How A Non-Doctor Turned A Family Clinic Into A Regional Powerhouse

Transcript

Meet Tim And The Clinic’s Vision

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Anthony Amen show. I'm Anthony Eamon. And today we have a great episode for all of you. Today, we have Tim Growth here from Growth Pain Management. I just found out the largest pain management clinic in the whole Northeast. So that's upsetting. Tim, pleasure having you on today.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Absolutely. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Before we dive into this episode a little, tell us a little bit about what growth pain management is and where you guys are headed in the future.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Yeah, so growth pain management started off as pretty much strictly pain management, where we do epidurals, interventional pain management. And uh, you know, when I joined my dad, who actually started the company in 2006, we had this idea to make it really a multidisciplinary practice. So over the course of the last six years, we've added chiropractic care, we've added physical therapy, we've added massage, we've understood the massive benefits of mental health. I actually have an MSW before I wound up going back into the business world and doing sales and then finding my way back into uh medicine as a as a CEO. So added social work to the practice, clinical social work, psychology, um, and just focused on bringing like a holistic approach where people can go and get, you know, treatment for a lot of things that are related to pain.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

And that's where I want to start, because you mentioned your father started this company and it's something you ended up taking over. So bring us back childhood. You're growing up, right? You're going to the same Drew Village Central Schools district. Did you know that this is something you were going to end up in to eventually run? Or is this something that you kind of stumbled back into?

Leaving Corporate To Rebuild The Practice

SPEAKER_00 1:32

It's a really good question. Uh, you know, when I was young, me and my dad would always go in the hot tub several times a week. And I guess probably because when you're young and you don't have a medical background, you're not gonna understand much about medicine. So my dad would always talk to me about business because he had his own practice. So he said, Hell, we're doing this at work now and it's going really well. And he would always get me really excited about just numbers and accounting and and just success and like what it took to just operate something that, you know, was helping people in the community. And so I when when I was really young, we'd kind of always joke about it. But, you know, I took a little while to mature. I was your typical teenage boy who had to go to college and learn life lessons and slow down a little bit and walk before I ran. And so I I never, I mean, it was it was in the universe, but I never necessarily thought, oh my God, I'm gonna go back and run my dad's pain management practice. And then, you know, push came to shove. It was 2019. I was interested in learning consulting and doing other things. And I was work, I was actually working for T-Mobile after having gotten an accounting degree and then my MSW and really successful there. And, you know, I was trying to talk to my dad about how like this could translate into something bigger in my life because I always felt like you know, I could do something more. And he gave me this opportunity to come to New York for a week and just practice pretty much like what I was learning online through consulting, through uh, you know, these kind of these people that were just modernizing how to think about business and and online ads and and everything. And uh I came up for a week and it was January. I took a week of PTO. He paid me$2,000 for the week. And I gave him this analysis on the practice from what I've seen after he had been in business for 15 years on his own or 14 years on his own. And I went back to Florida. I had a girlfriend there, I didn't think much of it. And about a month and a half later, he goes, You know, you're gonna come up and you know, travel back and forth and consult for the practice or or not? And I was like, Oh, shit, this is this is real, you know, and like I it you just can't pass those opportunities up in life, right? Like, it's just a an opportunity that I had to take. And I was living in Florida for nine years, but I wasn't gonna miss it. So I said yes, and and I gave a month's notice to my my employer of a several years and came back to New York and was traveling back and forth for six months until I decided that you know, to really be all in, I needed to be here.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

You mentioned you had mentors and people you followed through 2019 when you were still T-Mobile, and that we learned from who were specifically those mentors, and what's a big lesson you learned from them that translated to being here?

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Oh man, as definitely a few mentors. I mean, I had a mentor in college who you know really motivated me to get involved and to be a leader and to take initiative and to help people and to really work on myself and think that was really valuable. And then, you know, when I when I got into T-Mobile, I I worked with the guy who started his own franchise as a part of T-Mobile, and then he wound up selling to a guy named Lou Provost, who was actually the vice president of Radio Shack before it went out of business. And so they they they were smart, they had corporate ideas for leadership development programs, and I got to be experienced those, and I got to partake as a leader in those, and I got to travel around their company to different places and and work on best practices, even create my own best best practices that got implemented company-wide. And so I think, you know, through really who was my best friend in college, and then you know, the person who took me on in an internship throughout in my social work, my master's degree, and then the people at T-Mobile who kind of helped train me, I was able to uh, you know, learn the skill set I needed to then evolve to where I guess finally am today.

