Responsibly Different™
We started this channel in 2020 exploring how to best use business as a force for good utilizing our B Corp certification journey as our lens. Now, in 2025, we’re taking what we’ve learned and applying it more deeply to our industry of strategic media planning and buying. Tune in to our new Fireside series which are candid conversations amongst our team about the latest news in the industry, explore our upcoming Impact Chats episodes to uncover the power and role of media in shaping culture and examining the social and environmental impacts of our industry.
Responsibly Different™
The Human Touch in AI: Why Machine Learning Needs Human Strategy
The future of media isn’t human vs. machine—it’s human with machine. In this episode, Chris Marine and David Gogel from Campfire Consulting sit down with Adriana Richards and Evan Bogris from AI Digital to explore how AI can supercharge media strategy without replacing the human insight that makes campaigns resonate.
We unpack how their DSP-agnostic tech helps brands plan smarter across platforms like Amazon, TikTok, and Trade Desk—while keeping the emotional intelligence, storytelling, and cultural awareness that AI simply can’t replicate in media strategy, planning and media buying.
Curious how to find the right balance in your own media strategy? Reach out to Campfire Consulting and let’s talk about building media that performs and connects.
Welcome to Fireside, a responsibly different podcast where we spark candid conversations about media investments and the strategies shaping the way we connect.
Speaker 2:Hello campers, excited to be with you today. I'm Chris Marine from Campfire Consulting, joined with my colleague, david Gogel, and super excited to have our friends Adriana Richards and Evan Bogres from AI Digital. This is something that we're excited to chat about, because you can't possibly get through any conversation without talking about AI, and this conversation, you can bet, is pretty much going to be all about AI, and this conversation, you can bet, is pretty much going to be all about AI. So, evan, Adriana, thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, pleasure to be here. Thank you for having us, Chris and David.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think for everyone out there, give us a little bit about what AI digital is, what challenges you're solving for with your really impressive approach to leveraging AI.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I can kind of take it away and, evan, you can, you know, add color as you see fit.
Speaker 4:But so with AI, digital, we we kind of noticed this, this issue in digital media and programmatic specifically, that the market was becoming more and more fragmented.
Speaker 4:Right, it's really difficult for the average brand or agency or advertiser to be able to have access to all of the texts that they needed, all the platforms that they needed, and be able to run and optimize across those in a really smart and efficient way.
Speaker 4:So we decided to not only kind of create a place where you can access everything that you would need Amazon, tiktok, linkedin, trade Desk, dv360, you name it, we can access it but we've also using AI in a really smart way to kind of bounce off of the human intelligence that we have working here, be able to essentially create tech that sits on top of all of these really amazing platforms and allows a marketer to essentially run, optimize, plan in a way that's really beneficial to the end user, because it can become, as you probably have experienced in the past, really overwhelming when you're trying to media plan or decide where budgets should go where should we allocate this, what type of audiences should we leverage, it becomes more and more cumbersome as the years go on to be able to efficiently and in a strategic way, be able to plan those campaigns. So we built, you know, a platform that kind of helps to alleviate some of those struggles and inefficiencies.
Speaker 2:What are kind of some of the biggest misconceptions about AI in media buying today, and I think you just kind of touched on that there's a lot of complexities when putting together a plan that then translates into execution of a buy and I'm interested your perspective here, especially coming off some of the news over the last few days major Holtco media, holtco CEO saying that in five years there will be no humans that will be part of the media buying process. So that just has had me thinking about you all a lot, since you're on the forefront of leveraging AI. Are there misconceptions that you're hearing? Is that itself a misconception in your opinion?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say. I don't necessarily subscribe to that thought. I think that humans are always going to be such an integral part of campaign planning and, you know, deciding where and when you should spend your money. Ai is incredible in the sense that it can, you know, help us humans to become faster, smarter, stronger, but it can't replace the human brain. I'm sure, you know, all of us have some sort of experience, maybe typing something into chat, gbt and it comes out with, you know, a lot of the times. The outputs are amazing, but sometimes you just need a human touch there.
