Confronting Porn Addiction with Frank Rich

Episode 142: Confronting Porn Addiction with Frank Rich

In episode 142 of the Sober Vibes podcast, Courtney Andersen welcomes Frank Rich to the show to discuss porn addiction. Frank shares his story of overcoming porn addiction and shares tips to help you overcome it. 

What you will learn in this episode:

• Frank's story 
• Tips to overcome porn addiction 
• Underlying dangers of porn 
• What porn addiction recovery looks like

Frank Rich is a former bodybuilder entrepreneur, men’s health coach, and the host of The Super Human Life Podcast. He is also the founder and the CEO of Rebuilt Recovery, a company based on a growth-centric holistic approach to addiction recovery. Rebuilt Recovery provides fitness training for men going through recovery as well as one-to-one coaching for men aiming to break free from porn addiction.

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Transcript

Courtney : 0:31

Hey, welcome to the Sobver Vibes podcast. I am your host and sober coach, Courtney Anderson. You are listening to episode 142. I have an awesome conversation today. I want, though, to put a little trigger warning in here, because we do get into the conversation of breaking free of porn addiction and how to overcome it Within that talk of what we're going to talk about today, with my awesome guest, Frank Rich, who is an entrepreneur, and he is the host of the superhuman life podcast as well as the CEO of Rebuilt Recovery, a company based on growth-centric, holistic approach to addiction recovery. Rebuilt Recovery provides fitness training for men going through recovery, as well as one-on-one coaching for men aiming to break free from porn addiction. Within this conversation this is where I want to say this trigger warning we start talking about sex trafficking and get into the evil that is within the porn industry. I just want to put that trigger warning out there for you. What Frank shared with me was very eye-opening, and especially, too if you've never been into porn, if that's not your thing, then to hearing it from someone's point of view of their addiction and the darkness of that whole industry. It is very eye-opening. Great conversation, though. I encourage you to listen to it. Of course, if there's anything triggering that comes up, just turn it off and that is no problem. Please enjoy today's episode. If you haven't yet, please rate, review and subscribe to the show. Make sure to check out all of our sponsors that we have for the month of August in the Silver Vibes podcast and also, too.

Courtney : 2:32

Next Tuesday, my first published book, Silver Vibes A Guide to Thriving in your First Three Months Without Alcohol, will be available. If you haven't preordered your book yet, make sure to go in the link in the show notes or go to my website, CourtneyRecoveredcom. You can order your book from all of the outlets where books are sold. If not, just go to Amazon, our Barnes Noble, and just type in Silver Vibes A Guide to Thriving in your First Three Months Without Alcohol and grab your copy. It's a good one.

Courtney : 3:09

I put a lot of love, loving and support into this book to help you get through those first three months. Also, too I have said it before my editor told me that from a person who does not have a problem with alcohol, it helped her really understand other people's. You know the problem. So if you are listening to this because you are supporting a loved one who is going through addiction to alcohol or in sobriety. Pick yourself up a copy too, and just to help you understand more and more of this process. All right, Enjoy the show. Hey, Frank, welcome to the Silver Vibes podcast. I'm so happy to have you here today.

Frank : 3:52

Hey, courtney, grateful to be here. Thank you.

Courtney : 3:54

So this is a different topic from what has been discussed so far on this podcast for seasons and, as I said to you in our pre-meaning, this topic of conversation fascinates me and this addiction fascinates me, so why don't you tell us your story and how you broke free of porn addiction?

Frank : 4:22

Yeah, well, thank you, courtney, and really, really excited about where we're gonna go here today. So I guess, probably to start, so, yeah, I mean I broke free from what was a 20 plus year porn addiction on February 14th of 2019. And I say 20 plus years because, you know, my first introduction to pornography was around the age of six. You know it was not on the internet, because I am a 39 year old man and when I was six years old the internet didn't exist. But I did stumble across at the time what was a very hardcore magazine. It wasn't, you know, your kind of lifestyle playboy magazine, like it was, like it was the hardcore stuff. So, as a six year old boy, you know it really was something I wasn't ready, prepared or equipped to handle right. You know it definitely presented a level of curiosity of what is this thing and for me it kind of started down a lifetime of trying to figure out how I could get my hands on it.

Frank : 5:21

So, you know, anybody that kind of grew up in the 80s and 90s as a boy probably remembers, like you know, going to, you know, a 7-Eleven or a convenience store and like they used to have these like literally, like sometimes like access to them and we would steal them and then we would take them out into you know the woods. We had forts built up and you know, sometimes to be lucky enough to not even have to steal it, it's like somebody else would have left one out there in the woods for you. And then I can remember around 15 or 16, I think that's when we got the internet at our home. You know the dial up to be.

Courtney : 5:53

Oh my God, yes, the chat rooms. Yeah, so yeah.

Frank : 5:56

Somebody picks up the phone and knocks you off like I'm on the internet yeah, the thing you're screaming through the house and honestly, courtney, it was probably an hour of me being on the internet for me to find it. You know started sharing photos and files through those chat rooms, finding them, you know, download, you know would take an hour to download an image and you know you'd almost be done and completed by the time the image fully was downloaded. Right, it really became a big problem in my early 20s. So I was working in the wireless industry, so I was an early adopter of a BlackBerry device which, for the younger audience, the BlackBerry, was the iPhone before the iPhone.

Frank : 6:33

Yeah, I loved my BlackBerry, yeah, so yeah, I mean, I can remember the first color screen BlackBerry, you know. And here you go. Right now I have high speed internet in my pocket 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and that's somebody that you know was a regional sales manager. So I spent a lot of time on the road. I was all in different mall locations, you know. By that point it had gotten so bad that I would sometimes take breaks like a smoker and I would go into the restroom in like a Macy's or Nordstrom where they had these very private kind of you know restrooms, and I would be watching porn and masturbating like in a public restroom. You know, at the time I don't really remember looking at it as like, yeah, I'm addicted to it. I'm like there's probably something wrong with the way that I'm doing it, but every guy watches porn, right, you know.

