Emotional Sobriety with Colleen Kachmann

Episode 145: Emotional Sobriety with Colleen Kachmann

In episode 145 of the Sober Vibes podcast, Courtney Andersen welcomes Colleen Kachmann to the show to talk about Emotional Sobriety. 

What you will learn in this episode:

• Colleen's Story
• Emotional Sobriety 
• Challenges faced in early sobriety 
• Reasons for sobriety 

Colleen Kachmann specializes in emotional sobriety. She is a recovery-certified Master Coach and the Recover with Colleen podcast host.

Thank you for listening.

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Transcript

Courtney : 0:00

Music Playing Plays in Background. Google, mit, disrupttaa sound真相 made music plays with power in locations. Hey, welcome to the Sober Vives podcast. I am your host and sober coach, courtney Anderson. You are listening to episode 145. And in today's episode we are talking about emotional sobriety.

Courtney : 0:45

First, I want to thank everyone who has purchased a copy of Sober Vives A Guide to Thriving in your first three months without alcohol. I so appreciate it and I just love getting messages from you telling me how this you're enjoying the book, you love the colors of the book, you're enjoying the prompts of the book. And even to people who are past that timeline of you know the first three months of sobriety, who who are past that timeline and still bought the book, to support but also to go back to the beginning and get more of the fundamental beginning down, into, revisit the beginning, because that is what I am all about when it comes to this road of sobriety. You really do have to keep that sobriety and recovery, I should say. But you really do have to keep your why in that beginning, of why you started in the first place to help you with long term sobriety and recovery, because it's very easy to get to three years and be like I got this, I got this, and then go out and being like, oh my God, this ended up the exact same space or exact same spot that I started at three years ago. So I personally think this book just because I wrote it. But I do think that this book can help you at different points, but specifically for those first 90 days, just because it is a great reflection to go back to and sometimes you do have to do that stuff.

Courtney : 2:25

I did it for many years and I talk about it in the book where on Sundays I reflected back to a point in my active addiction with alcohol of like what it brought, what happened, and I didn't spend more than five, 10 minutes back there. I didn't live in the past. They don't live in the past, but you have to remember where you came from. As always, if you've heard me say, too, about staying humble, that will help keep your ass humbled if you keep remembering where alcohol took you. So today we have a great conversation with our guest, colleen Ketchman. She specializes in emotional sobriety, she is a recovery coach and she is the host of the Recover with Colleen podcast. I enjoyed this conversation.

Courtney : 3:19

I always enjoy hearing from other women's perspectives of how they got sober and what their story is and just the connection with that. But this emotional sobriety, I think, comes up for people and you kind of wonder like, well, what the hell is emotional sobriety right? Or you hear it very early on and you don't understand it, because in those very early on days you're just living to not drink that day, and that is okay, that is no problem. You don't have to stick, you don't have to do the most at day one. So everybody's journey is different, but if you have heard of emotional sobriety in your path and now looking to build upon that, I think this is a great conversation for you to listen to. If you have any questions, as always, feel free to reach out to me on my Instagram at sobervibes, or you can always email me.

Courtney : 4:14

If you haven't gotten a copy of my book yet, the link is in the show notes. It is on Amazon Barnes Noble. I do have to say this that the shipping with Amazon in Canada is currently a delay. Also, too, if you live outside of the United States, in Canada, you won't get the book until mid September, again because of shipping delays and just where we're at in the world of 2023. So just be patient and it's coming your way. I promise you will get your little phalanges on the book, so if you haven't ordered it though, the link is in the show notes. All of my free resources and coaching is in the show notes. I'm so grateful for a wonderful August. I hope you had a wonderful August and ready to kick some ass this fall time with me. All right, enjoy the show and keep on truckin'. Hey, colleen, welcome to the sober vibes podcast. I'm very excited for you to be here today.

Colleen: 5:16

Thank you, courtney, it's great to be here. It's good to meet you.

Courtney : 5:19

Nice to meet you too. So why don't you tell us, when you got sober, what led you to the point of saying enough was enough?

Colleen: 5:27

Okay. So it was about six weeks into COVID and, like many people you know, in the beginning it was like, oh, we have to stay home and well, this is going to be fun. And I had been a daily drinker and I definitely kind of felt like like kind of like you get your shoelace tight around the bicycle pedal, like it was getting tighter and tighter. But life allowed me to continue. It gave me a reason to keep going. I equated to like bumpers on the bowling alley I had to be at yoga at eight in the morning, I had to drive my kids at night and I had committee meetings and I had clients, and so there was no. I had to stay sober long enough to do my driving and so it kept me in check. And when the lockdowns happened, the rails came off and about six weeks in I realized that I can't keep going and the stress of homeschooling my kids and just everything piling up and feeling so out of control. I just realized something had to change.

