Recomp Strategies, Breaking Fat Loss Plateaus, Calculating Macros & Calories, Balancing Cardio/Lifting & More - Q&A with Coach Jake | Ep. 109

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In this episode, we dive into a wide range of fitness topics, starting with personal updates and recent podcast milestones. We discuss how to overcome weight loss plateaus, timing calorie changes for optimum weight loss or muscle growth, and whether running or walking is better for fat loss. The episode also addresses how to recomp after making common dieting mistakes and whether to eat at maintenance or remain in a deficit for body recomposition. Join Kade and Coach Jake as they answer listener questions and share actionable advice for achieving your fitness goals.

00:00 Welcome Back to the Podcast!
00:53 Spotify Wrapped and Listener Stats
02:59 Introducing Coach Jake and Today's Q&A
03:17 Breaking Through Fat Loss Plateaus
14:22 Adjusting Caloric Intake for Weight Loss and Muscle Growth
21:44 Calculating Macros and Calories
30:56 Cardio for Fat Loss: Running vs Walking
31:55 Sustainability and Personal Preference in Cardio
32:48 Balancing Cardio with Weightlifting
34:19 The Role of Step Count in Fat Loss
39:23 Recomping After a Low-Calorie, High-Cardio Diet
49:38 Maintaining Muscle During Weight Loss
54:08 Ideal Weight vs Ideal Body Composition
58:47 Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE) and Recomp
01:00:34 Podcast Wrap-Up and Future Plans

The Body Recomposition Podcast | A podcast to help YOU recomp (lose fat and build muscle simultaneously), improve your health, discover new workout and diet tactics, and progress further in your fitness journey.

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→ Body Recomp Coaching

→ FREE Body Recomp Guide

→ Kade's Instagram

Transcript

 All right, what's going on guys? I'm excited to be back Recording a podcast here because it's been a couple months. It's been a wild few months and i've had a couple of these phases over the last What five years since the podcast started where? Things just get insane and the podcast kind of has to go on the back burner The thing I love about podcasting is it's evergreen like it's all the content out there You can go back listen to over a hundred episodes You Um, it's not like Instagram where it's like you have to post every day.

So I just, the podcast is one of, if not my favorite ways to make content. Cause I feel like I can give a lot more value here. So I'm excited to make 2025 a really big year for the podcast and just giving you guys as much value as possible. I don't want to start just by thanking you guys, because something that got me Even more fired up to get back into this just consistently  at least, you know  Ideally once a week uploads is, you know, how Spotify does like the Spotify wrapped and it tells you like your, you know, top artists and podcasts and all that stuff.

Uh, I didn't know this, but they do it for the creators too. So people that have a podcast or I'm sure they do it for like artists for their music and whatnot. But I just stumbled across that and went through it. A couple days ago and I just want to share a couple of the things that  I was honestly surprised about Um, but got me really Really excited.

Um, the podcast is over doubled in listeners over the past year. It's in the top 10 podcasts for 1, 860 of you guys. It's in the top five podcasts for 964  and it's the number one podcast for 164 of you guys, which is, that's pretty crazy to me. I wouldn't have expected that. I thought it would have been like. 

Number one for three people and it's my mom brother and wife or something But it was really cool to to see that and it's in 95 countries Which I think that's a lot of countries. I can't remember how many countries there's 100 and something, right? But anyways,  I just want to thank you guys It's it's been really fun doing this and i'm excited to get back in a really good groove.

There's also episode number 72 Was the top listen to episode and that was all about like Creatine and like a full creatine 101 walking through how creatine works how you should use it all that stuff So if you want to go back and listen to that one, I don't really remember what I said in it I think it was pretty good because it was the number one Episode so thank you guys for just supporting the podcast.

I I love this and I'm excited to keep on going. But as far as today's episode, I have coach Jake back on the podcast. We recorded a handful of podcasts last year and we today, we're just going through. A Q and a, um, and we're answering a lot of really fun questions that were, uh, fun to jump into. So first question is how to get over a plat, a fat loss plateau.

We talk about how often you should change your calorie intake for weight loss or muscle growth, calculating your macros calories. Um, if you should incorporate running or jogging rather than walking to increase fat loss, Um, what you should do if you.  We're a little bit too aggressive with fat loss and cardio and you now want to do a little more sustainable Recomposition  if you stop going to the gym, are you gonna lose?

Mostly fat or muscle if you're losing weight.  Uh, if you should focus on losing fat first or building muscle. If you're around 15 pounds over your ideal weight. And then if you should eat at your maintenance intake for a recomp. Or if you should stay in a deficit. And we go Through a couple other things in addition to this.

So again, thank you guys for listening. I'm excited to keep this going. Um, and I hope you enjoy this podcast with coach Jake. All right. Jumping into the first question, I'll pass this one to you, Jake, and then we'll go back and forth a little bit. But the first one. We had two questions that were very similar.

One was how to get over a weight loss plateau. Other was how to get over a cutting plateau. So basically the same thing. So how do you go about getting over a plateau with a client, Jake?  

Yeah. So there's kind of like a few layers to this. I would say that the first one is you have to sort of first delve in and see like, are we really seeing a plateau?

Because I know actually, um, from one of my clients who, who I think asked this question, um, he was kind of, what he was kind of seeing was more so like some water retention, right. And some weight gain after Thanksgiving and was kind of discouraged and like feeling like that was a plateau, but typically what we see and what he's already starting to see, on his weigh ins is things will come back down to normal in the next like week or so.

So that's why we like to just track our client's weight weekly to make sure that what we're noticing is not just like a one off where you know you go up a few pounds in a day or two after eating a little bit more than you're used to. Um, so first off, like trying to make sure that you are definitely at that place of a plateau.

And then I'd say from there, you kind of go one of two ways, which is some people just need to kind of double down and get a little bit more strict on their tracking. Or you can also, you know, there's always the Um, alternative to reduce calories, but you want to be careful with that because you can only do that so many times throughout a cutting phase.

You know, if you're starting at, let's just say any average person might start at about 2000 calories to cut. You know, maybe they're like an average size guy. Um, you're only going to want to take that down by a couple hundred calories, maybe once or twice.  To the point where you're at 15, 16 or calories, anything lower than that becomes hard to sustain.

And so from there, you might start to kind of talk about the benefits of doing like a reverse diet, which is a more drawn out process talking like two, three months, but just to make those future cutting endeavors easier. But I would say I kind of go through those steps of like, are we, are we observing this realistically?