Culture Shift And Transparent Leadership

SPEAKER_01 5:13

So yeah, and this is something you took, did and didn't. And I know that you didn't go the medical route, right? You didn't become a doctor and then start running a practice, which is where most people in this field do, the medical side first and then do the business. You hop directly into the business side. What was that like as an experience transitioning into the medical field? And then you come into a place of work and people are looking at you differently because you're not a doctor. Has that ever affected you, even from day one?

COVID Shock As Trust-Building Moment

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Yeah, I think you know, you in life you can face a lot of uphill battles, and a lot of them are just ones that you're either gonna let get in your way or not let get in your way. Everybody has, you know, you can come from an inheritance or you could work hard to get it. And inheritance could be his problem as much as not having it in the first place. And it's I think a lot of it really just ties back to mindset um and how you're gonna think about things. So I was, you know, the owner's son, so I had to face that. And then, you know, I had no medical experience, so I had to face that. And uh, you know, a lot of people think when that's going on, and even people I've hired, you know, they'll say the first thing is like, I'm not gonna take a job where it's family, right? Because like who who hires family, like that that doesn't often end well, right? Like that if there's conflict, how does that end? Um, and so you know, I I came into the practice and uh, you know, I just had to learn a lot, a lot of tough lessons, right? Like I we had a manager at first, after three to four months, she retired and moved on because she saw the direction the practice was headed and was at that point in her life where she didn't want to just start building something new again, which is where we were going. And uh I think the biggest key to success from that point forward was learning to lean on the people around me who had all the knowledge and understanding that you just had to ask the right questions and analyze things to unlock, you know, where you needed to go. So I really felt that like through asking everyone that worked there, that I could learn what we needed to do to be successful. And I was able to build relationships with them. I I feel like I really needed to get my MSW, and that helped me get to a point where I could be more empathetic and compassionate and listen instead of just think at, you know, I mean at that point I was 29 years old or so, but like I just knew it all, right? And so that kind of taught me um how to interact with people better, and I think that was really important.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

But how did you overcome that, especially in that first week? I can imagine a lot of people aren't gonna take it seriously. You're the owner's son, right? They look at you and go, Well, maybe I want to go straight around to your dad as opposed to coming through you. So, what is something, even like a tough lesson that you faced right at the get-go, and how were you able to get past that?

Strategic Staffing And Unemployment Math

SPEAKER_00 7:58

I think a lot of lessons were more on like the business side, like signing a bad contract with insurance or not even realizing a credentialing thing and it cost our practice$300,000 over the course of three months, um, dealing with audits or other compliance issues where maybe you should have known certain billing practices should be handled a different way. You know, I didn't, I never really fed into that belief and around, you know, oh, it, you know, your dad's son. I came in and I came in with energy and vision. And, you know, people who weren't gonna get aligned weren't gonna be there, you know? And so, like, I I think people, you know, saw that I was there to take feedback seriously and I was there to act quickly and efficiently, and that their concerns were gonna be heard and acted on. And I think the previous, you know, administration was very frugal and cheap and non-collaborative. And kind of, I think really another thing that it comes down to is like medicine can be very stuffy. It's very top-down, it's very quiet behind doors. And like, here I was this young guy who was gonna get everybody involved, include everybody, hear what everybody had to say, consider every single opinion, and and and act on the ones that made sense and then communicate around everything that was going on. Like, hey, you know, this is why we're doing this, or this is why we need to do that, and this is why we're not gonna act on what you think we should do in this situation. But do you understand? And promoting that understanding and that communication, I think goes a long way because when companies and practices make decisions and there's not good communication and people don't understand things, they get resentful, they get frustrated, they don't get on board, right? And so I was kind of aware of all those things, and I wanted to bring everybody together and move together unified, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

But that must have been hard trying to get everyone on the same same page. Like personally, in my own business, right? We changed company direction and we're like, all right, we're gonna super pivot this way. And now you're trying to drag all these people and promote this different kind of culture that didn't exist before because everyone's complacent for where they are, and it's a culture shock. And then you see people that follow along, you see people that hit the bare minimum, and you see people that actively push against that. So, what is something you saw here? Because I'm sure you had people pushing against you. No, no, we're not gonna follow them. We're gonna like someone retired, right?