Colleen: 6:42

And it was a Tuesday morning and I woke up and realized I had drank like half of a fifth of whiskey because they had those convenient little pop-up tents for, you know, emergency services and you could go to the liquor store and I had gone to the liquor store, I think, twice in one week and gotten two megas of vodka and ran through it and then gone to whiskey and I don't even drink whiskey and I woke up the next morning and I was out running out that hangover, like I always did, and I was like I can't keep doing this. And so my day one was I just stopped and I literally dialed the AA emergency hotline and asked for help and said I'm not in any danger, but I'm not okay. And what do we do? And so, right in the middle of a country road, 9am on a Tuesday, three minutes later, I was on an online meeting and right after the meeting they hooked me up with a temporary sponsor and that was my day one. Amazing, well, congratulations, thank you. Best, worst day ever I know it really is.

Courtney : 7:52

It's the day one that finally sticks for so many. It's like that's really the start of your life again, because we were so. People in the space are so fortunate to live two lives at one. Right, you have the one where you were in your active, active relationship with whatever substance you loved, and then there's life and sobriety and recovery, and it's amazing.

Colleen: 8:18

It was. I immediately felt a huge sense of relief. You know, and I work with clients and I know not everybody's day one is cut and dry, but for me, thankfully, my active or my addictive personality was still fully engaged at that point, and so I just dove headfirst into sobriety culture. I think I make a joke, but I'm not joking. I tried to do all 12 steps in one day, like I got the book and I was like I am doing this, I'm gonna get an A plus in sobriety. And so, even though I dealt with withdrawals and I had a lot of shit to unpack, I still felt just a sense of relief that finally it was over, like the nightmare was over.

Courtney : 9:08

How long, though, were you, how long did you say that you were in your that active relationship with alcohol?

Colleen: 9:16

Well, I was a drinker from the time I was 18 on, and I definitely can look back. I had my first blackout in college, but only one, but I only had one. I always. I'm a person that likes to feel good, and so I naturally self-corrected. I didn't have any trouble. I had four kids. I had no trouble not drinking during pregnancy or breastfeeding although I was pretty good at pumping and dumping towards the end but I and I was always really engaged in my life, so that kept, like I said, rails on my use. I would say my drinking became problematic, Like. I remember the day that something in my brain shifted where I needed a reason to drink, like it's Friday night and we're going out with friends to. I needed a reason to not drink and that was 2006. And that was when my daily drinking happened. And I say because I've said it before, not because I necessarily remember I think I had about 10 sober days and 10 years where I wasn't drinking at night. Yeah, so that was a good run, I gave it a good run, yeah.

Courtney : 10:32

Well, and that's the thing too is it's very easy because there's a lot of people who can function and continue on with their day. Right, you know, you can do all the things and I was like, okay, I'm gonna go and have a couple of glasses, and then it builds, and builds, and builds, and then your tolerance gets more and more and more and you can still process and go about your day. That's where it's very hard for people to decide like, do I have a problem Because I can do A, B, C and D and still function. But then in their souls they know like this is an issue.

Colleen: 11:08

Yeah, yeah, for sure I did. I remember going to a yoga retreat. I taught yoga and I was a health coach and I honestly think some of my healthy habits offset. Unfortunately, they allowed me to drink longer because I was the queen of supplements. I was very scientific about how much water I drink and I physically exercised and sweat every day, so on the outside I checked all the boxes. But I do remember being in a yoga retreat in Child's Pose and they said think of one thing. What's the first thing that pops into your head that you need to change? And my inside voice was like alcohol and I was like shut up inside voice, everything's fine.

Courtney : 11:55

But that's what I mean. It came because your soul was talking to you in Child's Pose and it comes in for a lot of people, I think, in unexpected ways. At 25, I knew I was going to have to quit drinking and I didn't quit drinking until 29. I tried to make it work and it just wasn't working. But I give you so much credit because I always love hearing about pandemic sober babies Like it's so nice, Because I always thought that that was the perfect time for anybody to get sober, Because if you had to let me just put this in if you had a safe environment to be locked down in, Because you don't have to go anywhere.

Colleen: 12:39

Well, and that's my saving grace, because here's what would happen. There were times I thought I would need to quit drinking, but those were about an hour window and I don't know that by the time I got home from that run that I would have taken my butt to an AA meeting, because I actually didn't tell anybody I quit drinking. I was pretending Like I always used to pretend I wasn't drinking when I was drinking. So my husband would be like, is there vodka? And then I'm like, fuck off, there's no vodka in that. So then I had to pretend that I was pretending to not drink while drinking and I didn't even tell my husband because I wasn't ready to open that can of worms.

Colleen: 13:25

I felt like if I admitted that I had quit drinking, that would mean that all of the problems in our lives and all of my kids' lives were all my fault and I needed to get right with myself before I shared with the world. So going to an AA meeting would have been probably too vulnerable, and I think the week I quit it was April 21st, so I'm coming up on that day. That week was like the first day, first week, that AA meetings were online. So I got so lucky and I did have a safe environment. But I don't know how I would have done it Going to an AA meeting. I don't know. I probably would have given it a couple hours and then gone back to, so I was really lucky. The AA and other sobriety programs all of them are online.