Is it really a plateau or is it just kind of a couple? off days, you know, weight loss isn't linear. A lot of times we'll see people lose a couple of pounds one week, not lose a pound the next week, and then lose a couple of pounds the following week. So making sure what we're actually seeing is a plateau and then figuring out whether to like push harder or kind of switch gears and more go into the reverse dieting phase. 

Yeah, I would, I would agree with that. I have a followup question for you. What, what kind of timeframe do you consider like, All right. This is a plateau, you know, like considering like everything they're, they're adhering to the calorie intake or whatever method that you're using. Would you say like, if they're, say their weight is staying stagnant for one week, do you consider that a plateau?

And like, okay, maybe we do need to reduce calories. Is it two weeks? Is it three weeks? What's kind of your general.  Thought on that, 

I would say between two and three weeks, I would never, I never go off what we see in just one week. Cause you want to see if that's repeatable over another week, you know, just like there's quite a bit of noise between like day to day weight fluctuations one week to the next, there can just be something weird that's going on.

And so I usually like to wait like two or three weeks. And again, like my instinct first is to make sure that everything's being tracked correctly before just, again, because while. The obvious answer might just be reduce your calories or, you know, walk more, move more, burn more. We all know that physiologically that yes, is technically a way to break through a plateau and see more weight loss.

It's just, again, you don't want to just go to that because it starts to become less and less effective. And it's just something you only want to do every so often. So oftentimes just, You know, we'll talk about something as simple as like tracking, you know, like peanut butter can be something that's so high in calorie.

And maybe there's things like that throughout that add up throughout the day, you know, instead of tracking two tablespoons of peanut butter, you're just kind of eyeballing it. You're looking at like three or four, you know, tracking things like olive oil, a little bit more precisely. Being a little bit more strict about what you're eating on the weekends and like those treat meals and stuff like that.

And just reining in on things without touching the calorie count is usually where I tend to go first as a coach. Because again, it's just, I want to really make sure that the client is ready for a calorie decrease and that is necessary before just, you know, saying, Oh, one week with a deficit, let's knock you down a couple hundred calories. 

Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. And I think,  especially this time of year, you know, like the client who, who was saying that like, you know, he hit essentially hit a weight loss plateau and it's like, we just had Thanksgiving. So I think the biggest thing to ask yourself is you do have the two routes. Is it like, I guess there's kind of three routes, either you clean things up, you get more adherent to, you know, the current calorie intake or whatever it is, or you, uh, Decrease calories if you are being adherent or you take a break from fat loss.

Like those are kind of the, the three routes and maybe do a reverse diet. So I think asking yourself, like, what is the most productive use of my time  for right now at this period of my life? Cause like throughout the holidays. For a lot of people pushing really aggressive fat loss might not be the most productive thing.

It might be a good time to use this time to just sit right around maintenance. You're going to be able to build muscle easier and then enjoy the holidays more and then be able to, you know, afterwards. be able to push fat loss, you know, easier because your metabolism is a little bit higher. You have some more muscle on your frame.

And so I think considering that too is, is important, but yeah, I would agree with all, all that you said there. 

Yeah. And with a lot of clients, you'll kind of break things up to where you start to be in that reverse dieting maintenance phase around like November, December, if you can kind of work things out.

Um, because that obviously again, like it's more conducive to your eating more. And so if you can kind of make sure like that's your expectations, like I have this higher caloric budget, I'm focusing on having a bit more calories in my diet, pushing myself more in the gym. And that can coincide with those times where it's just natural to be eating more, taking in more calories.

That's always ideal. If you can kind of get those two things to line up, but I think sometimes people make the mistake of thinking, Oh, you know, I'll just like eating my maintenance calories for a week or two. Um, And that's not really typically enough time to see a big difference in your metabolism. You want to make sure it's like at least two to three months or so.

And especially for people who have spent a really prolonged period in a calorie deficit. You'll start to see that's the people who really start to fight these, these plateaus, because if you've been in a deficit for six months and you've seen. You know, 30, 40, give or take pounds of weight loss your body.

It starts to really, it starts to get so much harder to see continuous weight loss. And so you need to take a break and reverse diet and hit that maintenance at some point, and not just for a period of weeks, but. Ideally for even almost as long or just about as long as you've been doing that deficit to really let your metabolism increase back up.

And then at that point, you know, you can, you can increase your, your, um, maintenance calories, maybe five, 600 calories. And going back to losing fat at maybe like, what was your maintenance before? Because you've done that metabolic work, which is something that I think kind of gets underrated or underappreciated in the, in the scope of this conversation. 

Yeah, I think it's just hard because you don't, you don't get anything like right off the bat from like maintenance isn't very sexy. It's like, ah, I'm just going to like sit here and maintain, but. A lot of times that's the best thing in a situation like this for your long term goals, not just short term.

So it's kind of putting off like what you might want most right now versus what you want most in the long run. And I think that's, that's important in a lot of areas, including this. So anything else to add there? Do you want to go on to the next one? 

I think before we do something that's, you know, talk about something that's kind of similar, right?

There's something that is connected there, or I think is relevant to the conversation too, is like how you're looking at that. Again, maintenance isn't the most sexy thing. It's not as attractive to most people as seeing weight loss, but what I usually tell clients when they're making that shift into eating a bit more is let's really focus first and foremost on.

The reverse dieting phase, it's more so about the gym in terms of like, you really want to make sure you're getting stronger, pushing yourself, um, getting a lot stronger each week, using those extra calories as energy, gaining more muscle during that period. And that's kind of the main gauge, the main thing we want to look at, um, to guide success or be like focused on.

Whereas in a cuts, you know, you have to be that more, that much more strict with food and it becomes a lot more of a focus on nutrition. So the other benefit of that reverse dieting maintenance phase is you can kind of take the foot off the gas a little bit. In terms of food. And I always tell clients, like we're always pretty, pretty much preaching to clients, like the 80, 20 principle, 80 percent of your food should be whole natural food, 20 percent can be kind of those street foods or wherever else is that you enjoy.

You kind of get a chance during that maintenance phase. And you have this higher budget to be a little bit more, um, free with like how you spend your calories. It's kind of like if you're, if you're making more money. You have more money to kind of spend on things that aren't necessities. It's the same way when you're eating more, you can kind of take that time to indulge in some of your favorite things that you're going to have to get more strict about cutting out come the fat loss phase.