Frank : 7:22

I'm kind of their quoting this for the audience that's listening to it. So I think I didn't really look at it as a major, major problem until it started to affect me sexually, so probably in my late 20s. So I was a competitive bodybuilder, so I was very healthy. You know, I was somebody that took a lot of pride in my health, nutrition. But as a 20, late 20, early 30 year old man like I started having some issues performing in the bedroom. And that's when I was like, okay, well, this shouldn't be the case, right, I shouldn't be, I shouldn't need to watch pornography in order to get off, when I have beautiful women that are willing to sleep with me. But at the time, once again, courtney, like I didn't really begin to address it. I did whatever I could to kind of mask the problem. So, if it was, I'll take these supplements, I'll take these drugs that are going to allow me to perform. That's what I was going to do. And then in and out of relationships, you know, girls would catch it and I'd be like, yeah, it's no big deal this, and that I'm going to stop watching it. I, you know, I'd go a month or two without it and then instantly turn back to it, it would have been 2018 when it really it really shook me, and I think it started with hearing a conversation on a podcast you know you and I were talking about before, before you hit record how, over the last few years, like this, has been a conversation that has been really gone a little bit more mainstream and it seems to be a topic that people are understanding more and are raising awareness around it.

Frank : 8:54

But in 2018, I heard a podcast with an author of a book. The book is called Surfing for God. The author is Michael John Cusick and in the podcast, was hosted by a great mentor of mine and for me, Courtney, this was the first time in my life I heard two grown men really talk about their struggles with pornography and how it impacted their lives, their relationships, their marriages. So I was in a relationship. I'm not married, I'm single at the moment but the time hearing how it impacted relationships, marriages, kids, how one guy led them to escorts and prostitutes and sleeping with strippers and all these things, I was like, wow, like this thing is really, really serious, like, am I addicted? Is what I kind of started to ask myself.

Frank : 9:40

So at that point, with somebody that's like science, likes research. I started to kind of dive into like the research. I would just go on YouTube, I'd look up the TED Talks, I'd see what I could get my hands on, and I began to understand like there is a clear impact that is having on my brain. So I began to kind of look back at my life. Wow, well, was some of the social anxiety that I dealt with? Was that rooted in the pornography? Addiction? Was some of the darkness and the depression I was struggling with? How was that tied to it? The insecurities within myself, how I looked at judging myself versus other people. How was that connected to the dots here? And then I was to understood the sexual issues and then also how I looked and treated women. I'm said, okay, so this is a major issue that I'm dealing with. And then my life really began to fall apart towards the end of 2018. So I've been a business owner, entrepreneur, for about a decade about a decade.

Frank : 10:31

I started my first company in 2013 and we had a fair bit of financial success there. You know did a few million dollars in sales in a short few years. But at that point you know 2018, things were going well financially. The business was kind of booming and probably was spending more time throughout the day watching porn than I was actually on the business. So slowly I began to see things fall apart on the business side of things.

Frank : 10:58

I'd also, at this point, transitioned into the online fitness coaching space but, I, couldn't get anything off the ground, like my creative juices just weren't there, like I couldn't seem to get anything out in terms of, like, creating good content, writing good articles, creating good programs. So I reached this breaking point and, obviously, my relationship. At that point I was living with somebody, but we were basically roommates that kind of high-fived each other in the hallway as we passed each other. So few key pivotal moments happened towards the end of 2018. One of them finding my faith. So I didn't grow up with any faith or really any religious backing, but through a series of strong relationships, I began to realize, like that there's something beyond myself, out there in the world, that is really driving all of this. So I really I accepted Christ in late 2000 and in 18 October 22nd was actually the date and with that I began to really evaluate my life, what I was doing, how I was living, who was I? Was I living with integrity or was I just a fraud? Was I presenting one version of myself to the world while living really a separate and secret life? So February so four months later, february of 2019, it all kind of came crashing together. So I'd done the research, I understood all the impacts and effects. I was now trying to begin to live out like a good Christian life, right, and I was sitting in a car with somebody who had a lot of respect for, so good friend of mine.

Frank : 12:33

Zach is a former Marine, somebody that I hold a lot of respect for, someone I spent a fair bit of time with, and we were just having a conversation one day after a workout and Zach starts sharing with me how he was managing a porn addiction that he was struggling with through Wim Hof breathing exercises. And it wasn't prompted, it wasn't like I'd asked him about any things, literally just started to share this with me and I kind of second guess him. I'm like what did you just say? Like a porn addiction? He's like, yeah, bro, you have no idea how bad it really was in my life. And I saw that, courtney, as a sign from God or really an opportunity for me for the first time to talk about what I was going through.

Frank : 13:12

So I opened up to Zach there in the car, which was the first person I ever spoke about this with in my life, and I shared with him how it'd been a major problem with me for over 20 years, how I really saw the impact it was having on my life, and two key, pivotal moments came out of that conversation. Number one I promised Zach that I was done with it. I said I don't know why this happened here today, but I feel like this is a sign that I need to begin to make some changes. So I'm promising you, zach, that I'm gonna do everything within my power to get this out of my life. I need two things, though, to come out of this conversation. Number one will you be there for me, whatever accountability looks like? Can you play that role? Can you play that position for me? And he kind of put his arm on my shoulder and he was like absolutely brother, anything you need, because he had already kind of had some success in his own life with it.

Frank : 13:58

And the second thing I said is I need to go home and tell Stephanie. He's like I'm sure about that. Stephanie was my girlfriend at the time. He's like I'm sure about that. I said, well, if I don't do it for her, if I don't do it for us, then why am I doing this? So, although we had become roommates, we at the time, I thought, had a potential future together.

Frank : 14:15

Like she, was the first woman that I saw potential future, potential family, potential kids together. I said if I can't have this conversation with her, then I'm never gonna succeed in doing this. So the following morning I walked into the bedroom as Stephanie was getting ready and I had a laptop underneath my arm. So this was a laptop that I kept stored away in a closet because it's been caught so many times before. I'm like. I'm not gonna do it on my phone.

Frank : 14:39

I'm gonna do it on my main working computer. I'm gonna have a separate device. Clear sign of addiction. Right, you're doing things making sure that they're being hidden. Yeah, you were closeted. Yeah, exactly.