Speaker 4:So I don't necessarily subscribe to the fact that you know the idea that humans will be replaced right. Replaced right. We've seen, you know, platforms like Google and their Performance Max. Right, they can allocate budgets automatically using AI across search, youtube, display, you name it, and there have been some bumps in the road with, you know, kind of letting go of the reins entirely over to AI, to the robots, right? We at AI Digital even though it's in our name right? We're firm believers that human intelligence is always going to work in tandem, in partnership with AI. That also kind of brings up the ethics of it all as well. Right, we don't want our team to be replaced by any means.
Speaker 2:I mean and that's something that do you? Do you have like an ethics policy that you're either working on, working towards or is already part of the, the cloth, the fabric of AI digital? Because I know us personally we we created AI code of ethics back in 2019. But it was before. Ai is what it is today and that's one of our core areas. That we're working on in 2025 is A. We need to update that with all the advancements that have been there and how we're using it so much more. But is that something that you all either have or are working on?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's something that has been in discussion a good bit. We don't have, uh, an always on point of view on it, because it it evolves, right, um, as more and more things come about. Right, you have to kind of be able to adjust and pivot. But I think at the core of it, right, um, the ethics here we want to a, like I said, make sure that we're not, you know, replacing humans with computers. B, we want to keep a part of the human strategy and the human storytelling as well. You never want to lose authenticity, especially with things like, you know, creative and over-optimization, and we always want to bring it back to. Let me say this the value of human intuition is something that can't be understated in a data-rich world. Right, I think all these tools that we have at our disposal are incredibly powerful, but, like I mentioned before, you really can't replace the intuition that a human being has yeah yeah, I could just jump in, oh sorry, david
Speaker 5:no, you go ahead jump in.
Speaker 3:I think, um, you know that whole the hold codes and these enterprise ceos are talking about. In five years there's going to be no more media buyers, it's all going to be, you know, run through ai. I think that's the dream of a big tech ceo in capitalist society. Hey, where can we save on cost? Provide that back to the shareholders In our world?
Speaker 3:At AI Digital, we're more focused on running the best possible campaigns and utilizing human intelligence in tandem with artificial intelligence to be able to have that finger on the pulse identity of a human who understands meta culture and what's going on in society, you know, in an ever changing landscape, and utilizing AI to help leverage just the meta data that is stored there to be able to make those decisions. I think when human intelligence works with artificial intelligence, that's when campaigns are at their best, because you have, as Adriana alluded to that, personalization, whilst being able to sift through tons and tons of data in seconds very, very efficiently. So I think the perfect world and what we're building at AI Digital is this beautiful relationship between human intelligence, artificial intelligence, and the sum will do much more than the individual parts alone.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's well said, I think, not to oversimplify it, but where we've been constantly trying to have dialogue, with our optimization happening with machine learning and leveraging AI.
Speaker 5:But that why and the purpose of the campaign and how that evolves, is very much where we feel the human element, that human in the loop plays in. Have you guys talked about this as you think about the evolution of not only your platform but the service side of your business? So this is you think about the evolution of not only your platform but the service side of your business. I mean, how are you, how does that shift for you all? Because for us it feels very, very fluid, depending on the industry, the type of campaign, how much we feel like our role should vary, be like squarely in the purpose side of the campaign or how much of that is in, like that, like how campaign structure, if that, if that tracks for you all like how campaign structure, if that tracks for you all, yeah, so, if I'm understanding the question correctly, in terms of account management, campaign management, how much is AI being leveraged versus how much of the human touch and the white glove service and kind of what aspects of the campaign management are they focused on?
Speaker 3:So I think the beauty of AI and we have it built in our platforms at AI Digital is quick answers, quick responses, being able to get specific data, specific knowledge points, very, very quickly.
Speaker 3:So we do. We have chatbots that are basically infused in the campaign dashboard where a media, buyer, planner, director, whoever can go in and instantly say, hey, what optimizations were made in the last three days, what was our campaign spend in this specific audience segment over the last seven days, and instantly get that answer. And that, to me, is the beauty of AI, right? Instead of having to send an email, make a phone call to your campaign manager, you can get those answers instantly. However, those answers are only surface level. Right, you get a specific metric, but to where you're I think you're going with the question is okay why did we do that? Why was that decision made? Why was that optimization made? And that's where sometimes, artificial intelligence can miss the mark because it's just going to give you some hey.