So that's just another like way that I like to frame it mentally as far as how it can be useful.  

Yeah. Yeah. I think we, we talked about like making like life gains, like it's not all about like fitness gains, you know? And like that gives you an opportunity to make more life gains. You go out, have more, you know, you go out and have dinner with friends or your significant other or whatever it is.

And like, you can focus more on that aspect and then actually make better gains in the sense of muscle growth, not just fat loss, you know? So that's also an advantage there for sure.  

So kind of touching on something that's related as far as our second question here, how often, and I'll have Kate start this question, how often should you change your caloric intake for weight loss slash muscle growth? 

Yeah, I think like most things, I'm a little bit sick still, so I'm going to be clearing my throat a lot, so. apologize for that, but like most things, it, it really depends. And I have a interesting example on this actually, because from person to person, it can be so, so different. Like some people you need very few adjustments.

Like I, so I get surprised, still with some people where we set a, a certain intake, to start. And, you know, we see a good rate of loss. It's not too quick to start, but it just like keeps hitting every week. It's like a pound and a half a week, a pound and a half a week, a pound and a half a week. Obviously, you know, some kind of ups and downs there, but on average it just keeps staying the same for, it could be months.

Um, I would say that's more rare. It's typically a little more frequent than that. And then there's other clients that, You have to make adjustments pretty frequently. So a funny example of this is my. Two clients, Travis and Nico, their father and son. They just did, it was Travis's first bodybuilding show.

Um, here a little over a month ago, Nico, he's competed a couple of times, but I coached both of them and they were polar opposites throughout Travis's, he had like a  five months, four or five months of actual prep pushing fat loss for the show. Throughout that whole time, it was like maybe four adjustments to his calorie intake, maybe, and like a couple little adjustments with his cardio.

Whereas Nico, we had  a time frame of like two months probably where we were, we were adjusting something every week because His body was just being a little bit more stubborn. I think a big portion of that was he had a lot going on. Like he got a new job and he was having to travel a lot for his job. So I don't think it was all just like his body being stubborn.

It was harder for him to adhere as well. But some people do have more of like a, like Travis would have more of a rigid. metabolism where it's like his metabolism is pretty set, which means if he, his maintenance calories is 2, 500 calories, he goes down to 2000. He's going to be able to lose body fat and weight pretty easily and pretty consistently.

And his, his maintenance intake isn't going to trend down too much over time.  It also works on the other one, and where he could probably gain weight easier, you know, so it's his metabolisms  more kind of stuck in the middle, where Nico, more adaptive, like you increase his calories, he has to eat a lot of food to be able to gain weight.

But he also has to diet pretty aggressively to, to lose weight. So that's one thing. It just, it kind of depends. But I think in general, be conservative with it, especially if you don't have like a bodybuilding show that you're working towards. First and foremost, like we were talking about before, make sure you're adhering to your current intake before making any adjustments.

And then if it's been two, at least two weeks, look at possibly making an adjustment. 

Yeah, yeah, two weeks is a good time for, and I feel like a lot of what you're alluding to is just knowing yourself, which obviously becomes a lot easier if you have a coach who's seen people in all sorts of different situations, but you kind of have to take some time to understand which phenotype of those metabolisms you are.

Um, and the biggest thing I think that, that I would point out in addition there is, It's a lot different in my opinion and, um, what you're shooting for calorie deficit wide versus calorie surplus wise, because you can go as low as a deficit for maintenance of like 25 to 30 percent and safely ensure that you're probably still losing more fat, the more you're in a bigger deficit, as long as you're doing what it takes to preserve muscle, lifting heavy, eating enough protein.

And that's not the same with muscle gain where. Beyond like five to 10 percent beyond a five to 10 percent surplus, it's likely that any additional calories aren't going to muscle gain. Um, especially if you're more of like an intermediate or advanced lifter, and it's probably just going to fat gain. So you want to be a lot more careful about how far away you're straying from maintenance.

Uh, whether you're in a deficit, you can be a lot more strict and see better fat loss and that the same doesn't hold true for being in a surplus and, you know, you can't expect to eat 20%,  25 percent surplus and see more muscle gain.  

Yeah, that's a really good point. Muscle. If you're focusing on muscle growth, you're building, trying to gain weight, you're probably going to have to adjust your calories a lot less frequently than fat loss, because you don't need as much of a surplus compared to the deficit you'd need for, You know, fat loss.

So that's a good point. I think for recomposition That's also kind of the case if you're more at like kind of a maintenance recomp You probably won't need to make that many adjustments. So yeah, I think that answers that one. Don't you? 

Yeah. Yeah, and I think that the other relevant thing too is  to me lately i've kind of started to sort of equate the words bulky and reverse dieting where Ideally, you're just trying to slowly increase your calories and gain strength.

Maybe you gain a little bit of weight, but I don't really think, you know, again, unless you're just new to training and you're someone who wants to put on 10, 20, 30 pounds, there's probably not a necessity for a big surplus unless maybe you have five plus years of lifting experience under your belt where you really just need to push things to get stronger.

It's just kind of listening to your body  eating around that maintenance, maybe slightly above, but again, looking to the gym progress is the best way to know, okay, I'm building muscle and things are probably going in the right direction if that's the case. And that's where you see like a weight gain focused recomp where maybe you see a couple pounds go up on the scale, but if that can be mainly muscle, you might still see yourself getting leaner as you're gaining weight.

Yeah, that's a good point. And it's funny because now there's, like, people are always talking online, there's little trends and stuff with TikTok and whatnot, and you, you hear that, like, people are saying, like, bulking is, like, vaulted, which I don't even, vaulted, I guess it's, like, not a thing anymore, it shouldn't be a thing.

Um, And I think a lot of that is coming from like, there's, there's been more research coming out lately. There's a study that I don't know if you know about this one, Jake, the Eric Helms was a part of, and it was basically comparing like how much muscle you can grow at maintenance versus in a surplus.

And it was very similar. They built.  Very similar amounts of muscle at maintenance or a surplus, but the people that were in a surplus gained a lot more body fat. And it's pretty much linear with how much of a surplus you're in. So that's something to, to consider is you don't really need to gain that much weight.

Obviously, the newer you are, the more potential you have to, to build muscle. So you can gain a little bit quicker, but that's like the first year maybe. And then things are going to slow down pretty quickly. So, all  right, let's jump to this next one. Um, I'll pass one, this one to you, Jake. So this one is calculating macros calories.