Courtney : 14:50

Literally, it's literally closeted, yeah Right.

Frank : 14:52

So I walked into the room as she was getting ready and she kind of looks like what's the laptop for? And I said, just listen, I have a couple of things I want to share with you Now. It was no secret to her that I watched porn, because I had asked her if she would watch it with me to see how I could kind of push things around there. But I told her like I don't think you understand how bad this thing really really is. So we had this deep conversation probably went on for 15 or 20 minutes or so. We're both kind of breaking down, but I promise and guarantee to her, just like I did this act, that I was done. And that conversation ended, courtney, I can remember I took the laptop and I told her like this has been the gateway, like this has literally been my drug dealer for the past five years and to make sure that I can never go back to it, I'm going to destroy this. And I took the laptop and I ripped it apart. I mean literally you're like it sounds impressive to say you ripped the laptop, but they're kind of made in two different pieces, yeah, but I broke it right and it was kind of like for me. I think it was very symbolic in a real defining moment, because it was me proving to myself, proving to her and proving to whatever is out there in the world God that I'm serious about this.

Frank : 15:58

So I destroyed the laptop and then I went downstairs, outside in Texas, zach. I said hey man, I just want to let you know I did what I told you I was going to do and he's like that's amazing, brother. And then I sent a video message to another good friend of mine, josh, who's really been my spiritual mentor over this time, and I said hey, man, you've known me for a few years now. There's been a secret I've kept from you.

Frank : 16:19

So I share these parts because I think it's important for people that are struggling with anything Like you got to find the ability to talk about what you're going through and talk about like, be open and honest, like with no fear of judgment, with no fear of shame or guilt. So I shot this video message to Josh and at the end of that video I still have it on my phone I looked in the camera and said Josh, I don't know what this is going to lead to, but I have a feeling that this is going to change my life forever and something big is going to come out of this. So the next few months, courtney, was you know what in kind of our space is like the rebooting, kind of rewiring process. So this is when your brain kind of begins to heal, just like with any addiction, you kind of you begin to see the world a whole lot differently and the clarity comes through. So much clarity, so much.

Frank : 17:06

And as somebody that you know had looked at himself as a high achiever for a long time through fitness, bodybuilding, entrepreneurship, business it was like, wow, I had this gear that I've never tapped into, like holy shit, like what am I capable of doing. But once again I started, you know, talking with people, reaching out to men's groups, like talking to my friends, sharing it with my family, just getting as much support, but really getting as much off of my chest as possible, because I think shame begins to manifest, like when you're keeping the secrets. So anybody who's willing to listen to me, I began to share it with them and as I was healing and as I was finding this next gear, I began to think like, wow, like, okay, I've read, you know, at this point, a few hundred self-development books. I've spent a good amount of money, you know, good bit of money, on my personal growth, personal development. What about the guys out there that maybe, like, aren't high performers, like aren't co-getters, like what are they dealing with? How are they going to overcome this? Like they need to know that there's a way out of this. So that led me to wanting to launch my podcast, which came in July of that year, and the original genesis of the podcast was just for me to put my story and have a platform, like you're doing here, to interview other people. That was why I started.

Frank : 18:20

That was our first six months. You know, we focused deep on addiction. I brought some other people on that had overcome their journeys. We talked about drug addiction, alcohol addiction, anything that was like rock bottom to kind of mountaintop moment, yeah, you're willing to talk about. But it was interesting because as the podcast began to get some recognition, apple picked us up, knew and noteworthy. We began to kind of get some reach there. I began to get a lot of messages and the first series of messages just came from guys saying hey, frank, thank you so much for what you're talking about. Like we've always thought that we there was something unique about us and that we're the only one struggling with this, but hearing your story and hearing other people's gives us some hope.

Courtney : 18:59

Absolutely. I have so many questions. So this is where I want to stop you, because I have so many questions, because I know my listeners are going to want to know this. So, and I'm sorry for abruptly interrupting you, but it goes back, because I think a porn addiction, if you don't have one, is probably a little bit hard to understand, right? So when you were in your midst of your addiction, what exactly were you seeking? Were you seeking an escape? Because this is how it's different. So, for me, I was addicted to alcohol. So, of course, drinking and drinking and drinking I mean, eventually I would always black out. So it was like that escape. I didn't want to feel, I didn't, I didn't want to be living in that current state. Was that exactly how that hit would hit you when you would be watching porn At times, right, you know there's.

Frank : 20:01

There's a numbing, there's a numbing effect that comes, comes with it, right, you know it's this. It's this rush of neurochemicals, the rush of oxytocin, the rush of dopamine that you get in the moment, followed by that kind of numbness, and I briefly kind of shared it, right, like I was. Somebody had a lot of anxiety, somebody has struggled with depression, mental health has been a major problem in my life and, looking at the landscape of my family, I was like it was generational.

Courtney : 20:27

Oh yeah.

Frank : 20:28

Addiction is something that runs deep in our genes for for for me. So there definitely was a numbing escape type type of component, absolutely.

Courtney : 20:37

So porn? Because we all have our bits of trauma, okay and I believe, of mental health issues. There's trauma there, obviously, especially when you're feeling like that Was your trauma, that gateway into porn.

Frank : 20:57

You know, I don't, I don't think so, you know, and and I wrestle a lot with the trauma conversation because I see that almost as an addiction in and of itself, because and in this I might I might get a lot of flack for this Like.

Courtney : 21:11

No say it.

Frank : 21:12

I see too many people play the victim to, to their trauma. I think trauma yes, there's big T trauma, right Like and I'm not here to to, to discredit, that's probably not the right word there but bad things happen and I and I understand that. But I think, I think I think the world has created a in social media, has created an environment where anybody can say that their trauma has created an environment where they can't break through and you can kind of live in this victim state For me. You know, yeah, you know, parents got a divorce when I was 15. It wasn't maybe the healthiest environment, but I don't. I don't point at that as the reasons as to why I got addicted.

Courtney : 21:53

Okay, I mean, that's, that's honest. You know, I just I always feel that people want to say that other drugs are gateways to bigger drugs and whatnot, and I just, I am a firm believer of that. The trauma usually is the gateway into this bigger. Bigger because we have to to. After we're done using, we have to figure out why we started using on the first place, right?

