Sober Vibes Podcast

Why Focusing on Avoidance Can Hurt your Sobriety w/ Tim Phillips

• Courtney /Tim Phillips • Season 6 • Episode 216

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Episode 216: Why focusing on avoidance can hurt your Sobriety w/ Tim Phillips

In episode 216 of the Sober Vibes podcast, Courtney Andersen welcomes Tim Phillips to the show and discusses how focusing on avoidance can hurt one's sobriety. Tim Phillips shares his powerful story of going from rock bottom to rehab and discovering what works for him beyond traditional 12-step programs.

Tim Phillips is the host of the Sober and Happy Podcast and an advocate for individuals seeking to live a sober, fulfilling life

What you will learn in this episode:

  • Tim's journey from morning bartender to sustained sobriety since 2011
  • Why the 12-step model works for some but not everyone
  • How trauma healing fits into recovery
  • The dangers of making your world smaller through avoidance
  • Why exposure therapy can be valuable in recovery
  • Building confidence by facing fears with proper support
  • The importance of developing self-trust in your sobriety journey

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Listen to episode 129 with Thomas White to learn more about CBD.

Resources Mentioned:

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Courtney Andersen:

Welcome back to another episode of Sober Vibes podcast. I'm your host and sober coach, Courtney Anderson. I am also your go-to guide with living life without booze. You are listening to episode 216. I got a good one today. My guest's name is Tim Phillips and Tim is the host of the Sober and Happy podcast and he's an advocate for individuals seeking to live a sober, fulfilling life.

Courtney Andersen:

What I loved most about this conversation is actually what we didn't really have kind of planned to talk about. We talked about, so it was a really great, open, honest communication and it went there about AA and he was in the program too. So he had this personal experience and he went from rehab to 12 steps to discovering his own path of recovery, which I think that a lot of people need to do when it comes to discovering your own path of recovery and sobriety and what works best for you. But then we do get into the topic of what I wanted to talk about mainly, but that was why focusing on avoidance can hurt your sobriety, can hurt your sobriety. I'm one for that exposure therapy almost to some of this, to all of it when it comes down to it, but especially to when you're ready okay, Just when you're ready. But I have found, especially from my experience in this, it's like because there were some things that I waited to do and I wish I just would have ripped that band-aid off sooner. Now don't get it twisted.

Courtney Andersen:

If you read my book, you know that I've said in there, like those first 30 days, you do need to take a step back and I do believe on that, on like your social life and putting yourself in those triggering situations. But you can work yourself up to it with putting yourself out there, I do believe, and exposing yourself, Because when it comes to this thing called an alcohol-free life, you do have to get uncomfortable to be comfortable in this life that you begin living, because alcohol is everywhere. You're not going to escape it nowadays and truly I don't think you ever will. I think now what's happening is there's more alcohol-free options, there's more people who will do things that don't involve drinking or don't want to. You could go meet up for a coffee, right, but alcohol is everywhere and it's very heavily influenced and embedded into our culture.

Courtney Andersen:

So I do really appreciate Tim's perspective and the tips that he shares in his story. He's got a great story. I hope you enjoy this episode, as always, if you are enjoying the podcast and you haven't yet, please review and subscribe to the show. All right, Keep on trucking out there and kicking ass. Hey, Tim, Welcome to the Sober Vibes podcast. I'm excited to talk to you today.

Tim Phillips:

Thank you for having me on. I'm excited to do this.

Courtney Andersen:

So when did you get sober? Share your story with the good people of the world.

Tim Phillips:

So I got sober back in 2011. Okay, and really, what led to that is the three years leading up to me. Getting sober was by far the most pathetic part of my drinking. A lot of times, if you follow people's drinking stories, you start it's fun, then it's fun with the little consequences, then it's a lot of consequences, a little bit of fun, and then at the end it's just nothing but consequences. Right, so my last three years was just pathetic.

Tim Phillips:

So I got to the point that I couldn't hold down the job. The only job I had was a morning bartending gig, and so for three years, I crashed in a dirty house with one of my morning bartending clients and my whole life just boiled down to getting up, going to that morning bartending gig, getting as drunk as possible for four hours, hoping to make enough tips for a pack of cigarettes, a bottle of alcohol and gas to make it back. Food was optional. So my life got to that point, and the thing is is it wasn't that I at that point I wasn't in denial about my alcoholism, like I knew it was bad, I knew it wasn't going to get better, I knew I was going to die from it, but I didn't know I could get better. I did not know anybody who drank like me, who got sober. Yeah, so I just accepted my destiny, that I was probably going to drink myself to death. So what changed was it was a moment of clarity for me and I was a blackout drinker and pretty much every day so like my morning would consist with like trying to piece together the day before.