I always get wildly different results. So how do you go about that? Jay calculating those. 

So the way I understand this is maybe the person is getting different, um, suggestions based on like different calculators online. So I'd say first and foremost, just looking at the calories, that's by far the most important thing.

Um, I'm someone who like maybe 10 percent or so of my clients are tracking carbs and fats specifically. It's because I feel like not that it's not useful, but it, maybe the juice isn't worth the squeeze and how. Delicate. You have to be with like lining up those numbers exactly. And just at least starting with protein and calories is going to make it a bit more simple.

And again, like going back to calories, any online calculator is not going to factor in your unique, like time you've spent in either a deficit or surplus. Like the, the metabolic health that you have in terms of, is your metabolism ramped up for someone who's, you know, like one 75 in my case, or is it really depleted or Um, so not knowing that it's going to kind of give you a generic number.

And it can't factor in that stuff that Kate was talking about. Like, are you more adaptive? Are you more rigid in terms of your metabolism? So it can only give you so much in terms of knowing what should your maintenance deficit surplus be. So the best thing to do is just track, you know, like we talked about our clients tracking weight on a weekly average basis.

If you're aiming for like a surplus deficit maintenance, whatever it is, I would just encourage someone to track. For a set period of time, like a couple of weeks. And if you're trying to find your maintenance calories, find out where you're, um, give or take about staying, um, on average at the same weight over a few week period and, uh, with a deficit, where can you be losing about a pound, maybe a little bit more per week.

And with a surplus, where can you be like slightly gaining, like maybe every couple of weeks you gain a pound or even a bit less than that, but that's the best way to dial in your calories. Once you find it on, um, an online calculator, cause those can be very  inaccurate depending on, you know, some specific  parts of your, of your situation.

Um, but then the macros again, like it's, it's great to, if, if you do want to have everything dialed in and you don't find it a problem to be like tracking all your calories or all your macros or other protein, carbs, and fats, it's great to bias, uh, like a large part of your extra calories after accounting for protein, um, two carbs.

So maybe you do like 20, To 30%, um, fat hits a gram of protein per pound of body weight. And then the rest of your calories can be, um, given over to, or dedicated to carbs to, you know, most improve your performance. That's, that's the most important macro, um, to improve performance. And obviously like there's. 

Uh, everybody probably knows the importance of protein and then fats are essential. So we want to make sure we're getting the minimum there.  

Yeah. Yep. I think that's a good point. I think people,  people stress too much about macros when they should really focus more on just, all right, getting very consistent with their calorie intake and protein intake, and I still have plenty of clients that will track all of their macros because I.

I think as long as you, you know, are hitting your calories and protein, like you're, you're gonna get very similar results compared to really dialing in all of the macros. Um, and most people are. you know, with, with our kind of way of life, our nutrition nowadays, like most people are getting plenty of carbs, they're getting plenty of fats.

And so you don't really have to worry about under eating some of those. I will have clients track those more if we're having issues, like from like a hunger perspective, cause maybe they're, maybe they're just eating like a real, like a lot of, um, fat and they need to, you know, fats really calorically dense.

And so they might need some more carbs in there to kind of just fill them up a little bit more, or, you know, maybe it's the other way around where they're eating a lot of carbs and very little fat and fat slows down digestion. So it can help you stay full for longer. So little things like that, I might use it.

Um, and then like having some clients that compete and stuff in a situation like that, you do, you're, you're going for every last little percent. And so it is worth, you know, dialing in the macros as much as possible because your carbs, like Jake said, will help your performance once you kind of have that baseline level of fat.

Um, which is, yeah, going to be around that, like 20, 30%. Um, I think the, I think the number, like based on your, your body weights, like 0. 25, um, grams per pound of your, your body weight. I think it's right around there. I would have to look back, but something like that. So for, for me,  probably like 50 grams is like, you know,  a good sweet spot.

That's like not overdoing it, but not underdoing it either. And then the rest, like carbs, you get more of the benefits. So kind of pushing more of those, um, more of your calories in, in that direction. But yeah, I don't think looking too much at like the online calculators makes a lot of sense. Cause they, they don't have, they're never going to be able to Tell you exactly like hey, this is your your maintenance intake This is how many calories you need to eat and your maintenance intake is different every single day if you go Shopping one day and you're walking around a lot.

You're gonna your maintenance intake is gonna be a lot higher that day So it's not just like oh every day is the exact same So get that kind of an educated estimate based on you know, maybe it's an online calculator It'll give you a good starting point most likely You But the only way to really know is to track your body weight and if your body weight is trending down over time Then you know, okay.

I'm in a deficit if it's staying about the same over time at least one to two weeks, then it's like, I'm right around maintenance. And if it's trending up over time, um, you want to give that a little longer, maybe two to two to three weeks of trending up. Then it's like, okay, I'm in a surplus, you know, but that's where like Jake said, tracking those weekly averages is super important.

Cause there's going to be fluctuations either way.  

Yeah. And there's obviously like good reasons to be tracking your fats and carbs and be trying to bias more carb intake. But at the same time, like if there's a pyramid of importance, one of the things that's like very foundational is flexibility and sustainability.

So like, if you figure out that you're minimum of fat is like 40 grams. And then you know that it's ideal to get the rest of, you know, get a ton of carbs in addition to that. But you find that you just have a relatively like moderate fat diet. You like some fattier protein sources. Those are more palatable.

You like some olive oil with this and that maybe avocado, you find your fats more at like 70, 80 grams. Like making that switch is not going to be a night and day difference again, unless you're someone who like. Needs to eke out like every percentage point possible in your, to your advantage. It's like thinking about what's most conducive to like my lifestyle, like the way, adapting the way you like to eat to your macros versus adopting like your macros and like applying that to, to what you're eating first and foremost, if it's not the way that you prefer to eat.

Yeah, a hundred percent. I think, yeah, I would say at least 90 percent of people  are going to be better off just focusing on calories and protein because they'll be able to enjoy their lives more, not stress over every little thing. And they're really not going to notice a difference in their progress because they're going to be getting plenty of carbs and fats unless they're aggressively dieting and 10 percent that like just want to do that.

Cause I do get clients. It's like, Hey, we don't need to track your carbs and fats, but they enjoy it. They like kind of having that structure of like, yeah, I do. 

Yeah. 