Frank : 22:20

So yeah, so I had a, so I've done a lot of conversations, I've done 180 episodes on my podcast in the last three and a half years, and I have a great friend, annie yetch. So Annie worked in cybersecurity and she was married to a Navy SEAL attendant for for over a decade and after Larry got out of the military, annie and Larry started a business together where they specifically help companies scale through, healing the trauma of the business owner. So she would be literally labeled as probably one of the world's leading experts on trauma, and her definition of trauma is it's perceived loss of control. So a moment in your life, you know, when you're four or five, six years old, you feel like you've lost control of the situation. That's trauma.

Frank : 23:01

So, I would say that anybody walking the earth right now, beyond the age of six years old, has experienced trauma. So that's where I kind of get to the point where it's like, yeah, we could look at the trauma as maybe the gateway, but it shouldn't be the reason as to why you can't break it. So that's why I don't spend a lot of time. That's not where my specialty lies. You know, somebody has had major sexual abuse, major sexual trauma. Yeah, they need to seek out some therapeutic help. But I think a lot of us have the ability to really go back and just rewrite that narrative of that moment. That happened and it should no longer hold power over us. And that's kind of been my experience both in both in my life and then with a lot of men that we work with today.

Courtney : 23:40

Right and that's understandable. I get that. I get that of what you're saying. And so this is my second question, because we kind of chatted about this before the porn addiction to the sex addiction. Because, as you described and you know you can kind of elaborate more when you were listening to the podcast of the men talking about porn addiction and then how it translated into their relationships, how close are those two topics of where it's like this hand in hand right, if you have a porn addiction, is the sex addiction there?

Frank : 24:24

I think for some people, yes, but I think my story is an example of I was watching porn before I had sex. I've had hundreds of clients, many of them young men, that haven't had any sex. So I have a hard time saying that all porn addiction is a sex addiction. I think porn addiction sex would be behavioral is as well. I think that it can lead. Now for those examples like with Michael, right. So Michael shared a story where he was addicted to porn, was in a marriage. Then he started seeking out prostitutes, escorts, and this is kind of where it can tie into human trafficking.

Frank : 25:02

So with any addiction there's going to be a desensitization effect. You're going to need more and more of the same stimulus to produce the same result. So if you start watching pornography as a young man, maybe you're watching casual sex between two consenting adults, right, that's going to get you to a certain point. Then you're going to have to go into a deeper genre. Then you have to go deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper, to where it gets to the point where you're watching humans have sex with animals. Just, maybe a little graphic there for some people, but trust me, it's out there and I've had conversations with people.

Frank : 25:31

Now what ends up happening when what you're watching on the screen no longer does it for you. You're so desensitized to the screen but you still want that stimulus. Well, no consensual adult is going to do the things for you that you need to do to get yourself off. So that's where it leads to escorts, prostitution and really the dangerous place is trafficking, because once you buy sex from a trafficker, you can do whatever you want with that individual. So I see pornography addiction as the gateway into trafficking, more than sex addiction.

Courtney : 26:02

Yeah, I'm still a caught on the human beings having sex with animals.

Frank : 26:08

Yeah, that was actually something I've never said before. It was a recent thing that was dropped on a podcast with somebody else that I interviewed. So, I apologize if that really shook some people, but no, it's fine.

Courtney : 26:20

I mean, we're animals here, but it's hard to believe. But it's out there and people do it, and that for some is it does it for people. That's why it's like human beings are fascinating. So Also I want to add this Is there a recovery program for porn or is it with the sex and love? I mean, is that all tied together? Do you know if there's a 12-step program for porn addiction?

Frank : 26:55

So that's an interesting one. So when you look in the DSM-5, which is the clinical book that clinicians or the science world would look at for addiction, pornography is not yet accepted. So this is where it's been interesting and challenging for me to kind of break through into some circles, because it's like hey, like this clinical book doesn't recognize it right. Yet there's gambling and video game addiction. So same thing, same mechanism is firing there In the 12-step program. I'm not aware of a 12-step program for pornography. There's SAA right, which is Sex Addict Anonymous.

Courtney : 27:32

Our SLA Sex and Love.

Frank : 27:35

Yeah, there's our programs and there's a lot of other programs out there that are specifically centered around the pornography addiction. But I don't know of the 12-step program. I don't think specifically. No, and it's also because it's so damn new right the internet and the current form that we have here today, and I think it's important here to recognize right. Like, when I speak about pornography addiction, I'm literally talking about an addiction to internet streaming pornography. I don't think that you get addicted 30 years ago to a magazine the same way that you would to the internet, like it's a different drug.

Courtney : 28:10

So Shine a light on that of how the internet streaming because, are you saying, because there's so many options?

Frank : 28:18

Oh, there's an infinite amount of pornography on the internet right now. So 30% of the internet is pornographic. If you just took some of the largest sites in the world and you said, okay, I'm going to watch all of the porn, it would take you 165 years consecutively great to consume at all. So with addiction, right, it's that stimulus, new stimulus, new stimulus, new stimulus, new stimulus. So, yeah, there's just this overwhelm of material that's available for free, right. So there's the big three A right, they say that that and this is from I believe it's fight the new drug, which is an incredible organization that really raises awareness. They're, like they talk about the three A that makes pornography addiction so dangerous. Number one is literally the accessibility of it. Like, it is free. Anybody that has a phone in their pocket has access to it 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and it's not, it's not going to wait for you to come after it. Like you know, I hear from parents all the time. They're like I'm downloading videos on YouTube and I'm getting advertisements for porn sites. So the accessibility. Then the affordability component right, once again, it is 100% free. So you have it.

Frank : 29:25

If you have an alcohol addiction, like you got to have the ability to come up with some money. You know, if you have a drug addiction you have to have the ability to produce funds. You can literally have $0 in your bank account and spend your entire day consuming pornography without having to spend a nickel. So the accessibility, the affordability and then the anonymity component right. You know, you can literally sit in your room and not a single person know For me. I was a bodybuilder, I was doing fitness modeling. Not a single person in my life would have looked at me and said that guy's got some problems that he's struggling with. If you're struggling with alcohol, over time it's going to appear.