Tim Phillips:

Yeah, so in the evening my roommate came and knocked on my bedroom door and he's like hey, your mom's here to pick you up for dinner. She says you guys had plans. Bedroom door. And he's like hey, your mom's here to pick you up for dinner. She says you guys had plans. And I didn't remember making plans with my mom. But I, just because I was embarrassed about being a blackout drinker when people would tell me things I didn't remember, I would never admit it, I just went along with it.

Tim Phillips:

So I got up, got my mom's car, got dressed, got my mom's car and we go to dinner. And we're sitting at that dinner table, my mom starts talking to me about rehab and I start getting pissed because, like I hated when people talked to me about my drinking and when people did, my goal was to make that conversation so uncomfortable for them that we wouldn't have it again. And I thought in my head. I thought, like me and my mom have already went through this, like she should know better. And so I started getting more angry and I excused myself to go to the bathroom.

Tim Phillips:

And I'm sitting in the bathroom and I'm just trying to calm down and not really like so I don't go off on her trying to collect my thoughts because I was going to go out there and I was going to do that. I was going to make that conversation as uncomfortable as possible, that my mom would never bring up rehab again. I'm about to leave the bathroom and my phone buzzes. I get a text message and I look down at the text message and it's from a friend. But I see the text message below. That was the conversation me and my mom had. So just out of curiosity I clicked on it because I wanted to remember making dinner plans and I see a text from me that told my mom that I'm done and if you find me a rehab, I will try to get sober. So at that realization I realized my mom's talking to me about rehab, because I asked yeah.

Tim Phillips:

And then in my head I fast forwarded about a minute and I thought of just how close I was to going out to that table at this restaurant and breaking my mom's heart in front of a restaurant full of people, when she's sitting out there thinking that all her prayers have been answered Right. And so at that moment, like I got a good glimpse at who I'd become. That wasn't the worst thing I'd done to my mom, it wasn't that. It was just the first time that I saw through all the it only hurts me, all of those excuses and all the justifications, and I really saw what I was doing to the people around me. And so I saw myself for the first time, just clearly, without all the distraction, without all the blurriness, and it absolutely disgusted me.

Tim Phillips:

And I'll tell you, I didn't think that I was going to be able to get sober and stay sober. But at that moment I knew I was willing to try. So I went down, I sat down at the table, I looked at my mom and I said, All right, let's talk about rehab. And then, of course, I'm an alcoholic. I had conditions. It was like the middle of June. I didn't want to spend 4th of July in rehab. So I told my mom, I said I'll go anytime after the 4th of July, and so I was living in California at the time. She found a rehab in Michigan.

Courtney Andersen:

Oh, I'm in Michigan. What's your? What do you say? Which rehab? It is AFR, they're not, they're closed down now, okay, they didn't.

Tim Phillips:

What city was it? Uh, battle creek. Okay, yeah, they didn't survive covid. So yeah, and so I said not before july 4th. And she dropped me off at the airport about 6 am on july 5th and I was off to michigan and little did I know I was never going to drink again from that day.

Courtney Andersen:

That's pretty impressive. You kept that word because a lot of people would have not. They would have been like, cause that was a you know a couple of weeks, three, three, four weeks, um, and then you went. So good for you for keeping your word to your mother.

Tim Phillips:

I would like, I'd love to take a lot of credit for that but it also was there was a lot of things that was going on in my life that were gonna bubble up and I was gonna like I was, you know, I was stealing a little money from the bar. It was getting to the point that like it was gonna start being noticeable. So I also saw my life imploding really short, being exposed for a lot of things. So a lot of it was like fear too.

Courtney Andersen:

Yeah, absolutely I mean. But you still kept your word and you went. So how long were you in rehab for?

Tim Phillips:

So I was in there for two months. So the program I went to was self-paced and I was absolutely paranoid to leave. Like it was pretty much a lockdown rehab facility. Yeah, you stayed in there, you didn't go out. So 60 days no exposure to alcohol at all, like I didn't even have to pass by a store, and so I was scared whether or not I was going to be able to stay sober out of that rehab. And once I got sober and like like everything cleared up and I really saw my life for what it was, I was so paranoid to go back to it that I dragged my feet in that program until they realized what I was doing and they're like you've been here long enough, you got to go.

Courtney Andersen:

Yeah, I sometimes wonder, though, if that's a good thing to do with rehabs, of with not giving the patients exposure, because then you get out, you're in that rehab bubble, then you get out right, and it's like then you're exposed to it all over again where.