Speaker 3:We looked at the data. We optimized because this was performing better, whereas a human can actually say hey, based on cultural events, world news. You know what's going on with tariffs. You know. We decided that with this shift in the economy, this would be the best audience segment to actually utilize. And then the artificial intelligence, the AI, showed through that optimization that that actually worked and gave you that answer.
Speaker 3:So that's where I think again the marriage of human intelligence with artificial intelligence put together to understand not just what's working in advertising but what's going on in the human mind. Right? What's going on in my fellow peer who's in my age group's mind? What are they looking to buy today? What are the trends, what are the things that are going on in recent news that are going to influence those emotions and behaviors that AI at this point I can't speak for five years from now, but at this point can't get into our shoes the way a fellow human can. And that's where campaign management, planning, reviewing, making strategy decisions are still very, very much in the heart and soul of a human, with the aid of AI to just help again scour through thousands of data points to help give you validity to that decision.
Speaker 2:I think so, the human element brings that piece of it. How is AI? I believe you guys have, or you guys have called it your what your Elevate platform? That's about predictive planning and intuitive insights. So how is that? So you kind of talked about the human element and what people will bring to the work. What is that Elevate platform and how does that help with the predictive planning and what is that predictive planning actually showing your clients?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so the Elevate Planner was essentially created to help plan across multiple DSPs. Right, if you have a full in-house trading desk at your agency, you're a hold co, right? I wouldn't say it's easy to do that, but you have the means in which to do that. What the Elevate Planning tool does is it allows you to take in all your campaign inputs, like in any forecasting tool that you would find in a singular DSP, and run those numbers across multiple. So the way I like to think about, you know, ai in this sense is obviously the AI is allowing us to look at all of the historical data that we have in all of these platforms and make recommendations based off that sense.
Speaker 4:But the way that we like to use the planning tool right, it's a starting point. When we're thinking about launching a new campaign, we use the planning tool, but then that goes to our planners and our strategists. We review it, we take a look at, you know, like Evan mentioned, the larger. You know, the world at large as it currently stands, and we might tweak or change that plan based on the individual advertiser brand campaigns, because historical data is incredibly valuable, but it doesn't always tell the entire story. So you have to be able to have that strategic mindset, to be able to sit down, look at the output from the AI tool and be able to critical thinking decisions based off of what is happening currently and in the now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think AI digital would do a really good job of just because our AI and our tech side of things and our products are growing, so is our team right. And so to the point that you mentioned with the planning aspect of Elevate, yes, we're looking at historic data that's specific to an industry, vertical, similar KPIs, to basically say, hey, based on historic performance, this is what we can expect, but we're still going to have a dedicated strategist, a planner, going through this, ironing things out, making sure they're seeing things through the lens of your service or product that you're selling and making sure that we're making specific tweaks, because not every campaign is going to be the same. Right, it's very directional, but there's still kind of what I mentioned, that heart and soul that goes into building a really, really worthwhile, fundamentally sound campaign. And that's why, just as much as our AI tools are growing, so is our headcount and strategy and planning and optimization in our optimization team to make sure that we're supporting the AI and, in a similar sense, the AI is supporting our headcount.
Speaker 3:I really think it's a beautiful relationship when you can actually marry the two and have them work harmoniously together, rather than what a lot of companies are doing. They're either going all in on AI or they're fearful of going all in on AI, and they're kind of in this like analysis paralysis stage, where I think you need to slowly bring it together and then for your specific organization not every organization is gonna be the same Some organizations might lend more towards AI, some organizations might lend more towards that human element, but there's gotta be a balance, especially in the year 2025. And if you're not getting on the train now, you're going to be way behind in 2030. So that's what I think a lot of marketing firms, brands, agencies what have you need to start thinking about is where are we going to be in five years and how do we start that process now if we haven't already?
Speaker 5:And I feel like what you're saying there makes a lot of sense, especially as we're seeing it as we work with our clients.