Frank : 30:00

The people around you are going to know, like whether they smell it on your breath or you're slurring your words. If you have a drug addiction, people are going to begin to see you begin to deteriorate. So yeah, once again, the internet is just a whole different ballgame and whole different animal and I think people need to know, like hey, this is out there and it's in the hands of our children.

Courtney : 30:21

Well, so with clients, you're saying because you help people with porn addiction, yes, what is the youngest? Who is the youngest you have helped? Because when I did the interview with the sex and love addiction, she was telling me she had a 19-year-old kid in a SLAW meeting who couldn't even perform at 19 because of his porn addiction.

Frank : 30:51

Yeah. So you know, most young men, by the point they had their first sexual experience, have had hundreds, if not thousands, of sexual releases through pornography. In our program we won't take anybody under the age of 18. Okay, it's a paid program, right? So they've got to be able to afford to work with us as well, and I'm also not here to do a parent's job. I think if you're a minor and you're struggling with a pornography addiction, I think it's hard to say it's a parent's fault. But I think it's the parent's fault and I think it's their responsibility to get control of it. So I won't work with anybody that's a minor, and I've had young boys as young as 13 reach out to me 13.

Courtney : 31:27

That breaks my heart. I have an 18-month-old, so like that's so young.

Frank : 31:36

13 years old, I mean well so the average age of first exposure right now, for both boys and girls, is 11, 11 years old. So as you're raising up, you know you're boy or girl.

Courtney : 31:47

Boy.

Frank : 31:48

Yeah. So it's a conversation that I believe parents need to begin to have around six, seven, eight, eight years old just understanding the awareness and preparing your child for the time when they're young brain that is not equipped to handle it does see it, because you're not going to keep it out of your children's hands, like once the world gets her hands on them, they're friends at school, right? You know, this is a conversation I'm having with my sister. I got a 12-year-old nephew. She's like well, he's such an angel, he's all this, and I was like it doesn't matter, I had straight A's too, I was in force to the athlete, I was achieving things in the world as well. So, yeah, I think for parents understand like there comes a time in every young boy or girl's life where their young brain sees something that is not equipped to handle because the male brain isn't fully developed until 25, 26 years old.

Courtney : 32:37

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Courtney : 34:40

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Courtney : 36:14

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Courtney : 36:42

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Courtney : 38:31

I have a girlfriend. Her husband is a principal at a middle school and he has said wait as long as possible to give these children phones. Wait as long as possible. I mean, I know you would have to then keep an eye out on apps and stuff on computers and whatnot, but this is the thing. Not only are you having that porn addiction right, then you're having addiction to your cell phone as well. If that's the case, it's no, it's it's. I don't want to compare it. But then there's that addiction to cell phone and now social media, and it's all the same thing, with these dopamine hits and just constantly plugged in.

Frank : 39:13

Yeah, no, it's pulling on the, it's pulling on the same mechanism and I think that's where that's where parents are scared to have the conversation with their kids. Hey, stay off your phone, because they don't want to stay off of theirs. I know, and that's why I said, when a young, when a young man, a young boy under the age of 18 has a problem, all I do is I look and that's the parents fault no-transcript.

Courtney : 39:35

Yeah, I'm currently been rewiring myself with my cell phone and because I kind of got lost into it, because I was put on bad rest at 23 weeks, was taken off of work, all of it, and then I had my son and then it's almost like my phone became an escape in some of those early days and then being as transitioning to a stay at home full-time mom, so I get it. I see it with the person.

Frank : 40:05

I think a good documentary. I don't know if you've seen it yet. I believe it's on Netflix. It's called the Social Dilemma.

Courtney : 40:10

Yeah, that, yes, so.

Frank : 40:11

I mean, it kind of reveals to you right, these tech companies, right, they have the most brilliant minds in the world, not only the most brilliant engineers, but every single one of them has psychologists on staff. Why does a tech company need psychologists working for them at the highest level? Because they need to understand what's firing and how can we get the brain addicted. If you're not paying for something you need to understand, you are the product.

Frank : 40:36

So your attention is the product to every single social media company. So you're going to create the app and they're going to do everything they can to keep you hooked on it as long as possible, because the more your eyeballs stay on it, the more valuable you are to them. And it's the same thing with pornography it's free, yet you're becoming the product, so they're going to do everything they can to keep you hooked onto these sites. It's all the same tech, it's all the same algorithms, it's all the same engineers, it's all the same psychologists working behind the scenes that are creating a platform that is literally designed to keep you hooked on it. So, as you're watching one video, they know okay, so this is what he's into. So we're going to present to you ads or we're going to set up the next video for you to keep you engaged, keep you hooked on it as long as possible.

Frank : 41:16

This is why I'm grateful that we're able to have these conversations to bring this to people. They're like well, it's really not that deal, it's just a phone, right? No, we need to understand. I have a lot of rules in and around my phone use. It doesn't come into my office, like literally, like when I'm working, my phone sits downstairs, it doesn't go into the bedroom, and these are just little things that I've had to build in my own life, boundaries that I've had to put in place. Yeah, maybe people don't like it that they can't get ahold of me throughout the day, but there was a time that I can remember where you didn't have access to get ahold of everybody.

Courtney : 41:46

I know it was great. Or when people called and you had to be.

Frank : 41:51

I always had to be like I think it makes people feel more important than they truly are. It's like, oh well, if somebody called me, I need to answer it right away. Is it really? Yeah, I heard an interesting fact about Napoleon. Like Napoleon was like conquered half the world. Like, yeah, those hundreds and hundreds of maybe 1,000 plus years ago. But when he would get a letter, like he intentionally left a letter on his desk for two weeks because he knew in his mind that A number one if whatever problem is presented in that letter is big enough that he needs to get the attention, somebody's going to find the way to get his attention. But secondly, if it's not that big of a problem, it's probably going to take care of itself. So I think people are maybe too caught up in their own ego that they're more important than they truly are. You don't need 24 seven. Access to people.

Courtney : 42:34

No, not at all.