Tim Phillips:

I don't know if rehabs do enough education on the after of what's going to happen to you when you get, when you go out and live and you get out of that rehab bubble yeah, I was there for 60 days and I sat down maybe two hours with the relapse prevention counselor about how to deal with life outside of it and being a lot of us were from out of state so they would take us to a van to the airport and drop us off. So you go from no exposure to walking by a bunch of airport bars and one guy that graduated a week before me. He drank at the airport.

Courtney Andersen:

Yeah, yeah, Because it's jarring. It's jarring, but I do have to say you came to Michigan at the best time in Michigan that summer and the fall time. It's not a bad gig here. Currently we're in the pits of hell. So, you came to rehab at the right time, so you got out of rehab. After 60 days you go back to California.

Tim Phillips:

Yeah.

Courtney Andersen:

And then, what was your plan? What was it that you did afterwards?

Tim Phillips:

So my original plan like in rehab, they would bring meetings in and I did a couple AA meetings and I just wasn't vibing with AA but I really enjoyed smart recovery. So my plan was to do smart recovery when I got out. What I discovered quickly is there was no smart recovery meetings at Sacramento at the time. So my options were really limited and I had an because at this point in my life when I had nothing. So when I got out of rehab I ended up on my mom's couch. So I'm 34 years old, living with my mom again and I had a contract with my mom with certain agreements and part of it was I was I had to go to meetings. So since Smart Recovery wasn't there, I started going to AA meetings, at first out of obligation, but then I really did enjoy the community and the support from that.

Courtney Andersen:

So what did you notice with your life after you got sober? How did it improve?

Tim Phillips:

I would say it improved quickly. The first thing I noticed like when you're being proactive about fixing your life, the universe really starts to pitch in. So like when I got sober, like I had, I hadn't paid taxes, I hadn't even filed taxes in like 12 years.

Courtney Andersen:

Yeah.

Tim Phillips:

I had a suspended license in two separate states. I'm pretty sure I had a warrant out of Arizona for a failure to appear for a traffic ticket. So I get out of rehab and I'm like, okay, these are the things I need to fix. And at that time I didn't have a job. I had time so I could sit on hold. So I listed everything out. Then, like the DMV thing, I called California DMV. They're like you have to get Arizona DMV fixed first. And then I called Arizona and they're like well, we can't get the suspension off your license because California has a hold.

Tim Phillips:

And I went back and forth one to the other and finally, like I talked to the girl that answered the phone at California DMV and I explained to her I'm like, look like I'm trying to fix my life. I just got out of rehab. You're telling me this, they're telling me this. I don't know how to fix it, please help me. And she put me on hold and then, like 45 minutes, she comes back later. And the reason why it took so long is because she called Arizona DMV herself and waited on hold for 45 minutes.

Tim Phillips:

And those two DMV officers worked together and figured out how to fix my license problem and, like I said, like if you look at like agencies with the worst reputation, dmv is probably top 10. But yet, like, as soon as I decided like okay, I'm going to fix my life and I was honest about like to this to this lady on the phone like all of a sudden the universe started. So I'm not saying everything went great, because plenty went wrong, but things do start falling into place. Like the universe will help you but you got to help yourself. Yeah.

Courtney Andersen:

And you yourself, yeah, and you got yeah and that's something I say too where the universe has to catch up to what your body is, what you're like physically and mentally doing. So it does take some time. So just because you quit day one, you quit drinking one day, it doesn't mean everything's going to be fixed and it's a period of time and that healing. That's why I think those first 90 days are so important.

Courtney Andersen:

When you start doing the right thing for yourself and you start with some self love, then it just it does take some time. When I gave birth to my son, the labor and delivery nurse told me she was like it's going to take you your mind is going to take some time to catch up with your body, what your body just did. Church took me a couple months to catch up with what I did and it's no different than sobriety. It just takes some time and you have to allow that time and energy and the universe to match what you're doing.

Tim Phillips:

Yeah, and the physical part, like if you're like, like I said I was, I didn't draw sober breath for three years. I drank every waking moment. So like the recovery from that, like your brain has to rewire Unlike if people are struggling with, like I was struggling with balance issues, I was, I had all kinds of weird neurological things going on and what do some research? What I found is it was post acute withdrawal syndrome going on and what through some research, what I found is it was post-acute withdrawal syndrome like my brain was literally having I created neural pathways to solve all my problems in my brain with alcohol so it's like, hey, I'm stressed, I gotta go to the alcohol part of the brain and then when you remove the alcohol, it tries to go there, finds out that store is closed and it freaks out.