So there's those people, but like 90%, I would say definitely don't need to, they'd probably be better off just doing calories and protein. So.

One other thing. 

Oh yeah. Just one last thing to add is like something I've heard before. Um, that's a good rule of thumb is like calories control your weights, protein amount kind of controls how you look. And obviously like this isn't like an exact science, but more or less calories or weight protein is how you look, you know, you want me to build that body composition, you know, get stronger, add muscle.

And then the types of food you're eating beyond that. Whether it be like, um, carbs and fats and like what kind of carbs and fats you're eating more so have to do with how you feel. So, you know, you could, in theory, just eat like protein shakes and candy and hit your macros and see gains, but you're gonna feel like crap.

You're not going to perform well. So thinking about like how to. mix in healthy fats, complex carbs, fruits and vegetables, stuff of that nature is kind of in that third realm of like how you feel and wanting to like use those calories to eat. Again, we talked about the 80, 20 principle earlier, eat a lot of whole natural foods are going to make you just feel your best to make your body operate at its best.

I  

agree that. Yeah, that's a good point. I think if more people, uh, Took their focus from the exact right ratio of macros and put it on calories, protein, eating whole foods, some fruits and veggies, like that solves pretty much all the problems that they would run into. So, yeah, I agree. 

So, next thing here is, uh, should you incorporate either running or jogging, or insert probably any form of cardio here, or walking to increase fat loss? 

Yeah, this is a, this is a good one. I had to do a little, like, um, Googling to get like the average, you know, calories burned from running versus walking because I knew running was like a little bit higher and walking is a little bit lower, um, but it depends on so many things. So the answer I got was running burns approximately 100 to 120 calories per hour.

mile for an average person, but it depends on weight and pace and all that stuff. But let's just say a hundred calories walking burns about 60 to 80 calories per mile, depending on speed, body weight, all that stuff. So let's say 70 calories. So a hundred versus 70 calories, you know, that's a pretty like. I don't know for a mile.

It's not a huge difference, but if you're walking or running a ton it adds up  But I don't think you should be You need to take so many more things into consideration with this like for me personally walking Is so much more sustainable. I enjoy it more. It's less fatiguing. So I'm going to lean more towards walking.

Whereas some people, they just love running and regardless of like the calories burned or the health benefits, like they should just do it because they, they love it. You get outside. You're active, like that's amazing. So I think the number one thing is like, what can you adhere to? Because it's not going to be a huge difference.

Just stay active overall, whether it's walking, running, playing a sport, whatever it is. Um, but consider like, you know, also there's, you know, kind of the fatigue component. Like if you're trying to be really serious about you're lifting and you want to build. A lot of muscle, you know, especially in your lower body, like running might not be the best route because it is more  fatiguing.

It's higher impact, harder on your joints and things like that. We're walking. You're not going to get much of that. So even though you're burning fewer calories, you know, walking's probably going to be better. So there, I don't think there's really a right answer. I think a good kind of middle ground is like, if you are worried about, you know, You know, the fatigue and stuff that might come with running or if it hurts your joints, um, but you want to burn calories quicker because you're short on time or something, that's where it may be doing like the elliptical or stationary bike could be helpful because.

It's, it's easier on your joints, but then you're inside and you're not getting out and getting the fresh air and stuff. So that's why I don't like that form of cardio as much. So yeah, it just depends like look at how limited you are on time and if it's worth the trade off to, you know, burn a little bit fewer calories through going out for a nice little stroll outside getting some fresh air.

Yeah. Yeah. I'd agree with that. I don't really think that running is worth the trade off if you're going to have to like forge yourself to do it. Like I sometimes enjoy running. I think running is good for cardio health and it's good just because some people enjoy it. That's why like sometimes I'll do it or included in clients plans, but it's very, very, very rare that I'll add cardio to someone's plan to help them see more fat loss.

More often than not, we're focusing with all of our clients on step count.  Walking obviously, like Kate said, it's so much more sustainable, you know, a run is like a whole exercise activity versus walking is throughout your entire day. You can walk, you know, you, you get extra steps, go into the store and, you know, you can do little things like parking far away, you can go on more like five to 10 minute walks a day.

You can walk around more at the gym during your workout. You know, there's so many ways to fit walking in and work on increasing your step count as just a part of your daily. Lifestyle versus running again is like something you have to add and compensate for that fatigue component too. Like if you're going to the gym and you're lifting hard, you're trying to maximize hypertrophy or lifting hard three, four, five days a week.

Like it's not exactly ideal to add something else on top of that. That's fatiguing that your body has to recover from. And walking is also less likely to than running to be. Um, start to be compensated for. Um, typically running  it's, it's something maybe you can use for like a fat loss sprint. Like if you need to get X amount of like last few pounds off, but the body's very efficient with cardio, especially when compared to weightlifting where.

That's they're both exercise, right? But weightlifting is having, has a lot more like downstream advantages where you're building muscle, your body's burning more calories for that reason, your body's building calorie or burning calories afterwards on its own versus cardio is so transactional. It's like you go, you burn 200 calories and that's it.

So yeah, those are just a few reasons I would definitely recommend walking and just monitoring your step count more than anything. Um, rather than, um, Yeah,  

I think a few things with that is like the time component is something that I have, like, I used to hardly ever program cardio. Um, but coming back to like adherence being the most important thing, like what is sustainable and doable for somebody.

if they're just really struggling hitting the amount of steps that they need to, to put them in a deficit without having to really decrease their calories to a very low point, then they just, if they don't have the time to get those extra walks in and stuff, then it's like, okay, we kind of have two, two routes here.

I guess three, like we either decrease calories, but say that's kind of not an option right now. Or, you know, we increase energy expenditure through, increasing their step count or increase energy expenditure through increasing their cardio. Um, and so a lot of times if we get to that point, I just bring that up to the client of like, Hey, what, what do you see as more doable right now?

Like tech taking an extra, you know, 20 minutes a day to, you know, go on this extra walk or doing like a quick, you know, 10 minute cardio session after each workout, you know, and sometimes it's a time thing where it's like, Hey, just, the cardio is going to be easier to adhere to. And then like the, you know, you can't overlook the health benefits of cardio.

I do think you get a good portion of that through being active in general, getting your steps in and lifting you get, obviously, you know, your heart rate increases from that. And if you want like kind of the best of both worlds throw in like a lot of Supersets in your program where you're like antagonistic supersets where you're like allowing one muscle group to rest while you're training the opposing or just a completely different muscle group and your heart rate kind of stays elevated and you're not going to sacrifice performance that much and be able to squeeze in more volume in the same amount of time.