Frank : 42:35

Trust me, I run multiple. I run multiple businesses today and I do just fine without my phone on my pocket, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Courtney : 42:42

Yeah, yes, and too, it gets to the point as well. It's like if you don't pick up your phone, and then people will be like, well, I called you the other day. It's like great, I'm calling you back. Yeah, why is porn free? How is that possible? I've, just because this okay, this is my I have watched some porn. Porn's never been my thing because, honestly, I always have felt bad for the women yeah, always. So how is that able to be free, though?

Frank : 43:16

Well, how is? How is social media? How is Instagram? How's Facebook? How's Twitter? How is TikTok? Free?

Courtney : 43:22

That's true.

Frank : 43:23

So it's a platform that is driven through ads. So if we can get you on this, then we're going to monetize you and your eyeballs through the advertisements. And then, yeah, there are services that are you know, that are that are paid, like you can get premium services with sub hub or, I'm sorry, with one hub and stuff like that, but the vast majority of it is is free because, once again, if we can give it to you, then we can get you hooked on it and then we can really begin to monetize you. I can guarantee the porn industry wouldn't be a hundred and fifty billion dollar industry. I don't think it was a paid industry. The fact that it's free is what's creates the indicative environments where we can have guys that are spending six, seven, eight, 12 hours a day on it.

Courtney : 44:01

I guess that's just my naiveness of like, where is the censorship we're you know of of how some of that is is allowed?

Frank : 44:10

Well, porn has, I mean, it's been at the forefront of tech, like technology revolutions, right? You know, it drove the, the internet, Like it was early adopter of the internet. It drove virtual reality. It's going to drive AI. So companies once again greedy capitalists that are here just to do nothing more than make a dollar off of you and me, are going to say, well, we don't really care about what it's doing to people, it's going to put money in our pockets and we're going to do whatever it takes to put money in our pockets. So, you know, call it an agenda, call it behind the scenes, whatever you, whatever you want, that's what's driving it, because it is a massive money maker through the through, literally the like the revolution of technology.

Courtney : 44:54

I'm I'm thinking now about this conversation I'm going to have to have with the little dictator when he's seven.

Frank : 45:00

So there's a great book for parents out there that you know maybe have four or five, six year old. There's a great book called Good Pictures, bad Pictures.

Courtney : 45:07

Oh, okay.

Frank : 45:08

And it's written for children, right To kind of say like, and it just teaches you like, okay, well, body parts, this, that, that, that, that, like. I would definitely recommend any parent out there going. They can pick it up on Amazon is probably less than 20 bucks and there's other organizations out there as well. You know I had Chris McKenna on, who's a founder of Protect Young Eyes, so his, you know his, his, his, his company, and and and what their mission is to go out there and educate parents and schools and institutions on how to have these conversations how to set up a safe environment with your tech, with your devices, because once again, like it is coming after you and after your children.

Frank : 45:45

So it's not just let me sit back and think that it's not going to happen. It will come. Video games right. Video games are a gateway for, for, for for people to begin to kind of I will say predators, right, but. But yeah, so if you got a kid that's locked into the, the video games, and then he's having conversations with people all over the world, like people will make their way into that and then once again, like downloading things off of YouTube or or these other apps, like it's just going to appear, yeah, Well, I definitely I want to, because I kind of skipped over it, but I wanted you to elaborate more because I think it's a very important topic as well.

Courtney : 46:20

But get into the layers. You know kind of just just share a little bit more of the porn and the layers, how then it gets into trafficking?

Frank : 46:32

Yeah, so we briefly touched on it. Right, you know the the the one side for the consumer, how eventually you're going to reach a point where you're so desensitized what you're watching on the screen that you're going to begin to seek other alternatives. Another way that it is closely tied is these traffickers will use pornography to not warm up, but to prepare their victims for what's going to happen to them. So I have a 12 year old girl and she's going to get raped by three men. Right, how can I, how can I begin to desensitize her to what's going to happen? Well, I can show her pornography of a 12 year old girl getting raped by three men. So I think that there's I think that there's two converging things here that are that are that are driving it, you know.

Frank : 47:20

And then and then second, and then a second thing I think that that drives it as well is, you know, up until you know, late 2020, early 2021, like any person in the world could go on and upload a video to porn hub, to any of these sites without any verification.

Frank : 47:36

So literally I could, I could rape somebody today and then tomorrow put their video up on porn hub without any verification at all, and it doesn't matter if the girl's 12, if she doesn't matter if she's 2022, you know there's a whole, there's a whole genre of pornography, literally called revenge porn, where it's boyfriends, you know, that are getting revenge on their exes or whatever, by sharing their sex tapes that they've done maybe, maybe consented at the time of it, but it wasn't consented to become a video that millions of people are going to consume. So, once again, it's it's. It's it's converging from two different sides. You're getting the men that are going to start in pornography and they're going to make their way into trafficking, but then you're getting the trafficking industry that is using it as a gateway or marketing for what they're doing behind the scenes.

Courtney : 48:23

Oh, I mean this conversation. I have a lot to think about, like this is and that's. I didn't think that we would get into that in this conversation. It's just so sad. It's sad, that's what I'm saying.

Frank : 48:36

Porn was never my thing because I felt bad for these women, you know, because I I'm sorry, but it affects women differently, right, you know, like your brain is different than mine, my brain is designed to respond visually.

Courtney : 48:48

Right.

Frank : 48:49

You know, so I had, so I had a the head of the head of addiction from Stanford, dr Anna Lemke. She wrote dopamine nation, which is incredible for anybody that is struggling with addiction or anything.

Frank : 48:58

check out dopamine nation. Yes, dr Anna Lemke. She opens up the book, though, and we talked about it on the podcast, where she literally herself was struggling with an addiction to the Twilight series novels. So what you see a lot of times with women is it becomes these erotica novels. Right, because there's an element of fantasy and kind of the visual thing that that women so that kind of becomes their addiction. We're men, we're visual, like you know. That's why women wear makeup, that's why all all these other things, because our brain is literally created to respond to the visual stimulus. So that's probably plays into a little bit of why it didn't impact you the way that it did me or a lot of men. And then, yeah, obviously, like you said you, you cared about the women.