Tim Phillips:

so you actually have to long enough actually reroute your brain to use what your natural parts of your brain to handle stress and to handle all of those emotions. So that was a very challenging part and I probably had symptoms of post-acute withdrawal syndrome for almost 18 months.

Courtney Andersen:

Yeah, and that is pause. So, and that pause can last. Up to a person it can last, and not everybody, because people will freak out. I had one person be like didn't want to quit drinking and it was just an excuse because of pause, because they read it could last up to two years. But that's the type of stuff too. I'm sure your sleep, did your sleep have to adjust as well?

Courtney Andersen:

Oh, my sleep was wrecked yeah right, but it is exactly what you're talking about, about the pathways in your brain, and it's a new habit that you have to start living in a new lifestyle, so it does take some time.

Tim Phillips:

Yeah.

Courtney Andersen:

So for somebody because you've been sober since 2011,. After you told me, before you were in the 12 steps for six years.

Tim Phillips:

Yeah.

Courtney Andersen:

After six years. Then what did you? What did you then? Do At what point did you know it was time for you to get some more or some more help, because this is a process of long-term recovery. Yes, yeah.

Tim Phillips:

So I will. I will tell you like I enjoyed a lot of things about 12 Steps.

Tim Phillips:

I enjoyed the community that's second to none To have a group of people that are going through exactly what you have, or have gone through it before, to have someone look you in the eyes and say, yes, I understand what you're going through and they truly do. You can't replace that. But there was parts of the program that just never sat right with me from the very beginning. But like I was still saying sober, and so I was like, well, even though it doesn't make sense to me, it seems to be working. So I just kept pushing through that and I'd push those, like that gut feeling like I think there's something else you need to be doing. I'd push those away. And if I would talk to anyone in AA, they would tell me that's just my ego talking trying to make you leave AA. Everybody that leaves AA gets drunk, and so they were also reinforcing that fear inside of me that if you leave AA you're going to get drunk, and I was petrified of going back to that life because I knew I wasn't going to survive.

Courtney Andersen:

Yeah.

Tim Phillips:

So what happened is, just over the course of time, like I worked my steps and I was hardcore, I was. I held a service commitment for every single month the entire six years I was there, I sponsored guys, I had book studies out of my house, I was speaking, I was doing book studies at conferences Like when I say I was like in, I was all in, but I could never push down that feeling. So what happened is, at about five and a half years sober, I moved to Phoenix where I live now and I'd lived here in college before and I just I didn't like Sacramento so I decided to move back here and I got a sponsor here and when I talked to him about that, what he told me when first thing he did is and he was an old-timer, like the guy literally knew Bill Wilson, like that's, that's how old he was. The guy's been sober for like 50 years. He traveled the country speaking for AA.

Courtney Andersen:

Amazing, he was in it, right.

Tim Phillips:

Yeah, he was an amazing man. So he opens up his book and I'm thinking, oh great, here we go again. He's going to tell me it's my ego. And he opens it up to the works with the other section and he reads me this section. He goes if your man thinks that there's another way, and I'll paraphrase it. He's like encourage him to follow his heart. We do not have the monopoly on spirituality. And then he closes his book and he says Tim, he says, if, whatever path you decide for recovery, you try half as hard as you've tried to make AA work, he's like you're going to be just fine. And he's like and if anybody from AA gives you shit, he's like tell them to go read their own damn book.

Courtney Andersen:

A slow clap to this man who is older than dirt.

Tim Phillips:

And the thing is like, at that point I still, at six years, sober, I still didn't trust my own intuition. And so and a lot of that was just because of years of not trusting that drinking because there is a reason not to trust my own intuition I made bad choice after bad choice.

Courtney Andersen:

Right.

Tim Phillips:

Bad choice, but then when you get in a program where the support model is to always ask your sponsor, yeah, that never gives you a chance to start trusting yourself because you're always running everything by your sponsor and, as loving and caring as most sponsors are, most of them are not qualified to handle a lot of the things that you may be going through. Sponsors aren't trauma therapists and so if you're dealing with something that may be trauma, where the foundation is trauma, you may get bad advice. Your intuition may be telling you something right, but if your sponsor gives you bad advice now, once again, it's reinforcing that you can't trust yourself. So what I needed like I needed someone that I trusted and looked up to in the AA program to give me permission and tell me it was going to be okay.

Courtney Andersen:

Yeah, I legit just had this conversation with my sister the other day because I don't know, tim, if you are a fan of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

Tim Phillips:

No, but I know of the show.