Hard Work Ethic And Family Dynamics

SPEAKER_00 10:16

That's a way to push against that's a great example. So, yes, the the woman that you know, and the office manager definitely did not want to modernize things, did not want to move forward, did not necessarily didn't have the skill set anymore to be on top of and act as quickly and swiftly as I wanted to move. And so I think one of the biggest challenges was my dad had been with her for 14 years, and I had to get him to basically believe in what I wanted to accomplish, in spite of the fact that she didn't agree with it or think it was right. And so, like, I think that was really hard. I remember he was even having a conversation with my uncle who's visiting from California at one point, because there wasn't a pathway forward for my vision and her vision. And, you know, he was scared because here's this son who's been in healthcare for now four months, and it's like office manager or my son, and which ones which one am I gonna go with? And you know, I mean, I think at the end of the day it took six months, but finally decided to talk to the office manager about retiring, and that paved the pathway for everybody else getting on board. And to be honest, I think for the most part, everybody was like excited by the breath of fresh air, and really, really didn't have a hard time getting on board. There's there's certain people that weren't good fits because their skill set wasn't there, and we parted ways with those people, but I think like other than that, everybody was pretty well receptive.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

And you mentioned your father having to struggle with uh six months going back and forth to specifically this woman so I guess my question is how was your relationship with your father uh growing up? And then did that change when you started here and you were telling him, Hey, we should do this instead of this? Did you guys have contradictions against each other at all? Or was it all just hey, whatever you want, we'll do it?

Breaking In Via MSO Structure

Succession, Liability, And Equity

Expansion Plans And PE Strategy

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Yeah, I think like he approached me joining the practice from the perspective of like and this is what he said to me, Tim, if you don't uh join the practice and help me, I'm just gonna ride off into the sunset. I'm gonna keep working until all the money's gone, until I'm ready to retire. And I've he was at a place in his life where he had made what he needed to make to be good. He was set, he was 62 years old, he had made dozens of millions of dollars, he had invested that money wisely, and he wanted to keep going, and he could keep going, but he wanted to keep going, maybe not as much for the financial success. I mean, yes, he enjoyed making good money, but because he liked helping people in the community and all those things. So I think when I joined he kind of already in his mind was like, Well, either we're gonna do really cool things and build a succession strategy, because that's what we did it under the idea of like this is a succession strategy. We're gonna build this base so it's not dependent on you, and we're gonna solidify a real business model that isn't just a solopreneurship, right? And so, in doing that, I mean, he was he was on board. He was like, Okay, let's let's give it a shot. And if things don't go well, I'm gonna ride off into the sunset, which is kind of where his head was at anyway. So I don't think there was a lot of friction there, but I also think like he raised me. So like we collaborated really well. Like it was, it was really, we were both logical. It was very easy to say, like, what do you think about this? And he would give me the medical side of it, and I would evaluate the number side of it, or he would point me in the direction of resources to have conversations with. And I think, like, you know, he didn't even have a website, he didn't have any marketing, he didn't have like any sort, he was like, there was a lot of things he wasn't doing that were no-brainers. So I think it was very easy to quickly add monetary value. And like in him seeing that, and and I I guess this is where it actually got really tricky, but but aside so in him seeing that, it was just like, okay, we're like, we're making you know, an extra million dollars is coming in, like, so what? Like that, like I don't need to question things, right? But I do think the biggest, biggest challenge that I had to face and where I really had to get creative, is like I started, I I on July of 2019 was when I really took over things, right? What was seven months later? COVID, right? And so I had to, as somebody who had no idea about healthcare, no idea about insurance companies, no idea about anything in medicine other than my dad on the clinical side who was an ally, I had to now figure out how to operate a medical practice during a pandemic, right? Where things are shut down, people don't go to work, how's staffing going, you know, who's coming in, how how do how is our business affected, how are the other practices affected, how are the hospitals affected, and then how do we continue to function, capitalize on that and and move forward? And I think that was a really cool opportunity for me to really like gain a lot of people's trust because I don't know if you remember this, but like the government came out and basically said, Oh, anybody who works like 20 hours a week is gonna qualify for full unemployment. And it was like the craziest thing ever. It was like, wait, so like you can work 20 hours a week and you're gonna make$500 a week in unemployment, and you're a$15 an hour employee. So you can, so 40 hours times 15 is$1,600,$600 a week. So I can cut you back to 20 hours a week, you can make$300 a week, and you can get$500 unemployment. So you can make$800 instead of$600 and you can work 20 less hours. And I started doing the math in my head. I'm like, oh my God. I was like, I don't, I don't need all these people anymore because our volume's down and people are working from home, but I also can like help all these people like strategically. So I was on the phone with all our employees, and it was funny because in principle, some of them were like, I'm never going on unemployment. And I was like, no, listen, listen, you're you're going out unemployment. You're working 20 hours a week and you're going out unemployment. This is the greatest thing ever. Like, are you crazy? And so, like, we put like all our staff instead of like laying people off and doing things not methodically, we like literally put everyone in the best position possible and and cut them down to 20 hours, or didn't hurt people too. Like any of the providers that like wouldn't benefit from a situation like that, we didn't change a dollar in how we paid people. We took care of everyone and we just made it through and we were able to strategically do that.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