Courtney : 49:39

But, and I also want to say too, I was also a lover of the Twilight series, so, look, I get it, I get it. Same thing with what was the other one 50 shades. But that's where, too, you feel bad for the, for women, okay, but I know that there can be some empowerment in in sex workers. No, no, no shade there if that's what you're choosing to do. But I have to bring it back to the women who get thrown into trafficking like that. It's like what is the percentage that these women come out of it? Do you know, or no?

Frank : 50:15

Oh man, great, great question, and if I, if I answer that, I'll probably be speaking out of out of out of line. I mean, I've had some great conversations. I actually shared a clip to one of our social media pages today from a story that we did back in January of 2020 with Hannah, who Hannah was 21 at the time was trafficked by her boyfriend who was in the Coast Guard, you know. So they started dating, they started having sex and then, and then he started forcing her to have sex with his friends. So there are stories of people getting out of it. There's amazing.

Frank : 50:45

There's amazing organizations, like I mentioned, fight, the new drug raises awareness operation on the ground railroad, headed up by Tim Ballard. There's amazing work with rescuing children and women from all over the world. Currently, there's 40 million. There's 40 million slaves in the world, 10 million of them being children. There's more. There's more slaves in the world today than any other time in in history, and the vast majority of them are, are, are sex slaves. Human trafficking in and of itself is a $150 billion industry. There's more revenue than the NBA, nhl, mlb and NFL combined.

Courtney : 51:21

Oh, that's just terrible Cause. Then I've always thought too, like you know, these, these kidnapping, honestly, like these kids who've gone missing and are never found again, I'm always like they probably got sold into sex trafficking at some point. Like, just it's just, it's disgusting.

Frank : 51:38

Yeah, that's the danger with people, though, is thinking that it's the white van, that's, you know, ripping kids off the street. Yeah, there's a little bit of that, but most of your trafficking is going to come from within the home or from people that you, that you know.

Courtney : 51:51

Oh, within the home. Yeah, oh gosh. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Frank : 51:56

I'm sorry if you weren't prepared. No, because this.

Courtney : 52:00

No, this is what I have to test. Since becoming a parent, I was a person who could. I could watch murder mysteries, I could watch kidnapping specials, I could take it in. And then, when I had my son his name's CJ, but I call him the dictator when I had the dictator, something switched in me where I started watching a murder like a date line special and that's a that's getting desensitized as well, right, and I just and it was about a child, and all I saw was his face. I just saw my son's face over and over and over, and this was when he was like a month old and I, I can't watch this anymore and even like listening to this stuff, it's like I, just I, I see him it, it's, it's crazy, it's crazy. So it's just. It's like I've had a different conversation than I thought we were going to have today, but it's informational and this is what people need to hear. So give me three tips, give the listener three tips on how to overcome porn addiction.

Frank : 53:08

Absolutely. I think the first one is gotta actually admit and accept that there's a problem. You know, I think I think we didn't get a lot into the addiction side, how it's impacting things, but I think you know, up until maybe we're recently, as we kind of talked about briefly, is like it wasn't really a conversation and even again like it's not fully accepted clinically, which I'm hoping that that does change. I think the first step is just have to admit and accept that there is a problem. You know, say that, say that to yourself. I think my story is a great example of what the next step would be, though you got to talk to somebody else about it, because I've had, at this point I don't know a thousand conversations with young men over the last four and a half, three and a half, four, four years.

Frank : 53:50

Most of them are living in shame. You know, they know internally that something isn't right about how they're acting, but they're scared to go and talk about it. Because what are they going to say? Am I going to be judged Like? Am I going to be looked at as a bad person? No, you. I think addiction is a part of human nature. I think now there are people that are maybe tend to have it more destructive in their life. But we all seek comfort. We all seek something to kind of escape the world. So if you're struggling with something and it's had an impact on your life, realize like you are not the only one that's going through it. So once you admit and acknowledge it to yourself, I think you got to go have a conversation with somebody else, because if you're living in shame, that that is not a feeling or emotion that becomes your state of being.

Frank : 54:29

Like you know, you literally cannot break out out of that. Like there's a powerful book by Dr David Hawkins called Power versus Force. He's got this spectrum. Have you read it? Yes, Amazing, right, he gives you the spectrum of you know. So death and enlightenment are kind of the top of the spectrum.

Frank : 54:45

And it's kind of these series like this, this state of being. You know the top, it's like you know joy, service, caring, and then not the bottom. There's like guilt, but the the, the one level right above death, is literally shame. So if you're living in a state of shame like you're, you're just one step above being dead and it's like that's not a, that's not a place that you're going to be able to empower yourself to do anything. So, once you've accepted it within yourself, have a conversation, but have the conversation with the right person.

Frank : 55:13

Yes, so maybe that is. You know somebody who's going to provide a safe environment, whether it's a bigger brother, if you're a young man, or an uncle, or a father or a pastor. I don't think most men should go to their wives first. Begin to kind of work on the problem, if she's not aware of it, before you go and talk with her, because you don't want to recruit your wife into play the accountability for you, because she's going to take on a motherly role and that is going to cause more harm within the relationship than any good would come out of you breaking it.

Courtney : 55:41

And I have to say too, she will probably take on the why am I not good enough coming from a woman's perspective at this? I just want to add that in there Apps, apps, apps, apps.

Frank : 55:52

Absolutely.

Courtney : 55:52

And it really doesn't. I would probably assume, or guess, that it doesn't have anything to do with that person at all. Whether you're in a relationship with male, female, it has nothing to do with that person.

Frank : 56:04

I don't see it. I don't see it as that way. No, because I was in a few great relationships with beautiful women that I was very sexually attracted to, that up until it got really, really bad. We had great chemistry, great intimacy. So I don't believe it has anything to do with how you're seeing your wife. I think it's how. I think it's pulling on a mechanism within the brain that's tied into a pleasure, that's tied into reward seeking chemicals. So, yeah, admitted and accepted, have a conversation.

