fireside from Campfire Consulting. Join us again by the fire as we explore more ways to connect through media. Till next time, be responsibly different, Thank you.