Speaker 5:It feels like there are going to be some elements of a campaign where we're going to want to leverage AI and machine learning.
Speaker 5:More Specifically, I would want my campaign to be autonomously optimizing around media metrics like a ROAS right or a click-through right, and then there are things like brand sentiment right and some of the other you know KPIs of a campaign that are less about hey, we can cross kind of platform optimize autonomously here and we're never going to beat what an AI can do to optimize for a ROAS right.
Speaker 5:But how does ROAS factor into the larger conversation and all these other factors? And to me it sounds like what you're saying is you've built a great platform to support planning and buying and that more and more, the parts of planning and buying that should happen autonomously will continue to happen. But what that does is it frees up people to think strategically about where things are going and lay and ladder this up, so that way, you know, the decision makers at the top of an organization have a more holistic story to tell and it isn't just hey, here's how the AI optimized media metrics. It's, it's here how we, here's how we leverage that to tell a more compelling story and and move the needle based on our targets. Is that that feels like that's what you're saying?
Speaker 3:Very much so, and so to kind of put it into like a live world, you know, example if we're working with, let's say, a direct to consumer mattress company, right, and it's basically like hey, we want our ROAS to be two to three times. That's a pretty simple campaign to run, no-transcript Gaza Strip or something like that. That's a campaign where you need hands on keyboard, people who are listening, heart and soul of what's going on in world events and that freed up time that AI is spending here with the direct to consumer mattress company can be used to understand hey, we need to pivot really quickly on our targeting because this just happened at midnight tonight and having the humans that can do that where AI is just not going to be able to pick up on that, at least in today's world.
Speaker 2:And I think you might have answered one of my other questions that I had, because I noticed that you all have written about the AI blind spot in particular, and I think you just addressed that. But is that what you all are considering like the AI blind spot that more brands should be paying attention to? That? It's like you can't be so reliant on AI.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's part of it. I think there's a there's, there's a big story there and this might go a little deep, I don't know how much time we have, but I liken it. I always look at it like what I think is ruining marketing and advertising today are all these big tech companies, the Googles, the trade desks, right, the Microsoft getting involved with Xander, etc. This is what we need to do to monopolize and capitalize, right. But what gets lost in that world is true marketing and true understanding of how consumers just digest advertising. The biggest thing I always look at is CTV, ott, especially in the last three, four years. Agencies, brands, have been scrambling about CTV and OTT and we have to make sure we're investing in. Cpms are expensive, but we don't mind, we'll spend it whatever it costs to be on Netflix or Hulu and, at the end of the day, when you're watching a 30-second CTV ad, it's no different than when you're watching basic cable. A 30-second TV ad, right.
Speaker 3:Our memory, our attention spans, the human consumption has not changed at all.
Speaker 3:It's the same exact vehicle, but we, with these tech companies and the fragmentation and hey you know, leverage everything to AI and let us optimize in our own DSP and be biased and make sure that we're getting as much money on our own and operate has completely devolved.
Speaker 3:How we understand attention and how we're actually, you know, being really really particular to focusing on how do we actually make Chris or David or Adriana really fall in love with this creative in the production we're just more focused on where is it showing up? And I think that's a blind spot that the tech companies have instilled in us and also AI is instilling in us, because AI is just automating this. So when you're working with a DV360, google, you're showing up on YouTube because they're going to be able to monetize and make a lot more money on that, and that's a big blind spot. And a lot of agencies and brands don't realize how much extra they're paying just by being on very, very biased DSPs or platforms or vendors or advertisers. And that's where I think being agnostic, having that human touch with AI, can help a lot and really make the advertising landscape make more sense, if you will.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, Evan, I loved that. We're kind of wrapping with that mindset, and that's one of the reasons why I got into advertising. From our early career in journalism was just to like help bring truth to what is a bias, was just to like help bring truth to what is a bias. There are a lot of systemic things wrong with the systems that are in play that everyone is relying on. So, like way to drop the mic there, I do just want to end with kind of like a few rapid fire questions for you both, and you guys can divvy up who you want to take them, but just for fun.
Speaker 3:Ladies first Adriana.
Speaker 2:All right. First AI tool you ever used.