Courtney : 14:19

Well, but that was also, too, that you could have looked at that as the universe having your back. Oh, it did.

Colleen: 14:26

It was time. Here's your present. It's called sobriety Yay.

Courtney : 14:31

Yeah, because everybody's different with God in the universe, or if they believe in that type of stuff. But it really, I think it comes down to a lot. With a lot of people it's like well, here you go, this is your shot and it's all laid out for you, and it's on you two to be like OK, this is it. Yeah, and did you say you got up and you ran that morning? God?

Colleen: 14:51

bless, I ran every morning. I would run six, eight, 10 miles and I felt like at the time I went back I mean yeah, I was aggressive, I was hard, I would run pythons.

Courtney : 15:02

I said. I said I'm impressive, not a guy, I'm impressive, no it was aggressive too.

Colleen: 15:07

I don't do that anymore to my precious little body.

Courtney : 15:10

Yeah, you got it. But I used to be in the restaurant business and I used to bartend and there was one of my regulars who would run like that and then he would come in and stop in and drink and then run back. I'm like I don't know how you do this and you're still standing and not like dehydrate yourself and pass out on the side of the road, Guilty, yeah, oh yeah. So it's all conditioning. Yeah, so congrats again on that, because that was a strange time in everybody's life of you know, March of 2020, and even looking back at that now, I'd say that's my husband. I'm like God. That was a weird time. But today I do want to talk to you about emotional sobriety being the foundation of recovery. Yeah, yeah, what would be your definition of emotional sobriety? I think this is defined based off a perspective, so what would you say that is?

Colleen: 16:11

I would define it in a few different ways. First of all, it is understanding and accepting the difference between what is and what you think should be. So it's being able to remove your emotions from a situation and identify the neutral circumstance so that you can see the story you're telling yourself. Emotional sobriety is realizing that the way you feel is not a reflection of the outside world. Yeah, other people don't make you feel a certain way, and so it's radical ownership. And I do want to say also that it's a framework. It doesn't apply in every situation. I often say if you have time to think, then this applies. If you're responding, if somebody puts a gun to your head, they are making you feel afraid, so we don't need to get our framework out and process it that way. Or if you're experiencing trauma or abuse, this is a framework for how to manage your mind. So it's not true all the time, in all the circumstances, but it's realizing that nobody is responsible for the way you feel and being willing to pull up your subconscious beliefs. So the body is the subconscious and, evolutionarily speaking, we are feelings evolved so that we didn't have to think so much, because we can only hold our focus on one thing at a time. So our feelings are there to guide us. They are information, but I think what I've often mistaken, and still do in the heat of the moment, is that the information we're getting is telling us that that guy is an asshole or this is impossible, or you're never going to get this right. We think that the information is about the outside world, and so it's really kind of radically inversing.

Colleen: 18:15

I use an analogy where the tail is wagging the dog versus learning to wag your own tail on your own terms. And so it's a process of identifying the beliefs. And what is a belief? A belief is just a thought you no longer question because you believe it's true. So it's using your emotions to indicate kind of like I know I'm full of analogies, but that's what I do. It's like the dashboard on your car.

Colleen: 18:48

If you're getting an emotion or, excuse me, you're getting the thing that says you're out of gas, you don't be like, well, we're never going to get there and fucking roads fault, no, you just need some gas. And so it's slowing down and taking the time to bring up all the thoughts and beliefs that are associated with your feelings and then being able to distinguish between what is neutral and what is a story and accepting what it is, so that you're not arguing with what should be, because that's where a lot of us get stuck is it shouldn't be this way and you're wrong. And if, okay, it is what it is now, how do I move forward? So that, to me, is what emotional sobriety is taking radical ownership of your experience of life and realizing there's always another perspective, there's always an option, and you can choose how you react, and it's how you react that creates future results. And so it's just radical ownership.

Courtney : 19:49

So how do you lay that foundation of emotional sobriety. Do you mean how I teach it? Yeah, yeah, you could say how you teach it. Yeah, how would somebody build that? When somebody quits drinking, anybody can quit drinking alcohol. But then there's a whole process of you have to figure out why and build that foundation of getting your emotional sobriety almost down to a point, because you're never fully. It's sometimes react even 10 and a half years later. Sometimes I still react to stuff when I'm like take a pause, chill. But yes, how would you teach that?

Colleen: 20:31

Well, I think emotional sobriety comes after sobriety, one of the but not long periods of time. But you got to give yourself a minute to get through the hangover. Get through any withdrawals. You're going to suffer. One of the best pieces of advice on my day one, my temporary sponsor was talking me through some stuff and my brain was just trying to make sense of everything. What does this mean? And I don't know what I'm going to say to my husband and I don't know how I'm going to tell my family. And she was like you don't have to figure anything out Best advice ever. So I think that our stories of meaning making those come in hindsight after you have resolved the emotions.