So those are a few afterthoughts there. 

Yeah. Yeah. It just comes down to priorities. Like if someone is happy with their, their at body composition wise, and it's like, what's like a general workout program you'd recommend I again, like cardio, there's a good reasons, heart health wise to throw that in there.

But when people come to us, right. And their main goal is I want to maximize hypertrophy in the least amount of time possible is, is most people, you know, you want to make sure that the workout component is mostly focused on. What's going to change body composition, which mostly comes down to, uh, the weightlifting workouts, but, but yeah, I definitely agree on sometimes if someone just has a super busy life, you know, they're have a job where like they drive around from location to location or something like that.

They can't fit in like walks throughout the day. Program, some cardio could be, uh, could be crucial for someone like that. But  at the same time, a lot of people could do something like you have a walking, uh, desk, uh, uh, treadmill at your desk, doing something like that to get those extra steps, or even just like, you know, doing that habit stacking of five minute walk after every meal, you know, a lot of times people just kind of underestimate how much they can do with so little.

Um, so yeah, there's, there's definitely evidence for, for both sides.  

For sure. All right, let's move on to the next one here.  Um, did you read out the last one or did I? I can't remember. 

Um, I asked you the number four. 

Okay, okay. All right, so this one, number five. How do I re comp after doing everything wrong the first time by eating 1200 calories plus doing tons of cardio? 

Um, I thought that I would kind of combine this one with number seven, which is basically asking whether you should lose fat or build muscle first. And this person out of the context of they're about 15 pounds over their ideal weights. Cause a lot of times these people are in the same boat where. You know, someone might be in this position where they're really low calories.

They're doing a lot of cardio, but they still want to lose weight. They're still not at that body composition that they're, that they're happy with. And this is the type of person that is best set up for a reverse diet. Like their body's kind of begging for a reverse diet at this point. And the good news is more often than not.

I would say nine times out of 10, like I could get a person like this to see recap in the form of gaining weight. Like we talked about a few minutes ago, uh, where you're gaining weights, uh, you're gaining muscle. And at the same time, like you're, you're probably keeping your body fat around the same, but that's resulting in still a leaner physique.

If you're gaining weight through muscle and keeping your body fat or keeping yeah, your, your body fat, the same, that's going to be a lower body fat percentage. Um, if you're.  Uh, I think this person was a, a man, but you know, man or woman, 1200 calories is pretty low,  but it's low enough again that I think that I, I feel almost sure without even seeing this person that they would respond really well to a reverse diet and be able to gain muscle well, not adding any, any body fat or even becoming leaner. 

Yeah. So I went in and, and read, cause she said, she asked this question on Instagram and the little box. And then she said like more com or more explanation in the DM. And I just went and read that before this and it helped to get a little bit more, more context. But I think you're. Yeah, you're spot on with this.

She, um, had, yeah, done kind of an aggressive diet. It sounds like there wasn't really any lifting in place when she, you know, was doing like the 1200 calorie diet, lots of cardio. Um, and so she lost a bunch of weight, which, yeah, that's, that's great. But she mentioned like, she got down to that  place and, you know, she just felt like, Like she was still, she wasn't toned, you know, like kind of the typical, like skinny fat physique.

She said, dude, she listened to the skinny fat podcast that we have. And, um, she's like, I, that's exactly where I am. So I think she's in a, I think mentally this is a tough place to be in because it's like, you made this progress, you lost the weight, but then now you're realizing, Oh, I didn't do it in like the best way possible, but also understanding, that's how pretty much everyone starts in fitness.

I don't know. I don't know anyone that has got into fitness and done things perfectly right off the bat. Like whether it's a lot of dudes do like the dirty bulk and they just add a bunch of fat and like, yeah, some muscle, but they way overdo it. And a lot of women, it's kind of the other side where they overdo the cardio and the under eating.

And of course it happens, you know, either way. But I think just kind of giving yourself like cutting, cutting yourself some slack that like, it's okay. It's, it's normal. You didn't do, you didn't cause any like permanent damage from that. There's, there's studies coming out, like the Minnesota starvation experiment is a pretty wild study where they, Basically starved people like the verge of starvation and they tested their metabolisms at the lowest point and after 12 weeks They they tested them again after eating just kind of a normal amount of food and of course regaining some weight But they didn't like  go crazy and gain a bunch of weight and their metabolisms were pretty much back to normal after 12 weeks.

So you didn't cause like permanent damage, but it does need to be something that you address in order to get your metabolism to up regulate a little bit more. And the only way that's going to happen is through eating more food and probably doing. Less cardio and doing it strategically where it's not just eat a bunch of extra food and stop doing cardio You kind of need to taper both of them to allow your body to adapt over time And like jake said this is where like you you can build muscle and you can still see  Some recomposition because you add more lean tissue.

You're, you're building muscle and keeping body fat right about the same If you're gaining at a slower pace, your body is recovering and that's decreasing your body fat percentage So that's yeah, I think with the We can touch on number seven a little bit more too, but that's kind of my, my thoughts on number five.

Do you have anything else there? 

Yeah, I think this is where the conversation between weight loss and fat loss becomes most relevant because people, a lot of times come to us for coaching, talking about weight loss and saying that they want weight loss, but more than anything, people want fat loss. And a lot of times people One like negative thing that I sometimes see is people get very attached to like a certain weights.

Like I want to be 170  and maybe that's not the best weight for your body to be at to be lean and have a healthy metabolism. So again, it's, it's about, you know, we'll talk a lot about like ideal body fat percentage or like the ideal way that you want to look versus again, sometimes people come to us with this like idea in their head of a weight they want to be.

And it's just not the most appropriate place for their body to be. So, you know, when you're targeting fat loss, again, that comes down to being strategic with your body composition, how to put on some muscle in the right places and use the muscle to your metabolic advantage and be able to, to eat more. It kind of reminds me of some of the things we were talking about with these first two questions about when someone's at a weight loss plateau, what to do.

As a coach, like if I see someone that's, you know, for a man is like sub 15, 1600 calories, or a woman is like sub 12 or 1300 calories. It's hard to ever want to push someone into a further fat loss phase just because you have so little wiggle room to work with. And so again, that's where you are probably best off working on your metabolic health, just meaning trying to up your metabolism, which a big part of that is just enhancing muscle growth.