So COVID was a blessing to you.

Final Reflections And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_00 16:26

COVID was a huge blessing, but also because of what it did to the environment, right? Like, not not the environment, but private practice that was not hospital-based. All the elective procedures that hospitals got canceled, they weren't allowed to do anything, but we were a private practice. Surgery centers all canceled. So, like, we were able to take advantage of PPP, we were pretty unaffected from that. Like surgery centers got canceled for us, but that wasn't really a big deal. So, like, and my dad, you know, one of the greatest things I ever learned from my dad was definitely hard work. Like that guy would never miss a day of work in his life for anything. Like, I I literally think in his 15 years, you never miss a day of work. Like, he would take vacation, planned vacation, sure. Like we would we would do nice things as a family, but like if he was sick, he was going to work. If he crashed his car in the morning because it was snowing, like literally, I remember one day at Camaro, his Camaro, he drove it in the snow because that's all he had to drive, spun out, crashed into the trees. My mom picked him up and took him to work. So, like, like he was not missing work for anything. And so I think that was a pretty valuable lesson. Like, just like, you know, you you always work hard.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Did that bother you as a kid, though, when your dad was always going to work without you realizing it?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Nah, I mean, like, so I think that sh like early on it was like that. But he always took vacation may time, come to baseball tournaments, do this, do that. But it like early on, it was tough for him because he was still doing anesthesia and like he'd be gone all weekend, he'd be like doing overnight shifts, the hospitals and stuff. But that provided, like, once again, all about your mentality, opportunity for me to bond with my sister and my mom. I mean, me and my mom, or my mom and I, uh, every Friday night we'd watch Sabrina the Teenage Teenage Witch, Becker, uh, Friends, I think, and uh, and there was one other show. But like, we we would stay up for like four hours watching these TV shows, and like I think until I was like 10, I slept in her bed, which that might be a little weird, but I mean, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Is your sister older or younger? Four years younger. Four years younger. Yeah. That's exciting that you kind of got to have someone. I mean, just going back, like to your dad, it it's a fail-safe, right? You coming in. Yeah, he's fine irregardless of whether or not you make it, and there's all upside to gain and no downside.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

And then COVID comes in, gives you an opportunity not only to do something different in the medical field, but I think the golden opportunity for you, just looking at it from an outside perspective, you built trust in your staff. What did you do? You said, I'm gonna make you more money and work less and not lay you off. What was everyone else doing? Sorry, you can't work here anymore. I'm going out of business. So you were able to build that trust and that foundation in your staff. So when things started opening up a starting good, they were all like, Yeah, like this is somebody that was there for me, he cared. And you got that opportunity to prove to them who you were as an individual.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Is that something you disagree with?