Colleen: 21:22

The emotions are physical, so base. You know, what would the first step be is abstinence and giving your brain a fighting chance to be able to get some clarity. You know, addiction is just when you're on autopilot and you're doing the same things and you're thinking the same things. Well, you can't change what you think if you don't interrupt that cycle. So abstinence would be the first thing. The second course of treatment I do is that emotions have to be dealt with energetically first. So trying to create a new story for yourself when you are still feeling those emotions. Again, an analogy is it's like trying to pull a ring off your finger when your fingers swollen. Emotions are inflammatory and so it's self care, it's soothing yourself, it's asking yourself what do I need right now, in this moment, to return my nervous system to a place of safety and connection? Because we all know when you're scared or pissed off all of your fats are reflective of scared and pissed off You're wearing goggles. And when you feel confident and clear, you're able to see a broader perspective and you're not in survival mode, which is whether stress responses, so abstinence. Then learning how to manage the stress response and complete the stress cycle and realizing that the moment you get emotional, that's your circuit breakers have blown. So learning to read your own body language, just becoming aware that you are having a stress response, is a huge skill.

Colleen: 23:16

And then treating the stress response, treating the emotions, the energy, first, and then allowing yourself at some point to go through the thoughts and beliefs and I teach thought models so we separate the neutral circumstance from the thoughts and beliefs about it. What do you make it? It mean, what story are you telling yourself? And then just going through that process. But that comes after you've quit drinking. That comes you have to be in a state, in a non-stressed state, and alcohol itself is inflammatory and stressful.

Colleen: 23:57

So breaking that cycle of addiction is first, but, as I found, so I was about a year sober and still felt perpetually hungover. Yeah, they couldn't figure it out, and I know and knew a lot about pause, and so I guess this is that. But ultimately, what I realized? My next recovery? I kicked the alcohol, kicked the addiction. My next recovery was from this addictive personality, this perfectionism, black and white, all or nothing thinking. That was frying my circuit breakers, because my brain fans always run in, kind of like your computer, it's like I'm overheating all the time. And so that's when I discovered emotional sobriety. And now I work with women. You can introduce it a lot sooner than a year in, but you know when you do it, and I was doing the best I could, but that was why I wasn't bouncing back.

Courtney : 25:01

Well, everybody's different Cause, everybody's different when they figure it out. For me it took almost two years because I was just trying to survive each day without drinking alcohol. So and to quit drinking alcohol.

Colleen: 25:19

Yeah, do you mean that you still had cravings and a desire to drink? I did not. I was like hard.

Courtney : 25:25

It was just a whole new world. I mean, I definitely I white knuckled my sobriety for that two years. After a year I did start getting into exercise and nutrition. But I would say those first two years it was difficult. And then by year three that's when I went back to therapy, started getting into personal development, a lot more shifted.

Courtney : 25:49

But I am a firm believer that it takes the person to figure that out Like okay. For me it was a year of like. I just had to go a year without drinking alcohol. I couldn't take on anymore, cause some people are built that way where they're like if they take on too much. If you go from being a lazy piece of shit, I'm just like just being like a drunk pig, then all the day going to like and then the next day being like oh my God, I am going to run a marathon, I'm going to try to lose 25 pounds, I'm going to sit there and try to practice meditation, I'm going to whip out my gratitude journal. You're going to lead yourself to overwhelm because for a lot it's just thinking about like I just have to make it today without drinking. And that's why that first year I just think like get through that first year and then start adding on to the rest. Yes, obviously, if you can do it before, cool.

Courtney : 26:45

But there is that not drinking alcohol. And then there's the next step of getting that solid foundation of what you're talking about, of emotional sobriety. Just, everybody's timeline is different with that. Some people don't figure it out till years and years and years down the road. Some people don't figure it out at all. No, you know. So it's just, it's a tough one, because then it goes back into being. You have to heal of why you were starting to drink in the first place in your response and going back to how you were conditioned as a child and bringing up painful memories if there was trauma or not. I mean, that's a whole awakening to a person. I think it was year three. I was like, yeah, my family is not that cool, you know where you. Just every year it's kind of something different.

Colleen: 27:41

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely an onion, it is.

Courtney : 27:46

It's an onion, but once you get the emotional sobriety there and you can get it a little bit sooner rather than later, you know, I think a huge practice for anybody experiencing that is just start with some gratitude and some meditation.

Colleen: 28:03

Well, Louie.

Courtney : 28:04

You know, what would you suggest as a tool? I know you said more self-care, but just for somebody who's like, okay, because we hear self-care all the time, right, so it's like self-care could look differently for everybody.

Colleen: 28:16

For sure. What does that even mean? And you know, I listened to your podcast. I think you and your sister were talking about the codependency. No more, oh yeah, and you know learning how to set boundaries. So self-care is hard.