And again, just like thinking my ideal physique might not. Look exactly weight wise on the scale. Um, what I think it does and being okay with that, which obviously is no easy thing, but you know, you can work through with a coach or on your own as well. 

Yeah, for sure. And I think the, like, Oh, I'm going to DM her and give her some kind of more personal stuff here.

Cause there's a little, a little more context, but I think the big three things right now is like,  start eating some more food. Don't go crazy with it, but kind of the reverse diet approach. Like if you're at 1200 calories, I wouldn't just go up to like 1250 calories. I'd probably go up to at least 13, 1400 calories for a week or two, you know, cause that's still helping your body.

Like you're, you're giving your body more. energy and then kind of creep up from there, but you don't want to overdo it to where you do regain a bunch of weight. And then same thing with cardio. If you're doing, you know, an hour a day of cardio, maybe you come back to like 45 minutes a day for a week and then 30 minutes and slowly kind of ease out of that.

And then the, the other huge thing is,  really emphasize like the lifting right now because you're, you're in a, the positive of this is you're in a prime position to see some recomposition as you reverse diet out of this, because lifting is kind of a newer stimulus to this person. It sounds like. And so that's the best time to be able to build muscle.

And so even if you're gaining weight, you're still making body composition improvements. So that's kind of the, the positive. Okay.  

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, just to kind of speak on the metabolism a little bit more too, it's like someone might worry, or I could see this person having a concern of like, if I go up a couple hundred calories, is that just going to mean my body is going to add fat and know what happens is again, like where to me, metabolism is kind of relative just in the sense that, or like what to do, I suppose, with like gaining or losing is relative.

I want to see where your calories are at because. The metabolism tends to want to be healthy. And what I mean by that is like, it doesn't, you know, depending, this kind of goes back to the adaptive versus rigid metabolism, but everybody's metabolism has the ability to downregulate. So that person who's in a deficit for a really long period of time, their metabolism is slowed because the body.

Essentially it's fighting starvation. We don't want to, you know, the body still has those kind of, um, instincts to fight starvation. So when you're increasing your calories from a really low rate, it's not like you're just going to pile on fat. You're just kind of giving your body or your metabolism permission to kind of just start working at a little bit faster rate.

You're burning more calories, you know, anything that you've, you know, people have heard of go into like that total daily energy expenditure. You're, you're moving a bit more. Um, just all these different processes in your body are. Being for lack of a better word like sped up a little bit and you're just increasing your metabolism So it's not like you have to worry about this sudden like influx of fat gain We're like you you know something you pointed to a few minutes ago is like you don't like break your metabolism You don't do permanent damage.

Yeah. Yeah, and understanding that your metabolism is more of like a range than just one set Yeah, like it you  You can push kind of towards the top end of this metabolism range and or your maintenance range and you're not going to be gaining weight, but you're kind of inching in that direction. And so like if you, you know, maintain your weight on 1200 calories, it's probably like, you know, 11 to 1300 calories or so is like your maintenance range.

So you can push up to 1300 and not gain weight. Over time, 1300 is your new true, you know, maintenance average. And then you can go up to 1400 and not gain weight. So I think kind of understanding that that can help.  Um,  all right, let's pop on to, or pop into number six here. We have a couple more that I think we can get through these pretty quickly.

Yeah. So question was, if I lose weight after I stopped going to the gym, am I most likely to be losing fats or muscle? 

Yeah, this is an interesting question. This is from one of my, uh, family members, um, which is fun. Shout out to you if you're listening to this. Um, so this is, I kind of know the context of this situation.

The, the main thing generally is like, okay, where were you at Before, you know, you stopped lifting. Cause if you're a 250 pound bodybuilder, super jacked, you stop lifting. Um, probably most of the weight that you're going to be losing is muscle. But if you're 300 pounds and overweight, not a ton of muscle, like. 

you're probably going to be losing a lot of fat. So I think kind of considering like how much of this weight is, you know, fat versus muscle is going to influence that. Um, but either way, it's probably going to be a little bit of both, unfortunately. So if like you're, you have some muscle, you have some fat, if you're not lifting,  And you're losing weight, you're probably going to lose a little bit of both.

You can, you know, help kind of combat that by keeping your protein high, you know, just kind of staying active in general. But the number one thing is like, even I think just understanding how little it takes to maintain muscle. Unless you're losing weight like super quickly, like if you just did even one workout a week of like just doing as many push ups as you can, like some pull ups or, you know, basic things from home, like that can help a ton with maintaining muscle.

It really doesn't take that much. So I think just probably not overwhelming yourself with like, all right, I got to get Going back to the gym and go at least four days a week or five days a week to make progress. Just do like, do some pushups at home and that's going to, it's going to help. And it's better than nothing for sure.

Yeah. There's, there's a few like pieces of research or like studies that I kind of know by heart, not like the specifics exactly, but just kind of like what they prove. And there's evidence out there that kind of points to what it takes to  Keep muscle, maintain muscle that you've built is probably about a third to a fifth of the volume that it takes to build it.

So that's where, you know, just like shining some more light on or like adding to Kate's point about it, it doesn't take, if you're, if you went and built 20 pounds of muscle, you know, going hard in the gym four days a week, it doesn't mean you have to keep that up to not like see any muscle loss. So that I think is something that really helps kind of ease people's minds in that sense. 

Yeah, I agree. And I think also just kind of considering like,  cause I know the context of this person's life and they're, they got three kids that are all under the age of three. So it's, or four I think, but it's kind of insane. So like also just considering like what You kind of have chapters of your life, you know, where things are more of a focus than others and like giving yourself, cut yourself some slack of like, okay, this is like, there's a lot going on, but also there's a fine line between that.

And then kind of using excuses of like, Oh, I'm so busy. Like I can't make it to the gym. Cause like you could squeeze in some, some home workouts, whatever it is, but you know, don't be too hard on yourself. Um, there's something else I was going to say with, you know, With that, but I'll, maybe I'll come back to it.

Do you have any other thoughts? 

Conversation as like, you're working against yourself. If you're trying to see fat loss during the holiday season, you're, you're, you're probably working against yourself. If you're like really still super obsessed with like going hard in the gym and gaining muscle. When you have like three young kids again, just kind of speaks to, there's seasons of the year, there's seasons of life, you know, you got to kind of break things up and look at the context.