Courtney Andersen:

Okay, so there is and this is a thing. Again, this isn't about bashing AA, but this has to come in. How I do my coaching program is that I want to set people up for success where they're not, in a year to two to three years, needing to ask permission of what they should be doing, because you have got to start learning to trust yourself in what is right for you and not having someone tell you what you should be doing. So, going back to the Real Housewives, this past week's episode and by the time this airs, this episode will air in March, so this was a February episode Dorit is dealing with her husband who is newly sober and he brings his sponsor over to their house to help communicate that he wants a separation and a divorce. Okay, and at this time this man was like four months sober. I don't think that's appropriate. And why I was having this conversation with my sister? Because a man she dated, the sponsor, was very much involved in a relationship and this person was over 10 years sober. It's like what are we doing here? And that's where I come from.

Courtney Andersen:

I think that that is not going back. This isn't qualified therapist. This is not a therapist. This is nothing of any type of life coaching, certifications, trauma certification none of that. Coaching certifications, trauma certification, none of that. It's just based off what we have been learning since the early 40s, late 30s, right, you know what I mean. So that's where I think.

Courtney Andersen:

Then that is forming a codependency with somebody and it's not healthy, it's not. You know what I mean. And I was telling my sister and I was like for somebody who doesn't understand, going back to the Beverly Hills housewives we talk a lot about Bravo on the show but for somebody who, great their husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever, is getting sober, they go through this process and you're supporting them because they're doing better for themselves, and then all of a sudden to get hit by that and not understanding how that program operates from that loved one's point of view, that has got to be very hurtful and in a situation where it's like two against one, and why is this one person having a say into what our life has been like for like the last 15 years? So I just had to add that in, because I legit.

Courtney Andersen:

Just talked about this with my sister and that's where part of the program I don't agree with I just don't.

Courtney Andersen:

I don't Because you do, because what is the lessons? And this is why I liked your old timer guy yes, go out and figure it out for yourself, put in the energy towards something else and see if that works for you, because after six years even before that you obviously were searching for something else that your soul needed. Exact Nature is a proud sponsor of the podcast because we are both mission aligned. Both myself and exact nature are here to help support you in your sobriety. Exact nature offers safe, healthy, cbd based products of the cravings and changes in mood, focus and sleep that are a part of getting sober.

Courtney Andersen:

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Tim Phillips:

I I tell everybody and this kind of goes back to that like if AA works for you like I'm not trying to talk anybody to stop doing what's working for them, but if it's not working for you and you are seriously trying, like then there are other options and I think aa was good for what they built. But you have to take into context that this was a bunch of white businessmen who are created, who are who are dealing with alcoholism to help build this program and they built it around like their problems. So like not only are your sponsors not trauma therapists. If you look at the actual steps, there's part in there that, like I've heard there's a lot of studies that say and it goes anywhere from like 80 to 90% of people who have serious addiction problems have childhood trauma. That's important. So you need to heal from that.

Tim Phillips:

So if you look at the steps when you're going through the resentment, part of the thing tells you at least who you're resentful, why, and then the last step of that is that you have to find your part in it. So I understand, like if I'm mad at my boss which that's one of the examples in the book like there's probably going to be a part in it. And it's really important for me to look down and say like, what's my part in my argument with my boss? That's good for realizing it and for seeing if I need to change. But if you're, if you're work bringing someone through the step that had some serious childhood trauma and they're fine and they're feeling it for the first time without stuffing down all their emotions, and they're finally sharing it and they're finally getting it out, and you look at them and you say, well, what was your part in it? I know like that is going to re-traumatize them and like it's almost victim blaming.

Courtney Andersen:

It is then to ask a person well, what was the part that you played in? And being molested when you were three, like what exactly that's?

Tim Phillips:

it's disturbing it is, and when I and so I started when I was sponsoring guys like, if I'm talking and uh, and with men also, like, uh, we're not immune to sexual abuse growing up, but we're also talked to stuff it down even more because, like, guys don't talk about things like that and there's all kinds of layers to it. So so if I'm working with a guy, working him through his steps, and he tells me about being sexually abused when he was a kid, there's a chance that I'm the first person he's shared that with.

Tim Phillips:

And I'm like I'm not going to ask him what his part is in it.

Tim Phillips:

What I'm going to do is I'm going to listen to him as a friend and I'm also not a qualified therapist, you know, if I have something I could relate with them, I'll relate with them and then I'll tell them to go get therapy. But and so I did that. And then one of the guys I sponsored mentioned in a meeting how helpful it was that like I didn't make him try to find his part in some childhood abuse that he had. And I got pulled aside by some old timers after the meeting telling me that how dare I change their program? And that was like I was like whoa and I tried to explain to them and they're like this program's been working for 70 years, like, and you just can't come in and change it. Like I just got reprimanded and just chewed out.