Colleen: 28:34

What I would define self-care is is let's start with the basics. Are you getting eight hours of sleep every single night? Are you drinking enough water? Are you trying not to eat fast food all the time? You know dialing down the coffee Just. To me, the bridge for understanding of self-care was when I understood that I was taking care of my body, which may sound like a no-brainer, but I used to think self-care was massages and pedicures and making sure everything looks pretty on the outside, and so transferring the thought that I'm actually taking care of a two-year-old with a driver's license who wants to buy vodka, like that is who I am babysitting and so taking care of yourself. Making the tough calls like instead of worrying your brain and thinking, well, how am I going to get through this party and what am I going to say? And then you know what Sounds like the party's stressing you out, and the correct answer is to stay home. Learning how to babysit your body and give yourself what it needs is the most important thing of all.

Courtney : 29:47

You know, oh yeah, your body's your compass. Your body will lead you and to lead you into the day. Your body can, if you listen to it, prevent you from relapsing.

Colleen: 30:02

Yes, but for those of us who have grown up thinking our bodies are the enemies, and personally I thought I was smarter. I mean, I was bulimic for years and I had bulimia nailed to a science I could. I would mark so that I would eat the healthy stuff, mark it with a carrot or a beet and then eat the crap and then evacuate, just enough to get rid of the crap. And then I used, you know, make sure I got in acids in my throat like I thought I was smarter than my body. So just understanding that I am, my body took like that.

Colleen: 30:41

That was a huge part for me of I didn't get that in the first year, you know, I thought I was still trying to outsmart my body and so realizing that our body is on our team and you know whether it's weight or whether it's age, the things that we judge ourselves for, that's moving into emotional sobriety. Your age is what it is. It's only what you think about it that you look too old. Your wrinkles aren't the problem. Your thoughts about your wrinkles are the problem.

Colleen: 31:12

And but that's complicated stuff, you know, and dealing. Most of us come in either dealing with anxiety or depression or both, and so what do you need to deal with that, you know? Do you need a therapist, do you need medication? What does your body need to feel better? I think that is a baseline question that separates instead of like, well, what do you need to feel better? Well, I need a million bucks and a better boyfriend.

Courtney : 31:41

No, no, no no.

Courtney : 31:41

What's your body need right now to feel better, which I'm glad you said that, because especially in this field, you know, with sobriety it's like if you have to go on medication there's no shame on that, and that's where it needs to kind of be stopped. That it's, for some people, is 100% sobriety of you know, not being helped with a prescribed medication. Or if some people smoke weed, they smoke weed like it's. There's a lot to that, but I do think it's true. You know I'm not a firm believer too. This is, and I wish I would have done this a little bit better. But when I quit drinking, I then quit smoking cigarettes a couple of weeks later. I wish I would have waited, because I put too much goddamn pressure on myself where that was like a ticking time. I was a, I was an emotional little demon and I just for some people that works to just give it all up, but for some people it doesn't so. But it goes back to what does your body need?

Colleen: 32:45

I think being kind to your body is so important. I too, you know, I didn't smoke cigarettes but I've baked and I've baked and I was on Adderall and I drink enough coffee to own my own shop and I tried to get all of it at once and just threw my brain into the biggest dopamine deficit to where, nine months into sobriety, I finally said uncle, and went back on the psych med and you know, a small dose, and it just made all the difference in the world. And that's where I learned that, truthfully, for me, I'm in recovery from perfectionism, from all or nothing thinking, and you know, sure, it would be nice to never need any medications, but you know, and I even have a different view of alcohol now, as a person in recovery from perfectionism, I don't think that I'll. You know, I've had a couple of glasses of wine and I did not turn back into some crazy lunatic.

Colleen: 33:46

In fact, it was when my husband's mother passed away and she had had like a $450 bottle of wine and he opened it and everybody's getting some and I was like you know what that feels like I could have some of that and allowing myself to do that without beating myself up, and then was that okay? Well, I only had like four sips, so yeah, it was fine and I felt good about it and realizing that recovery is a process of you becoming your own best friend and learning how to self correct so that if you do make a decision, you do get on the medication or you do have a drink, that you can be honest about what it feels like in your experience of your body and honor your intuition and your integrity. Like you said, your body wants you to feel good and if you just acknowledge what doesn't feel good instead of trying to think your way into a PhD of dogma and just feel like, did that feel good or didn't it feel good, it's really that simple.

Courtney : 34:50

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Courtney : 36:47

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Courtney : 38:20

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Courtney : 38:59

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Courtney : 40:38

Yeah, yeah, for two years, like I said, I white knuckled it and I beat myself up so bad and to the point where I went to my doctor because my anxiety was so bad that I got a script for Xanax. And then I had people give me they're like well, you're not sober if you take that and it's like this isn't Miss, fuck us Right. But that's what I'm saying, like that type of attitude and mentality where it's just like but I don't abuse this, and why are you trying to tell me what's right or wrong for me. I did this for two years and, like I said, I was like around. My cycle was the absolute worst and I just needed something to help, to just make it a little bit easier.