But the biggest thing that I'm thinking of here is just trying not to give into that all or nothing mentality. Cause that can be really easy. You know, like I'm going to the gym four or five days a week. I'm hitting all my macros or I'm not paying any attention to what I eat and I'm not going to the gym at all.

Like there's plenty of middle ground between those two things.  

Absolutely. So I think, yeah, just start small, do something from home and that's going to be enough to like maintain, you know, a good, if a good portion, if not all of the muscle you have built.  All right. Number seven.  Yeah. We kind of read through the past year to 

kind of.

Probably will kind of be retractions of stuff we've already talked about, but yeah. 

So this, yeah, this was the one that we, we touched on a little bit. What's first lose fat or build muscle if 15 pounds over ideal weight. So you kind of touched on this. Do you have anything else really to add with this  specific question?

Yeah. Again, I think just that ideal weight can be, there's plenty of validity to that. We certainly talk with clients about that and make that a focus and ask questions about that. But at the end of the day, like there's, there's not an ideal weight for everyone. There's probably like an ideal body fat percentage, which, you know, might look different from what you think your ideal weight is. 

just paying attention to that. Um, and again, like I'd probably look at someone's metabolism and this state too. Like the, one of the things I really love doing with reverse diet with clients, um, especially if they're reverse dieting and there's someone who have like battled with fat loss phases and like losing as much fat as they want to have been successful in calorie deficits in the past is if you can reverse diet to the point where.

Someone's always almost going like, wow, this is a lot of food. I kind of am at like the higher range of what I even really like to consume in terms of calorie wise. It feels like a lot of food. And that's the, that's a great place to get people again, if they've struggled with fat loss, cause then you can kind of switch gears, switch into like a 25, 30 percent deficit.

And it's almost like, it's welcome that you're eating less calories because you've been on the high range for so long. Um, and so that's an example of like. What, uh, you might do with someone, um, if they are over their ideal weights and  they've done the work on their metabolism or they have a healthy metabolism versus, you know, the person in the like example from, from number five, like they, if you're really low calorie and you're, you're bumping up against,  I'll plateau because you have to eat  1300 calories a day to lose weight.

Then that's where it'd probably be good to go in the opposite direction.  

Yeah. Yeah. I think it, it, it comes down to the context of what has happened before this. Like if this person's lost a hundred pounds and they have 15 more to go, and like, it's just like, they've hit Stand still it's like just you know, it might be worth just taking a break So you don't because if you push like just for this last 15 pounds you could  Throw something off to where it's like it it causes you to rebound afterwards and you gain 50 pounds afterwards So just kind of being cautious of like i've made it this far I can wait You know a couple months to just kind of chill right here build up some more muscle, like thinking about the progress that you can make.

That's not just that last 15 pounds. I can get stronger. I can build muscle. I can, you know, have more food flexibility and enjoy that side of my life more. And then in a couple months, like 15 pounds, I can give it, um, you know, two or three months and lose that last 15 pounds. And then it's going to be so much easier to sustain that in the long run.

But if it's like they, they just started and like, they're not really doing much nutrition wise, they're not, you know,  lifting, you know, then you, you could like do a really impressive recomp and stay the same weight, lose 15 pounds of body fat and, you know, building 15 pounds, pounds of muscles a lot. But that could happen over the course of, you know, six months to a year if you're brand new to lifting.

So it just, it depends. Cause I don't, yeah, I don't really have like a solid answer. For this, just kind of consider like, all right, what's the long term goal and what's going to make sense, maybe a slight deficit to lose the 15 pounds over the course of six months and building some muscle. Um, but if, if this person wants more kind of like specific advice, cause I would want more context, they can reach out on Instagram and we can help there for sure.

Yeah, a lot of times I'll have a client that comes my way, and they'll be someone who, like, has never really monitored what they've eaten, has never really been in a consistent workout routine, and to me, like, that's a great time to be like, let's just kind of change your diet to where you're eating two, three, four square meals a day, you're reaching for healthier foods, you're eating, you know, Protein rich foods and S and that can give someone so much.

And I'm saying like, just kind of do what feels natural and get stronger in the gym and we'll kind of see what happens with your body weight. But that's a good example of a person where I could see him gaining a couple pounds, maybe I could see them losing a couple pounds, but it's just more about.

Starting, uh, getting into the habit of healthy eating. And again, like letting the gym kind of drive what you're doing with your food, uh, in terms of you're getting stronger, you know, your body, you're feeding your body protein. You're seeing those changes and not really doing anything beyond that. And kind of seeing what happens.

Yeah, for sure. 

Um, so last one here, I'll pass over to Cade question about TDE calories. Should I be eating at TDE calories for a recomp or stay in a deficit?  

So for anyone that doesn't, doesn't know, TDEE is total daily energy expenditure. So it's, it's essentially the same thing as your metabolism. How many calories you're burning in a day activity, everything included.

Um, and this is similar to the, the. Previous question. Like, it just depends on, on so many things. Um, if you're, you know, at a good, you know, healthy weight, like let's say you're a guy, you're 175 pounds or like five, 10, whatever, and you just want to like recomp and stay at one 75, um, then you could just, you know, stay right at maintenance and you could kind of recomp Over time, unless you've been like lifting for a long time and it's just not gonna be doable to do that.

But if you are 200 pounds and you're five eight and you probably do need to get down closer to let's say 1 70, 1 75 to be at like a, the body composition that you would like, then you're probably gonna have to be in some form of a deficit. And he said, or stay in a deficit. So I'm not sure. It sounds like he has been.

In a deficit. So yeah, it just, it's hard to say 

like, you know, the things we've mentioned previously, just in terms of how many, um, contextualize how much it relates to just your specific context, kind of like you alluded to. 

Yeah. Yeah. Cause there's different routes you can go here. So I'll also message this person just to get a little more context and offer them some advice.

But do you have anything else to add on? No, 

I think that was hopefully a lot of useful information for people. 

Yeah, I agree. There's a little bit longer than we anticipated, but I think it's, it's perfect, you know, right about an hour, but yeah, it was a lot of fun. Jake is going to be coming back on podcasts for more Q and A's and different things, uh, consistently.

We had, I think it was about this time last year, we had. Um, a couple of good episodes together. So been missing Jake coming on the podcast. So he'll be back on soon, but appreciate you guys for listening. And yeah, I appreciate you coming on Jake.