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Or no, I 100% agree with that. And I think recognizing people, I think like, and you know, just setting expectations. I remember, you know, you asked me earlier about challenges and they're coming back. You know, this is all five, six years ago. So as we're sitting here talking, I'm thinking one of the biggest challenges six years ago was like APPs in medicine, right? Like their nurse practitioners and PAs weren't as prevalent. Everybody wanted to see the doctor. My dad had a relationship with people for 15 years that he was seeing. So one of the things that I butted heads with with the old office manager, one was her hiring practices, but two is her idea that like nobody wanted to see an APP. And so she actively like fed that to everybody at the practice. And so I had to overcome that. And, you know, the front desk, like they wouldn't even ask, they wouldn't even try and put people on APP schedules because they were so defeated by like the mentality of administration. And so I had, you know, I went up hiring a couple people, and one of them, one of them was one of my best hires ever. Her name's Christy, and she's worked for me for six years now, or five, five, six years now. She's a practice manager now. She's grown from, you know, a$20 an hour employee to a six-figure employee. And uh she was at the front desk and I said, Listen, one in ten people every single day switching from my dad to an APP is success. As long as we ask everyone. Because if one in ten moves every single day, it's only a few months before everybody's moved. And so, like, we finally we we did that. And before we knew it, uh we hired one APP and then two APPs and three APPs, and now we have 20 APPs. And guess who sees most of the patients? Uh 85% of the patients who are not consults, new patients, or procedures which require doctors are seen by the APPs. Uh and that's kind of where medicine went.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

That's a win-win for you right there. I have one more technical question for you. Yeah, sure. Something I feel like a lot of people are gonna be curious about and hopefully learn from because you have experience in it. Getting involved as a CEO as a medical practice, how in practicality can you do that? Because I know I personally I felt like a physical therapy, something I've looked into myself. I'm legally not allowed to own a physical therapy clinic because I'm not a physical therapist.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

So how do you overcome that? How can someone from the outside watching say, okay, maybe I'm not a doctor, but maybe I have a business mindset that can open up the world and do things differently? How do I get involved in medical company without being a doctor?

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Yeah. So I think only that's specific to certain states, right? So, like obviously that applies to New York. It's the corporate practice of medicine, right? Yeah. And so obviously being aligned with my dad, that provided a provided a unique opportunity. But I do think other people can definitely break in as well. Um, so in working with my dad, you know, he he supervises the clinicians, he manages the clinicians. Of course, he talks to me and we collaborate and everything like that. And now up, you know, Dr. Amen, your brother's kind of involved in a lot of leadership of the practice as well. Um, and so I think, you know, you obviously can't own a medical practice in New York unless you're a doctor. So you either have to be You have to be aligned with physicians in some way. So, one, obviously, family working with my dad, he continues to own the medical practice. And then, you know, you could work as a W-2 employee and take on a, you know, you still be CEO, you still be president, you can still be vice president, president of operations, any of that. So that's kind of how it started, right? Like I came in, I was an employee, I was a consultant, 1099, eventually became W-2, and I really led everything that wasn't clinical, which is a lot, a lot, right? I can't employ clinicians, but I still can be involved in everything that relates to operations, that relates to hiring, that relates to firing, that relates to all everything, right? Supplies, negotiating contracts, and and dealing with all that, real estate leases. So I took on all of that. And then two years in, we were like, okay, I should start my own business and we should set up kind of like an MSO. And so I think this is how like you explain what an MSO is.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

So a man MSO is a management services organization. Um, and some people refer to like ASO now. Um, but so you set up an organization, and that organization basically contracts with the clinical organization to provide all the services that aren't clinical, and it's basically everything except for staffing the clinicians, right? And in return for that, you can charge a fair market value fee for your service. And so, you know, when you start thinking about every single expense except for doctors and clinicians, that's millions and millions of dollars. And then you charge a 20, 30% markup. I mean, even higher markup than that, right? As long as it's fair market value, it's not a problem. And so you're able to wind up getting a fair amount of money out of the practice through the MSO for all the hard work and management services that you're providing. And so I think you know, you would break in by be getting a leadership opportunity associated with the practice, being able to become exposed. So if you can become a COO and eventually take over or get involved in the financial side of things, build a reputation around kind of doing all the things that somebody who owns or MS owns MSO would do. And then from there, you know, I think if you can build financial resources, you can obviously then go and invest in an MSO structure and contract with other physicians who want to go out on their own from other practices, which we even see now. There's multiple physicians who come to us and they're like, or come to me directly and they're like, Tim, can you help us start our own practice? And so, like, I can instantly put some of my own money on the table or not set up an MSO, develop a contract with them, and now have control over everything that they depend on to operate. So I don't need to be owner of the clinical practice. I just now have control over everything else, which means the clinical practice doesn't really exist without me. Right. And so I think if I were someone else looking to get in medicine, I would try and get very diversified experience in an industry or specialty that I really was interested in. So build my way up, understand the operations, understand the financial side, understand the leasing and and business side, prove prove through that leadership in the community that I was super valuable, and then look for those opportunities where people wanted to get out on their own and and and do it do it on my own with them.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