Courtney Andersen:

Yeah, well, it's, but it's. But that's the thing. That's where the delusion is. It's like well, no, it has not worked for everybody. For 70 years it works for about 5% of people.

Courtney Andersen:

Exactly, and that is the thing, and I participated in the program too. So this is where and I am one that and I like you, I took what I wanted and I left the rest. And I agree there's I will never say for people not to go, because it has helped people and everybody needs to go explore that to see if that's something for them. And that's where I say on that but there's this kind of stuff where it's like it's not, this isn't the end, all be all. And I'm also too a person from where some people, if they're going to smoke pot to help them quit drinking, that's their decision. I can't tell them no.

Courtney Andersen:

Or if they're taking anti-anxiety medication, I'm not going to be like, well, you're not sober, like that's not for me to say. It's just like, and I it's almost like we've gotten to a point in this area where everybody wants to swing their dicks around excuse me, tim of what they should be doing, and I'm not going to count somebody's side of the street. That's for you to figure out. Same thing of listening of what I have said to my clients, listening to your gut and making the decisions what's best for you. I'm not going to sit there and tell you not to go out at 90 days, like I'll go out and like do something fun, or like you have to still live. And in my experience in AA when I participated, this is how Sober Vibes was created, because I was listening to. Women want more than just go to work and go to a meeting.

Tim Phillips:

That was my life.

Courtney Andersen:

Yeah, A couple of years ago I interviewed a guy who was in AA and he said that it was like 14 years, I believe, and he said that there was other books that he realized he wasn't reading Like he was, like I realized I was just reading the same book for 14 years and then he went out and branched out. So was just reading the same book for 14 years and then he went out and branched out.

Tim Phillips:

So but for you when you branched out then did you enter in therapy so I had already been going to therapy, okay, uh, so like I've been, I started therapy. I'd say about it maybe a year sober, okay, and like, and I'm 13 years sober and I still do regular therapy.

Courtney Andersen:

That's great.

Tim Phillips:

Like, yeah, no, there's always something to work on. Like, because when you but you heal something, then there's like, and I want to continue to improve. So, like I was already going to therapy. Um, I honestly, when I decided to leave AA, I had no idea what I was going to do. You know, um, I started focusing a lot on self-help and then, and I'll tell you, like, when it all clicked, like because one of the things I had at that point of my sobriety, like my anxiety, was absolutely through the roof because, looking back in retrospect, I was absolutely paranoid of drinking still and like, and that's one of the things in AA, they keep you hypervigilant. You're never safe. The second you let your guard down, you're in danger. If you're confident, you're too confident. Now you're in danger. And so I was just so paranoid and I was doing the avoidance thing.

Tim Phillips:

I rarely went anywhere where alcohol was present. If I did, did you had your support group? And I love tony robbins. I always listened to his stuff and I decided to go to one of his conferences in la. Oh, how was that? I was. It was amazing. I got a walk on fire.

Tim Phillips:

That was the whole reason I went, but the part I got the most out of it was he was telling a story about white water rafters some of the first white water guides in the Colorado River back in, I don't know, the 30s or the 40s and he was talking about there's a part of the river where there's a huge obstacle and it's this stump that's stuck out of the ground and if they hit that stump, like they were going to flip over or they're going to pop the raft and it was a huge.

Tim Phillips:

It was a huge obstacle. So what the guides would do is they would it'd be calm water before that and they'd tell everyone look at that stump. Like we can't hit that stump and we need to go between these two rocks over here on the left, and everybody in that boat would paddle like hell. And they'd paddle so hard and they'd hit that stump every single time and they were just baffled. They saw people doing the putting forth the energy. They knew it was possible to go between the two rocks. And then one of them had an idea that said what if we don't even mention the stump and we just tell them, like there's our goal, let's paddle like hell to get there? So the next time they told them they said see those two rocks, that's our goal.

Tim Phillips:

Let's paddle towards there and let's get there and as soon as they did that, every single time they made to their destination, and Tony Robbins purpose of his story is.

Tim Phillips:

He says where your focus goes, your energy flows yes, and so I thought about, like my previous, and at that time I was probably like five years, so I was still in AA, and so I was thinking about like so much of my program. I was still focusing on the obstacle, I was still focusing on avoidance and I realized what happened is I went from obsessing about drinking to obsessing about not drinking, but alcohol was still controlling my life. So at that point I stepped back and I said, look, I ain't drank for six years. Yeah, I haven't even had a desire to drink, like I hadn't even been close at that point for like four and a half.

Courtney Andersen:

Yeah.