Frank : 56:36

A third step well, I wrote a book called seven, so there's seven. But I would say the next step is is getting to get some type of help. You know, whether it's joining a support group through the SAA, joining a church group, joining Celebrate Recovery. They have, you know, they have divisions within their program that are dedicated to it, hiring a coach. But don't allow, you know, when you begin to go down the process of of recovering from it, don't allow a slip, failure, relapse, slip back, to kind of define. You look at it as an opportunity to grow. Because you know, I look at addiction recovery as very directed, personal and self self development, like there's areas lacking within you, whether it's your inability to regulate your emotions, whether it's your inability to to keep the word, to to hold the promises that you make yourself a living integrity. So don't allow those setbacks, failures, to define you, just looking at it as as opportunities for growth.

Courtney : 57:28

And that goes into, as you said, the whole addiction, the whole addiction recovery space. That's not just for one thing because you know a lot to don't you think it's a content. You have to be a continuous work in progress, absolutely To respect you got to respect your own recovery. And once you start not respecting it, whether it's you stop writing in your gratitude journal, your ego comes up saying I got this, you stop doing your daily walks, I'm just, I'm just throwing some stuff out there. Whatever it is, when you, when you start getting yourself out of there, that's where those slip ups can happen. 100, 100%.

Frank : 58:08

Yeah, I say you know. Freedom from pornography is not an end Destination. It's a continuous aim that we pursue every single day and it's through living that life right, you know. Are you living in a state of gratitude? Are you, you know, connecting with God or higher power? Do you have a prayer practice? Are you, do you have tools to regulate your emotions when you're stressed, whether it's meditation or breathing exercises? Are you living in service of other people? Do you have passions and purposes that you're pursuing so you don't need to seek out meaningless pleasure? Do you have a community that loves you and you can love on as well? Once you begin to stack these things in your life, you realize like I don't. I don't want to escape from my life, so you want to get free of pornography and you're using pornography as a way to escape. Build a life you no longer want to escape from.

Courtney : 58:55

Amen, frank, and you have not watched porn at all. No magazines, I know magazines sound so outdated, but I don't even know if they have magazines of that anymore. But nothing since yeah.

Frank : 59:09

So February of last month, so February 14th, was four years of. You know, call it sobriety or freedom, yeah, yeah.

Courtney : 59:16

Well, congratulations, congratulations, because that was the other one question I wanted to ask you before we wrap this up how long did it take you to regain how you got so desensitized? How long did it take you to, I guess, resensitize yourself? I don't know, I don't know if I'm using the proper language of that when you stopped watching porn?

Frank : 59:42

Yeah, so I think I think I went through, you know, I think I went through stages right, you know, I think I think within the first couple of weeks, I began to feel a whole lot better. I began to have that sense of clarity and drive that I really had never experienced before, you know. So I would say a few, a few months at at first, and I think it's just gotten, you know it's, it's gotten better over over time.

Courtney : 1:00:06

Mm. Hmm. Okay, where can people find you? You got a podcast, yeah, yeah.

Frank : 1:00:10

So, we have a podcast. If you guys are into, you know these long form style of conversations. You know, like I mentioned a few, a few people that we've had on. So we interview, you know, experts from around the world authors, doctors, scientists. We've expanded a little bit outside of the realm of just addiction now and it's really in the self development for men's space. So anything that's going to provide men with tools to level up in their life, whether it's their faith, fitness, finances, family or freedom, you can find that at the superhuman life, on Apple, spotify, wherever you listen to your podcast.

Frank : 1:00:41

For me personally, I spend most of my time, like actively in the social sphere, I guess on Instagram. So that's that, coach Frank Rich. We have a YouTube channel as well. We hit 10, 10,000 subscribers at the end of January, took a small hiatus in February because it was a grind. I did a video every single day for over two and a half years. It was very exhausting work, but once we hit 10K I stepped back for a brief moment. But we're kind of relaunching that channel now. And then the rebuilt recovery I mentioned. I have a free book, right. So if you're okay I mean if there's a guy out there, anybody that's struggling with it. It's called the seven step guide to living life without porn, where we walk you through how to create that life that you no longer want to escape from. And you can find that at the sevenstepguidecom, seven is spelled out, so the sevenstepguidecom.

Courtney : 1:01:31

And I will link all your information in the show notes. Tell me, though rebuilt recovery, yes. Is that one-on-one coaching?

Frank : 1:01:41

So we obviously have the free stuff, right yeah?

Frank : 1:01:43

We have all the books and all the content. We do group coaching, we have courses available and then for because I think community is important for it so within the group you get some one-on-one support and accountability. But if there's a guy out there, kind of high profile figure, that's kind of like worried about maybe getting his name in a circle where he's going to kind of like, hey, whether he's a star or an athlete or what like that, or just a high profile guy that's like hey, I want to work specifically with you. We do have that option available. But the vast majority of our work is either in the course or in the group coaching which you can find all the information on that at RebuiltRecoverycom. I love it.

Courtney : 1:02:26

Anything, though, you want to share with somebody who is struggling. Just one last word of wisdom from you, yeah.

Frank : 1:02:36

Thank you. I mean first off. Thank you, courtney, for today, for opening up your platform and having this conversation. I know we went in some areas that maybe you weren't expected, but that's where the conversation needed to go, I guess, right.

Courtney : 1:02:48

Yeah.

Frank : 1:02:49

For any guy that's out there struggling, whether you're a young man or you've been dealing with this for a very long time, you're not alone. I think at this point a larger percentage of men are struggling than probably aren't in the Christian circle. They say 70% of active Christians watch porn on a regular basis and out of that 70%, around 40 to 45% of them admit to having a problem that they don't feel they can control in and of themselves. So if it is a problem in your life, just know that you're not alone. There's a way out of it. You don't need to feel like you're a slave. You don't need to feel like you're addicted to this forever. Follow the steps you know, get some support, get some accountability and, once again, don't look at any failures or setbacks as losses, looking at those opportunities to grow and improve yourself. I love it.

Courtney : 1:03:34

Thank you, frank, for being on the show and, as I stated, all of your links will be in the show notes, so, do you have a problem? Reach out to Frank. Thanks, courtney.

Frank : 1:03:44

Thanks, Courtney.