So what happens, and this is kind of one of the final questions, especially to you here, right? So your dad still technically owns a declinician side of it, right? Yep. What happens when he passes?

SPEAKER_00 25:25

So I mean, at this point, I mean one of the investors is also a physician, so he actually owns a minority interest um as well. And then I think outside of that, you take on partners, right? In in the MSO, because that's where the real value is. And I think, you know, the idea would be to give equity to the person who's going to put their name on the door. And really, I mean, there probably is a little bit of risk that comes with like having your name on the door or owning the clinical entity. So that's why you you'd get the equity for it. But I mean, I think all of the responsibility winds up aside from the clinical side, which is recovered very well with insurance, right? Is is really on the MSO. All the contracts are signed through the MSO. So all the financial liability is really on the MSO side. The only liability would be anything clinical, and we would give up some equity for someone to take over the ownership.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

That's amazing. What's the future for Tim Growth?

SPEAKER_00 26:17

For Growth Pain and Spine. For you. For me? Oh man, that's a tough question. I think uh, so we are partnered with private equity now in in the in a structure with MSO. And I think our idea is in the next year or so, a little bit longer, to get outside of New York, because New York is one of the hardest. If you could do it in New York, you could basically do it anywhere. It is corporate practice medicine here is for real. Kathy Hochel right now is talking about, you know, passing this new all these new stipulations and laws around reporting and and crazy, crazy things that basically need to be done to do a transaction in New York, really that make it so that all in fact, when we were going through the process of working with PE, a lot of people didn't want to be in New York because of that, right? And so next 12 months to a to to a year and a half would be to get outside New York, acquire something. You know, we're looking at something in South Carolina, we were looking at something in PA, we're looking at something in North Carolina, and so really aligning with another practice that has similar values to us and growth mindset, and then making that acquisition and then continuing to expand up the whole Northeast. And it goes one of two ways, really, from here, right? So in three or four years, when we look to sell again or take on another partner, uh, the number one goal would be to work with a middle market PE group that believes in us in a platform. And this is really where everything's on the line, right? So and I guess I associate myself with the practice so much, and you know, at that point I would reevaluate, but they would look at us in four years, and that's where the report card would come out. Did we build a platform? Did we build an MSO? Did we build a clinic that a middle market private equity partner thinks can compete with Clearway or the big players across the entire United States? Like, are we going to be a regional player? Or what happens four years from now is we don't get that type of attention and we either don't sell, which is probably unlikely, or we sell to a strategic strategic, right? So Northwell or Clearway or one of the other big groups comes in and buys us, and then Tim's an employee. And uh who knows? But I think, you know, I think I'm on board for the next four or five years to really hustle and work with, you know, the physicians and our leadership team to try and be that platform. And, you know, depending on how it works out, I'll decide. But I I think um, you know, and in five years, I'm very open-minded. I'd be happy to spend more time with my family. I'd be happy to step aside and slow down. I'd be happy to, you know, go out there and take on the United States as it relates to to pain management and anything else we get involved in. But um, yeah, I I would say uh, you know, I I think I'll if if we attract, you know, middle market PE or sell to a strategic, I'll be in a really good situation. So it might not be worth it for me to stay involved, but we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Well, Tim, I wish you the best of luck. Thank you guys for watching this week's episode of the Anthony Amos show. Please don't forget, like, subscribe, share. It's all where we go. Until next time.