Tim Phillips:

I'm like I think I'm pretty safe now. That doesn't mean I think I'm never going to drink again or that I can, but I'm, like you know, I feel pretty confident that I could like explore some other things. So that's when I looked and I said, like what are goals, what are some of my dreams, what are the things that been put on hold from my drinking? And then, like only focusing on not drinking, and I said I'm gonna figure out what that spot between the two rocks is for me and I'm just gonna paddle like hell to try to get there and I'm not going to worry about the obstacle. And then, once I started doing that and like I didn't focus on not drinking and the fact that it's a danger, like I started noticing my anxiety start to lift.

Tim Phillips:

Yeah, I started noticing I was feeling better.

Courtney Andersen:

Right.

Tim Phillips:

And then I started exposing myself to doing more things you know and not out of the fear, like when I was in high school. Man, I loved bowling and I got sober and then I actually got so too drunk to bowl.

Courtney Andersen:

Right right right.

Tim Phillips:

But then when I got sober like I wanted to start bowling again, but I was scared to join a bowling league because Of alcohol. Lots of people drink on a bowling league.

Courtney Andersen:

Yes, they do, but that's the but. That's the whole thing of, that's the. That is where I don't agree with keep because you didn't get sober to then have your life become smaller and smaller and smaller. Your life was already small in your, your act of drinking and then to get sober like you want to do some living right. Two years after I got sober I went back to bartending and so many people told me you shouldn't be doing that. What if you get tempted? Because people just think with alcoholics, recovering alcoholics, as soon as they start seeing alcohol or beer they're like foaming out the mouth Like they have fucking rabies. Right, it's not the case.

Courtney Andersen:

So I went exposed myself and I left that day with a couple hundred bucks in my pocket, and being like that actually empowered me. Can everybody do that? Absolutely not. But going back to the avoidance when you start avoiding things, it's going to make your world smaller and smaller and in 2025, you cannot avoid alcohol. No, you can't, because then you're just with it. They sell it at movie theaters. Now it's all over. I don't blame the business owners of these places why they serve it, because it makes them money, but you cannot just sit there and get sober to then not live life. I don't agree upon that. It's like get sober and go go live. Yes, that first year, you need to protect your sobriety at all costs. Yeah, and we're start relearning how to live in baby steps in that first year.

Tim Phillips:

Yeah, and I agree completely with that.

Tim Phillips:

And I know, like you said in the beginning, and I don't want someone to listen to this podcast and say, hey, I heard two people who have been sober for a while say that I could go out to parties when they're 60 days sober, sober for a while, say that I could go out to parties like when they're 60 days sober and it's, and I admit, like straight out of rehab, like I tried that I wanted to still shoot pool on a Thursday night pool league at the bar I used to bartend at, and so straight out of rehab, I started going there and I would make it through that night sober and I would consider that an accomplishment.

Tim Phillips:

But Friday, saturday, all the way up till that Sunday, aa meeting like I craved alcohol, like just absolutely insane, like it was hard, some of the hardest, and then Sunday had reset and then I'd start that cycle again on Thursday. So even though you could go to a situation make it through, that doesn't mean it doesn't have consequences, because it was like early in sobriety, being exposed to not only alcohol but my old environment and all my old friends, like that just was not good and I survived that. But like after like three times, I finally admitted to someone what I was doing, because I knew everybody would judge me for it. So I do it in secret. And they told me like well, just try, like, just try for a month, not going and see if your weekends get better. And sure enough, they did yeah, yeah, yeah, there's there's.

Courtney Andersen:

There's certain situations you do have to ease back into. I am I am a firm believer. Like those first 30 days, take a backseat to your social life, really get comfortable with yourself, but slowly. That's why I say in that first year you have to start exposing yourself to going back to the avoidance. The avoidance isn't doing you any favors in the long term.

Tim Phillips:

Yeah.

Courtney Andersen:

It's just not, because then stuff you could have worked through that first year or two. You're now working at year five, six, seven, eight, yeah, and going through heightened anxiety when sometimes you just got to rip off the Band-Aids with some stuff and just put yourself through it. I had a friend too. He wouldn't go and eat at restaurants that served alcohol. But it's like how long is that going to work for somebody? Because all of these restaurants don't serve alcohol.

Tim Phillips:

Yeah, I mean, if you even go to Chipotle, like places you would think was safe you go to Chipotle, they serve beer, so I mean you really can't avoid it.

Courtney Andersen:

So what would be three tips that you would give to somebody on working through avoidance in their sobriety?