Colleen: 41:27

Yeah, I think it's so important. What I do, what you do, is to expand the recovery community and to that's why I speak up, you know, even about having a drink or doing the things, because my life is mine and it's an experiment and ultimately I'm responsible for it and we just. You know, science shows that this all or nothing, black or white sobriety is defined by what some jackass says it is. It's like no, we have to give people, because that keeps people out of recovery and then, if they do quote, slip up, then they end up face planning and because there's no support, and I think expanding the conversation and having conversations and letting people look behind the curtain that there is no one right answer. There's as many ways to recover as there are people.

Courtney : 42:27

Yeah, I did this interview a couple of years ago. For this it was a nonprofit and they were trying to expand the topic of recovery. And I was like listen, you can't. This is not. You're looking for yes or no answers. I was like and this is so.

Courtney : 42:51

There's a lot of gray areas, like, because there are people who are able to drink alcohol but have a problem with prescription pills. There are people who have heroin addictions but then are able to drink alcohol after it. There are, like it just goes on and on, and I might, somebody might be like whoa, but it's the truth. I've known heroin addicts to get clean and then drink afterwards. Some cross addicts, some didn't and are fine.

Courtney : 43:24

A lot of people who have gotten off opiates or prescription pills still drink, and drinking it's like a couple drinks for them through a whole year. You know, same thing People who quit drinking alcohol then go and smoke pot, like. So I'm like it's not, you can't just abstain for anything, because then too, like, if you are prescribed a prescription medication and you are not abusing it and it's helping you, aid in your life and making it a little bit easier, then why are they called? Why are they told they're not sober. You know, like, who makes these roles, but that's what I was trying to tell this woman interviewing me. I was like you're looking for something that I can't. You just this is how it is.

Colleen: 44:07

Yeah. You know, and they, they quote air quotes around it. They don't make the roles and the more of us that and I do really think the dam's breaking on recovery and how you define it and I think we are becoming and those people can just stand in their echo chambers and agree with each other and that's fine. Like, don't listen to my podcast, it's fine. So stop for you.

Courtney : 44:34

But true, warning, right. But then the same thing too what if you're a sex addict? Are you never supposed to have sex again? Like, there's just so many. There's so many areas where you just have to be like, well, if that works for you, that works for you For me. In this podcast and on my platform, I speak to people who cannot drink alcohol at all, at all At all, where they have tried and tried and tried. I just got, I just got hit on Instagram for this person. She was telling me that I was, the information I was spreading was dangerous, because there are people who can moderate and I'm like well, that's for your community, but like the people I'm speaking to get to the point where they just can't have one anymore and that's where it's gotten to them, you know so alcohol is a poison.

Colleen: 45:24

So the air, you're not dangerous for saying the safest bet is zero alcohol. I mean, they're showing. The World Health Organization just came out and said you know, zero drinks is the safe amount of drinks. After that there's some risk and we take risks all the time. There's no judgment. But for somebody to say that it's dangerous, now I think where it could be dangerous is if somebody who does come back from an addiction and moderate rate and then hold that you know. But then you just go start your own community like people, let people do themselves. You know, and I think it's polarization where, where we all have to agree on 10 out of 10 things, like I bet we all agree on about 98% of the things, can we start with those conversations and then give everybody space? Why not?

Courtney : 46:18

Yeah, because some I mean all of the language could be dangerous to it. All depends on who's receiving it. Where they could they get? You know what I mean? Like it's like oh, somebody could have just been. Like, oh, okay, well, courtney says that here you know my heroin addiction. I can go and then drink, drink cocktails. It's just anybody can perceive something that they read and take it and spend it how they want.

Colleen: 46:45

If you want to talk about addiction, we are all addicted to our phones. Low break addiction in our society between coffee and sugar and phones. Like ain't nobody sober? No, you know so. And if you remove the frameworks of what society, you know, they label prescription drugs where they we call those medications and then we have drugs and then alcohol gets its own category on a big pedestal with a party pack. And it's like, if you look at substances and behaviors, they're and you just remove that's emotional sobriety, like it's all neutral. Alcohol isn't good or bad, sex isn't good or bad, heroin isn't good or bad, you know. It's like how is it affecting you? Are you honoring your body? And nobody's sober. It's impossible to go through life without ever doing anything that alters your state of consciousness, unless you wear a robe and live in a cave and you call yourself a monk. But for the rest of us, we are living in digital addiction. It's so nobody's sober.

Courtney : 47:43

All right, I mean, I'm addicted to my stories, so, but hey, that's at the end of the night for me. I'm like this is my, this is my wind down, this is me time, and I will watch my real housewives of whatever city that they put on that TV.

Colleen: 47:59

Oh, so you mean stories, not Instagram stories? No, no no. Like soap operas, like we used to call those. Go watch our stories, oh my God, yeah, it's.