Speaker 4:I don't know. I probably, I mean, I probably didn't realize what it was at the time. What come? Everything is AI. Everything has been AI for so long that, like I feel like we were using AI before it was a thing you know, I can't think of one. I mean, that's a good answer right there.
Speaker 2:That works, evan.
Speaker 3:Chat GPT and I love chat GPT.
Speaker 2:That goes for me too. That thing is like my buddy Underrated media channel right now digital out of home we're getting head nods from david, are you? Yeah, I don't want to.
Speaker 5:I don't want to interrupt the flow, but yeah, we're big on digital out of home I was.
Speaker 3:I was on the subway in new york city. First time I've I I've seen like the actual they have digital like posters. Now, and like I'm like man, this digital out of home is going to continue to grow and just become ubiquitous. So I would say digital out of home, home.
Speaker 5:All right, I won't drop the flow, but I think the reason why we're so excited, too, is that digital out of home is. It feels like this is where we're having the most fun talking with the creative agencies that we partner with, too. It's like this is everybody's having so much fun talking about what we can do with digital out of home in a way that feels super fresh and new.
Speaker 2:Surprisingly for digital out of home all right that's three more, three more quick ones, one buzzword and ad tech. You wish we could retire, I can start. I'll just like the whole third party cookie conversation and dialogue. I feel like, just like, has to wind itself down. That's a, that's a, that's a good one.
Speaker 3:I mean, I'm gonna say kpis just because, like I keep, performance indicators are important. But I just feel like sometimes we just like fall in love with acronyms and KPIs is just. Every single conversation is about KPIs. I'll probably think of a better one as soon as we get off of this, but I'm just so sick of that acronym.
Speaker 2:I like that. That's kind of like a hot take on a popular one, so I consider that a hot take.
Speaker 4:Honestly, I you know I'm going to go off the cuff here and kind of say AI, I know it's what we're talking about right now, but there's more to it. This entire conversation has been about yes, it's important, but there's also more to it. Not to say it's not valuable, but I think it's becoming an overused buzzword. I think companies are starting to use it like I don't know the carrot that you dangle in front of the horse without understanding fully what to do with it.
Speaker 2:Love that Biggest aha moment from recent campaign.
Speaker 3:I would say that the biggest aha moment I've had in the last year for campaigns is just the necessity to build in journeys and that's understanding the upper funnel, mid funnel, lower funnel, not just focusing on retargeting the lowest common denominator, highest propensity shoppers. You need to always be building that upper funnel new customer because law of diminishing returns will kill you down here, but if you're operating up here you'll always have supply that will eventually convert.
Speaker 4:I would say, going back to how volatile the world has seemed lately and it's always been important but really harping on the importance of the ability to pivot, Even if a campaign's been working for months and months and months, something might change. That's out of your control. You need to be able to have the flexibility to be able to pivot on a dime.
Speaker 2:I like that. I like that too. That's good, I mean, and similar to Evan, what you were saying one thing we've noticed is we've had a couple large national brands come to us and say that we've been focusing so long on just social bottom of the funnel performance that we've lost our brand, we've lost our story, people don't know what we're about, and it's like so many of those conversations. So I think that's really I love that Drum roll the one thing AI will never be able to do in media, and that's our last one before we head out, which I think you guys have addressed quite well in this conversation, but we'll end there.
Speaker 4:Tell a story with emotion.
Speaker 3:I love that. I was going to say have soul right, Like bring soul to a campaign, especially in creative production. I just don't think it's there yet, I don't think it can mimic the human heart and I hope it never does.
Speaker 2:I love that. I just want to put a disclaimer that a lot of my questions today came from the assist of AI, so full circle, full circle. So thank you both so much. We're excited to be partnering with you all more in the future and hopefully this is a good resource for everyone. Thanks for joining us around the fire and, evan, next time you're in Portland. Last time we saw each other in person was at the honeypaw good restaurant, so next time you're out, we'll do it again. We'll do it again, all right, thanks guys.
Speaker 4:Thank you.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to fireside from campfire consulting. Join us again by the fire as we explore more ways to connect through media. Till next time, be responsibly different.