Tim Phillips:

Through avoidance. I would say one you have to face your fear At some point, you have to look at it and you have to see what it's rooted in. So I mean, most time it's afraid of drinking, but but it's not. For me it wasn't just afraid of drinking Like I was afraid of judgment if I said no to a drink, so it would. So you have to look at all of your fears so you could best be prepared going into it. So, like, if you're, if you're worried about like, saying no to a drink when you're offered like and a lot of people give you excuses to use and I'm not a big fan of that because I tried those for years so I would say someone had offered me a drink and I'd say, oh, I have something to do in the morning, and then they'd say what are you doing in the morning? Now I had to say another lie and so, like it was that same behavior of having to lie, to cover up a lie, to cover up a lie, and then you have to keep track of all those lies and you're already in a heightened anxiety setting and, like, keeping track of lies makes it worse. So I mean for me, I just thought no, thank you, I don't drink. Like that's, that's scary to say Right, but like building confidence is doing scary things and realizing you're not going to say Right. But like building confidence is doing scary things and realizing you're not going to die Right. And so my experience like that works the best. So it's looking at everything that you're afraid of in that situation.

Tim Phillips:

Tip number two don't do it without support, like, because and it could be someone coming with you if it's the type of situation where it makes sense to bring a friend with you it could be someone on call that where you say, hey look, I'm going to go do this, please keep your ringer on to be ready, just in case I need some other support. Or it could just be telling people what you're going to go do, because that creates a different level of an accountability. And like, if you're at that moment where you're like, oh, this is getting a little hard, I don't know Like, but you have that other level of accountability, knowing you got four people that's going to ask you how it went, like that a lot of times, could just reset your brain a little bit. And then the last thing don't wait until you're ready, because you're never going to be ready. Yeah, like facing a fear, like you can't. Like I'm a huge proponent of self-help books.

Tim Phillips:

I've read hundreds of them. Like I love reading. But like self-help books are great on giving you tools, but you don't actually build confidence from reading a book. You don't do it from doing affirmations, like those things help you get ready to do something, but the only way you build confidence is by doing it. So at some point you got to face the fear and you got to walk through it. My therapist now. She always tells me the only way is through and not around.

Tim Phillips:

Like you can't avoid this.

Courtney Andersen:

Right, well, and then again, that's just building up the self-esteem and and your self-confidence and that and that you're the fact that you are, because a lot of people too, it's like, well, I'm only day 60 of being sober, right, and saying the only and I like to take out that word only and say no, I'm on day 60. I haven't drank in 60 days. Haven't drank in 60 days Because you also too, with the self-talk and self-empowering of yourself, is going to give you more confidence as well than to be able to go to go bowling, go to a restaurant. Maybe for some people it is going back to bartending because they want to take their career in a different direction and build up their own business, right. Or it is it's like, okay, different direction and build up their own business right, like so. Or it is it's like okay, getting on an airplane and flying. I think it's great when people do the exposure to flying very early on, because that is a big bandaid that you need to rip off.

Tim Phillips:

So I way back in the days. I had a friend in my house in my 20s so I was afraid of flying. And he had an opportunity for a job where he's going to travel a lot. So he was like, hey, I need to face my fear of flying. And he looked at me and he goes do you want to go skydiving with me?

Courtney Andersen:

oh my god, did you do it like oh yeah, first time ever went skydiving.

Tim Phillips:

But this guy he was like, hey, if I could, the first time I fly he'd never been in a plane. If the first time I fly I jump, jump out of it and I live, he's like getting on a commercial plane is going to be no problem. Now I'm not saying like applied to sobriety. Like the first time you expose yourself to therapy, don't go I mean to alcohol. Don't go to a rave. Like I'm not saying to do that, but just kind of the exposure therapy.

Courtney Andersen:

How was skydiving?

Tim Phillips:

I loved it.

Courtney Andersen:

I've been a bunch of times have you. Yeah, I would like to go and I want to take my sister with me, because we both don't like. We don't like that, but I want to do it with her, all right? Well, tim, this has been a great conversation. I appreciate you coming on and sharing. Where can the good people of the world find you?

Tim Phillips:

So I do have a podcast. Coincidentally, the last episode that dropped is about building your confidence and sobriety. That dropped this morning in February, when we're recording this. It's called the Sober and Happy Podcast, so look that up anywhere you watch your podcast. I have a website, soberandhappycom. You can find me on social media. It's at I am sober and happycom. You can find me on social media. It's at I am sober and happy.

Courtney Andersen:

Okay, cool, and I will link all of 10 information in the show notes below so you can find him. Find him like that. Well, thank you. I appreciate that you coming on today and sharing with me your story.

Tim Phillips:

And I appreciate you having me on. I love talking to you.

Courtney Andersen:

All right, thanks, tim.

People on this episode

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Courtney Andersen

Host
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Kimberly Elledge

Co-host