Courtney : 48:07

My grandma always used to say when she used to tape I had days of our lives, and then I would call her at nine, and she'd be like John and Marlena, mm. Hmm, god, I love when Marlena was possessed by the demon. I thought that was a little crazy. It was, but it was hilarious. But yeah, jerry would always be like I'm watching my story, so that's what I call them, but yeah. But I want you, though, to just kind of touch up on it, because I liked it as well how to rewaken the brain after addiction.

Colleen: 48:34

Okay. So this is where understanding what addiction is and it is where we start using because we want pleasure and then if we don't give our brain dopamine balance time to reset in between your phone or your hair and whatever you're using, then you end up with an imbalance because the brain, the homeostasis it's, it's pushing down on your pain. So then we end up using to avoid the pain of not using and understanding that the brain has to recalibrate that dopamine and that there are ways that you can accelerate that process, like some of the things that I do in my program. We have fun little challenges Like I take. I take 30 seconds to 90 seconds of a cold shower, like bringing discomfort into your life on your own terms and building your resilience.

Colleen: 49:34

You know, I read that book, the subtle art of not giving a fuck, by Mark Manson, and he's got this quote. That's amazing and it's something like the. The desire to have a positive experience is in itself a negative experience. Wanting desire because you don't have what you want and acceptance of discomfort or negative experience is in itself a positive experience. So, understanding that this is a brain chemistry issue and that the brain can heal you know it's I believe not everybody does, and you don't have to agree with me, but I believe that one of the biggest fallacies out there is that you have the brain of an addict before you ever have your first drink, like you're born an alcoholic. Or that after you quit drinking or get off your VR addiction, that somehow you still have the brain of an addict, and science shows that that is not true. Neuroplasticity is very real and, just like you can learn to walk and talk again after a stroke, you can learn, you can reset your, your pain, pleasure, balance in your brain and you can learn to listen to your body and lean in and then lean back. You know, it's like that moment when watching TV goes from being fun and rewarding to your body's like could we get up and take a walk or do something else? Like come on? Yeah. Like it's not the TV that's the problem. It's not, it's learning how to listen to your body, yeah.

Colleen: 51:11

So, and the more you listen to your body in real time and give your body what it needs, as well as leaning into little bits of discomfort here and there, the cold shower or, emotionally speaking, your truth when somebody says something you don't agree with, and instead of suppressing your emotions and eating, you know, antacids.

Colleen: 51:32

Speaking the truth, leaning into discomfort is a way and I think on like YouTube and stuff, you'll see dopamine fasting and all of that but regulating your phone use. You know that moment when you're no longer conscious and you're in a habituated pattern, pulling out of it, which is mildly discomfort. So you have to train that, that muscle memory of how to be uncomfortable for a hot second, because the reward then is coming. So, switching from instant gratification to more long-term goals and realizing that you can alter your brain chemistry with every single decision that you ever make, that's the neuroplasticity is that you, you, you do something that's uncomfortable, you survive and your brain says, oh, that was okay, and a new neural pathway is born and then you build on that in other contexts and that's how you grow. That's how you grow non-addictive behaviors in your brain.

Courtney : 52:34

Let's talk about this shower real quick, because I've been, I've been trying because so I had. I am on a new healing path. I have a 19 month old and I am trying to. So now I'm I'm starting to lose the weight. I had some back issues, so I'm not, I'm in a new path. So I was like, all right, I'm gonna try this cool thing. I mean, I think I can make it like three seconds so cold okay.

Colleen: 53:07

So first of all, the first time I did it, like my body went into this involuntary like I don't know Wim Hop breathing right. Sure, I fucking nailed it right there. And the only reason I did it was because my brother was talking about doing it and I was like, okay, I'm doing it. And I listened to Joe Rogan and, I think, andrew Huberman talk about it and I was like, okay, I'm in. So I think like where I would start, or where I start with my clients, is I'll say, okay, start by splashing cold water on your face. And then I find, just personally, I find it easier to, after I take my hot, wonderful shower, to turn the water cold. It is much. It's a bigger ask to get my body to step into a cold shower first thing in the morning, but I'm finding the more I do these things, the easier it gets. Now I can stand there for three minutes in the cold water and it's not even a big deal. Do you know that sensation when you tweeze your eyebrows and the first time you do it you're like, holy fuck, that hurts so bad and you crying, yeah, in a few years later, yeah, you hold your skin or whatever. It's like not even a thing. Right, that is what I'm experiencing with the cold. Like at some point my resilience has grown yes, what it is.

Colleen: 54:32

But before I started cold showers, I started. I live in Indiana. I, every single day for the last two years I go for a walk first thing in the morning in the cold, so that acclimated my body. So at one point I was the biggest snowflake where I had about a point five temperature variation where I was comfortable. So if it's sixty, nine point five, I'm cold and if it's seventy point five, I'm fucking hot. Yeah, so now I've worked on, you know, expanding the comfort zone of my body.

Colleen: 55:02

So if you want to work with the cold shower, first of all, it's one of the best things you can do for your brain and your dopamine and I think it's good for your skin and all sorts of things. But start slow, splash cold water on your face, you know, just get yourself to turn the water. But then at some point, like I had to practice, where I I'm not contorting my body, like I'm standing in the cold and I'm not clenching the fuck out of myself and bite right thing, like I can do this and making myself relax, but it's it's. It's like bicep reps you don't pick up a hundred pound weight and do 87. You start with bike on weight, you know right?

Courtney : 55:39

well, I do. I have done in the past month where I do cold, I have one of those rollers, so I've been doing that on my face and but I'm a nighttime shower person, is that going to prevent me from falling asleep or no?

Colleen: 55:55

I don't know, ask your body. Okay, you know, if the only thing I could say is, maybe for nighttime, reverse it where you get in and it's cold, and then the reward is the warmth yeah, because there is power in hot and cold therapy.

Courtney : 56:12

I mean these, these, but sometimes you know, I mean those cold plunge tubs. Now are all the rage that you see on. I see them on all of Instagram, but I'm just like God. I wonder if I could ever submerge my body into that for three minutes. I don't know, I might be. I might be messaging you in a year and be like guess what I did. I tell you how.

Colleen: 56:32

I'm gonna do it and I'm all talk and I'm gonna say this, and so I'll have to do it, but at my lake going up there, because how do you do it? You jump in and then you have to get out. So I'm gonna like jump into my lake to where it takes me a couple minutes. You know it'll take me a minute or so to get out and then I can say I did it. But getting your body to do it it's like trying to put the dog in the car on the way to the vet. It's called fuck you and no I got a build up.

Courtney : 56:59

Yeah, cuz my friend Marnie told me she said that she's like do do a hot shower and then just put it on afterwards. She's like it's the best and I try it.

Colleen: 57:08

I'm like what. I would dare say it's enjoyable, but I would dare say I had to do it 15 times before I was like okay, I knew this do all of your clients now love it.

Courtney : 57:21

Who do it?

Colleen: 57:25

okay, but but we get some funny stories about screaming or whatever, like they'll try it right. That's just the whole. Just expanding your comfort zone with silly and fun things, like if you don't want to do the cold, then like go do five push-ups or go walk around your house, like it's those little things. When you are, when you're coming out of addiction, your window of tolerance for your nervous system is so tiny and there's a thousand fun ways to do it. And if cold water, like I wouldn't have said I wanted to do that, but if, if you would have told me all the benefits, like I'm really analytical once.

Colleen: 58:01

I go around the benefits. That is like I'm in, I'm gonna do that right.

Courtney : 58:05

That's why I like looked after my back.

Colleen: 58:07

I'm like I should put this in the process of that, the healing toolkit that I need to do, you know yeah, but you know also there's the balance of be kind, you know, and pain, and your back hurts like there's no right answer. There's what you do, there's what you don't do and how it works out. So, yes, I come to enjoy it. As I come to enjoy the experience, I get such a dopamine rush that I I'm not lying when I say that at first I just liked telling people I did. It sounded bad ass. Now I honestly say I really do like this and maybe I will get one of those fucking expensive cold things, but I'm working up to it.

Courtney : 58:52

Listen, I will say for that cold plunge company, they did it right, because these people shift off a bunch of those tubs to influencers on social media and I just see them over and over again. So the marketing on that, bravo. And I think too.

Colleen: 59:10

I think they went on Shark Tank, so I think they were a Shark Tank business, but it worked well what I want, because two years ago I was all about the infrared sauna and I oh yeah, you know five, seven thousand dollars on what. So if anybody's listening to this and you just create one device that's got your cold on the one side on your head shrinker, you know you get in the hot on the other I would buy that.

Courtney : 59:35

So if anything, that'd be great you should create it yeah, I'm not an engineer well, where can the listeners of the Sober Vibes podcast find you?

Colleen: 59:49

so I'm recover with Colleen everywhere. Colleen is C-O-L-L-E-E-N, so on Instagram it's at recover with Colleen. My website is recover with Colleencom I think I'm that on LinkedIn and Facebook, and I have a private group on Facebook, also called with Carp recover with Colleen. So it's real simple. And your podcast, oh yeah, and my podcast.

Courtney : 1:00:11

Yeah well, good, good, well, thank you so much for being on the podcast and for sharing all your knowledge and, like I said, congratulations to you on what it will be three years here in a couple days. Congrats. Do you have plans for that?

Colleen: 1:00:26

I'm doing a webinar on that day, so I don't know, maybe I don't know. No, I don't really have any plans, but it's also my ex-husband's birthday, which is fucking hilarious to me. So that's you know. We said I drank too much. Well, happy birthday right.

Courtney : 1:00:48

Look at me now, sir. Look at me now. Well, thank you again, colleen. And all of Colleen's informations will be connected in the show notes below, so make sure you check her out and go follow her on Instagram.

Colleen: 1:01:01

Thanks, colleen thank you, courtney, I'll talk to you soon.